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OMG! Shrek is dead!


By Dan8267   Follow   Wed, 21 Sep 2011, 6:23am PDT   23,841 views   328 comments
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The great tragedy is that it is only now after his passing that I realize how much I miss the little guy and his insane rants. Let us all bow our heads and remember the fond times we had with him. Let us remember his sacrifice, which allows us to finally understand why the number 42 is the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything.

At least we can be consoled that Shrek died doing what he loved best and probably multitasking by posting on patrick.net at the same time.

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Patrick   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 6:38am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 9

I hope I'm not being too much of a jerk.

Here's Shrek's use of "Obambi" for a few days last week:

| 2011-09-12 10:03:10 |
| 2011-09-12 10:07:15 |
| 2011-09-12 18:26:25 |
| 2011-09-13 17:18:41 |
| 2011-09-14 19:51:28 |
| 2011-09-14 22:23:17 |
| 2011-09-14 22:26:22 |
| 2011-09-15 18:34:20 |
| 2011-09-15 18:36:20 |
| 2011-09-15 18:46:30 |
| 2011-09-16 10:52:46 |
| 2011-09-16 11:02:15 |
| 2011-09-16 11:38:23 |
| 2011-09-16 13:23:59 |
| 2011-09-16 14:49:54 |
| 2011-09-16 14:59:01 |

It's like a broken record.

Patrick   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 6:56am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 10

Birther refers to people who believe a specific thing that isn't true, and it describes what they believe.

Right-winger is an accurate discription of people on the right wing.

Obambi just radiates irrational hatred for Obama without reference to anything specific that he's done.

I suppose Obammunist does have a bit of descriptive meaning to it, but Obama is not even remotely communist. Some minor tweaks to health care and taxation are a far cry from actual communism.

Patrick   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 7:14am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 11

Using birther does imply hatred for, well, birthers. What else could you call them?

Teabagger is definitely out of bounds for polite company.

Bap33   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 8:25am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 12

what's in a name?

A rose, by any other name, is still a rose.

corntrollio   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 8:31am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 13

Patrick says

Birther refers to people who believe a specific thing that isn't true, and it describes what they believe.

Tinfoil-hatted Shrek also believed that Osama Bin Laden wasn't killed when the administration said so. This was stated more than once, and conspiracy theories were stated (e.g. died several years ago of kidney problems, for example).

This "I'm not a birther, I just asked for the birth certificate, said it was suspicious that he refused to provide it, questioned the documents that were provided, still engage in various tinfoil-hatted conspiracies about the birth certificate, I wanted a law to be passed requiring disclosure although I stated such a law was moot after Obama provided it, but I never actually stated that he was born on foreign soil even though I consistently questioned it" thing is just a smokescreen. This thread makes it quite obvious: http://patrick.net/?p=618795

It's like those politicians that say: "I have no reason to think that Obama was born outside the US, but I have not seen any proof." Come on.

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 9:19am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 14

MarsAttacks! says

Interesting how you can quote him given how all his posts are nuked and any context you wish to allude to can be applied. No wonder he re-registered to keep his account name from getting hijacked.

That thread pretty much sums up why shrek was viewed as a birther even though he claimed to not be a birther.

What do you think Mars? Before the release of the long form was there any credible documented proof that Obama was born in the US? Shrek did not believe that there was.

MarsAttacks! says

Since there was no body or even photographs of a body, nobody knows if he was killed or not.

What do you think Mars? Do you think Ben Laden is dead? Do you think that the account of him being killed by the SEALs was true?

MarsAttacks! says

In both cases, are you saying that people who don't trust politicians' unproven claims are 'tinfoil-hatted'?

From what I read that is not what is being said at all. Only specific theories, that are highly dubious, are being refereed to as "tinfoil-hatted". Not all distrust in politicians.

corntrollio   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 9:20am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 15

Patrick says

It's like a broken record.

Can you do a similar chart for "libruhl"? -- in its idiotic Nixonian sense of course, not its real meaning.

leoj707 says

From what I read that is not what is being said at all. Only specific theories, that are highly dubious, are being refereed to as "tinfoil-hatted". Not all distrust in politicians.

Yes, exactly -- that seemed pretty obvious from my statement. And while we're talking about definitions, this is exactly like how birther really refers to people who question whether Obama was born in the US in any form. Mars/Shrek is just messing with definitions, but not really defending the substantive argument.

terriDeaner   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 9:30am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 16

Confusing...

Patrick says

"For now" means he could re-register. So he's not really banned.

Ok, so Shrek has been given a time out? Did this start in a different thread?

Shrekgrinch says

Shrekgrinch is retiring, folks.

I am sure you'll miss me.

I only reserved the 'Shrekgrinch' alias to prevent some asshole (of which there are plenty on Patrick.net other than myself) from hijacking it.

Now Shrek has annouced his retirement... as Shrek...

MarsAttacks! says

Ack! Acck!

But is already back incarnated as MarsAttacks!?

What else did I miss?

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 9:33am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 17

terriDeaner says

What else did I miss?

I think that you are pretty much up to speed.

corntrollio   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 9:40am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 18

terriDeaner says

But is already back incarnated as MarsAttacks!?

What else did I miss?

Not much. I'm assuming we'll start getting faulty constitutional arguments next, since shrek/Mars is this guy:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-passionate-defender-of-what-he-imagines-c,2849/

Patrick   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 9:48am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 19

corntrollio says

Can you do a similar chart for "libruhl"? -- in its idiotic Nixonian sense of course, not its real meaning.

OK, recent use of libruhl by Shrekgrinch:

| 2011-09-07 09:29:58 |
| 2011-09-07 10:43:51 |
| 2011-09-07 11:37:25 |
| 2011-09-07 15:11:47 |
| 2011-09-07 15:19:55 |
| 2011-09-09 17:41:57 |
| 2011-09-09 17:44:16 |
| 2011-09-14 09:32:35 |
| 2011-09-14 22:18:36 |
| 2011-09-15 10:09:04 |
| 2011-09-15 10:13:34 |
| 2011-09-15 10:23:49 |
| 2011-09-15 10:49:33 |
| 2011-09-15 18:34:20 |
| 2011-09-15 18:46:30 |
| 2011-09-16 10:58:09 |
| 2011-09-16 11:02:15 |
| 2011-09-16 11:03:50 |
| 2011-09-16 11:12:22 |
| 2011-09-16 11:20:39 |
| 2011-09-16 14:49:54 |
| 2011-09-16 15:06:34 |
| 2011-09-16 15:11:27 |

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 9:56am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 20

MarsAttacks! says

terriDeaner says

But is already back incarnated as MarsAttacks!?

Nope. But Shrekgrinch was the one who got me to start reading Patrick.net.

Ack! Acck!

Ah, I see, you are just a fan.

Who, after years of reading, happened to start posting moments after shrek got booted, and are just defending his honor.

terriDeaner   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 9:58am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 21

MarsAttacks! says

Nope. But Shrekgrinch was the one who got me to start reading Patrick.net.

I think you're trying to fool me...

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 10:04am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 22

Mars you have had an account for years, and before today just one post in 2010. The suddenly after shrek getting erased a flurry of posts.

Are you one of these people?
Patrick says

Several times I got people telling me they avoid the forum because of Shrekgrinch.

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 10:07am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 23

MarsAttacks! says

What's with libruhl? Shrek was surprised by the resistance to that.

It was not so much "resistance" as it was confusion. I think you would be hard pressed to find a post where someone got defensive about it. I don't remember seeing any, but I did see several that were more along the lines of WTF is a "libruhl"?

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 10:18am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 24

MarsAttacks! says

leoj707 says

Are you one of these people?

Patrick says

Several times I got people telling me they avoid the forum because of Shrekgrinch.

No. Why?

Ack! Acck!

Because someone who had been avoiding the forums might choose now to start posting.

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 10:23am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 25

MarsAttacks! says

I wouldn't know. Nobody knows that there are any documented proof that I was born here except for those who have asked for it and that I agreed to provide it, like the DMV, Passport Office, the county when I applied for a marriage license, etc.

Yeah, and Obama provided documentation (the infamous "short-form") that could be used as proof of birth at the DMV, Passport Office, etc. That and several other items should have been enough for anyone to "know" that he was indeed born here.

Shrek remained unconvinced.

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 10:24am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 26

MarsAttacks! says

leoj707 says

Because someone who had been avoiding the forums might choose now to start posting.

Avoid the forums?

Ack! Acck!

Yes, as per:
Patrick says

Several times I got people telling me they avoid the forum because of Shrekgrinch.

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 10:27am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 27

MarsAttacks! says

leoj707 says

Shrek remained unconvinced.

Yes, I know. He can be rather obstinate that way.

Ack! Acck!

And it was that obstinacy in the face of overwhelming evidence that convinced others to believe he is a birther.

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 10:35am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 28

MarsAttacks! says

I don't see how.

The reasoning for people believing that shrek is a birther has already been addressed:
corntrollio says

This "I'm not a birther, I just asked for the birth certificate, said it was suspicious that he refused to provide it, questioned the documents that were provided, still engage in various tinfoil-hatted conspiracies about the birth certificate, I wanted a law to be passed requiring disclosure although I stated such a law was moot after Obama provided it, but I never actually stated that he was born on foreign soil even though I consistently questioned it" thing is just a smokescreen. This thread makes it quite obvious: http://patrick.net/?p=618795

It's like those politicians that say: "I have no reason to think that Obama was born outside the US, but I have not seen any proof." Come on.

You can choose to disagree with this reasoning, but there it is. That is why people think that shrek is a birther. Unless you have some new evidence, not already gone over ad nauseum, I don't think you are going to have much luck convincing people shrek is not a birther.

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 4:02pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 29

MarsAttacks! says

I am just not seeing the reasoning you mention, is all.

I don't think that I can spell it out any more clearly than done by corntrollio and the tread referenced. In the thread you can see all the relevant shrek quotes.

Dan8267   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 4:28pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 30

Patrick says

Actually, I got one too many complaints about Shrek so I've deleted him for now.

Wow, I didn't even know he was deleted. Good timing on this thread. I guess that explains why he didn't respond. I was shocked because I thought his ego would force him to, especially after I photochopped that terminator furby.

Patrick says

Obambi just radiates irrational hatred for Obama without reference to anything specific that he's done.

Exactly. If your gonna hate a politician, have a good reason to. They sure as hell supply many.

corntrollio says

Tinfoil-hatted Shrek also believed that Osama Bin Laden wasn't killed when the administration said so.

What's weird is that in my posting In Soviet Russia Bachmann is a professor of current affairs Shrek said "Claiming OBL is dead...but doesn't have a body or even photos proving it....no check."

I took that to mean he was implying Bin Laden was still alive, so I replied:

If Bid Laden were not dead and the United States government tried to convince the world that he was, then Bid Laden would simply release a video of himself and make the U.S. government look really, really stupid.

As such, any Bid Laden is still alive conspiracy simply makes no sense.

Then Shrek kept claiming that he didn't think Bid Laden was still alive. It was like he wasn't even aware of what he just wrote.

Also, I just noticed that now all of Shrek's postings are gone. I'm not sure that's a good idea because now our responses to his postings don't make sense.

terriDeaner says

But is already back incarnated as MarsAttacks!?

Possibly. The MarsAttacks! account was only used to post once before Shrek got deleted, and that posting was over a year ago. Perhaps it was an account Shrek made and just let sit idle until his main account got deleted. In any case, MarsAttacks! is so far being much nicer than Shrek was. If that lasts, perhaps it doesn't matter if its Shrek.

Personally, I don't mind debating ultra-conservatives. I just wished they'd make more sense in their postings. It's hard to rationally debate with someone who has no grasp on reality.

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 4:34pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 31

Dan8267 says

Then Shrek kept claiming that he didn't think Bid Laden was still alive. It was like he wasn't even aware of what he just wrote.

Also, I just noticed that now all of Shrek's postings are gone. I'm not sure that's a good idea because now our responses to his postings don't make sense.

Yeah, I remember that exchange, classic shrek. I would not worry too much about responses not making sense. With a lot of them I don't know if adding the original shrek comments would have helped the conversation make more sense.

Dan8267   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 4:35pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 32

leoj707 says

WTF is a "libruhl"?

Proof that conservatives aren't as creative as liberals. That's why there aren't nearly as many conservative comedians. Think about it.

leo707   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 4:36pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 33

Dan8267 says

In any case, MarsAttacks! is so far being much nicer than Shrek was. If that lasts, perhaps it doesn't matter if its Shrek.

I agree.

Dan8267   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 4:43pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 34

leoj707 says

With a lot of them I don't know if adding the original shrek comments would have helped the conversation make more sense.

It would at least show that one side of the conversation was rational. I'd always use clear, concise arguments that specifically address Shrek's claims and I'd back them up with reputable, expert sources like American Political Science Review and then Shrek would quote a source that had claimed Plato was taught by Barney the Purple Dinosaur.

Shrek's arguments were the best demonstration of why people should not vote Republican anymore, which is a shame because that party didn't always suck and now we're left only one party that couldn't even tie its own shoes.

Nomograph   Thu, 22 Sep 2011, 11:38pm PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 35

MarsAttacks! says

shrek

MarsAttacks! says

Obambi

MarsAttacks! says

Birther

MarsAttacks! says

Shrekgrinch

MarsAttacks! says

birth certificate

OMG. This is hilarious.

Patrick   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 2:18am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 36

Dan8267 says

Also, I just noticed that now all of Shrek's postings are gone. I'm not sure that's a good idea because now our responses to his postings don't make sense.

Yes, that was too rash on my part, and I regret it. I could recover from backup, but that's work. OK, I'll see how much work it is.

Dan8267 says

conservatives aren't as creative as liberals. That's why there aren't nearly as many conservative comedians. Think about it.

That gets very close to the core of the difference, IMHO. The two sides just talk right past each other, because they're operating on different wavelengths. They cannot actually communicate. The liberals try to talk about facts and the conservatives couldn't care less about facts. The conservatives use code words to talk about their emotions, and in particular about their hate for liberals who use facts to make them look dumb.

When Gore was debating Bush, and Gore went into a bunch of tedious facts, he lost the debate right there. Bush was great at pushing the hate button, and just did that one trick over and over.

Stephen Colbert captured this difference perfectly:

That's where the truth lies, right down here in the gut. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. Now, I know some of you are going to say, "I did look it up, and that's not true." That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut. I did. My gut tells me that's how our nervous system works.

Creativity and knowledge of the facts tend to be on the left, and this makes people on the right intimidated. Except for Gore, not a creative guy. When the right wingers get creatively mocked (as by Colbert) for getting the facts wrong, they perceive it as "arrogance", purely on an emotional level. As a friend said to me, it's like talking to a dog. All they hear is a tone of voice, and the tone is saying "you dumb dog".

Bush was obviously stupid and resentful of the better educated, but that was his big selling point. He represented the right wing perfectly.

My analysis is of course itself arrogant and a good example of what I'm talking about. It's not going to win any converts from the right. They would rather pay higher taxes than the rich and go without health care than be humiliated.

leo707   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 2:45am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 37

Patrick says

That gets very close to the core of the difference, IMHO. The two sides just talk right past each other, because they're operating on different wavelengths. They cannot actually communicate. The liberals try to talk about facts and the conservatives couldn't care less about facts. The conservatives use code words to talk about their emotions, and about their hate in particular.

Yeah, but I think that this is a relatively recent phenomena. Not too long ago both conservative and liberals had some reason and logic behind their views, and one could agree or disagree with that underlying but it was there. Just in the recent years (10-15?) the conservative perspective has become less reality based, and more gut based.

It is kind of funny how liberals, generally speaking, are spineless and let themselves be walked upon, but basically the moderate conservatives have done the same thing by letting the extreme seize control of their party.

lurker   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 3:31am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 38

Wow. Miss the forum for a few weeks and all heck breaks loose. That'll learn me to rethink my priorities - Patrick.net first and grad school second!

I'm sure Shrek will be around again in some form or other, just like the devil in Devil's Advocate.

Dan8267   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 3:38am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 39

Patrick says

The conservatives use code words to talk about their emotions, and in particular about their hate for liberals who use facts to make them look dumb.

They also use code words to mask their racism. "Kenya" is code for "African" and "black". The tea party members would love for there to be an exception to "only natural born Americans can run for president" in the case of Arnold Schwarzenegger.

"Elite" is code word for uppity. So guess what "Elite Kenyan" means.

Tea Party Codewords has some good examples of this.

The CNN Tea Party and Republican Presidential Debate shows that the Tea Party isn't actually a party. It's just the most extreme subset of the Republican party. That's why the national debt didn't mean anything until a Democrat got elected.

Dan8267   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 3:43am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 40

Patrick says

Yes, that was too rash on my part, and I regret it. I could recover from backup, but that's work. OK, I'll see how much work it is.

Rule 76 of databases, never delete. Instead use a column to mark rows as deleted: either a boolean or a nullable "DeletedTimestamp" DateTime field. That way you can easily undelete.

¥   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 3:50am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 41

Dan8267 says

That's why the national debt didn't mean anything until a Democrat got elected.

the deficit was tailing down during Bush's second term . . .

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=2ou

Of course, TOTAL debt in the system doubled, 2000 - 2007:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=2ov

so that was were the Bush economy really got its oomph, not the low taxes.

Low taxes aren't doing shit for us now.

iwog   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 4:36am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 42

MarsAttacks! says

But after reading a lot of this thread, I am now starting to believe some of the stories he told me that I didn't think was possible...

I see. So which view from which liberal here did you find most outrageous? Since you were so amazed, it shouldn't be hard to tell us a single example.

leo707   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 4:39am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 43

MarsAttacks! says

Shrek believes that Bin Laden died in some cave of natural causes years ago...when the government suddenly stopped pouring resources into finding him like they were doing before. So, what he wrote made sense IF he explained that as well.

Yeah, I remember him writing that, but he wrote it after the comment where it sounded like he believed that that Ben Laden was still alive.

shrekgrinch says

Claiming OBL is dead...but doesn't have a body or even photos proving it....

That sounds a lot like someone who thinks Ben Laden is still alive.

When people (and reasonably so) interpreted that as shrek believing Ben Laden was alive, all shrek had to say was, "oops, I did not mean to come off like that. I actually believe..." But, no always wanting to play the poor persecuted victim he once again choose to argue an irrational point of view. He made it into a much bigger deal than it had to be. It is almost as if he does it just for the drama.

Vicente   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 4:49am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 44

leoj707 says

"oops, I did not mean to come off like that. I actually believe..."

This is stolen from Glenn Beck's playbook. Example Beckisms:

Beck went on the morning show "Fox & Friends," where he ruminated on Obama's racist proclivities. "I'm not saying that he doesn't like white people. I'm saying he has a problem. He has a -- this guy is, I believe, a racist."

Another time, he warned that the new "smart grid" electricity system could be used by the government to take "critical information out of your house." Then came the usual disclaimer: "I'm not saying that Obama or the Democrats or the Republicans or anybody are going to take this technology and use it this way. However, you know . . . who knows what could happen?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/30/AR2010093005268.html

Yeah Beck also liked to float his loony-tune theories as though he's just spent precious minutes of expensive air-time talking passionately about something he wants to remain distanced from. Consider it a disclaimer, here this might cause cancer but I want to make sure you can't hold me liable.

leo707   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 5:16am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 45

MarsAttacks! says

Shrek tells me Nomo is not to be trusted when it comes to quoting people in context. Who's Nomo?

This exact quote was taken by 3-4 people Nomo being one.

Nomograph is a frequent poster on Pnet, look through Nomo's posting history and decide for yourself:
http://patrick.net/wp-admin/edit-comments.php?a=1948&submit=Search

Many different people are quoted.

leo707   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 5:29am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 46

MarsAttacks! says

He DOES like to say things constructed in 'logical trap's that trick people into thinking he said something that he actually did not.

So.... shrek want's to trick people into thinking he said something that he did not, so that he can then whine and complain about being a victim when others "fall" for the trick?

Patrick   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 5:38am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 47

OK, Shrek comments and posts are recovered, at least up to 16 Sep. I don't have a backup after that one.

http://patrick.net/?author=6538

Dan8267 says

Rule 76 of databases, never delete. Instead use a column to mark rows as deleted: either a boolean or a nullable "DeletedTimestamp" DateTime field. That way you can easily undelete.

What are the other 75 rules? I think I probably need to learn those too.

leo707   Fri, 23 Sep 2011, 5:45am PDT   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 48

I don't think that I have ever seen shrek use a proper "logic trap" in conversation. Often he has trouble with just the basic logic, and first to set a logical trap you need to have a logical argument, and facts.

Implication, metaphor, etc. are not "traps" or "tricks". They can be cleverly used, but one using them should expect others to pickup on the insinuation. It might seem like magic to some, but you can actually say things in the English language without directly or explicitly stating them.

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