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PatNet Improvement Suggestions

By Dan8267   Jan 28, 1:48pm   214 links   38,404 views   155 comments   watch (1)   quote      

Thread for idea submission for PatNet improvements

#patnet

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76   iwog   Jan 30, 8:25pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Just allow thread creators to delete his posts. Only him and no one else. Consider it a test run to see if it improves the site or indeed results in legitimate content being deleted.

Dan's analysis is spot on the money. People like him are going to make this site worse and chase users away.

Better yet just make me a moderator and I will personally pay for your trip to Australia if I ever delete anything that isn't 100% pure site vandalism. You've got nothing to lose doing a trial run.

77   someone else   Jan 30, 8:31pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

If you ignore him, he can't post comments on your thread anyway. That functionality already exists.

You're afraid of his alternate users posting comments? He could create an infinite number of those.

It feels wrong to let a thread owner simply delete a comment. How about putting "comment deleted" with a link to it? Then people would have to navigate away to see it. A cost which would stop a lot of people, but would not be complete censorship.

78   iwog   Jan 30, 8:32pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

It feels wrong to let a thread owner simply delete a comment. How about putting "comment deleted" with a link to it? Then people would have to navigate away to see it. A cost which would stop a lot of people, but would not be complete censorship.

Sounds good to me.

79   someone else   Jan 30, 8:38pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

just any guy says

Can we make the Sexy Picture Thread by YesYNot a sticky? This will also apply pressure for zzyzzx to continue posting such beautiful artwork.

It might get annoying to have it always there if he didn't update it after all. Hey, you can bump that thread with a picture of your own any time!

80   someone else   Jan 30, 8:39pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

How about putting "comment deleted" with a link to it?

OK, let's see if I can do that. On the list right after getting the site more resistant to shutdown by making it portable. Hopefully done with that this week.

81   just any guy   Jan 30, 8:49pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

just any guy says

Can we make the Sexy Picture Thread by YesYNot a sticky? This will also apply pressure for zzyzzx to continue posting such beautiful artwork.

It might get annoying to have it always there if he didn't update it after all. Hey, you can bump that thread with a picture of your own any time!

82   Dan8267   Jan 31, 12:29am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

2. Give users the right to delete comments on their own posts, leading to the "Facebook effect", where opinions become siloed.

This is the best option. It hurts trolls if it takes effort to get into a thread with an alt only to have their troll posts deleted. It doesn't prevent any free speech. If trolls open their own threads just to troll, they just look like idiots and advertise that they aren't worth listening to. If special snowflakes ban people and delete posts that are non-trolling opposition, they look weak and only isolate themselves. All the problems become self-correcting.

Patrick says

You're afraid of his alternate users posting comments? He could create an infinite number of those

Allowing thread authors to whitelist users and prevent users without a post history of N months and P posts from joining a thread solves this problem. There is a slight cost in losing quick access for new users, but it's worth it.

83   FP   Jan 31, 7:59am     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick, the moment a comment of mine gets deleted, "sidelined" or whatever, will the list time I post here. Just not worth my time to write something and have somebody else decide if it's worth being seen. I keep my word.

84   errc   Jan 31, 8:08am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

FP says

Patrick, the moment a comment of mine gets deleted, "sidelined" or whatever, will the list time I post here. Just not worth my time to write something and have somebody else decide if it's worth being seen. I keep my word.

Why do you so strongly support personal attacks, and the right of trolls to derail and impede free speech?

85   landtof   Jan 31, 8:10am     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

FP says

Patrick, the moment a comment of mine gets deleted, "sidelined" or whatever, will the list time I post here. Just not worth my time to write something and have somebody else decide if it's worth being seen. I keep my word.

+1

86   Dan8267   Jan 31, 8:16am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The reason why deletes are needed is that trolls will constantly us alts to repost. And trolls make other people think it's just not worth their time to write something in a forum.

PatNet had a fine mechanism where if a user's post got deleted, they would be emailed a copy of it so that they could post it in their own thread if they felt it was necessary. Even trolls used this feature extensively. The delete is effectively soft.

The point is that the troll will fail to disrupt the conversation.

87   iwog   Jan 31, 8:18am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

There's a problem with that system and that is sociopaths like Piggy will create many more threads and will delight in censoring anyone on his shit list who attempts to participate.

I understand the whole concept behind a free speech board and I agree with it in theory but in practice it doesn't work. Even 4chan eventually figured out that some moderation was necessary.

If this site is to grow, and I certainly hope it does, I think ultimately it's going to need some sort of filter. What Piggy does is vandalism. Nothing more.

88   errc   Jan 31, 8:23am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Is it merely coincidence that the same people threatening to leave the site if trolling and personal attacks are addressed, are the same people who always respond to debate and discussion over the nuts and bolts of their positions, by saying "I don't have the time to explain!"

89   Dan8267   Jan 31, 8:41am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

The problem comes down to this. Free-for-all shouting matches are not an effective way to communicate. In all discussion, there has to be rules for spoken or written conversations whether on the Internet or in person.
- You have to use the same language, or your audience won't understand you.
- You cannot speak at the same as others. Nor can you listen to two conversations at once.
- You have to listen to the other side, and they have to listen to you. Neither you nor they can construct counter-argument and attack the central point of the other side without listening to the other side in order to understand what that central point is.
- You have to make the best effort to clearly communicate what you actually mean. This requires both honesty and writing or speaking skills.
- You have to make the best effort to understand what the other side means. This requires both honesty and reading or listening skills.
- You have to give everyone the benefit of the doubt initially.
- But you also have to disengage conversation with trolls. Ignoring them doesn't work. Trying to have honest discussion with them doesn't work. Only being brutally unaccepting of them works.

Without adherence to the above rules, free speech cannot and will not happen. Free speech is not free of cost. It takes effort to practice.

90   FortWayne   Jan 31, 8:45am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Personal biases get in a way, deleting people's posts seems like it's just a decision on who gets the final say in what is ok to say. Both good and bad.

91   Dan8267   Jan 31, 8:47am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Well, there is a way to eliminate personal biases, but it would take considerable effort. One could write an A.I. to determine the trolliness of posts and of users and purge comments appropriately. However, this is a very non-trivial project. It's the kind of problem that is interesting to work on, but requires considerable free time if it's not your job.

This is exactly the kind of thing you'd expect Google labs to work on. It would really leverage their crawling technology.

92   FP   Jan 31, 8:55am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

errc says

Why do you so strongly support personal attacks,

What? Where did you get this from? If you check my interactions on PatNet, you'll see that I tend to pull off from discussion once insults begin to fly. I also rarely insult. Compare my comments with yours in this thread.

Noting that people have let a troll get into their heads is not the same as supporting trolling.

My point here, if it still not clear, is that I do not think that deleting comments is the best way to deal with personal attacks. I have been dealing with them by simply not giving shit and ignoring the comments of the offenders. Just like I'll do with you now.

93   Tenpoundbass   Jan 31, 9:00am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

I want to find some set of self-service rules that lets readers get what they want without my being the judge of content.

I think ignore works like a champ. I've only had to use it on a few people, and it works.
I can even temporarily ignore someone that may have posted a recent not work friendly picture on the main page, until that post has left the main page.

94   Tenpoundbass   Jan 31, 9:02am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Let me just say it would have been nice to publicize my conference without Piggy coming out with "YEW FUCK 14 YEAR OLDS!!!" for the 80th time like he was the most clever piggy in the pen.

The people that follow me around just to post "You Suck!" and say nothing else are the only candidates that I put on ignore.
You should try it. It works!

95   jazz_music   Jan 31, 11:50am     ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike   quote    

I might be the most high profile advocate of the ignore feature which it feels like has earned me a position of high value target to the trolls. Some have taken names specifically to taunt me.

landtof, Allah the devil, (Strategist) I grope u, Ironman, (CIC) DickheadBill, Ranina ranina, Strategist, blowmeironvagina, DrunkJazz, (CIC) JazztheDrunk (CIC)

Notice the overarching troll agenda: they want to punish non-conforming speech AND prove that trolls rule and enjoy ultimate control of discussion here.

So the ignore feature is essentially defeated by troll patrols when they know you have them on ignore they alert other trolls to relay their trolling though the trolls that you don't ignore.

Notice the incidence of friending is high among the trolls here. Few non trolls maintain patnet friend relationships here so that feature must be key to trolling tactics. They must be using "following" and "friending" to both relay their comments and also alert to swarm on an enemy to make troll attacks more overwhelming to strengthen their ad hominem until the discussion is ended.

The trolls do seem to have close relationships and in effect they enjoy a sport of hunting in groups to punish commenters who reject alt-right propaganda with their relentless ad hominem. Also no left-leaning sources are allowed without the source or the commenter becoming the subject.

The relay is one tactic and so is swarming to attack a user such as myself in a cooperative trolling group.

Most often I experience Strategist relaying CIC's attacks of me. They are the 2 principal trolls.

FortWayne, Tenpoundbass, indigenous may not be hard core trolls but they say amazingly inane things almost all the time so I sometimes ignore them. I really have nothing to say to them.

96   jazz_music   Jan 31, 11:56am     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Also since Trump's victory this forum has taken on a new vindictive feel and I have pulled back for a few reasons not just the insufferable nature of so many discussions.

97   justme   Feb 3, 10:12am     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

I would like to give kudos to Patrick for going back to having a thread number in all the URLs. The only thing that would be better would be to have the starting DATE (YYYY-MM-DD or similar) in there, too ;)

Current example:

https://patrick.net/1302130/patnet-improvement-suggestions
https://patrick.net/?p=1302130&c=1375150#comment-1375150

Earlier year 2016 example:

http://patrick.net/Corporate+buybacks+are+99%25+of+NET+stock+purchases+in+2016+so+far
which is now
https://patrick.net/1289861/corporate-buybacks-are-99-of-net-stock-purchases-in-2016-so-far
and under the hood has URLs like this for the comment section:
https://patrick.net/?p=1289861&c=1271301#comment-1271301

I realize that the numeric thread ID always existed under the hood--just want to laud that its now always visible together with the thread title. Thanks, Patrick. It is just the better way to do it. Having a thread with just a Title to identify it seems not so robust when trying to refer to or find old threads one might have saved. What if two have the same title, for example,

98   TwoScoopsMcGee   Feb 3, 1:42pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

A Preview Button for posts!

99   HEY YOU   Feb 3, 2:46pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Is there a way to dislike & ignore everyone with one click?
Post HEY YOU next to all his dislikes & ignores.
It nice to let people know what one thinks of them.

100   FP   Feb 3, 3:08pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

HEY YOU says

It nice to let people know what one thinks of them.

When people dislike they usually comment. Not so much when they like/agree.

I remember clicking "dislike" only twice. One of them by mistake, which I neutralized with a "like."

101   Dan8267   Feb 3, 3:17pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

HEY YOU says

Is there a way to dislike & ignore everyone with one click?

Yes, delete your PatNet bookmark.

102   someone else   Feb 3, 6:29pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

justme says

What if two have the same title, for example,

Can't happen, because title is a unique field in the table.

justme says

The only thing that would be better would be to have the starting DATE (YYYY-MM-DD or similar) in there, too ;)

Could do that, but then urls get longer. Maybe that's ok. In fact, it would be easily to put the date in the "slug" title like this:

https://patrick.net/1302399/2017-02-2-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-amazon

@justme Good enough?

103   justme   Feb 3, 8:36pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

>>https://patrick.net/1302399/2017-02-2-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-amazon

@patrick, sure, that will work although I hope you mean always DD and not just D (probably just a typo). Leading 0s are a must for easy sorting!

104   someone else   Feb 3, 8:38pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

That was just a typo. How about https://patrick.net/1302399/2017-feb-02-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-amazon

If you sort the URLs it will still be sorted by creation date since the post_ID comes first.

105   TwoScoopsMcGee   Feb 3, 8:39pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

justme says

@patrick, sure, that will work although I hope you mean always DD and not just D (probably just a typo). Leading 0s are a must for easy sorting!

Yeah, DDs are better than Ds for sure.

Although some say more than a handful... I ain't one of them.

106   someone else   Feb 3, 8:40pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Lol, I can totally get by with firm well-formed C's.

107   someone else   Feb 4, 2:00am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

justme says

The only thing that would be better would be to have the starting DATE (YYYY-MM-DD or similar) in there, too ;)

@justme your wish has been granted.

Post slugs now start with YYYY-MM-DD.

108   iwog   Feb 14, 4:59pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Nooooooooooooooo. What did you do? WHAT DID YOU DO???

109   someone else   Feb 14, 5:01pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Nooooooooooooooo. What did you do? WHAT DID YOU DO???

This suggestion by Rew:

"Each section should have its own top trending posts. Each few top trending post should be viewable on the home page."

from https://patrick.net/1302953/2017-02-14-how-to-make-patrick-net-home-page-capture-new-users?c=1380579#comment-1380579

110   iwog   Feb 14, 5:41pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

I think Rew made an error.

Most of us kind of skip around and don't dwell on any particular topic. We just like going where the action is.

111   justme   Feb 14, 5:41pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

I still think that having all the changing aliases of all the usual suspects on their "home page" would be useful.

112   landtof   Feb 14, 6:03pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

iwog says

Most of us kind of skip around and don't dwell on any particular topic. We just like going where the action is.

yeah, turn it back.

patrick - simple is clean and elegant. follow the fundamentals. the body should be threads of any topic, with the most recent on top. that is universal. there's not enough breadth of material here to warrant classes or sub-groups, and that's a good thing. whatever the topic, users should feel obliged to freely speak their minds. the menu bar is of most use to new users when they can learn the purpose of the site, learn the lingo (e.g. IHL), learn about the history of the site (housing), and get a quick hit to the top threads & comments of the month, week, day, or all time. thread bodies should not be paginated, but rather dynamically presented based on user preference - if they want to see the whole thing in a long scroll, or just the most recent of the day, for example.

113   errc   Feb 14, 6:09pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Agree. I'd much rather the homepage be most recent posts.

114   justme   Feb 14, 6:09pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

@Patrick, the problem with categories is that they depend on hasthags and there isn't even a high-priority category for #news. I tried putting #news into my Lake Oroville thread, and i still have to go to "all threads" (?) to see it. Categories are not good, I agree with iwog and landtof. People who want categories should search for them themselves. My interest in a thread does not depend on some semi-arbitrary category designation. It depends one the quality of the content, and the (potential) impact it has for educating me or others.

And, given that half the posters cannot even write a descriptive headline, how can one expect them to assign a proper hashtag or categpory? One man's science is another man's "politics" (climate warming being a good example).

115   someone else   Feb 14, 6:10pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

justme says

Categories are not good, I agree with iwog and landtof. People who want categories should search for them themselves.

You're all right. Didn't feel good.

Reverted!

Let me know if any problems linger.

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