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Dear Boomers,

By hrhjuliet   2014 Apr 25, 6:27am   3 links   30,248 views   103 comments   watch (4)   quote      

I was wondering if everyone over forty could please stop calling exorbitant home prices a "recovery," or hailing prices as "stabilized" only when prices are almost as high as the year that brought us the bubble burst. Since most of you over forty bought your home when a median home was twice the median income, I find your euphemisms patronizing, at best they reek of propaganda or spin doctors at play.

Great, most boomers feel house rich and secure, and those of you in California with Prop 13 feel like you won a lotto. I'm happy for you, truly, but if you get pleasure from this feeling of security than maybe you will understand my plea for understanding.

I know you all worked hard, but we have too. Consider that we are not only expected to pay for a median home with three or four times the median income, but closer to six times in most areas and in the Bay Area ten times that. If someone under forty owns a home they are probably in the 1%, received money or an inheritance from family, or they got into a loan that could possibly make debt slaves of them, or cost them the loss of the home and their savings. There are a few people under forty who owe home ownership to anything but the above three scenarios, and when we hear about the few who didn't follow the above it feels like hearing about a unicorn sighting.

Also, consider that statistics show that a the majority of boomers over 55 bought their home with ONE income. No one under forty can do that without being in the 1% or family money. We also have far higher student loan debt. We are also not expected to receive a pension in most jobs and unions are being outlawed, along with our other civil liberties, so we have few ways to fight back. There is talk that we will not receive social security. We also inherit a trillion dollar debt, that is mostly to China; an evil communist/plutocracy and a private bank (called the Federal Reserve) which is the very institution helping the demise of the middle-class and turning our republic into an oligarchy. We are also going to have to do something with the landfills, pollution and general environmental destruction we are left to clean up.

We are humans just like you. We want the same things: security, safe living spaces, a living wage for work, a quality education, real food, clean water and air.

The middle-class is dying, and this practice of exorbitant home prices is shoving the middle-class right out the door. The middle-class in America is going to die with the boomers if we don't make changes.

All I am asking is that people take responsibility and simply admit that the housing "recovery" is for the boomers, the mega rich, real estate agents and foriegners. Admit that's what you mean by "recovery" and admit we have it tough. Go ahead keep up your "grab all" living, I am not asking you give up your high standard of living in sacrifice for the next two or three undeserving generations, all I ask, with a heartfelt plea, is that you admit people under forty have it rough, give us some credit, and stop using the term recovery or stabilized.

Sincerely,
Someone who cares about the future

#housing

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64   dublin hillz   2014 Apr 28, 3:23am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

The conditioning for high rent/buy in SFBA starts in college - there are students living off campus sharing a 2 bd apt going for $2500 per month. 4 people splitting it at $625 per head start believing that this type of "living" is normal so when they graduate and find that in regular cities (not college towns) they can get a much more luxurious apartment for that price it cements this belief.

65   dublin hillz   2014 Apr 28, 3:42am     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

dublin hillz says



The conditioning for high rent/buy in SFBA starts in college


I guess what they are NOT teaching in college there is critical thinking and math skills... Maybe Economics should be a mandatory course???

The students don't feel it cause their parents are often paying for it or they are getting student loans which when they are 18-22 may feel like free found money. And in cities like berkeley with artificially restricted supply (and hence higher rents for new residents) due to rent control, the housing is often old and poorly maintained, yet students put up with it because they want to live close to campus.

66   russell   2014 Apr 28, 4:34am     ↑ like (5)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Every generation has challenges - boomers dealt with the draft, overt racism, homophobia etc... I could tell you stories of what I've personally been through that thankfully rarely occur today. My advice for my kids is basically what I've lived by myself: play the cards you've been dealt to the best of your ability and try to stay positive. As you think, so shall it be. If you think you can't, then you can't etc...; I came from a background of poverty and drug addiction and found that life is what you make it. I think most of what happens in life is basically neutral - we make events and circumstances positive or negative based on whatever spin we put on it. Often times I've been told by friends and relatives that some event that seemed like a catastrophe ended up being a blessing in disguise. For every perceived disadvantage your generation has there are innumerable advantages undreamed of by older generations. Overall life keeps getting better for all people - although progress is uneven and it seems like two steps forward and one step back. Even little things such as the fact that when I started my first engineering job (in SF) I came home from work reeking of cigarette smoke b/c several people in the office smoked. It was unhealthy and disgusting and today people throughout the country and in much of the world take it for granted that they don't have to deal with that. It's a little thing but it's an example of the progress we've made. My kids can't believe the kind of racist, homophobic, misogynist statements that were routine in the workplace (in SF!) and I'm in my mid 50s. The truth is you can have the life you desire and it is more possible now than it ever was.

67   hrhjuliet   2014 Apr 28, 5:59pm     ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Strategist says

And pretty much every corporation on the planet. You would have to live the Amish lifestyle.

Even my iphone is made in China, anyone who tries to take it away from me faces severe bodily harm. If we buy cheap low margin toys from China, and they use the money to buy expensive high margin Boeing jets and Disneyland tickets, we both end up being better off.

hrhjuliet says

Use less oil. Drive your car less.

I'll give everyone a little hint - PRIUS.

hrhjuliet says

Or are you all too comfortable and chicken?

Honestly, I don't know how I could do it in this day and age. I'm chicken.

I don't buy made in China, and I do not live an Amish lifestyle, not at all. Not boycott all corporations, just the few proven to have been a part of huge human rights violations. I can not feel comfortable buying anything from companies that make Nazi's look thoughtful and kind. I'm not supporting their evil doing. Everyone cries "I have to buy it because I am so poor" well if you are truly poor you wouldn't be buying a bunch of non-necessities in the first place.

Prius? Hybrid batteries are toxic to be mined and dangerously toxic on impact, and not easily disposed of. Better than an SUV, but not the solution.

Why support evil groups? Just because they have cheaper goods? Then we deserve an oligarchy and to be the generation that watches our Constitutional Republic die. We are self-entitled, apathetic and lazy. Well, at least our government is doing one job right: representative democracy. Our government and politicians are a perfect reflection of the general population.

68   hrhjuliet   2014 Apr 30, 1:30am     ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

p>russell says

My kids can't believe the kind of racist, homophobic, misogynist statements that were routine in the workplace (in SF!) and I'm in my mid 50s. The truth is you can have the life you desire and it is more possible now than it ever was

I'm glad we have progressed socially, but that does not mean that it's easier now, or that there is more opportunity. Happily, there are more opportunities for marginalized people, but now the marginalized is whole generation and the entire middle-class. The truth is the middle-class is dying and our country is now an oligarchy, and we the people don't do something to change this historical pattern towards civil war or totalitarianism now, then your grandkids will not only live in an environmental disaster, they will be serfs.

69   TwoScoopsMcGee   2014 May 1, 1:25am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

I understand where you're coming from however what you need to realize is that 1946-1980 America was an anomaly created by desperation from the Great Depression resulting in highly progressive taxes and heavy government involvement in the economy. This is not how most people in history have lived their lives.

This. Oh, this.

1946-1980 was driven by fear that if the American Consumer didn't Consume, we'd be back in the Great Depression. Back then, we had Industrialists who had to sell their goods and their primary market was domestic. It was the Industrialists who made sure that the American Consumer was well off.

It is no accident that now that we no longer manufacture, these policies have been nixed.

70   jazz_music   2014 May 1, 9:49am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

thunderlips11 says

if the American Consumer didn't Consume, we'd be back in the Great Depression.

Right, with very few jobs and widespread poverty creeping as it is now.

thunderlips11 says

It was the Industrialists who made sure that the American Consumer was well off.

That is because the industrialists, and all monied interests, have ways of getting their wants met, and even coddled, by monetary political contributions, lobbying and offering post-officio opportunities/luxuries to accommodative officials. This is unlike the people who actually have the right of ownership of their government, but are somehow either scared or distracted away from using that right TO DRIVE THEIR GOVERNMENT to the popular agenda. The people's rights of ownership are not limited to merely rubber-stamping one corporate whore or the other on election day every four years.

thunderlips11 says

It is no accident that now that we no longer manufacture, these policies have been nixed.

And we no longer manufacture because the miracle of financialization decoupled the ability of money to multiply geometrically independently from the people having any money to spend. They had all the living presidents stand up on corporate conglomerate media one night a few years ago swearing why off-shoring our jobs was a good thing, if not inevitable.

I was livid, so were many people, there were protests but they weren't covered very well on TV, none of us owned a television network so ... we got shutdown pretty much like the lawsuits over George W Bush's election miscounts and voter disqualifications.

71   corntrollio   2014 May 1, 10:24am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

thunderlips11 says

It is no accident that now that we no longer manufacture, these policies have been nixed.

http://www.nam.org/Statistics-And-Data/Facts-About-Manufacturing/Landing.aspx

In 2012, manufacturers contributed $2.03 trillion to the economy, up from $1.93 trillion in 2011. This was 12.5 percent of GDP. For every $1.00 spent in manufacturing, another $1.32 is added to the economy, the highest multiplier effect of any economic sector. 1

Manufacturing supports an estimated 17.4 million jobs in the United States—about one in six private-sector jobs. More than 12 million Americans (or 9 percent of the workforce) are employed directly in manufacturing. 2

In 2012, the average manufacturing worker in the United States earned $77,505 annually, including pay and benefits. The average worker in all industries earned $62,063. 3

The footnotes are because they provided cites to stats.

72   jazz_music   2014 May 1, 10:58am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

NAM is the National Association of Manufacturers, a political lobby. It would take hours of research to comment on the veracity or the significance of the sketchy facts presented which are all labeled "Did You Know..." and I don't know what to make of them. It seems that they are meant to make the reader feel that all is well and that manufacturing as a thing is a very important thing.

They seem to be saying there is plenty of manufacturing going on, contributing lots to the economy, 12.5% GDP, $77k average in 2012.

Sounds impressive, but footnotes? Not really, not only are the facts offered with no context, but the source data is buried very very deeply. One of the links is a long list of articles by CES such as:
Next Releases: The Employment Situation for April 2014 is scheduled to be released on May 2, 2014, at 8:30 A.M. Eastern Time.
Real Earnings for April 2014 is scheduled to be released on May 15, 2014, at 8:30 A.M. Eastern Time.
On This Page
CES News Releases
CES Tables and Charts
CES Databases
CES Technical Notes

CES Publications
CES FAQs
CES Special Notices
CES Related Links
Contact CES

"Footnote" 2 is to the homepage of the Bureau Of Economic Analysis.

"Footnote" 4 NAM calculations based on data from the United Nations, Bureau of Labor Statistics, and the International Labour Organization.
"Footnote" 5 National Science Foundation (2008).
"Footnote" 6 Bureau of Economic Analysis, Industry Economic Accounts (2012) and International Monetary Fund (2012).

73   rufita11   2014 May 1, 11:11am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

I blocked a bunch of people, so I'm not sure if anyone already told you that anyone over 50 is considered a Boomer this year. People in there forties are part of Gen X.

74   swebb   2014 May 1, 1:32pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

hrhjuliet says

There are a few people under forty who owe home ownership to anything but the above three scenarios, and when we hear about the few who didn't follow the above it feels like hearing about a unicorn sighting.

Also, consider that statistics show that a the majority of boomers over 55 bought their home with ONE income. No one under forty can do that without being in the 1% or family money.

If you are talking Bay Area...you may not be far off the mark, but in more normal parts of the country what you are saying doesn't hold.

I "own" a home, am under 40 and it's not because of one of the 3 reasons you listed. Being in the 1% actually requires a fairly hefty income - you can make many times more than the median and not be in the 1%.

In Denver I was able to buy a modest house in a good area without going above the 3X multiple...If I lived in the Bay Area again, I couldn't touch anything worth buying. It sucks, but if you want to buy a house, it's probably time to GTFO. Denver is nice.

75   iwog   2014 May 1, 1:46pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

rufita11 says

I blocked a bunch of people, so I'm not sure if anyone already told you that anyone over 50 is considered a Boomer this year. People in there forties are part of Gen X.

Don't forget tweeners.

76   Fucking White Male   2014 May 1, 2:01pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

#1 Lots of boomers avoided the draft. Lots. And then they shit on the dudes who actually did get drafted. The only challenge most boomers had in the late 60's/early 70's is to figure out how big of an asshole they could be to dudes who got stuck fighting a shitty battle initiated by that fuck LBJ.

#2 Homos stayed in the closet. So fucking be it. Suck a dick behind closed doors rather than hold hands in public like a couple tinkerbells. Its less than 5% of the population. Hardly amounts to miserable life for most.

#3 Racism sucks no doubt. Thats a battle that was going to be won sooner or later though. Its no thanks to the boomers though...Blacks in the Army started that fight in WWII and Jackie Robinson along with a lot of other courageous, talented, and intelligent black baseball players won over more of America than any boomer ever did.

77   hrhjuliet   2015 Feb 20, 11:22am     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

I have never voted Republican, so I guess I get complaining rights. :-)
Yes, I am complaining, and maybe I forfeit my right to complain in your opinion because I have hardly ever voted for a Democrat either.

What I really want is a revolution. I want to see less apathy and a lot more complaining, and even more action behind the complaining.

78   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Feb 20, 12:21pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

The coming 10-15 yrs will see an implicit confrontation between millennials and boomers, with 2 key battlegrounds:
- Do we build enough housing for millennials?
- Do we use 'helicopter money' to compensate for boomers shrinking consumption?
Logically we should go from "boomers dominate" to "millennials dominate".

Housing policies resulting in high prices will become unpopular as time goes by.

79   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Feb 20, 12:23pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

I'm ready.... Let's Do This!!!!!

*

I'm guessing palming a metallic phallic object reassures you.
It won't help you.

80   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Feb 20, 1:08pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

The weak ones always get eaten first, and you're real close to the front of the line....

Hey, but you're the one who is compensating :-)

81   lahossain   2015 Feb 20, 1:27pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Hey Juliet,

Seriously, I too want more action behind the complaining, starting with me. But quite honestly, where to begin?

I tried moveon and found it disappointingly candidate endorsement focussed and reliant on media pranks that were so ragtag that they were embarrassing. Also, age seemed very boomer oriented. Representus is another that Id like to try but so far low critical mass in the bay area.

By the time that I spend all that time trying to make meaningful impact on government, I begin to just want to roll all that time into my own family and say to hell with the other. Revolutionizing at the moment seems too lonely! :)

Not giving up, merely sharing my frustration.

82   Heraclitusstudent   2015 Feb 20, 2:19pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Call it Crazy says

Not even close, just making sure I'm at the END of the line....

That's the point: Idiots like you sit on their guns and their truckloads of ammo feeling reassured that nothing can happen to them.

They typically get robbed blind by a statistician on the other side of the country, or a bankster that never got within range.

So, no, you're not at the end of the line. Not even close.

83   hrhjuliet   2015 Feb 20, 2:34pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

lahossain says

By the time that I spend all that time trying to make meaningful impact on government, I begin to just want to roll all that time into my own family and say to hell with the other. Revolutionizing at the moment seems too lonely! :)

Not giving up, merely sharing my frustration.

This is exactly what happened to my husband and me this morning. We had all these great ideas for change and were reading all these great ideas and then became frustrated and tired. Next thing you know we are planning to go have dinner at the Hay Market, make candels with the boys and tune out the world. So I completly get it. It is frustrating. We are like Jon Stewart said, "..not the Silent Majority as much as the Busy Majority or the Depressed Majority."

It's hard to be proactive when it feels like 95% of the population could care less if we become a plutocracy police state. Plus both parents working, sometimes two jobs, and all our money going to a mortgage or rent, some days it's hard to have any steam. I hear you. It's actually helpful to know we are not alone with our readiness to revolt conflicted with our readiness to go back to bed.

84   Robert Sproul   2015 Feb 20, 4:25pm     ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike   quote    

“The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.”
― Frank Zappa

85   Strategist   2015 Feb 20, 7:10pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

hrhjuliet says

It's hard to be proactive when it feels like 95% of the population could care less if we become a plutocracy police state.

100% of the people would care if it was true. The 5% you mention are misinformed, and have no solution even if they were right.
Hey, we missed you.

86   jazz_music   2015 Feb 20, 10:24pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Heraclitusstudent says

get robbed blind by a statistician on the other side of the country, or a bankster that never got within range.

Or the sheep are continually getting picked clean and exploited for the cost of their weapons cache as a result of fear mongering thanks to lobbies such as the NRA.

Their pointless arsenal is just one more reason for the government to keep a closer tab on them and to unleash mayhem on them when something actually does happen.

87   Ceffer   2015 Feb 20, 10:58pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Stop whining. That's why God invented basements.

88   Tenpoundbass   2015 Feb 21, 8:01am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

hrhjuliet says

Since most of you over forty bought your home when a median home was twice the median income, I find your euphemisms patronizing, at best they reek of propaganda or spin doctors at play.

That crap got 13 likes?!

No I bought after waiting 11 long years and renting at the same fucking place... While the Liberals were touting and justifying high RE prices because of the "GOOD SCHOOL" districts. I bought my house after the crash. And I keep my income over twice your median income, because I work extra hard on my own fucking time to stay relevant in the field I chose to work in.

The more I read pathetic whinny crap like this, the more I'm convinced I'll stay relevant in any field I chose to work in. Because any suitable youthful replacements are too fucking busy whining about my abilities to do so, rather than honing in on their own professional chops to overtake my position.

Keep on whining Blueboy, my future depends on it.

89   Bellingham Bill   2015 Feb 21, 10:18am     ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Don't forget tweeners.

If the baby boom was '46 to '64, and the echoers are '82 to '00, that makes Gen X slot in to '64 to '82.

I was 23 when the Time Magazine cover story on "twenty somethings" aka Gen X came out.

is births by year. 1965 was the first year births fell below 4,000,000

1990-1991 was peak boomer echo so putting Gen Y at 1991 +/ 9 years would cover them well

So the Median Boomer was born in '55 and is turning 60 this year.
The Median Gen Xer was born in '73 and is 42
The Median Gen Yer was born in '91 and is 24

Going with these divisions, as of 2013 population by Generation was:

71.4M Boomers still around
74.3M Gen X
78.3M Gen Y
72.6M Gen Z (2000-2018), if we continue to get ~4M births per year through 2017

Going by decades, as of 2013:

Age 0-9: 40.4M

10-19: 41.8M

20-29: 44.4M

30-39: 40.9M

40-49: 42.1M

50-59: 43.8M

60-69: 32.7M

70-79: 18.3M

Age 80+: 31.2M

90   Bellingham Bill   2015 Feb 21, 10:23am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

population by year:

(I had no idea the baby boom discontinuity was so great!)

91   Blurtman   2015 Feb 21, 12:20pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

hrhjuliet says

t's hard to be proactive when it feels like 95% of the population could care less if we become a plutocracy police state. Plus both parents working, sometimes two jobs, and all our money going to a mortgage or rent, some days it's hard to have any steam. I hear you. It's actually helpful to know we are not alone with our readiness to revolt conflicted with our readiness to go back to bed.

Quit voting for Dems and Repubs.

92   ttsmyf   2015 Feb 21, 12:55pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

EVERYBODY JUST DO THIS!

Stop whoring for Wall Street.
http://www.showrealhist.com/yTRIAL.html
http://patrick.net/?p=1223928

93   Bellingham Bill   2015 Feb 21, 1:12pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

Blurtman says

Quit voting for Dems and Repubs.

Do this if you'd vote conservative. Otherwise, only do this if you don't mind the conservatives winning office for a while, more than they are now at any rate.

94   Blurtman   2015 Feb 21, 1:36pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Bellingham Bill says

Do this if you'd vote conservative. Otherwise, only do this if you don't mind the conservatives winning office for a while, more than they are now at any rate.

Fear of the other getting in is how the game is propagated. Refuse to play.

95   Bellingham Bill   2015 Feb 21, 3:36pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Blurtman says

Refuse to play.

Sure. Refuse to play if you're conservative. Split the conservative vote six ways for all I care.

However, if you're not conservative, don't be an idiot like the 500-odd Nader voters in Florida who played their critical part in swinging the national election to Bush in 2000.

I'm sure out of the 97,488 Nader / LaDuke voters we can find 500+ who'd want to go back in time and change their vote to Gore now.

That's the essence of stupidity, regretting the real-world consequences of one's action or inaction.

And elections certainly have real-world consequences!

Like I said, protest voting for a third party that isn't going to win is perfectly reasonable if one actually doesn't mind the "greater evil" -- your typical Bush, Romney, Walker etc -- winning the seat.

96   Reality   2015 Feb 21, 3:40pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

LOL, how would a Gore presidency have been different? He was also inclined to invade Iraq in 2003, just like all the big shot Democrats at that time. If there was any false hope wishful thinking in 2008 for Gore victory 8 years earlier, the nearly 7 years of Obama presidency should have cured you of that affliction.

97   Rin   2015 Feb 21, 3:45pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

hrhjuliet says

It's hard to be proactive when it feels like 95% of the population could care less if we become a plutocracy police state. Plus both parents working, sometimes two jobs, and all our money going to a mortgage or rent, some days it's hard to have any steam. I hear you. It's actually helpful to know we are not alone with our readiness to revolt conflicted with our readiness to go back to bed.

Just wait till 2025, when automation of more than half the work out there starts to steamroll. And then, neither parents will have any sort of career stability.

98   Blurtman   2015 Feb 21, 6:16pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Bellingham Bill says

However, if you're not conservative, don't be an idiot like the 500-odd Nader voters in Florida who played their critical part in swinging the national election to Bush in 2000

Don't be a whiner who blames folks who voted their conscience for your candidate's inability to get elected. The dominant two party system has got to go.

99   Bellingham Bill   2015 Feb 21, 6:49pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Blurtman says

Don't be a whiner

personalizing this like you do above -- playing the man and not the ball -- is what happens when people run out of support for their argument.

My point about Gore in 2000 could equally apply to the 20M Perot voters in 1992, if 25% of them had preferred GHWB remain in the WH instead of Clinton taking over for the rest of the 90s.

The dominant two party system has got to go.

Not really. Politics can be divided into two general camps on every issue -- progressive and conservative.

Progressives want more government intervention in the Holy Market, more forcible redistribution from rich to poor, more personal freedom from top-down behavioral control (pro birth control, pro-choice, pro-marriage equality, pro-recreational drug use, freedom from forcible religious indoctrination, etc), less militarism and overseas military adventures, greater respect and protection for the natural environment, more secularism and just less ideological bullshit overall.

While conservatives want more bullshit -- more military waste, less government interference in how businesses operate, more 19th century social conservatism, more defense of the wealthy from the tax exactions of government, more religious bullshit in the public square, etc. etc.

We could have 535 parties but the polarity of our political discussion wouldn't change a whit in any majoritarian system. Two coalitions form, the majority and the minority.

Nothing much would change if we had more parties -- where the population splits on the issues will determine the policy.

We're just a really divided polity now. There are splits among social and economic axes -- the GOP right has a pro-business typology that is much more socially progressive than their idiot bible-thumper contingent, while the Dems have a sizable urban black protestant / R.C. Hispanic contingent that is much more socially conservative than the across-the-board liberal base. But overall people chose their side that is closest overall to their preference.

All this also doesn't get into the issue that our current electoral system isn't even structured to functionally support a multiparty system, in that it is designed to filter out the minority positions.

Protest-Voting third party -- effectively throwing your vote away -- sure as hell isn't going to change that!

100   Blurtman   2015 Feb 21, 7:47pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Bellingham Bill says

Protest-Voting third party -- effectively throwing your vote away -- sure as hell isn't going to change that!

Americans can vote for who they want to vote for. It is none of your business. If you don't like it, too bad. Multi-party systems can work. Now, we have a Republican party beholden to the financial industry and a Democrat party beholden to financial industry. Time to break the mold.

101   mell   2015 Feb 21, 8:43pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Blurtman says

Bellingham Bill says

Protest-Voting third party -- effectively throwing your vote away -- sure as hell isn't going to change that!

Americans can vote for who they want to vote for. It is none of your business. If you don't like it, too bad. Multi-party systems can work. Now, we have a Republican party beholden to the financial industry and a Democrat party beholden to financial industry. Time to break the mold.

Agreed - it's about time for a second party.

102   Reality   2015 Feb 21, 8:46pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Bellingham Bill says

Progressives want more government intervention in the Holy Market, more forcible redistribution from rich to poor, more personal freedom from top-down behavioral control (pro birth control, pro-choice, pro-marriage equality, pro-recreational drug use, freedom from forcible religious indoctrination, etc), less militarism and overseas military adventures, greater respect and protection for the natural environment, more secularism and just less ideological bullshit overall.

What personal freedom is left if one is not allowed to make individual choices, as in a free market place. Religion is irrelevant if everyone is brainwashed into believing the BGASG: Big-Government as Savior God. It's the same bullshit as Stalinist and Maoist religion: replacing existing religious faith with personality cult and government worship.

While conservatives want more bullshit -- more military waste, less government interference in how businesses operate, more 19th century social conservatism, more defense of the wealthy from the tax exactions of government, more religious bullshit in the public square, etc. etc.

19th century was a much more liberal and pleasant place for the world than the 20th century was. Disparate religious practices among the population is a strong antidote against the rise of the far more destructive government-worship. Even the sharia regimes can not hold a candle compared to the genocidal socialist regimes of the 20th century.

103   mell   2015 Feb 21, 9:00pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Bellingham Bill says

Progressives want more government intervention in the Holy Market, more forcible redistribution from rich to poor, more personal freedom from top-down behavioral control (pro birth control, pro-choice, pro-marriage equality, pro-recreational drug use, freedom from forcible religious indoctrination, etc), less militarism and overseas military adventures, greater respect and protection for the natural environment, more secularism and just less ideological bullshit overall.

Absolutely not. Less militarism is a Libertarian trait, so has been advocating legalizing recreational drug use. In fact the Obama administration raided far far more weed dispensaries than Bush who left the states mostly alone. Also progressives depend on the heavy use of force inside their own country to push through their agenda of cultural marxism which is far more dangerous than any conservative fringe group could ever be.

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