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757,246 comments in 78,013 posts by 11,102 registered users, 8 online now: Dan8267, drBu, errc, just_passing_through, mell, nakkawi, WillyWanker, YesYNot

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71% say illegal immigrants should be deported

By Dan8267   2017 Mar 2, 2:33pm 5363 views   109 comments   watch   quote      

The other 29% are illegal immigrants and their anchor babies.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-illegal-immigrants-be-deported

#poltiics

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70 Dan8267   2017 Mar 3, 11:17pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

iwog says

Don't need to point to a gene.

Don't need or can't? Making a genetic claim is a strong statement. It does require evidence.

iwog says

Mankind is often called the tool making animal or tool making ape.

Yes, but tool making isn't the division of people into laborers and owners. The ability to do that didn't start until after the agricultural revolution. Hence saying capitalism is part of our evolution is a bit far fetched.

71 iwog   2017 Mar 3, 11:45pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Dan8267 says

Don't need or can't? Making a genetic claim is a strong statement. It does require evidence.

You know Charles Darwin came up with the entire theory of evolution without any confirmation that genes even existed right? There is plenty of evidence of genetic behavioral traits that do not require the examination of specific genes. Anyway infants are damn good tool users while chimps are not. That's a pretty compelling data point.

Dan8267 says

Yes, but tool making isn't the division of people into laborers and owners. The ability to do that didn't start until after the agricultural revolution. Hence saying capitalism is part of our evolution is a bit far fetched.

There's no way humanity will give up capitalism. It thrives even in the most oppressive environments. The underground market in North Korea is very active even when the penalty is death. I'm pretty sure what you are proposing is something like the Venus project but it will never work. The people would tear it apart out of frustration and simply for the lolz.

72 zzyzzx   2017 Mar 4, 11:13am   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote      

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/mexico-prepares-to-absorb-a-wave-of-deportees-in-the-trump-era/2017/03/03/a7bd624a-f86c-11e6-aa1e-5f735ee31334_story.html

Castillo said he was arrested when U.S. immigration officials knocked on his door looking for one of his sons, who had been scheduled for deportation. They didn’t find his son and, after checking his ID, picked him up instead.

73 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 11:18am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

iwog says

You know Charles Darwin came up with the entire theory of evolution without any confirmation that genes even existed right? There is plenty of evidence of genetic behavioral traits that do not require the examination of specific genes.

I'm fine with that. Ultimately all traits caused by genetics can be traced back to genes, by definition. But if you have actual evidence other than genetic that demonstrates that capitalism is an evolved characteristic, present it. You have not presented any evidence. Your words do not constitute evidence. Show me a peer-review scientific paper that demonstrates capitalism is an evolved characteristic of humans. Show me fossil evidence or proteins that create capitalistic structures. Any physical evidence.

iwog says

There's no way humanity will give up capitalism.

Again evidence?

Humanity won't give up commerce, but commerce isn't capitalism. And again, there are literally an infinite number of possible economic systems. We've tried a total of three. And yet you feel confidence that those three are so reflective of the other infinite alternatives that we should just abandon the search for new economic systems. After all, if our first three attempts aren't perfect, why bother trying a fourth?

74 iwog   2017 Mar 4, 1:44pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Dan8267 says

But if you have actual evidence other than genetic that demonstrates that capitalism is an evolved characteristic, present it.

I did. There's plenty of evidence the tool using/making ability is genetic, tools are capital, thus capitalism is genetic. People like to collect and hoard tools for production of assets. People like to collect and hoard plots of land for production of assets. I don't see any fundamental difference.

The way I see it you only have several options of attack for this argument:

1. Tool using isn't capital. I linked an article saying durable goods are indeed capital.
2. Using capital isn't capitalism. I hope you're not going down this road.
3. Small scale capitalism doesn't equate to modern capitalism. If this is the case, I guess I'll have to just disagree. I don't see any fundamental difference between hoarding wrenches and hoarding houses.
4. The tool making trait has no genetic basis. I think you're going after this one but I'm not sure why. You can't train a chimpanzee to use scissors however preschool children have no problem whatsoever using scissors.

Finally what I am proposing is a hypothesis. Charles Darwin admitted all he had was a hypothesis and the proof came many years later. You're welcome to disagree but I think most of what I've said is prima facia.

75 iwog   2017 Mar 4, 1:45pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Dan8267 says

iwog says

There's no way humanity will give up capitalism.

Again evidence?

You don't look to empirically prove a prediction. I will say there are no examples in human history of any civilization giving up capitalism. As oppression increases, so does the black market. This is a pretty constant phenomenon.

76 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 3:02pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

iwog says

tools are capital, thus capitalism is genetic.

Does not follow. Tool usage isn't capitalism. It is not the division of society into workers and owners. The typical hunter gatherer made his own tools, and then used those tools to hunt, fish, and make the things he used. If he traded at all, he did so with bartering goods he created. He did not live off the wealth production of others simply because he owned the flint query.

What you are talking about is not capitalism and it's not what I'm proposing we get rid off. There would still be plenty of tool usage under any other economic system.

The way to get rid of capitalism is to change patent law, copyright law, and other laws that empower owners and disempower producers. A georgist society where robots are owned by the public rather than a few parasitic owners who don't even understand how they work, would not go against human nature.

77 iwog   2017 Mar 4, 3:04pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Dan8267 says

Does not follow. Tool usage isn't capitalism. It is not the division of society into workers and owners.

It's literally capitalism. All schools teach that workers are simply another type of capital. Durable goods are also capital. You can argue that it's somehow a different kind of capitalism but I think the drives and the feelings that cause people to exploit a rock or exploit a nation full of poor people are the same.

I don't really know yet what you propose to replace capitalism with but I would bet it would clash with what men like to do when they get up in the morning.

78 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 3:05pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

iwog says

I think most of what I've said is prima facia.

You made the claim that capitalism, which has only been around at most 12,000 years, is genetically wired into our species. This is an extraordinary claim never made by any biologist, geneticist, or anthropologist. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, so it is not unreasonable for me to demand at least one shred of scientific evidence before accepting the claim as true.

79 iwog   2017 Mar 4, 3:07pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Dan8267 says

You made the claim that capitalism, which has only been around at most 12,000 years, is genetically wired into our species. This is an extraordinary claim never made by any biologist, geneticist, or anthropologist. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, so it is not unreasonable for me to demand at least one shred of scientific evidence before accepting the claim as true.

It's an extraordinary hypothesis exactly like the theory of evolution. Darwin couldn't prove evolution and admitted it.

However the fact that humans are inherently tool users isn't disputed. It's also not disputed that exploitation of tools for production is capitalism. I'm actually not making a very big leap here.

80 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 3:11pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

iwog says

Dan8267 says

Does not follow. Tool usage isn't capitalism. It is not the division of society into workers and owners.

It's literally capitalism. All schools teach that workers are simply another type of capital. Durable goods are also capital.

Capitalism isn't the use of durable goods. Capitalism is the division of producers and owners and giving the owners control over distribution of wealth.

If you want to argue that any tool use or ownership of durable goods is capitalism, then every economic system is capitalism and the word becomes meaningless. Nonetheless, what I am objecting to is the use of law to empower one class to control production and distribution of wealth at the expense of another class that does all the actual work and does not own the fruits of their labor. Call that whatever you want. It's not a genetically predestined condition of humanity, and it's a bad system. I'm not going to get into a nomenclature argument. Such arguments are pointless.

81 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 3:13pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

iwog says

It's an extraordinary hypothesis exactly like the theory of evolution. Darwin couldn't prove evolution and admitted it.

Nonetheless, there has been extraordinary proof of the theory of evolution. Once that proof came in, the world accepted the theory and rightfully so. This does not mean the world should defacto accept any claim.

82 iwog   2017 Mar 4, 3:16pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Dan8267 says

Capitalism isn't the use of durable goods. Capitalism is the division of producers and owners and giving the owners control over distribution of wealth.

That's common usage however again I'm not making a very big leap here to tie the exploitation of things and the exploitation of people into the same drive that all humans have to conquer nature. You're goal as emperor would be to eliminate capitalism. What I'm saying is that humans will always seek to utilize others to get ahead. That's pretty much the only indisputable tool that women have at their disposal. Are you saying that in a hardcore anti-capitalist society women wouldn't use sex to get more than the next girl? Again....capitalism.

83 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 3:16pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

iwog says

However the fact that humans are inherently tool users isn't disputed.

Chimps use sticks to fish for terminates. That doesn't mean they have a capitalistic economy. Tool use isn't capitalism. Trade isn't capitalism. Commerce isn't capitalism. Even the use of currency isn't capitalism.

84 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 3:17pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

iwog says

What I'm saying is that humans will always seek to utilize others to get ahead.

Which does not require capitalism. Cooperation is not capitalism. Calibration is not capitalism.

Nothing you have said that humans want or need to do cannot be done in an alternative to capitalism.

85 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 3:20pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

iwog says

Are you saying that in a hardcore anti-capitalist society women wouldn't use sex to get more than the next girl? Again....capitalism.

Prostitution is not capitalism. Exchanging goods for sex is not capitalism. Using wealth to seduce women is not capitalism.

Male chimps frequently give fruits, meat, and other valued items to female chimps in exchange for sex. Chimps are not running a capitalistic economy. Again, trade is not capitalism.

If you want to expand the definition of capitalism to include just about all economic activity, then the word no longer refers to what I'm proposing we replace.

86 iwog   2017 Mar 4, 3:22pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Dan8267 says

Which does not require capitalism. Cooperation is not capitalism. Calibration is not capitalism.

Nothing you have said that humans want or need to do cannot be done in an alternative to capitalism.

Then I find your definition of capitalism to be far too narrow to be useful. I've never heard anyone claim that prostitution was anything OTHER than capitalism.

The division of an economy between owners and workers can be sliced down to the tiniest detail. I own a lawn mower so I'm an owner. You don't have a lawn mower and I'm only willing to share if you mow my lawn so now you're a worker. I was able to steal an extra loaf of bread from the collective so now I'm an owner. Sally is starving and she'll fuck me for the loaf of bread so now she's a worker. You can never get away from these transactions. These transactions always scale. I don't think what you want is possible.

87 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 3:28pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

iwog says

I've never heard anyone claim that prostitution was anything OTHER than capitalism.

Pimping is capitalism. Prostitution is not. The key word in capitalism is "capital". It's not about ownership of your own work. That would be the antithesis of capitalism. A prostitute working for herself owns the fruits of her own labor. A prostitute working for a pimp does not.

Capitalism is the division of people into many prostitutes and a few pimps. The prostitutes do all the work and produce all the wealth. The pimps then take the lion's share of the revenue from this work and give as little as they can back to the prostitutes. That is capitalism.

Prostitution good. Pimping bad. Pimps abuse and exploit prostitutes. The best system allows the prostitutes to retain their wealth creation rather than having to give most of it to an arbitrary group of people who control the distribution of sexual services and get to collect and distribute the revenue of those services according to their own selfish desires.

Pimps will never look after the best interests of prostitutes, johns, or society at large. Pimps are inherently selfish people, and the services they provide are at best overhead, today can be done with computers, and most often are purely parasitic.

Let's keep the prostitutes and get rid of the pimps.

88 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 3:29pm   ↑ like (2)   ↑ dislike (2)     quote      

You know, I think I finally got Rin into economics.

89 deepcgi   2017 Mar 4, 3:30pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote      

Do you think humanity will give up on cash? The powers that be seem to hate that little loophole.

90 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 3:31pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

deepcgi says

Do you think humanity will give up on cash?

Yes, but that has nothing to do with capitalism. Money is money regardless of its form.

91 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 3:33pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

iwog says

Then I find your definition of capitalism to be far too narrow to be useful.

I can think of many useful reforms regarding the specific mechanism called capitalism. If what you are objecting to is using a different word, feel at ease. If we ever transition to a different economic system, I'm sure it will still be called capitalism. Most people are ignorant of economics, science, and infrastructure and don't care. So, of course, society will continue to call our economy capitalism even when it's nothing like that.

And quite frankly I don't care. It's the system, not the name, that matters. It's just that when you are proposing an idea, it's important people speak the same language so they can understand the idea.

92 RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks   2017 Mar 4, 3:33pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote      

condoning illegal activities because they benefit you financially is backward and corrupt.

so now we know what the liberals TRULY stand for: BIGGER POCKETS at the expense of others.

93 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 3:34pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

so now we know what the liberals stand for: BIGGER POCKETS at the expense of others.

I'm the most liberal person here. How exactly do I stand for bigger pockets at the expense of others? Seems like you are describing big business.

94 RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks   2017 Mar 4, 3:35pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

maybe Switzerland needs to import some illegals.

HOW are they going to put groceries in their supermarkets??!?

95 APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE   2017 Mar 4, 3:41pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

We can't afford snipers?

96 someone else   2017 Mar 4, 3:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

RealEstateIsBetterThanStocks says

maybe Switzerland needs to import some illegals.

HOW are they going to put groceries in their supermarkets??!?

Lol, excellent point!

How on earth does Switzerland even function without illegals?

97 iwog   2017 Mar 4, 3:52pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Patrick says

Lol, excellent point!

How on earth does Switzerland even function without illegals?

They are just like the United States. They own the capital and run the corporations. Their slave labor class is mostly in Africa and they survive on imports.

98 iwog   2017 Mar 4, 3:55pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote      

Also from what I've seen, the richer European countries are trying to force Spain into the same agra-servitude box via high unemployment and spreading poverty.

99 TwoScoopsMcGee   2017 Mar 4, 4:05pm   ↑ like (2)   ↑ dislike (2)     quote      

Patrick says

How on earth does Switzerland even function without illegals?

They still manufacture chocolate and other low-value added goods there as well. Switzerland is very tough on citizenship; they just denied somebody citizenship for nagging her neighbors about vegetarianism too much, she had lived there since a child.

A) Armed to the Teeth
B) Most things decided at the lowest level
C) Massive participatory democracy involving referendums
D) Stingy about Citizenship, they deport people at the drop of a hat.
E) Neutral.

Bad Side:
A) Not keeping your property in supertrim shape will land you in fines or prison really fast.
B) 5 minutes early is on time, you will be fired for being 5 seconds late (Germany on steroids).

Now imagine if a 300+M sized nation imitated this.

100 someone else   2017 Mar 4, 4:49pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote      

WaPoIsHitler Lipsovitch says

Now imagine if a 300+M sized nation imitated this.

Sounds pretty good to me. I particularly love being exactly on time.

101 FP   2017 Mar 4, 5:47pm   ↑ like (1)   ↑ dislike (1)     quote      

Patrick says

How on earth does Switzerland even function without illegals?

It's full with Albanians.

102 someone else   2017 Mar 4, 5:52pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Btw, capitalism is control of the means of production by a small group of owners, while presenting the unrealistic possibility of joining that group to the poor, to keep them from revolting.

103 iwog   2017 Mar 4, 5:56pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Patrick says

Btw, capitalism is control of the means of production by a small group of owners, while presenting the unrealistic possibility of joining that group to the poor, to keep them from revolting.

While true, the mob has a horrible record of utilizing capital. This happens every time there's a socialist revolution. It also happened in Zimbabwe when the mob "reclaimed" all the farms from the white owners and turned Zimbabwe from the bread basket of Africa into the poverty-hyperinflation capital of the world.

"Brave New World" by Huxley got a lot more right than anyone ever wants to admit.

104 FortWayne   2017 Mar 4, 7:46pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Dan do you have ADD?

Dan8267 says

FortWayne says

If laws aren't enforced than we have no laws.

Another reason to prosecute torturers and cops who murder.

105 Dan8267   2017 Mar 4, 11:51pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Fort Wayne, if you can't see the connection between "if laws aren't enforced than we have no laws" and "another reason to prosecute torturers and cops who murder", then it is you who has ADD. The connection is obvious. Torture and murder both violate the law. For those who commit such heinous crimes to not be punished would be non-enforcement of the law. I cannot dumb it down more than that.

106 bob2356   2017 Mar 5, 6:27am   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Patrick says

How on earth does Switzerland even function without illegals?

You don't need to pick money or prescription drugs, which is pretty much the only real industries there, from vines and trees. The quaint little farms don't produce much, they import their food and have the bucks to pay for it.

How do many countries around the world function without illegals? Just fine. We could too, but things would cost more. Eliminate the jobs and you wouldn't need to deport illegals. They would leave if they couldn't work. When is trump going to start throwing employers in jail?

107 FortWayne   2017 Mar 5, 7:48pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

Connection?
Dude you are constantly going off topic.

Dan8267 says

Fort Wayne, if you can't see the connection between "if laws aren't enforced than we have no laws" and "another reason to prosecute torturers and cops who murder", then it is you who has ADD. The connection is obvious. Torture and murder both violate the law. For those who commit such heinous crimes to not be punished would be non-enforcement of the law. I cannot dumb it down more than that.

109 Dan8267   2017 Mar 5, 11:26pm   ↑ like (0)   ↑ dislike (0)     quote      

FortWayne says

Connection?

Like I said, I can't dumb it down any more. You'll just have to stretch your brain to see the connection. It's obvious to everyone else.

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