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Brave engineer at Google states biological facts

By someone else   Aug 7, 9:04am   6 links   6,056 views   319 comments   watch (1)   quote      

Woohoo! There is a small break in the dam holding back scientific truth about gender.

http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-the-full-10-page-anti-diversity-screed-1797564320

A software engineer’s 10-page screed (sic) against Google’s diversity initiatives is going viral inside the company, being shared on an internal meme network and Google+. The document’s existence was first reported by Motherboard, and Gizmodo has obtained it in full.

In the memo, which is the personal opinion of a male Google employee and is titled “Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber,” the author argues that women are underrepresented in tech not because they face bias and discrimination in the workplace, but because of inherent psychological differences between men and women. “We need to stop assuming that gender gaps imply sexism,” he writes, going on to argue that Google’s educational programs for young women may be misguided.

And some delightful nuggets of truth which have so far been repressed by shaming, straw-man exaggerations, and even firing of anyone with the balls to speak:

TL:DR

Google’s political bias has equated the freedom from offense with psychological safety, but shaming into silence is the antithesis of psychological safety.
This silencing has created an ideological echo chamber where some ideas are too sacred to be honestly discussed.
The lack of discussion fosters the most extreme and authoritarian elements of this ideology.
Extreme: all disparities in representation are due to oppression
Authoritarian: we should discriminate to correct for this oppression
Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. Discrimination to reach equal representation is unfair, divisive, and bad for business.

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200   TwoScoopsMcGee   Aug 10, 8:27pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

The guy lost the game when he called some behavior "Neurotic". He was riffing hard, making sense, then botched a few bars there and killed his claim with that.

If women have preferences/worldviews/behaviors that are biologically innate in most, then by definition it's not neurotic.

That was the "Oops", the wrong note, with which Google justified his firing.

201   someone else   Aug 10, 8:49pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

TwoScoopsMcGee says

The guy lost the game when he called some behavior "Neurotic".

Yes, you have to be extremely careful about choice of words when speaking truth to power.

They will seize on any hint of weakness in your position to justify your execution.

202   Heraclitusstudent   Aug 10, 10:41pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

PeopleUnited says

I expect to see Mohamed in the afterlife, but he won't be sending me anywhere. Zeus may even exist, as a fallen angel

Pure suppositions.
Why do you believe that?
Let me tell you why: your parents believed it and they brainwashed you at a young age.
If your parents had been Muslims, you'd be an Islamic devout bending over 5 times a day toward the Levant.

PeopleUnited says

The only myths are the one's that are not true.

Myths are other just people religions.

203   Heraclitusstudent   Aug 10, 10:45pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

TwoScoopsMcGee says

The guy lost the game when he called some behavior "Neurotic". He was riffing hard, making sense, then botched a few bars there and killed his claim with that.

In this interview he disarmed a lot of booby traps. Presents himself as moderate. Dismisses links with alt-right. Says he is in favor of women access tech positions, and he is only talking of what women WANT to do. Says tech guys themselves are a few percent of the male population, etc... He comes out as pretty reasonable.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2017-08-10/fired-engineer-damore-i-feel-google-betrayed-me-video

204   TwoScoopsMcGee   Aug 10, 11:07pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Heraclitusstudent says

In this interview he disarmed a lot of booby traps. Presents himself as moderate. Dismisses links with alt-right. Says he is in favor of women access tech positions, and he is only talking of what women WANT to do. Says tech guys themselves are a few percent of the male population, etc... He comes out as pretty reasonable.

He did, but that one bad word choice gave Google an excuse, because...

Patrick says

Yes, you have to be extremely careful about choice of words when speaking truth to power.

And if they can't find something, they'll carefully edit something, use a moment of satire as if it was an earnest statement of belief (a favorite, CNN just did this to Lord, Meghan Kelly did it to Alex Jones), or otherwise eliminate context.

In any case, the demonization of people seems to be having a reverse impact, since unlike 20 years ago you can use the internet to look people up and read/hear them for yourself. So all publicity is good publicity - for now, until YouTube and Social Media becomes totally under SJW bot control. Also, "Language Learning" AI will be used to root out "Cant" where people substitute a common word/phrase for what they really mean ("The City of the Seven Hills" instead of "Rome".)

205   ThreeBays   Aug 11, 12:23am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

206   bob2356   Aug 11, 5:28am     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

ThreeBays says

Good read: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788

TL;DR more stupid than brave.

Very good read. Please don't confuse dan, patrick, TPB, and lips with someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

I thought they guy was more stupid also. Sounds like a red pill type. My theory on the lack of women in tech is that when they do go into college to do stem then after a couple of semesters dealing with the red pill crowd they say screw this I don't want to work with these anal orifices for the next 40 years and change majors. Just a thought.

207   Quigley   Aug 11, 7:28am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

My sister-in-law who is a computer programmer had an opinion on the manifesto in question. She agreed with the assertion that google is suppressing ideological debate or diversity, but thought that he should have ended with that. Going after women in STEM was just too much, and offended her as a woman who enjoys her work.

208   APOCALYPSEFUCK_is_ADORABLE   Aug 11, 7:37am     ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike   quote    

GOOGLE should have given the guy a CUNTS! CAN'T! CODE! T-shirt and given him a big raise.

209   Dan8267   Aug 11, 7:42am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

PeopleUnited says

1. Being in control of your emotions is not the same as being emotionless.

Straw man argument that doesn't address what I said.

PeopleUnited says

2. Sex is not an emotion.

People have sex because of the emotions involved. How can you not know this?

PeopleUnited says

The Zen master rightly defines it as ruling over your emotions rather than letting them rule over you.

No, that's the point. Ruling over your emotions does not prevent you from being stabbed in a robbery. Nor is there any cosmological force that causes people who fail to do so to magically get their comeuppance. Life if often unjust. It does not self-correct. To make life just requires active effort, not karma.

PeopleUnited says

That does not mean there are not other ways

Another straw man argument.

PeopleUnited says

your rational evil argument fails

I sincerely doubt you even know what I'm stating, and thus cannot judge it. But hey, prove me wrong. Clearly and accurately state what my position is. We'll see how close you get.

210   someone else   Aug 11, 8:21am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Quigley says

Going after women in STEM was just too much, and offended her as a woman who enjoys her work.

I don't think he was "going after" women in tech at all. To characterize it that way is to create a strawman for easy attack.

He was just coherently explaining why there are fewer women in tech, namely their greater disinterest in it, and objecting to the relentless blaming of male "sexism" for women's disinterest.

As well as objecting to shaming as a means of suppressing open discussion of the issue. He's absolutely right about that for sure.

211   Dan8267   Aug 11, 8:36am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

I don't think he was "going after" women in tech at all. To characterize it that way is to create a strawman for easy attack.

People with no legitimate counterarguments always go for straw men and poisoning the well. You see that all the time on PatNet and every other forum. This is exactly what the mainstream media did to the memo's author.

Straw men and well poisonings are clear indications of weak positions.

212   someone else   Aug 11, 8:39am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

ThreeBays says

Good read: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788

Nope, sucky read that confirms yet again everything James pointed out. Just start with the very first line:

You have probably heard about the manifesto a Googler (not someone senior) published internally about, essentially, how women and men are intrinsically different and we should stop trying to make it possible for women to be engineers, it’s just not worth it.

Yet another disingenuous strawman. Will they never end? James never once even implied we should stop trying to make it possible for women to be engineers. Not in the least.

And that article continues with the usual relentless shaming. The "author does not understand" over and over and over ad nauseum.

Lol.

213   Dan8267   Aug 11, 8:44am     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

And that article continues with the usual relentless shaming. The "author does not understand" over and over and over ad nauseum.

Must be written by a PatNet user.

214   someone else   Aug 11, 8:52am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

TwoScoopsMcGee says

And if they can't find something, they'll carefully edit something

Yes, this is a core technique of "fake news". When you go see the original video of an interview then you clearly understand how the press is twisting everything to fit an agenda. They keep their credibility in the gutter this way. It's sad, and it's happening right now with James Damore.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

In any case, the demonization of people seems to be having a reverse impact, since unlike 20 years ago you can use the internet to look people up and read/hear them for yourself. So all publicity is good publicity - for now, until YouTube and Social Media becomes totally under SJW bot control.

That reverse impact effect is exactly how Trump got elected. Every press hissy fit that put Trump in the headlines again was another billion dollars effectively donated to his campaign. That was really beautiful to behold.

When YouTube and the rest of social media have completely exterminated honest open discussion, patrick.net will be the place to be! Looking forward to it.

215   drBu   Aug 11, 8:57am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

bob2356 says

when they do go into college to do stem then after a couple of semesters dealing with the red pill crowd they say screw this I don't want to work with these anal orifices for the next 40 years and change majors

I teach at a university, have a large research group that is about 20% women, and can confidently say that this is absolutely not the reason. The reason, at least in my field, is the length of highly competitive studies coupled with time investment - I have heard this over and over from women in my research group. By the time they have a secure job, they are in early to middle 30's and many of them think that it is too late to have children. So-called "red pill" crowd is not present save a few individuals, as most students are geeks who can not tie their own shoes in the morning and have a very tenuous grip on surrounding reality. You may not believe this, but some are not aware of US presidential elections, at the same time being very good at research. Furthermore, if some woman is put off by someone spouting sexist nonsense, what will be her success in real job where people back-stab each other for promotions, competition is unfair, etc.

216   landtof   Aug 11, 9:03am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

drBu says

By the time they have a secure job, they are in early to middle 30's and many of them think that it is too late to have children.

real women want to raise a family. some might argue that it's... biological!

217   someone else   Aug 11, 9:05am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

drBu says

By the time they have a secure job, they are in early to middle 30's and many of them think that it is too late to have children.

Declining female fertility with age is a biological reality. Is the mere mention of that fact sexist?

218   drBu   Aug 11, 9:14am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

Is the mere mention of that fact sexist?

Many facts are sexist, and reality of life is sexist as well.

219   ThreeBays   Aug 11, 9:56am     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

And that article continues with the usual relentless shaming. The "author does not understand" ...

Oh I see, you think his outcome is not because of his own actions and lack of social intelligence. His outcome is because of unfair systemic bias. Sounds familiar.

220   Dan8267   Aug 11, 9:56am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Patrick says

Nope, sucky read that confirms yet again everything James pointed out. Just start with the very first line:

You have probably heard about the manifesto a Googler (not someone senior) published internally about, essentially, how women and men are intrinsically different and we should stop trying to make it possible for women to be engineers, it’s just not worth it.

Yet another disingenuous strawman. Will they never end? James never once even implied we should stop trying to make it possible for women to be engineers. Not in the least.

Maybe this guy is a genius. He could sue for liable every single media outlet that misrepresented what he said. He traded a 40 to 90 hour a week STEM job for potentially millions of dollars and never having to work again.

221   Heraclitusstudent   Aug 11, 10:38am     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

drBu says

I teach at a university, have a large research group that is about 20% women, and can confidently say that this is absolutely not the reason.

If women, as a group, invested as much energy and efforts into coding as they do complaining about men, the patriarchy, they would dominate the tech industry.

222   bob2356   Aug 11, 1:48pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

drBu says

I teach at a university, have a large research group that is about 20% women, and can confidently say that this is absolutely not the reason. The reason, at least in my field, is the length of highly competitive studies coupled with time investment - I have heard this over and over from women in my research group. By the time they have a secure job, they are in early to middle 30's and many of them think that it is too late to have children

and so many women (50% of medical school students now) become doctors how? It's very highly competitive with a bigger commitment of time (4 years undergrad, 4 years med school 4-7 years residency with hours averaging over 90 a week) and they don't get a job at all until they are in early to mid 30's. Your anecdotal experience doesn't jib with real life.

223   someone else   Aug 11, 1:53pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

ThreeBays says

Oh I see, you think his outcome is not because of his own actions and lack of social intelligence. His outcome is because of unfair systemic bias. Sounds familiar.

His own actions did not merit being fired.

That outcome was a perfect example of the extreme and authoritarian response he described in his document, nicely proving his point that "some ideas are too sacred to be honestly discussed".

The outcome was indeed exactly because of unfair systemic bias against discussing those ideas.

224   drBu   Aug 11, 2:12pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

bob2356 says

and so many women (50% of medical school students now) become doctors how? It's very highly competitive with a bigger commitment of time (4 years undergrad, 4 years med school 4-7 years residency with hours averaging over 90 a week) and they don't get a job at all until they are in early to mid 30's. Your anecdotal experience doesn't jib with real life.

So women are perpetually oppressed, harassed by so-called red pill people, and this is the reason why they do not go into engineering and hard sciences? I have not seen that here, and I have not seen it anywhere. What I have seen is that women have scholarships which men do not have, that they are invited to conferences more than men, basically just because they are women, etc. If there is any discrimination, it goes the other way and there is still shortage of women in these disciplines. May be the reason is not commitment length, may be they just do not like to be closeted in a lab without much contact with other humans, while men are OK with that.

With respect to my answer, this was what i got from women when I ask why they stop at BS or MS level as opposed to getting PhD. Perhaps med schools have different dynamics. Or they are lying to me, which is unlikely. And one can ask why surgeons are much more likely to be men? Is that specialty extremely sexist while other med specialties are not?

225   Heraclitusstudent   Aug 11, 2:22pm     ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

bob2356 says

and so many women (50% of medical school students now) become doctors how? It's very highly competitive with a bigger commitment of time (4 years undergrad, 4 years med school 4-7 years residency with hours averaging over 90 a week) and they don't get a job at all until they are in early to mid 30's. Your anecdotal experience doesn't jib with real life.

And medical students are never red pill people that discourage women from entering that field?

226   Heraclitusstudent   Aug 11, 2:26pm     ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike   quote    

ThreeBays says

Oh I see, you think his outcome is not because of his own actions and lack of social intelligence. His outcome is because of unfair systemic bias. Sounds familiar.

Yeah, we know. Lowering the bar to hire more women is "taking away white male privilege", and if someone complains about it, he lacks the social intelligence to recognize that his being discriminated against to paper over biology is in fact fair.

We need women in this field - at all cost.

227   Booger   Aug 11, 3:08pm     ↑ like (5)   ↓ dislike   quote    

228   Booger   Aug 11, 3:08pm     ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike   quote    

229   Booger   Aug 11, 3:26pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

230   Booger   Aug 11, 3:33pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

231   Booger   Aug 11, 3:37pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

232   Booger   Aug 11, 3:41pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

233   someone else   Aug 11, 3:58pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

I like it!

http://www.marchongoogle.com/

OK, I plan to be in the crowd on August 19th.

I like the Think Different posters comparing Apple to Google, but am quite certain that Apple would stomp on any open discussion of the PC Koran as well.

234   Heraclitusstudent   Aug 11, 4:14pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

TwoScoopsMcGee says

He did, but that one bad word choice gave Google an excuse, because...

I’d say his aim was perfect: anti-PC and inflammatory enough as to provoke a huge moralistic witch hunt reflex against it, but true and reasonable enough that it’s very hard to justify it’s firing. A lot of men are watching this and thinking “hmm… that makes sense to me.”.
Sundar Pichai cancelled a planned meeting at Google, citing security fears, but it appears it would just be very difficult for him to justify the firing in front of a crowd, many of whom agree with the memo.

In fact the firing is dubious enough to raise calls for Pichai resignation, EVEN IN THE NYT:

Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/opinion/sundar-pichai-google-memo-diversity.html?ref=opinion
———
[…]
Geoffrey Miller, a prominent evolutionary psychologist, wrote in Quillette, “For what it’s worth, I think that almost all of the Google memo’s empirical claims are scientifically accurate.”
[…]
What we have is a legitimate tension. Damore is describing a truth on one level; his sensible critics are describing a different truth, one that exists on another level. He is championing scientific research; they are championing gender equality. It takes a little subtlety to harmonize these strands, but it’s doable.
[…]
As Conor Friedersdorf wrote in The Atlantic, “I cannot remember the last time so many outlets and observers mischaracterized so many aspects of a text everyone possessed.” Various reporters and critics apparently decided that Damore opposes all things Enlightened People believe and therefore they don’t have to afford him the basic standards of intellectual fairness.
[…]
The mob that hounded Damore was like the mobs we’ve seen on a lot of college campuses. We all have our theories about why these moral crazes are suddenly so common. I’d say that radical uncertainty about morality, meaning and life in general is producing intense anxiety. Some people embrace moral absolutism in a desperate effort to find solid ground. They feel a rare and comforting sense of moral certainty when they are purging an evil person who has violated one of their sacred taboos.

235   drBu   Aug 11, 4:49pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

This is a nice explanation for the cause of PC outrage about (former) google guy's memo:

From https://twitter.com/sentientist/status/894959693822558209

236   drBu   Aug 11, 4:53pm     ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Heraclitusstudent says

purging an evil person who has violated one of their sacred taboos.

Let's burn Giordano Bruno for violating a sacred taboo (and blame burning him on his own actions and lack of social intelligence)...humanity has gone through that before.

237   someone else   Aug 11, 5:11pm     ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike   quote    

By the same reasoning, everyone who publicly questions Islam deserves to die, because that questioning was in fact his own action, and shows his lack of social intelligence.

The NY Times article is surprisingly unbiased given the NY Times' recent history as a major purveyor of highly slanted "news".

This bit is very wrong tho:

Heraclitusstudent says

What we have is a legitimate tension. Damore is describing a truth on one level; his sensible critics are describing a different truth, one that exists on another level. He is championing scientific research; they are championing gender equality. It takes a little subtlety to harmonize these strands, but it’s doable.

A "different truth"? Wasn't the NY Times the primer mocker of Kellyanne Conway's "alternative facts" phrase?

Championing equality of outcome regardless of merit is not a "truth" in any sense. It is an agenda.

But this line almost makes up for it:

Heraclitusstudent says

As Conor Friedersdorf wrote in The Atlantic, “I cannot remember the last time so many outlets and observers mischaracterized so many aspects of a text everyone possessed.” Various reporters and critics apparently decided that Damore opposes all things Enlightened People believe and therefore they don’t have to afford him the basic standards of intellectual fairness.

That's a perfect summary. The mischaracterization of Damore's statement is just amazing and relentless. As if what the guy actually wrote doesn't matter at all. He openly doubts their Koran and so must die.

238   Booger   Aug 11, 6:40pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

239   Booger   Aug 11, 6:58pm     ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

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