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OMG! Shrek is dead!


By Dan8267   Follow   Wed, 21 Sep 2011, 6:23am PDT   26,291 views   328 comments   Watch (1)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

The great tragedy is that it is only now after his passing that I realize how much I miss the little guy and his insane rants. Let us all bow our heads and remember the fond times we had with him. Let us remember his sacrifice, which allows us to finally understand why the number 42 is the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything.

At least we can be consoled that Shrek died doing what he loved best and probably multitasking by posting on patrick.net at the same time.

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elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sat, 1 Oct 2011, 7:35am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 249

Let's get technical - since believing is a belief system, choosing not to believe is also a belief system. Therefore, one can't choose not to believe without believing...

I paid attention in philosophy class. However, it holds very little relevence to reality. It's just a way for someone to believe that they've won an argument on patnet.

oops - forgot to add:
-ellie, the voice of irrational reason. ;)

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Sat, 1 Oct 2011, 9:37am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 250

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

I firmly believe, no, make that know that no god, as defined by any of the monotheistic or polytheistic religions in human history exists.

prove it

I already did in another thread that went way off topic. Here's a copy of the relevant part of that thread.

Any proof must of course start with a definition of god. I'll use the standard monotheistic definition, the meaning that people typically mean when they try to use god to justify or demand something.

God is a being that satisfies the following conditions.
1. God is all powerful. He can do anything.
2. God is all knowing. Nothing is beyond his knowledge.
3. God is all good. Whatever the fuck that means.

Condition three is vague in the least, but it doesn't matter since I can disprove god using only the first two conditions.

If god is all knowing, then he knows everything he is going to do. If god knows what he is going to do, he cannot change what he's going to do. If god can't change what he's going to do, then he is not all powerful.

Ergo, omniscience contradicts omnipotence. Geez, that wasn't nearly as hard as you made it out to be.

I think I can do it with only one of the conditions of god. Let me try...

If god is all powerful he can create an immovable object. If god is all powerful, he can move any object. Contradiction. It turns out that omnipotence itself is a meaningless concept. The universe doesn't support such a naive idea.

Well, I might as well give three proofs that god doesn't exist.

If god exists, he is subject to the laws of nature. Otherwise he could not interact with our universe as I showed earlier. If god is subject to the laws of nature, he cannot be omnipotent by definition or omniscient by the Hisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Darn it, I just can't stop disproving god. It's so much fun. Let's go with a theoretical argument.

In order for something to be true, it must, at least in principle, be provable. Something that cannot be proven even in principle is by definition false. So when you agnostics say the existence of god is not provable or disprovable, you are in fact saying that god does not exist. Of course, you are welcome to present an experiment which would, depending on its results, either prove or disprove the existence of god. However, I doubt you will.

If you can't define god, then it is meaningless bullshit. If you do define god, then I'll most certainly either find a logical proof that your god doesn't exist, or I'll show that no one means what you mean by god when they pray or preach.

Atheists have been silent for too long, and as a result the world had to endure the Dark Ages, the Spanish Inquisition, the Catholic/Protest wars of England, the genocide of the Native Americans, the Holocaust, and so many other needless tragedies. Now we live under the threat of nuclear annihilation and ecological collapse. It's time that atheists stop tolerating the forces of irrationality that will lead to the destruction of our species.

Of course, I don't expect to convert anyone who believes in a benevolent sky daddy to reason. However, I'd consider it a victory to prevent that thought virus from infecting people in the next generation. That's the way to kill racism, and that's the way to kill all other bad ideas. Prevent them from infecting new generations.

I make no apologies for trying to convince the next generation of leaders that reason, not faith, is the key to humanity salvation. The last thing I want to see is some Christine O'Donnell pushing the big red button in order to hasten the rapture.

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Sat, 1 Oct 2011, 9:48am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 251

leoj707 says

Because I am God, I could easily prove this to you Bap, but first you must prove something for me.

Bap, prove that I am not God.

leoj707, I will only accept your proof of god if you accept polytheism. After all, I am clearly also god as proven by the fact that many women have shouted "Oh god" at me during love making bouts.

Now before some fool tries to argue that it is a contradiction for me to claim to be both god and an atheist, let me explain why it's not. Although ironic, it is not a contradiction for god to be an atheist. I simply do not believe in myself.

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Sat, 1 Oct 2011, 9:53am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 252

elliemae says

Let's get technical - since believing is a belief system, choosing not to believe is also a belief system. Therefore, one can't choose not to believe without believing...

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sat, 1 Oct 2011, 10:14am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 253

As you wish, Dan.

p.s. You're gonna get it now, I'm "friending" your ass.

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sat, 1 Oct 2011, 10:37am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 254

No particular reason, just thought it was funny.

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Sat, 1 Oct 2011, 1:45pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 255

Slinkies are good for demonstrating wave theory.

PersainCAT   befriend   ignore   Sat, 1 Oct 2011, 3:21pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 256

iwog says

There simply is no debate on the right. We'd all like to think the right-wing in this country is ideologically based and sincere, however the truth is that NO ONE on this board or any other board is capable of having a rational calm discussion on the merits of what Republicans want right now.

hey...i've shown no irrationality. and i can defend the republican side of things.

Bap33   befriend   ignore   Sun, 2 Oct 2011, 2:31am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 257

Dan8267 says

If god knows what he is going to do, he cannot change what he's going to do.

absurd statement, even for you.

Bap33   befriend   ignore   Sun, 2 Oct 2011, 2:35am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 258

marcus says

CL says



One can't "not believe" in something, really, can they?


Sure they can . Many choose not to believe in God, or to live their life based on the existence of and worship of God. But this is a far cry from asserting with certainty that God does not exist. That sounds like religious dogma to me. It's very much like some Christians who arrogantly feel that what they have found to be true for themselves is true for everyone, and that they need to spread the word so that others can have the same enlightened experience.


(although in that case it might not be as much pure ego as the atheists assertions, because they believe they are helping the other person to be saved. I guess the atheist feels that they are making the world a better place too so....yeah, it's very similar. )


Atheism, it's the anti-religion religion.

great post marcus

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sun, 2 Oct 2011, 3:16am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 259

Bap33 says

great post marcus

Yes, it was a great post. But remember, just as there's no proof that God exists, there's no proof that he doesn't. It's all beliefs.

Patrick   befriend   ignore   Sun, 2 Oct 2011, 3:28am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 260

elliemae says

just as there's no proof that God exists, there's no proof that he doesn't. It's all beliefs.

If you define God as "a being who can do anything" then I think Dan did just prove that that particular God can't exist.

Think of it this way: Can God create a rock so big that he can't move it?

If he can, then there's something God can't do. He can't move the rock.
If he can't, then there's something God can't do. He can't create such a rock.

Either way, there's something God can't do. So the God who can do anything must not exist.

This proof depends on how you define God though. Maybe your definition of God does not include such absolute omnipotence.

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sun, 2 Oct 2011, 4:08am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 261

You are so right - and I do believe that was a George Carlin routine to some extent.

I never thought of it that way, tho. Cool.

marcus   befriend   ignore   Sun, 2 Oct 2011, 4:36am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 262

elliemae says

But remember, just as there's no proof that God exists, there's no proof that he doesn't. It's all beliefs.

For the agnostic who says "I don't know" it's only believing in the truth.

Patrick says

If you define God as "a being who can do anything"

As far as I know, only children and some fundamentalists believe in God as a "being." Even most who practice in some organized religion have a more sophisticated and ambiguous view of what God is or might be, that is, if they stick with religion as intelligent adults (newsflash - there are many who do - see the linked video.) That is, it is not incongruous to be religious and to simultaneously see God as beyond our comprehension, or even to be religious and simultaneously somewhat agnostic about Gods existence.

Have you seen the website "BigThink ?"

They have a great series on beliefs. Much of their content is in brief video form such as this. See the others in the series on the right side.

http://bigthink.com/series/38/series_item/4821

(Note: various views explored - including atheism.)

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sun, 2 Oct 2011, 4:52am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 263

Totally off-topic -

I just went out back to ask a farm animal why she was standing at a closed gate into her pen when there was an open one about 15 feet away - please note this is a rhetorical question as

1) She doesn't speak english
2) She's not exactly intelligent, as evidenced by her standing at a closed gate...

A squirrel was stealing one of my squash's and froze in an attempt to blend into the background, waited a few minutes and then picked it up and ran down its hole. It was so damn cool to watch.

Meanwhile, a not-so-smart farm animal stood patiently at the closed gate...

Bap33   befriend   ignore   Sun, 2 Oct 2011, 6:56am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 264

elliemae says

Bap33 says



great post marcus


Yes, it was a great post. But remember, just as there's no proof that God exists, there's no proof that he doesn't. It's all beliefs.


Eschew Obfuscation

That was the point we all made to Dan and Leo just a few million lines above, and they said, "No, Bap, You big dumb ape, we do not believe in your sky daddy because we use nothing but "logic" to explain all things!! You only believe in sky daddys because you are a buffoon!!" (paraphrased a little)

love the dog story, by the way.

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sun, 2 Oct 2011, 8:46am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 265

Patrick says

If you define God as "a being who can do anything" then I think Dan did just prove that that particular God can't exist.
Think of it this way: Can God create a rock so big that he can't move it?
If he can, then there's something God can't do. He can't move the rock.
If he can't, then there's something God can't do. He can't create such a rock.
Either way, there's something God can't do. So the God who can do anything must not exist.
This proof depends on how you define God though. Maybe your definition of God does not include such absolute omnipotence.

That's what I meant when I said elliemae says

You are so right - and I do believe that was a George Carlin routine to some extent.
I never thought of it that way, tho. Cool.

Most people that I know believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient - which by logic, Patrick proves incorrect.

But the thing is, people believe in God much of the time - and it's irrational from a scientific point of view. That doesn't mean it's wrong. Remember that I live in a land where there are uber religious people living alongside heathens such as myself.

Religion is like politics - everyone has their own beliefs and that doesn't make them wrong or right. It's only when they attempt to cram it down someone else's throat that it becomes wrong. I respect that your opinions about many things will be different than mine - it makes the world more interesting.

Bap33 says

love the dog story, by the way.

Goats. The dog is even more apathetic to squirrel intruders, but she is effective in stealing whatever the cats have killed.

Patrick   befriend   ignore   Sun, 2 Oct 2011, 9:16am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 266

Patrick says

Think of it this way: Can God create a rock so big that he can't move it?

I think I first heard that one on Saturday Night Live, could possibly be from a Carlin routine. I had to LOL at some of these:

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/22782.George_Carlin

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Sun, 2 Oct 2011, 10:08am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 267

I loved the Hippy Dippy Weatherman - Al Sleet.

"Tonight's forcast: Dark. Continued mostly dark, with scattered light in the morning hours.

It's 70 degrees at the airport - which is stupid, 'cause I don't know anyone who lives at the airport."

But the best will always be the seven words you can't say on television. I memorized it when I was twelve - got my mount rinsed out with soap, too.

CL   befriend   ignore   Mon, 3 Oct 2011, 3:27am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 268

marcus says

CL says

One can't "not believe" in something, really, can they?

Sure they can . Many choose not to believe in God, or to live their life based on the existence of and worship of God. But this is a far cry from asserting with certainty that God does not exist. That sounds like religious dogma to me. It's very much like some Christians who arrogantly feel that what they have found to be true for themselves is true for everyone, and that they need to spread the word so that others can have the same enlightened experience.

(although in that case it might not be as much pure ego as the atheists assertions, because they believe they are helping the other person to be saved. I guess the atheist feels that they are making the world a better place too so....yeah, it's very similar. )

Atheism, it's the anti-religion religion.

Philosophically, as Ellie pointed out, making positive statements about that which is unknowable is belief. If an Atheist believes there is no God, it's still a belief, unless it can be proven that there cannot be a God anywhere, even a little tribal god on Earth, Space Jesus, or a detached transcendent God. Since it is all unknowable, anyone who asserts that it is anything but unknowable is making a positive assertion.

That's why the Tao says, "Those who know don't say, those who say don't know".

No need to reply! :)

leo707   befriend   ignore   Mon, 3 Oct 2011, 5:04am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 269

Bap33 says

elliemae says

Bap33 says

great post marcus

Yes, it was a great post. But remember, just as there's no proof that God exists, there's no proof that he doesn't. It's all beliefs.

Eschew Obfuscation

That was the point we all made to Dan and Leo just a few million lines above, and they said, "No, Bap, You big dumb ape, we do not believe in your sky daddy because we use nothing but "logic" to explain all things!! You only believe in sky daddys because you are a buffoon!!" (paraphrased a little)

love the dog story, by the way.

Bap your paraphrasing is grossly inaccurate, while you indeed may be a "big dumb ape" --as you put it-- no where in the above posts did I say that I do not believe in "your sky daddy". For one I don't know which of the sky daddies/mommies you have chosen to believe in.

Also, I have been very clear that religion/atheism is all beliefs. I don't see why this seems to be some shocking revelation to you. The big difference that you seem unable to grasp is that religion is a belief contrary to the evidence, while atheism is a belief because there is no evidence to believe otherwise.

Now when I say religion, I am not referring to a "clock maker god(s)" theory, for whom there is no evidence for or against, but that is another discussion.

Just in-case you did not get it the first time around:
Your sky daddy = A belief contrary to the body of evidence
Atheism = A belief, because there is no evidence to suggest otherwise

So, just like you choose to be an atheist about Thor --still not sure what god(s) you believe in so I could be wrong here-- because the possibility that Thor exists lacks credible evidence; atheists choose to not believe in any gods.

I hope this clears things up for you a little bit.

BTW, I am still waiting for your proof that I am not god.

leo707   befriend   ignore   Mon, 3 Oct 2011, 5:30am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 270

marcus says

Sure they can . Many choose not to believe in God, or to live their life based on the existence of and worship of God. But this is a far cry from asserting with certainty that God does not exist. That sounds like religious dogma to me. It's very much like some Christians who arrogantly feel that what they have found to be true for themselves is true for everyone, and that they need to spread the word so that others can have the same enlightened experience.

What about when a kid asks you if Santa Clause is real? Do you say, "maybe"? So as to be impartial and reasonable concerning the existence of Santa?

So, if I assert, with certainty, that the next time you step on a sidewalk you will not fly up into the air. Does that sound like religious dogma? What if there was a group of people that thought you very possibly would fly into the air, and I was making my assertion contrary to their beliefs [ http://www.theonion.com/articles/evangelical-scientists-refute-gravity-with-new-int,1778/ ]? Would my comment be religious dogma then?

No one can prove that you will not go flying into the air, it just might happen. Would you remain purely agnostic on the idea that you may or may not go flying into the air the next time your foot touches a sidewalk?

Philosophically one can never be certain about anything, but the probability of some events being "true" is so close to zero they might as well be untrue. In fact it is logical and wise for us to operate as if they are untrue (this is not just restricted to religion). Is knowledge so loose weave that people are stepping out of second story windows, expecting to gently float to the ground? They might, who knows! No one can prove that the next person to step out will not float.

I don't see the big deal of some people saying that something is untrue when the chance of it being true is that low.

I really don't care what people believe. What consenting adults do in privacy is their own business, and I understand that the religious mystical experience can be very real to people. What annoys me is when people legislate their religious system, or thrust their beliefs into the lives of others.

leo707   befriend   ignore   Mon, 3 Oct 2011, 5:44am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 271

CL says

That's why the Tao says, "Those who know don't say, those who say don't know".

Doesn't this pearl of wisdom invalidate every-other thing written in the Tao Te Ching? Or is it implied that while those who know "don't say", they write a book of wisdom! Then they never talk about their book.

thunderlips11   befriend   ignore   Mon, 3 Oct 2011, 8:29am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 272

elliemae says

Organized religion is often about who is more reverent and believes the most.

BINGO!

You never see people gathered together in a building chanting

"All Hail the several organic elements of the Periodic Table!"
"Friction causes heat, oh yes it does, I believe!"
"The Sun appears to rise in the East, and Set in the West!"
"Go out and tell the world, that at room temperature, H2O is a liquid!"

In other words, the faithful doth praise too much.

Vicente   befriend   ignore   Mon, 3 Oct 2011, 9:12am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 273

So if I get cancer, should I sit around all day and pray it gets better? There are a lot of people that think so. AFAICR, the effectiveness of that method is equal to a placebo. Me, I'll take science any day. As shoddy and iffy and human as it is still, it's got a better record of success.

marcus   befriend   ignore   Mon, 3 Oct 2011, 11:26am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 274

CL says

No need to reply! :)

I see what you did there.

marcus   befriend   ignore   Mon, 3 Oct 2011, 11:34am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike