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Endgame of Paper Economies

By NuttBoxer   2016 Apr 26, 12:29pm   3 links   12,128 views   85 comments   watch (2)   quote      

#investing #economics

Interview with former central banker who worked at the Fed, IMF, and Citibank. Good reality check that stands in contrasts to the paper economists proclaiming their assets will never lose value, and prices will rise ad infinitum.

http://the-moneychanger.com/articles/simplex_munditis

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46   jazz_music   2016 Apr 28, 11:55am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Yeah those stupid foreclosure auctions they advertise on TV are for suckers. They are run from a group of hustlers from Utah similarly to those famous Work-At -Home Seminars.

I believe it was REDC Auctions.

They have this lunatic guy roving at a fast pace up and down and all across the aisles looking for good marks (sucker) in the audience then they focus on pushing those guy's buttons by yelling and whooping to increase the chatter while the auctioneer tries to drive up bids. HEYYY HOOOOO WOOP. OH YEAH. Then we saw these high pressure sales booths after the auctions like you see at car dealers where they really heap the added stress on you to sign this and that and deposit "earnest money" etc.

The house we wanted was a like a 1980's vintage fixer in inland Huntington Beach, next to a big shopping center and high school with swimming pool issues and more. We found out they sold it for like $680,000 and those people, an asian family, did not keep it for very long and it's hard to imagine them breaking even at all on this deal. I think they got reamed. The house was a real heartbreaker.

zzyzzx says

this is typical

47   blowmeironvagina   2016 Apr 28, 12:08pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

zzyzzx says

and a 2010 courthouse steps auction in Ventura and found it uninteresting and rigged for local insiders who must have made a prior deal with the bank.

utter bullshit. How the hell is an auction rigged? they call out the property, people bid until the final offer. I've been involved in the process several times.

you have to pay cash in 24 hours, at least here, and if you make a mistake and the house is a wreck, too bad so sad. So, it isn't for the faint of heart.

but to claim it is rigged is just moronic.

48   blowmeironvagina   2016 Apr 28, 12:27pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

bgamall4 says

Everyone has a God given right to walk away from a toxic loan, and the Fed made those houses underwater by crushing the NGDP. So, people have the right to walk away if you understood a thimble full of economics.

nobody talking about loans, crazyone. the OP was refusing to move out of his rental after being given legal notice. Do I have the right to just stay in a hotel a few more days cause I don't feel like leaving?

49   jazz_music   2016 Apr 28, 5:48pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

blowmeironvagina will not see this, I decided I don't like him, and ignored him.

Now if there are any questions this is what we saw: the desired house auction was rigged in this instance by manipulating all bidders with announcements doubts about this house was going to be released for auction or not, to give up and go home. After 5PM or so the bank releases the auction for bid to the only party who remained and the party was a successful local contractor. They made an exceptionally low bid, it was accepted, any number of people would have bid better that day. There were other sophisticated bidders attending up to about 4 PM or so. We were one of the last to leave.

It looks to me that the successful bidder kicked something back to the bank or some one in the chain on the bank's side.

We wanted the house in Thousand Oaks and walked the dog by it every day. The contractor flipped it at better than 100% mark up.

We also saw that the city's code enforcement officer exploiting vulnerable homeowners by pressing city code violations, having residents removed, buying their houses and flipping them. He reportedly had quite a reputation as a municipal terrorist/officer. The next door neighbor was physically removed from her residence and while she was in custody she lost her house. She was mentally ill under custodianship to a sibling who lived pretty far away.

Believe it, uppity little cities like Thousand Oaks can be real shit holes of corruption too, not just the police, prosecutors and courts.

50   iwog   2016 Apr 28, 5:59pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

I was bidding for foreclosed properties on the courthouse steps in the middle of an actual corruption ring that landed a bunch of people in jail. I knew many of the parties involved. I was asked to join for the price of $5000 which I declined and resulted in at least one revenge bidding war which cost me $10,000. I also believe my former realtor was involved since he tipped some guilty parties as to my intentions but I can't prove it.

Here is the actual case:

http://claycord.com/2011/09/30/local-investors-agree-to-plead-guilty-to-bid-rigging-at-foreclosure-auctions/

Even in this environment I made a killing.

51   Strategist   2016 Apr 28, 6:13pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

bgamall4 says

blowmeironvagina says

showing your kids that NOT living up to your legal agreements is good

Everyone has a God given right to walk away from a toxic loan, and the Fed made those houses underwater by crushing the NGDP. So, people have the right to walk away if you understood a thimble full of economics.

Yeah right. Why did they take that loan in the first place? (They were greedy) If things work out as planned, you are a genius. If they don't, it's a toxic loan and you have a right to walk away from it.
As a taxpayer, I had to pick up the tab.

52   Strategist   2016 Apr 28, 7:22pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

bgamall4 says

So, point is, Strategist, there was not full disclosure that the government and the private central bank had no plans to sustain the housing bubble. That is fraud in my book. The Zionist Fed will face the judgement at the end of time. It won't be pretty.

You want the Fed to disclose prices would collapse. LOL

53   iwog   2016 Apr 28, 10:24pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

bgamall4 says

I want the Fed to not misprice risk in the first place.

The Fed has no power to do anything of the sort. This is Fed worship of the most extreme and stupid kind.

54   blowmeironvagina   2016 Apr 28, 11:41pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

Strategist says


blowmeironvagina says

showing your kids that NOT living up to your legal agreements is good

Everyone has a God given right to walk away from a toxic loan, and the Fed made those houses underwater by crushing the NGDP. So, people have the right to walk away if you understood a thimble full of economics.

Yeah right. Why did they take that loan in the first place? (They were greedy) If things work out as planned, you are a genius. If they don't, it's a toxic loan and you have a right to walk away from it.

As a taxpayer, I had to pick up the tab.

the OP was on a LEASE. he was refusing to leave after being given notice. I've already told you this once, and yet you keep talking about loans. You mentally ill idiot, he didn't have a loan. THAT is what I called not living up to your agreements. In addition to your mental illness, you seem to have reading problems.

55   Strategist   2016 Apr 29, 6:49am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

blowmeironvagina says

As a taxpayer, I had to pick up the tab.

the OP was on a LEASE. he was refusing to leave after being given notice. I've already told you this once, and yet you keep talking about loans. You mentally ill idiot, he didn't have a loan. THAT is what I called not living up to your agreements. In addition to your mental illness, you seem to have reading problems.

Calm down blowme, I think you got the wrong man. I was merely responding to Gary's wild assertions.

56   tatupu70   2016 Apr 29, 6:51am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

bgamall4 says

Of course it does

Banks make their own decision about risk. Even if the Fed adopted Li's copula, banks were free to lend or not lend at their own discretion.

57   tatupu70   2016 Apr 29, 6:56am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

bgamall4 says

By the way, China rejected Basel 2 completely. Our politicians sold the middle class down the river by allowing Basel 2 and the Fed to misprice risk.

The Fed doesn't price risk on mortgages, banks/S&Ls do.

58   tatupu70   2016 Apr 29, 7:00am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

bgamall4 says

The Fed and Basel adopted Li's copula. Look it up.

So what? Banks don't ask the Fed if they can make a loan or not.

59   tatupu70   2016 Apr 29, 7:15am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

bgamall4 says

How do you think they were able to fund the loans? They were able to fund the loans through securitization. They could pawn the loans off to others. So, securitization worked so well because people wanted the AAA rated bonds that were the result of the securitization. Only they turned out to be bogus AAA. There weren't really AAA. Insurance companies and others would have never been able to buy them had they been rated correctly.

Of course, but all of this is possible without any Fed action on anybody's copula. Wall St., banks, and ratings companies all worked together.

60   NuttBoxer   2016 Apr 29, 9:43am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

tatupu70 says

Depressions were much more prevalent and deeper under "sound" money than now.

One example? Let me preface it by saying sound money requires zero leveraging. I.E. any paper currency must be 100% backed by specie.

61   tatupu70   2016 Apr 29, 1:01pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

bgamall4 says

No, without bogus AAA ratings, the securitization would not have happened.

I do not believe the S & P would have adopted the copula if the Fed (Basel 2) had not first approved it.

You seem to be implying that S&P actually believed their AAA ratings when they made them. If so, you're one of the few.

The ratings companies were in on the scam. They wanted the extra business and $$ and the only way to keep the gravy train running was to hand out AAA ratings.

62   iwog   2016 Apr 29, 3:56pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

NuttBoxer says

One example? Let me preface it by saying sound money requires zero leveraging. I.E. any paper currency must be 100% backed by specie.

So what you're saying is we haven't had sound money since the 17th century. Brilliant.

The invention of banks and fractional lending is what enabled the modern age. Without the ability to amplify wealth for major projects, they would simply never be accomplished. There would be no railroads, no cruise liners, no aircraft carriers, and we'd lose all the wars. How the fuck do you think we won World War 2 against the Germans who had a currency that was ENTIRELY fiat with only fake promises of real estate backing the Dmarks? Debt and lending of course.

A gold standard world is a world in smoking ruins. Debt benefits so many people in so many ways that only a return to the Dark Ages would bring on a new gold standard. Incidentally the Dark Ages was the last time all forms of debt was outlawed. It was considered a sin and those are the times you want to return to.

63   indigenous   2016 Apr 29, 5:12pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

iwog says

The invention of banks and fractional lending is what enabled the modern age. Without the ability to amplify wealth for major projects, they would simply never be accomplished. There would be no railroads, no cruise liners

Sure there would. But it would greatly enhance the savings of the savers.

iwog says

no aircraft carriers, and we'd lose all the wars.

That would be a benefit. And it would be an incentive for the politicians to quit instigating them.

iwog says

How the fuck do you think we won World War 2 against the Germans who had a currency that was ENTIRELY fiat with only fake promises of real estate backing the Dmarks? Debt and lending of course.

I thought WW2 was financed by bonds?

iwog says

Debt benefits so many people in so many ways that only a return to the Dark Ages would bring on a new gold standard.

Nonsense, and without it a paycheck became more valuable and savings appreciated just because of a slow organic healthy deflation.

As opposed to what we have today that is not healthy or organic who robs wealth from the individual.

Sorry to butt in Nutt boxer, as the Wogster and others on this thread certainly need to be boxed.

64   iwog   2016 Apr 29, 5:18pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

Sure there would. But it would greatly enhance the savings of the savers.

Bullshit. It would greatly enhance the savings of the landlords.

indigenous says

That would be a benefit. And it would be an incentive for the politicians to quit instigating them.

I'll put you on record as insisting that losing World War II to Hitler would have been a good thing. That's just as intelligent as you saying death is a way of surviving.

indigenous says

I thought WW2 was financed by bonds?

Right. Debt. You DO know that debt expands the money supply without specie right?

indigenous says

As opposed to what we have today that is not healthy or organic who robs wealth from the individual.

The greatest economic superpower in the history of the human species, the country that cured the most disease, extended the most lifespan, and brought the highest standard of living ever experienced by workers is.................."not healthy or organic".

You should grow up sometime.

65   tatupu70   2016 Apr 29, 5:18pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

iwog says

How the fuck do you think we won World War 2 against the Germans who had a currency that was ENTIRELY fiat with only fake promises of real estate backing the Dmarks? Debt and lending of course.

I thought WW2 was financed by bonds?

lol--what do you think a bond is?

66   indigenous   2016 Apr 29, 5:25pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

I'll put you on record as insisting that losing World War II to Hitler would have been a good thing. That's just as intelligent as you saying death is a way of surviving.

Reread what I posted this time for comprehension.

iwog says

Right. Debt. You DO know that debt expands the money supply without specie right?

It beats the hell out of what they are doing now.

iwog says

The greatest economic superpower in the history of the human species, the country that cured the most disease, extended the most lifespan, and brought the highest standard of living ever experienced by workers is.................."not healthy or organic".

The worldwide deflation we are seeing now IMO is the reverse effect that is created by fractional reserve banking, and the central banks are scared because it illustrates they are feckless.

67   iwog   2016 Apr 29, 5:30pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

Reread what I posted this time for comprehension.

Why don't you clarify what I got wrong instead of acting like a baby again?

indigenous says

It beats the hell out of what they are doing now.

Hardly. Are you seriously trying to claim there is good debt and bad debt now? Are you making an argument for hard money or not?

indigenous says

The worldwide deflation we are seeing now IMO is the reverse effect that is created by fractional reserve banking

That's odd because every Austrian on the fucking planet has predicted INFLATION instead of deflation. Why do you think Austrians are always wrong?

68   indigenous   2016 Apr 29, 5:40pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

iwog says

Hardly. Are you seriously trying to claim there is good debt and bad debt now? Are you making an argument for hard money or not?

Yes. a bond is a normal debt instrument, a MBS that is not marked to market is a charade all at the taxpayer's expense.

iwog says

That's odd because every Austrian on the fucking planet has predicted INFLATION instead of deflation. Why do you think Austrians are always wrong?

The price of oil at $30 dollars a barrel is deflation.

69   iwog   2016 Apr 29, 5:43pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

a MBS that is not marked to market is a charade all at the taxpayer's expense.

That's your argument??? A financial device that was misused for a few years is somehow responsible for 400 years of bad economics caused by lack of hard currency backing? You fucking MORON!

indigenous says

iwog says

That's odd because every Austrian on the fucking planet has predicted INFLATION instead of deflation. Why do you think Austrians are always wrong?

The price of oil at $30 dollars a barrel is deflation.

You didn't answer my question. I asked you why Austrians are always wrong?

70   indigenous   2016 Apr 29, 5:45pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

That's your argument??? A financial device that was misused for a few years is somehow responsible for 400 years of bad economics caused by lack of hard currency backing? You fucking MORON!

No this is my argument:

iwog says

I asked you why Austrians are iwog?

I think they don't take into account the reserve currency status and demographics.

71   iwog   2016 Apr 29, 5:53pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

No this is my argument:

You interjected into this conversation because you pissed your pants over my assertion that debt and fiat currency have been a benefit to civilization. You childishly asserted that the lack of an ability to fund wars (and therefore we would have lost WW2) was a good thing. You further stated that bonds weren't debt. Basically you put all of your stupidity on display.

So when I pressed you for some answers to your idiotic assertions regarding a 400-year history of fractional banking.........ALL you could come up with was fraudulent MBSs and 8 years of fed intervention.

Do you know what's really hilarious here? You STILL don't realize what a ridiculous fucking moron you are.

72   iwog   2016 Apr 29, 5:55pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

iwog says

no aircraft carriers, and we'd lose all the wars.

That would be a benefit.

Explain why the United States losing all wars is a benefit. I'm sure you can make a great case.

73   indigenous   2016 Apr 29, 9:09pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

iwog says

You childishly asserted that the lack of an ability to fund wars

Is a good thing as that stops the defense contractors and sociopath politicians from starting them.

iwog says

So when I pressed you for some answers to your idiotic assertions regarding a 400-year history of fractional banking.........ALL you could come up with was fraudulent MBSs and 8 years of fed intervention.

It puts a constant burden on the citizens through inflation. It also creates instability in the currency.

You will say there has been more stability since 1913, I will counter that the cost has been what you see in the chart above.

Another benefit would be the gold standard would prevent China from devaluing their currency, and Japan before them, and all the "free trade agreements" would be absolutely unnecessary.

iwog says

Do you know what's really hilarious here? You STILL don't realize what a ridiculous fucking moron you are.

I have tried to see where that is true but have only been able to uncover your stupidity, my bad I guess?

iwog says

Explain why the United States losing all wars is a benefit. I'm sure you can make a great case.

They don't get started in the first place. The wars are instigated Wilson with the Lusitania, FDR with sanctions on Japan then with the Japanese ambassadors begging for peace being turned away by FDR, the atrocities with the US bombing Japan and ending with the totally unnecessary A bombs, Kennedy's murder of Diem followed by LBJ and the Gulf of Tonkin, GWB and the weapons of mass destruction.

74   bob2356   2016 Apr 30, 5:22am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

They don't get started in the first place. The wars are instigated Wilson with the Lusitania, FDR with sanctions on Japan then with the Japanese ambassadors begging for peace being turned away by FDR, the atrocities with the US bombing Japan and ending with the totally unnecessary A bombs, Kennedy's murder of Diem followed by LBJ and the Gulf of Tonkin, GWB and the weapons of mass destruction.

I always enjoy your distorted view of history. Other than Iraq none of these wars were instigated by the US. The US could have chosen not to participate, but the wars were already ongoing.

The Lusitania was sunk a year after WWI started and 2 years before the US entered the war. Hardly in instigation.

Japan was at war for 5 years when fdr put sanctions on japan, they were in china and indochina(vietnam) already and were about to attack the dutch east indies. The begging for peace is pure bullshit. Japan insisted they be given control of all of southeast asia and continue to conquer china.

The war in vietnam was ongoing since 1946. Killing diem changed nothing other than maybe the timing. Ho Chi Min was already committed to coming in with NVA regular army by 1963 well before the coup. Kennedy didn't murder diem, the vietnamese army did. Kennedy supported the coup but believed diem would be sent into exile. Here are the details, not that you are going to read any of it or actually learn some history. http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB101/

75   indigenous   2016 Apr 30, 8:34am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

bob2356 says

The US could have chosen not to participate

Which was my point, the US MO is to instigate actions that provoke US involvement. E.G FDR knew the attack on Pearl Harbor was imminent and did nothing in order to gain support for going into the war, before Pearl Harbor 88% of the US citizens were against going into the war. BTW Churchill bombed Germany 1st and kept it out of the papers, when Germany retaliated it was reported as unprovoked.

bob2356 says

Killing diem changed nothing other than maybe the timing.

Not what I read. Are you going to defend LBJ's bullshit as well?

76   Bellingham Bill   2016 Apr 30, 6:34pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

> then with the Japanese ambassadors begging for peace being turned away by FDR,

The Japanese sent their second negotiator to the US in mid-November, about when the Japanese First Air Fleet began staging to Hokkaido in preparation for their late November sortie to Pearl Harbor.

The Japanese did not want "peace" in 1941 -- after all, Kurusu had been sent to DC by the new Prime Minister, Army General Tojo -- they wanted to continue their war in China, forcing CKS's surrender and the total subjugation of China as a client state in the Japanese New Economic Order, their East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere.

With Hitler's tanks having overrun all of Europe and looking to be in Red Square before winter, French Indochina and the Dutch East Indies were glittering prizes free for the taking -- but for the American interference in Japan's affairs here.

77   Bellingham Bill   2016 Apr 30, 7:45pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Funny thing with all the printing the Bank of Japan has been doing, I just noticed the yen has strengthened 10%:

Kurdoda's going to need a bigger printing press.

78   HEY YOU   2016 May 1, 9:28am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Print!Print!Print! paper fiat currency.
The new global paradigm.

79   indigenous   2016 May 1, 10:28am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

Exerps from a podcast about the book, "The Lost Mandate of Heaven: The American Betrayal of Ngo Dinh Diem, President of Vietnam"

So we get through the '50s, and by the end of the '50s, Vietnam has been so
miraculously recovered under Ngo Dinh Diem, along with a lot of American aid and
help, which was very good. And they actually were building schools, roads, everything,
even rudimentary healthcare in the rural districts, to the point where the communist
leadership in the North had a meeting in '59 and said, if it goes on like this, the whole
thing is going to collapse. We'll have no chance of winning back South Vietnam.
Incidentally, there had been in the Geneva Accords, the part that were signed with
the French in post-Dien Bien Phu in 1955, that by 1956 the country, which had
basically been artificially dissected as North and South Vietnam, would have elections.

It has to do with a failure in American
diplomacy, and where this starts is with Averell Harriman, a very powerful, very
influential New Dealer. I mean, he was well recognized as a man with enormous
influence in and around D.C. In fact, he had even helped JFK in his election campaign,
and therefore, even though he was becoming quite the elder statesman, they felt they
had to pay him off with something after the election, and of course they gave him his
own title of Roving Ambassador, and then eventually whatever title he wanted in the
State Department, and he had several.
But what happened was that during the Second World War, he had been FDR's righthand
man with the Soviets, procuring agreements for how things would go during the
war, which he was reasonably good at, and how Europe would look after the war,
which he was abysmally bad at, even though they all hailed him as the great
negotiator, because as we know, all the agreements for Eastern Europe, Stalin threw
into the garbage bin.
So Harriman, here was his chance to go and really leave the whole diplomatic field
with a big win. And how he saw it, looking at Southeast Asia along with JFK, who was
scared stiff of what he saw there, especially with the fact that they knew Laos was
being used by the communists, was, let's declare Laos neutral and get the Soviets —
and Averell said, I can get the Soviets to make their clients, the North Vietnamese
comply. And in a famous conversation, or infamous conversation, he had with
Ambassador Frederick Nolting, who was JFK's ambassador to Vietnam, he said, I have a
fingertip's feeling that I can get the Soviets to make the Vietnamese communists
comply with keeping Laos and in June they'll stay out of there.
And Ambassador Nolting said to him, well, I don't have your experience with the
Soviets, but my fingertips are telling me the exact opposite, and of course his
fingertips were the correct ones. The Soviets were only too happy to be given this
position of enormous prestige in the negotiations of Southeast Asia, so they said, yes,
of course, we can get them to comply. Well, there was no compliance from the North,
but Averell — and so really, the Pathet Lao, who were an NVA or North Vietnamese
construction, you know, they were a communist force in Laos, just expanded, and so
did the trail system and supply system to the South.
So what happened then was of course the Vietnamese, and even people from Thailand,
everybody in the region was squawking, you cannot make Laos neutral. Harriman had
to go out, he went out in 1961 with the new ambassador, Frederick Nolting out there,
and he started to — he had a meeting with Ngo Dinh Diem about Laotian neutrality,
because Ngo Dinh Nhu had been adamant that you couldn't have Laos neutral. That
would be surrendering South Vietnam to constant attack on its flank. He would be
constantly on the strategic defensive, and it couldn't bode well for the future.
Harriman clashed with Diem immediately. Apparently from eyewitnesses, and Nolting
was one of them, there was sort of a visceral dislike that was taken, one for the other
before they even began talking. There just was a clash of a very worldly man, Averell
Harriman, with a very unworldly man, Ngo Dinh Diem. That meeting didn't go well, at
the end with Harriman basically outright threatening Diem that if he didn't comply the
U.S. would pull away all support, and of course that would be the economic collapse
of South Vietnam — not the military collapse, but certainly the economic, which would
lead to the military collapse.
So Diem was silent on this, and basically Ambassador Nolting after that point had to
try and get South Vietnamese compliance, even though he agreed with the South
Vietnamese. And a quick note here: Nolting had been sent out by Kennedy to assure
the South Vietnamese government of their absolute support by the U.S. government
and that they would not interfere in South Vietnamese governmental practices and
that they respected their autonomy as a national government. And Nolting was
extremely good at that, even though when he had first gone out, he had been
skeptical too. He had heard these words about the background, about this prickly
Vietnamese leader who seemed a bit otherworldly and could be difficult to get along
with. But all that fell away after he met Diem, and they got along very well indeed.
And one of the pillories that you often come across on the Left is that Nolting was not
very bright, which is an absolute, outright falsehood. The man had won scholarships to
Harvard. His professor there had been none other than — oh, the famous British
mathematician and atheist, what was his name? Lord — oh, I'm sorry, I forget it now.
But anyways, he had done very well at Harvard and had done very well in philosophy
and up at the PhD level. So anyways, he was no dim ball, contrary to leftist
accusations.
So the minute that Harriman gets back to D.C., to Washington, he starts plotting
against Diem, and we have the files on that. We've got the documents. And from that
point on, he started pitching the idea of having a coup and looking for another leader,
and around him he'd built this cadre of likeminded liberal thinkers, such as John
Kenneth Galbraith — then to become ambassador of India, a bit of a star in the JFK
crowd — and Mike Forrestall and Roger Hilsman, National Security Advisor. So he'd
built a very powerful team around him.
But in effect, he didn't even need that, because his own prestige was so substantial
that, from eyewitness accounts, when they'd have White House meetings with
Kennedy, it was more like Harriman telling Kennedy what was going to happen than
Kennedy giving Harriman the instructions. In fact, Kennedy tended to bow out of the
way when Harriman came online — although he wasn't happy entirely with what he
heard from Kennedy, and as we get towards the end of Diem's government in '63, he
had Ambassador Nolting back in Washington giving him advice to the contrary.
But it was from that point forward, really, to cut to the chase for your listeners, that
the planning was underway to get rid of Diem. So it was all according to his objections
to what was going to go on in Laos. And the agreements were signed in '62 over strong
objections from the Vietnamese and from Thailand and from others in the region. And
of course the communists never honored it. In fact, they turned the Ho Chi Minh trail
into a freeway system, just about, coming down through Laos, and the supplies and
men picked up even forward, which, of course, threw South Vietnam onto this
strategic defensive. It was so much the case that men like Bill Colby and people within
the State Department who were not of the mind of Averell Harriman had a name for
the Ho Chi Minh trail, and they called it the Averell Harriman Memorial Highway.

.
BTW I don't think that Ngo Dinh Diem being assassinated within weeks of Kennedy being assassinated are coincidence. IOW the same people are likely responsible.

80   indigenous   2016 May 1, 10:43am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Major differences between the rhetoric of your article v mine. Yours reads like a propaganda piece full of generalities and cites opinion and consensus rather than facts.

81   NuttBoxer   2016 May 2, 1:30pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

iwog says

There would be no railroads

"Most business historians have assumed that the transcontinental railroads would never have been built without government subsidies. The free market would have failed to provide the adequate capital, or so the theory asserts. The evidence for this theory is that the Union Pacific and Central Pacific railroads, which were completed in the years after the War Between the States, received per-mile subsidies from the federal government in the form of low-interest loans as well as massive land grants. But there need not be cause and effect here: the subsidies were not needed to cause the transcontinental railroads to be built. We know this because, just as many roads and canals were privately financed in the early nineteenth century, a market entrepreneur built his own transcontinental railroad. James J. Hill built the Great Northern Railroad "without any government aid, even the right of way, through hundreds of miles of public lands, being paid for in cash," as Hill himself stated."

I'd guess you've never even heard of James Hill since what he did fly's in the face of your house of cards you call economics. As usual you're response is full of alarmist propaganda, and no substance...

82   NuttBoxer   2016 May 2, 1:38pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

I see Tatupu has failed to list a single incident to back up his claim of constant depressions under sound financial currency, which BTW, is the whole point of the article I posted. So to circle back around, mathematics, logic, history, experience all point to a resounding crash coming unlike the world has ever seen. At least since the invention of debt economics, and all the misery it has brought with it.

If we think about it logically, fiat currency debt systems are mostly closely tied to two human traits, arrogance, and greed. And I've never seen either produce anything positive...

83   tatupu70   2016 May 2, 2:00pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

NuttBoxer says

I see Tatupu has failed to list a single incident to back up his claim of constant depressions under sound financial currency, which BTW, is the whole point of the article I posted

Sorry--I forgot. Before I waste my time--what do you consider a period of sound financial currency? Let's not play No True Scotsman here.

84   bob2356   2016 May 3, 7:38am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

indigenous says

Exerps from a podcast about the book, "The Lost Mandate of Heaven: The American Betrayal of Ngo Dinh Diem, President of Vietnam"

The first problem is you are listening to a podcast about a book. Maybe try reading the book. I haven't, but might. Diem wasn't building roads, schools, and healthcare. Diem and his cronies were taking american aid to build and stealing it. What he was doing was pursuing his disastrous resettlement policy. Sorry but the corruption under Diem has been documented time and time again. I can come up with at least a dozen books documenting this just off my bookshelves. If shaw writes otherwise then his book is very revisionist history. Geoffry Shaw isn't exactly a neutral observer. Go read his Alexandrian Defense Chronicles stuff. Talk about neocon wet dream.

Try reading Darpa the Pentagons Brain by Anne Jacobson. It has several chapters about this period. I loaned my copy to a friend so I don't have it in my hand, but in summary darpa was contracted to do a major study of the situation vietnam in 1961 or so that lasted for months. The team consisted of people who were very knowledgeable about se asia and most spoke fluent vietnamese. They found diem was totally corrupt, lacked any support among the population, that his policies were deeply unpopular and creating a much larger opposition all the time. Especially the resettlement policy. Kennedy and the CIA hated to hear this, shelved the report and sent out another team the next year. That team had little experience in se asia and didn't speak the language, forcing them to use interpreters, but came back the the report results kennedy and the CIA liked. Every bit of this is documented, dates, places, people, papers, meeting notes, everything.

You might also try watching, since you seem to prefer watching to actually reading, the fog of war. Especially the part where mcnamara met with ho chi min and asked if there was anything that would have stopped him. Ho chi min said no we would have fought to the last man.

So I stand by my statement. Diem being killed by the coup plotters, not the killed by the CIA bullshit you keep repeating to try to make it true, made no difference in the outcome at all. The NVA was coming in no matter what, the south vietnamese government was totally incompetent and corrupt with no hope of stopping them, the people had no support for the government or the us troops. Having a catholic government in a 95% buddist country didn't help at all. Especially when Diem government brought back the landlords the viet minh had driven off years before and forced the peasants to give up the land and pay years of back rent. Which was collected by the south vietnamese army. Marylin Young in "The Vietnam Wars 1945-1990" documents that during the diem regime there was "75 percent support for the NLF, 20 percent trying to remain neutral and 5 percent firmly pro-government,". NLF is another word for vietcong. South Vietnam was going to fall no matter what, the US involvement only changed the timing by a few years.

85   NuttBoxer   2016 May 3, 5:38pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

tatupu70 says

Sorry--I forgot. Before I waste my time--what do you consider a period of sound financial currency? Let's not play No True Scotsman here.

The truest, as I already mentioned, would be when paper was targeted to be 100% backed by specie. But I'd also accept any time under the gold and/or silver standard if the first is too difficult for you. If you use the latter, please clearly demonstrate how the bust was not tied into bank speculation. For example, the bust after the Spanish American War was due to leveraging by local banks, and later the central bank, and only corrected once all speculation ceased.

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