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OMG! Shrek is dead!


By Dan8267   Follow   Wed, 21 Sep 2011, 1:23pm   19,819 views   328 comments
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The great tragedy is that it is only now after his passing that I realize how much I miss the little guy and his insane rants. Let us all bow our heads and remember the fond times we had with him. Let us remember his sacrifice, which allows us to finally understand why the number 42 is the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything.

At least we can be consoled that Shrek died doing what he loved best and probably multitasking by posting on patrick.net at the same time.

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  1. elliemae


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    209   3:08pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    ellie, please comment on Dan's last few posts of hate.

    Sorry, been gone. I'll go back & read it and will post some ever-delightful, yet stupid, comment.

  2. elliemae


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    210   3:15pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    okay, I read them. It's Dan's opinion, and I can't agree that they're messages of hate.

    Bap, I haven't read too much positive stuff about the tea party. I've met some t-baggers (Yep, that's what I call them, as they've called themselves the same) and they were fairly angry, extreme right wingers. I don't even think that they're republicans, more like republicans to the second power.

    Of course, the only t-baggers I've met are from small Utah towns - and the state is run by the very republican conservative mormon church that was able to block gays from being married in California.

  3. leo707


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    211   3:17pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    elliemae says

    Of course, the only t-baggers I've met are from small Utah towns - and the state is run by the very republican conservative mormon church that was able to block gays from being married in California.

    Didn't they do that in Hawaii also? So much for States rights.

  4. elliemae


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    212   3:45pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    My responses are limited becasue I am trying to make my removal from PatNet more challenging than Shrek or ToT. So far, so good. Have a great day Patrick!

    Bap,
    I sincerely hope that you don't leave, and that your goal isn't to be removed. However, if you would like to be removed it's a simple process.

    All you must do is post some personal attacks against another poster. Shrek did it constantly, and TPB/ToT did it at the end too.

    Patnet is all about the talk. It's okay to feel passionately about something, but it must be discussed in a socially acceptable manner. Attack the post, not the poster.

    I did enjoy Dan's post, although I also disagree about the religious thing. I know many super-intelligent people who are deeply religious - but I also live in the state of Denial (I mean the state of Utah).

    Also - I smoked pot much of my life, don't now because of my work's policies, but it hasn't had any effect either way on my life. I view it like drinking, except less calories and a lot less puking.

  5. CL


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    213   4:12pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    leoj707 says

    Religion is inherently illogical, it can not be proven through logic. One must have faith in order to believe in a religion.

    same thing is true of atheism. sorry for hitting you with logic in less than 5,000 words.

    Thank you PersianCAT for using your powers and abilities for good. Seriously, thank you.

    Yes and no. Religion is inherently not logical. Religion (in fact, nearly all published, discovered, widely embraced religion) turns logic on its head via paradox.

    Logic doesn't support laying down one's life a la Christ, nor any of his maxims (the last will be first, the first will be last).

    The whole point of religion is that logic fails you, and that faith of some kind is to replace it.

    That's why so many take it up to abuse others. They've found an "in" to exploit---the adherents' abandonment of logic.

    (I can speak to the other great faiths, but chose Christian thought since it's widely understood on this forum, and in America)

    Atheism can be viewed as a faith as well, since one cannot disprove God's existence. Therefore, the only truly logical answer is to say "I don't know", or agnosticism.

  6. Dan8267


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    214   4:23pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (5)   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    Dan, you are a great writer and a bad liar.

    Once again, Bap33, you demonstrate a complete inability to follow even the simplest logical sequence. The statement "I was raised Catholic and taught by viscous Catholic nuns who would beat you with a ruler if you misbehaved" does not imply that I was beaten with a ruler. I could have been one of the boys who did behave after seeing someone else misbehave. We "elitist" can learn from other people's mistakes.

    Are you trying to parody the square root of two example conversation?

    Bap33 says

    You should take a job getting paid by the word ... like a lawyer. That fibbing ability and anti-God thing works well with lawyering too, don't it?

    INTJs do make great lawyers. However, many of us including myself are repulsed by the field because of all the scumbags in it.

    I see you're still sticking with the whole "anti-god" thing. Was my post too long for your attention span? Did you stop reading when I started to use "big words"? Btw, spouting religious crap is more likely to help a lawyer than hurt him in our country. There's an old tale... A criminal standing trial tries to persuade the court to be lenient by claiming "I found Jesus." The judge asks the defendant, "when did you find Jesus?" He replies, "Right after the police found me!" [No one claims to be an atheist to garner sympathy from an American court or jury.]

    I will concede that being able to lie convincingly is a trait well exercised by lawyers. Unfortunately, I never did develop that particular talent. As a result, I probably wouldn't make it in a legal, sales, or marketing position, and I certainly will never become a CEO of a major company. The good thing about being an engineer is that I don't have to lie to do my job. I talk to computers all day.

    Bap33 says

    By the way, humilty is not your strong point is it?

    False humility is not. As an INTJ, I know exactly what fields I'm an expert in and which ones I am not. You touchy-feely types tend to think you're an expert in everything and so you express incorrect ideas in every field. INTJs tend to ask questions in fields in which they are not experts and share knowledge in the fields in which they are. INTJs love sharing knowledge and understanding.

    To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an aura of "definiteness", of self-confidence. This self-confidence, sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a very specific rather than a general nature; its source lies in the specialized knowledge systems that most INTJs start building at an early age. When it comes to their own areas of expertise -- and INTJs can have several -- they will be able to tell you almost immediately whether or not they can help you, and if so, how. INTJs know what they know, and perhaps still more importantly, they know what they don't know.

    Others may falsely perceive the INTJ as being rigid and set in their ways. Nothing could be further from the truth, because the INTJ is committed to always finding the objective best strategy to implement their ideas. The INTJ is usually quite open to hearing an alternative way of doing something.

    By the way, spelling is not your strong point is it?

    Well, I should be nice and thank you for the compliment "you are a great writer", assuming it was meant sincerely. It's the first correct thing you said. So as a peace offering, I'll give you a sincere and valuable piece of advice. The way to become a good writer is to become a good reader.

    PersainCAT says

    Though in the future u may want to avoid things like "they believe in things like torture. "

    I really wish I could, but when the majority of Republicans believe in torture, I cannot. "A time comes when silence is betrayal." - MLK, Jr.

    It's really sad that in the 21st century, we still use medieval justice.

    PersainCAT says

    when u say smart people know religion is crap u imply that the no intelligent person is religious

    Ok, maybe I could phrase that better. Most intelligent people reach the conclusion that religion is crap. There is a strong correlation between atheism and intelligence and between atheism and education. Some highly intelligent are religious even today. I do not understand how. They must compartmentalize like crazy to hold two contradicting beliefs at once. Physics and biology leave no room for a god in nature.

    Bellingham Bob says

    Well, we INTPs know that precision is for self-delusion.

    Luckily INTPs rarely become heart surgeons. Precision is what got us to moon. Precision is what allows us to run a world-wide banking system over the Internet that involves billions of dollars of transactions a second without losing a penny.

    Lack of precision causes rovers to crash in to Mars, police to break into the wrong house using a search warrant with an incorrect address (which happens surprising often), the Pentagon to lose $2.3 trillion — that's $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America.

    Meanwhile, online banking software handles far more money than that and keeps track of every penny. Precision is necessary for our modern society and economy to function. Aren't you glad that we programmers are precise?

    Of course, none of this should be construed as a put down of INTPs. They make great scientists. Albert Einstein and Charles Darwin were INTPs.

    thunderlips11 says

    Damn Dan! That was an epic post.

    Thanks. I'm no Charlie Sheen, but I like to think I have house-cat blood.

    leoj707 says

    Dan, I am not a fan of the super long posts, but yours was well worth the read.

    Thanks for staying up late.

    Also, thanks. It's nice to know that some people get what I'm saying. I usually only hear from the ultra-cons.

    Patrick says

    No, it's just the MySQL "text" type. Don't even know how much that can hold.

    From Stackoverflow,

    The VARCHAR(MAX) type is a replacement for TEXT. The basic difference is that a TEXT type will always store the data in a blob whereas the VARCHAR(MAX) type will attempt to store the data directly in the row unless it exceeds the 8k limitation and at that point it stores it in a blob.

    Stackoverflow is great.

    Patrick says

    He's arguing from an emotional level of dislike, where facts are irrelevant... But pissing you off does make him feel better about himself, so one point for Bap33. He did what he intended to do.

    True, but my goal is to demonstrate to everyone else that Bap33's position is wrong on many levels. I know that convincing him of the truth is a fool's errand, but the argument may convince others not to go down that path. I'd consider that a victory.

    Patrick says

    I'm going to the library now and I'm going to get "The Hidden Injuries of Class". I think that's where almost all the right-wing hate comes from.

    What's a library? Some kind of brickware version of Google?

    Bap33 says

    elitists that have not had a tuff life think they are in that spot because they are super smart?

    The correlation between education and atheism is because science provides answers to questions like where did human beings come from. Those who lack a scientific education often fill the void with mysticism. That's why most religions were started in antiquity. Gods were the only way to explain why things like earthquakes happen. Today we have Plate Tectonic Theory.

    PersainCAT says

    "However, my view of college is that it's nearly worthless."
    He uses a personal example to back up the view

    So I used a personal example to explain my personal view of college. Yeah, that makes no sense.

    The point of my statement was that Bap33's assertions of my worldview were incorrect. I was not making the point that college is worthless to all people; that's why I said "my view of college" rather than "college is...". And I conclude with "I don't have a particularly high opinion of college", the keyword being "opinion". Once again, you are taking the things I say out of context.

    I could go into more detail about who I think college is beneficial for and who it isn't, but there's no reason to discuss that here. The whole point of bringing up my views on college was to disprove Bap33's assertion of what those views were. If Bap33 claimed that I liked to kick puppies, I'd deny that too. I'm very anti-"kicking puppies".

    PersainCAT says

    ulta conservatives: after the talk about america sux... "Again, you like other ultra-cons here have consistently tried to force words down other people's throats. Since you cannot address the arguments we actually made, you try to trick people into thinking we made weaker and dumber arguments. "

    here again he uses the logic that ALL conservatives who cant argue their point lie, manipulate and trick people to make the other person look bad. he implies that liberals would NEVER do that and are above such things.

    1. No, I'm not arguing that all conservatives use that deceptive tactic. I'm implying that all you ultra-conservatives posting in this thread use that tactic, a case than seems well-supported by this thread. The half-dozen ultra-cons here hardly represent all of the 100 million or so conservatives in our country, although they may represent a lot of them. I'm not going to guess here how many conservatives are ultra-cons. I only hope that it's a minority.

    2. Ironically, you have demonstrated the very use of this tactic in refuting the truthfulness of my accusation that you use this tactic. I'd like to make a real-world analogy that demonstrates how ridiculous this is, but I can't think of anything so ludicrous off the top of my head.

    3. I have never implied that liberals never use this tactic, although I will go on record as stating it doesn't seem to be their go-to tool like it is for ultra-cons. Note "ultra-cons", not all conservatives.

    4. When and if a liberal does use that tactic on someone (myself or anyone else) and I read it, I'll call that liberal out for it. Hell, I've called out people for flawed logic even when they are supporting my position. To me, it's not about being right, it's about being right for the right reasons. The thought process is more important than the actual conclusion.

    5. Although left-wing politicians play many of the same political shenanigans as right-wing ones, the left-wing does not have an extremist subgroup that is anyway on par with the right-wing. MSNBC is not a liberal mirror image of Fox News as shown in the post Video demonstrates: Obama is Bush, But MSNBC is not Fox.

    MSNBC certainly has a liberal bias, but it doesn't not make up falsehoods and spread them. Something like 50% of Republicans are Birthers! Here and here. This lie was made up on Fox News, and it has been a needless distraction from the real issues like the economy and all the wars we're fighting.

    PersainCAT says

    it ultimately comes down to Dan is able to write better and mask the insults why Bap just flat out states it.

    Actually, the difference is that Bap33 tries to insult the messenger whereas I insult the message itself as being ridiculous. And then I show precisely why it is. I have no problem leaving the messenger go unscathed as long as he doesn't directly attack others.

    leoj707 says

    Both are direct insults on each other but to me calling one person a liar/copycat

    I didn't take being called a copycat as an insult. Sure I joked about it, but that was clearly in jest.

    As for being a liar... A liar is someone who deliberately states a falsehood as a truth when he knows it is not. I actually believe everything I'm saying. Sure, you could argue that I'm wrong -- and I may very well be -- although I have yet to read one rational argument to suggest that. However, if you did present a rational case for my conclusions being incorrect, as a cliché of an INTJ my anal retentive mind would force me to correct or abandon my conclusions no matter how emotionally attached to them I am, which is probably not at all.

    For example, evolution... It is said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. When Darwin first presented the Theory of Evolution, it was indeed an extraordinary claim. What followed is a hundred and fifty years of extraordinary proof in the form of fossils, footprints, real-time observation of evolution in fast-reproducing microbes, and ultimately genetics. Given all of this, it is now an extraordinary claim that Evolution does NOT explain all of biology. Of course, you could in principle convince me that evolution is wrong, even fatally so. But in order to do so, you need to explain why the plethora of evidence supporting evolution is wrong, and that is not going to be an easy task.

    Similarly, you could very well convince me that Einstein was off his rocker when he published the Theory of Relativity. However, you would have to explain why we have observed gravitational lensing and time dilation and why our GPS works far more precisely and accurately with Einstein's equations and not Newton's.

    You could even convince me that your god exists. Just have him stop by my place for a cup of tea and a nice chit-chat. He seems to have chit-chatted with mortals a lot during the Bronze Age.

    Btw, I can walk on water because I know how to turn it into a non-Newtonian fluid. Does that make me a god, too? I can also fly, but I don't like to because the TSA are a bunch of perverted assholes. Also, my voice can carry clear across the world, but sometimes I get charged for roaming. Now I can't raise people from the dead, but I really should learn to do this. I've just been too busy to take a class in CPR, although that's really not a good excuse.

    PersainCAT says

    Dan8267 says

    And though most of the Tea Partiers have not lynched in their life, they come from the culture that did lynch, and it is that culture which drives their hate-filled politics.

    flat out implies that MOST Tea Party members WOULD participate in a lunching if they could, as they are hate filled in their politics.

    In absolutely no way does the statement "Tea Partiers come from a culture that lynched" imply the conclusion that "MOST Tea Party members WOULD participate in a lynching, nonetheless a lunching." That's just bad math, and I find bad math offensive. Also, I have no problems with the Tea Partiers lunching. I rather enjoy a picnic myself.

    The correct conclusion is in my original statement. The culture that led to the lynching of African-Americans continues to drive its people to hateful and xenophobic politics. And this point is well-supported by the whole immigration debate. The Tea Party really doesn't like Mexicans.

    Now I don't want to even open the whole can of worms that is immigration reform. That would just drive a further wedge between the left and right here. So let me nip this in the butt before Bapp33 or someone like him starts calling me "pro-illegal immigrant". I am NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT for high levels of immigration into the U.S. I want the population of the U.S. and the world to stop growing because I fear that the exponential explosion of the population that we are seeing will inevitably lead to a sudden decline, i.e., massive death on a level never before seen in human history, when we quickly run out of various resources. But that's a whole other issue we're not getting into here.

    PersainCAT says

    As Dan implies that, at best Dan isnt being truthful in his representation of the tea party, at worse he is a flat out liar who seeks to degrade the reputation of a whole group of people.

    See, this is exactly why I hate English and other "natural" languages. You can get away with making statements that wouldn't even compile, nonetheless run without throwing an exception, in a real language like Java or C#. I've read more coherent statements in Perl, the only language that looks the same before and after RSA encryption.

    I might have gotten a little too geeky on the last paragraph. My apologies.

    leoj707 says

    One must have faith in order to believe in a religion.

    Faith is belief without proof. That's the problem I have with it. Belief without proof is not a good thing, especially when the thing being believed is something arbitrary that you just happened to be born into, and especially when that belief has been the basis for many wars and murders throughout history.

    It is wrong to believe in anything that cannot in principle be proven because truth and provability are logically equivalent. I'm not even going to try to show why this is true because it is way over the level of logic that people would follow here. The logic that I've presented so far has been relatively easy stuff. The truth equals provability discussions get into Alan Turing and Kurt Gödel territory, and that is some really hard shit. I mean, these are people who make me look dumb. I'm smart enough to understand their work, but not smart enough to teach it.

    PersainCAT says

    alot of the subtly weaved into Dans writing that really are an attack on not only how i view things but me as a person for even viewing those things that way.

    I may be good at writing, but I'm not that good. If I were, I'd make a lot of money writing Pulitzer Prize winning novels. I'm simply not talented enough in writing to pull that off.

    Bap33 says

    same thing is true of atheism. sorry for hitting you with logic in less than 5,000 words.

    This is not logic. This is an assertion. Logic, whether correct or flawed, is a sequence of statements following a cause and effect pattern. A implies B, B implies C, therefore A implies C. There are actual rules of logic that are well known and can be easily looked up. But all logic is going to involve at least two statements. That's what logic does. It combines two statements known to be true by some rule known to be correct and results in a new statement known to be correct. Clearly an assertion, even if it were true, would not meet this description. I really don't understand why you are struggling with this concept. Did you hate your math classes growing up?

    leoj707 says

    Sorry for hitting your response with more than 6 words.

    You should apologize to Bap33 for hitting his response with words that have more than 6 letters.

    Ok, that was a direct insult. My bad, but I couldn't resist.

    Dan8267 says

    OMG! Shrek is dead!

    This thread started out being about Shrek and ended up demonstrating the fundamental differences between the left and right wings. Now I didn't really want to bring out the big guns, because doing so is probably going to upset some people, but I see no way to resolve this thread other than to be painfully honest. [Yes, until now, I've been going easy on the ultra-cons.]

    The fundamental difference between the left-wing and the far-right-wing (and no, I don't including all conservatives in that, just the extreme ones) is that the left-wing uses logic, facts, and empirical verification to determine whether or not something works, whereas the far-right-wing uses faith, emotions, and cultural beliefs. One side uses science, the other uses tradition. Science advances and constantly refines itself as it is a self-correcting mechanism. Tradition does not do either.

    And although none of us wants to admit this, the fundamental difference is due to biological differences between the ultra-right-wing and the rest of humanity. You see, the ultra-right-wingers have a different brain than the rest of us. This has been scientifically proven.

    MRI study suggests liberal brains understand complexity, conservative minds are associated with anxiety and fear:

    Using data from MRI scans, researchers at the University College London found that self-described liberals have a larger anterior cingulate cortex–a gray matter of the brain associated with understanding complexity. Meanwhile, self-described conservatives are more likely to have a larger amygdala, an almond-shaped area that is associated with fear and anxiety.

    Study: Conservatives have larger ‘fear center’ in brain:

    A study at University College London in the UK has found that conservatives' brains have larger amygdalas than the brains of liberals. Amygdalas are responsible for fear and other "primitive" emotions. At the same time, conservatives' brains were also found to have a smaller anterior cingulate -- the part of the brain responsible for courage and optimism.

    If the study is confirmed, it could give us the first medical explanation for why conservatives tend to be more receptive to threats of terrorism, for example, than liberals. And it may help to explain why conservatives like to plan based on the worst-case scenario, while liberals tend towards rosier outlooks.

    In summary, ultra-right-wingers are dumb cowards. There is no politically correct way to express this truth. We can explain why this is so, and we can try to help those people get over this defect, but only if those people want our help.

    It makes sense that some people with have larger fear centers. It was an evolutionary advantage back in the Stone Age. It kept people from being eaten by lions and bitten by poisonous snakes. But we don't live in the Stone Age anymore. Those disproportional instinctive fears are now manifested as irrational fears about terrorism, Mexicans, gays, and other such conservative issues.

    Having fear is a good thing. It's nature's way of making sure you don't do something stupid that gets you killed. However, in the modern world, a person must use frontal lobe thinking to distinguish rational fears from irrational ones. The fact is you are far more likely to be killed in an automobile accident than by a terrorist. You should fear Toyota more than Al Qaeda. But you don't because your Cro-Magnon 1.0 brain was evolved to deal with hunter-gather living and hostile neighboring tribes rather than the reality of modern living.

    The good news is that you can override your base instincts with higher-level thinking. The bad news is that you have to want to.

  7. leo707


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    215   4:38pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    CL says

    Atheism can be viewed as a faith as well, since one cannot disprove God's existence. Therefore, the only truly logical answer is to say "I don't know", or agnosticism.

    I am not sure if you are using faith as a synonym for religion here, but atheism is not a "faith" as religions are, in that regard it is a lack of faith. Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair style.

    I called agnosticism the "best" answer, but would hesitate to call it the "only logical answer".

    Philosophically we can never "know" anything other than as an individual we are experiencing what appears to be a consciousness. Nothing can ever be "proven" in this frame work. What we do have is common experience. From this experience we can gather evidence on how the world around us appears to work. While philosophically we should remain agnostic we can use logic to examine this evidence and come to a conclusion.

    In this pursuit we can never prove a negative. We can never prove with certainty that god(s), dragons, Russle's tea pot, etc. don't exist. There is always going to be the possibility that they are there, but this does not mean that they are likely to exist; or that they are even equally likely to to exist or not exist.

    We can admit that gods might exist. Using logic we can examine the evidence and determine that the probability of gods existing is so very low that the logical position to take is atheism.

    Humans are not always logical, we can be passionate emotional creatures, and probably should not base all their life choices on logic. Sometimes we need to take a leap of faith.

  8. elliemae


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    216   4:53pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    IMHO, people often need to believe that there's someone out there watching over us. That there's more than just "this life." Those beliefs can be comforting, and that's cool. Just because I don't believe the same way as someone else, doesn't make it right or wrong.

    Organized religion is often about who is more reverent and believes the most. It's often about judging others who don't believe the same. I struggle with the organized religion thing. I also struggle with the belief that there is a God, and that anyone who doesn't believe in him is somehow bad.

    I don't want to practice some religion all my life, believing that it's the "right" one, only to die and find out that God is a different religion and I blew it. I believe that if you're a good person all your life and try hard to be kind (knowing that you'll fail sometimes because you're human, after all), if there is a Heaven you'll get there. And if there isn't, oh well - you were a good person. You "win" either way.

  9. marcus


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    217   5:07pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    I have to agree with CL that atheism for many is very much more or less a faith. Agnosticism is fairly neutral and I would agree again with CL that it's logical. Atheism takes the belief that God definitely does not exist on faith.

    I have heard people on this cite literally strongly aguing with seriously flawed logic (that was copied from elsewhere), against agnosticism. That is arguing that since we can't prove God's existence, it is therefore false to say that God exists. This may be true if this were a boolean logic question, or if it were a binary operation were there are only two possibilities.

    My point is, that anyone who feels the need to go further than saying "I don't know," and who needs to go the extra step of strongly believing that God does not exist, is a either a black and white thinker, who can not handle uncertainty or ambiguity, or it is someone who for other reasons has chosen to literally take it on faith that God does not exist.

    One fascinating aspect of arguing with a hard core atheist, is that the argument is always against man made religion, proving why that can not be correct, when that wasn't the question at all. The question was does God (a relatively unknowable and not well defined concept) in any form exists.

    If you wish to read some excellent logic on the subject, read Bertrand Russell.

  10. CL


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    218   5:24pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Exactly, Marcus. Although I've taught them all, I have no horse in this race. Atheism is a belief, a belief that God does NOT exist, which cannot be known or proven, and is therefore an article of faith.

    One can't "not believe" in something, really, can they?

  11. Patrick


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    219   5:26pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    leoj707 says

    I was raised Catholic and taught by viscous Catholic nuns who would beat you with a ruler if you misbehaved" does not imply that I was beaten with a ruler

    Vicious, not viscous. But English spelling is a whole other cause for bitterness. Chinese friend of mine once asked why we don't just use the pronunciation spellings as given in the dictionary right after the "proper" spelling. I don't have a good answer for that.

    I was actually beaten with a yardstick. The nun (Sister Mary Evelyn, may she rot in purgatory for 1000 years) lost her watch, then demanded to know who stole it, then when no one confessed, she hit each of us on the knuckles with the yardstick, leaving a stripe of blue bruises across my hand. Then she found the watch, but did not apologize to us.

    3rd grade. I'm still bitter. I never forgave the Catholic church.

  12. elliemae


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    220   5:56pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    Vicious, not viscous.

    And here I was, ready to dislike liquid nuns.

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    221   6:04pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    CL says

    Exactly, Marcus. Although I've taught them all, I have no horse in this race. Atheism is a belief, a belief that God does NOT exist, which cannot be known or proven, and is therefore an article of faith.

    One can't "not believe" in something, really, can they?

    Yes, but in that philosophical framework everything is a belief.

    Can you "not believe" in Santa Clause, Thor, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, goblins, cigarettes are perfectly safe, etc.

    I choose to "believe" that The Lord of the Rings is a work of fiction and not a historical document, but no one could ever prove that Tolkien was not writing a historically accurate facts. Some "beliefs" are more likely to be true, and others are less likely. In the end all facts are just beliefs.

    marcus says

    If you wish to read some excellent logic on the subject, read Bertrand Russell.

    Yes, I have read Bertrand Russell on the subject of agnosticism and it is very enlightening. His belief in agnosticism is not mutually exclusive with any other belief.

    marcus says

    I have heard people on this cite literally strongly aguing with seriously flawed logic (that was copied from elsewhere), against agnosticism. That is arguing that since we can't prove God's existence, it is therefore false to say that God exists.

    Yes, this is a very faulty argument. I have also head from Christians that god must exist because we can not prove that he doesn't. Equally ridiculous, we can never prove a negative, that does not mean that every negative probably exists.

    marcus says

    My point is, that anyone who feels the need to go further than saying "I don't know," and who needs to go the extra step of strongly believing that God does not exist, is a either a black and white thinker, who can not handle uncertainty or ambiguity, or it is someone who for other reasons has chosen to literally take it on faith that God does not exist.

    Not caring if gods exists is all well and good until someone shows up at your door trying to get you to give them money, or in some cases in history worse. At some point with lots of beliefs, not just religious, one has to just say, "I don't believe what you are trying to sell me".

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    222   6:05pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    Then she found the watch, but did not apologize to us.

    I hope you stole the watch after that, BTW that quote was not from me.

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    223   6:14pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    But I'm getting away from the main point, which I see as the fundamental lack of communication between left and right.

    The left is trying to fix things, but the right takes the attempt to fix things as a personal insult. Discussion stops right there.

    That is the best possible situation for the top 0.5%, which wants to continue redistributing wealth from the middle class to themselves.

    You know, it reminds me of the situation described by "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus", where men hear a woman complain and try to fix the problem, but women don't want it fixed, they want sympathy. The men just don't understand that. (Not PC I know, but that is the theme of the book.)

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    Patrick says

    Chinese friend of mine once asked why we don't just use the pronunciation spellings as given in the dictionary right after the "proper" spelling. I don't have a good answer for that.

    the weird orthography makes it easier to read English words by shape.

    if things were more regular words would be less unique.

    And speaking as a Mandarin student, Chinese people should STFU about orthography.

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    MarsAttacks! says

    The left is trying to fix things the right don't agree need fixing, by taking money from the right to pay for it

    More federal tax money flows from blue states to red states than vice versa. But perhaps you are right, perhaps we should stop that flow.

  18. Bap33


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    leoj707 says

    Religion is illogical, because there is no evidence that it is true

    list the proof of atheism.

    leoj707 says

    Atheism is logical because it is the belief

    hahaha ... amazing.

    Dan, you're wrong.

    Ellie. thanks. Please double check 'ol Dan's remarks toward me as your mean-o-meter may be on the glitch.

    Everyone, have a great night.

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    227   8:25pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    leoj707 says

    It would be nice if you had some actual evidence to support your claim.

    apply this to Dan's claim or racisim, please. Like, a poll, is your example.

    The United Negro College Fund .... NAACP .... National Black Caucous. Negro, Colored, Black. Are these groups racist? Supporting Judge Thomas based on race is racist? And "logic" is your strong suit?

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    228   9:23pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    Ellie. thanks. Please double check 'ol Dan's remarks toward me as your mean-o-meter may be on the glitch.

    First off, even tho I've repeatedly said that I'm the voice of reason, I doubt people believe it. My evidence to that would be the fact that I'm full of shit half the time, making such serious comments:

    elliemae says

    Patrick says



    Vicious, not viscous.


    And here I was, ready to dislike liquid nuns

    I don't purport to be Mikey, who was damn punny. But I like to think that I bring a smile to some faces. Maybe that's what I get for doing my own thinking, I don't know.

    But Bap, I didn't see his comments as mean or inappropriate. It doesn't matter how many times we beat this horse, it's not gonna get any deader.

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    229   9:54pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    Was my post too long for your attention span? Did you stop reading when I started to use "big words"?

    Dan8267 says

    In summary, ultra-right-wingers are dumb cowards. There is no politically correct way to express this truth.

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    Dan8267 says

    Remember, I posted the list of the 10 reasons that Obama was a bad president. That alone should show I'm not a leftist or a Democrat fanboy.

    How is that proven, because a liberal can't disagree with Obama? Interesting logic you use.

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    231   9:59pm Fri 30 Sep 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    I firmly believe, no, make that know that no god, as defined by any of the monotheistic or polytheistic religions in human history exists.

    prove it

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    232   12:20am Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    leoj707 says

    It would be nice if you had some actual evidence to support your claim.

    apply this to Dan's claim or racisim, please. Like, a poll, is your example.

    The United Negro College Fund .... NAACP .... National Black Caucous. Negro, Colored, Black. Are these groups racist? Supporting Judge Thomas based on race is racist? And "logic" is your strong suit?

    After reading this post I am not sure you know what the word "racist" means, let alone the history of racism in the US. So, I am not quite sure how to respond to it.

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    233   12:26am Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    leoj707 says

    Religion is illogical, because there is no evidence that it is true

    list the proof of atheism.

    Ummm... OK...

    Atheism is the belief that there are no gods.
    Dan8267 states that he does not believe in gods.
    Dan8267 is an atheist, therefor atheism exists.

    OK, now list the proof for your god.

  26. leo707


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    234   12:39am Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    Dan8267 says

    I firmly believe, no, make that know that no god, as defined by any of the monotheistic or polytheistic religions in human history exists.

    prove it

    Because I am God, I could easily prove this to you Bap, but first you must prove something for me.

    Bap, prove that I am not God.

  27. PersainCAT


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    235   2:35am Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    This is what i get for taking a nap at 3pm-9pm and coming back at 4 am to read the thread...theres like 40 posts since my last one and now i need to post 3 times.

    leoj707 says

    @Persian, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

    Bap33 says

    Thank you PersianCAT for using your powers and abilities for good. Seriously, thank you.

    Im happy to reply because i am very much on the conservative side of things and dont see lots of that side represented here by people that dont already have a reputation.

    leoj707 says

    OK, ok, I un-ignored bap for a moment to read that reference. Yes, Dan clearly contradicts himself. It is not even worth trying to defend by saying that Dan did not specifically state that nuns beat him.

    which could very much be the case, all i wanted to point out is that bap wasnt completely illogical.
    As well Dan was being just as insulting as a whole and his generalities taken literally and/or figuratively did imply a conclusion that wasn't necessarily true. ( in example just because a few members of the tea party can be viewed racists doesn't mean its people as a whole are or that any of its main stream views are inherently racist)

    Or take Dans General tone in Dan8267 says

    False humility is not. As an INTJ, I know exactly what fields I'm an expert in and which ones I am not. You touchy-feely types tend to think you're an expert in everything and so you express incorrect ideas in every field. INTJs tend to ask questions in fields in which they are not experts and share knowledge in the fields in which they are. INTJs love sharing knowledge and understanding.

    He insults those who arent INTJ and tend to be on the touchy-feely end of this by stateing that he (Dan) clearly know where hes is correct and you are wrong, where HIS knowledge is more vast. those who disagree only THINK they are an expert in that field where he (Dan) IS an expert in the fields he claims. Dan is clearly putting Bap down to a far extent and being just as know it all as bap but in a way one WANTS to read Dans comments. my point is dont through out Baps opinion when they seem off/insulting becasue even good writing that u enjoy (dans) has the same undertone to it.

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    236   2:35am Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    @ DAn next few
    Dan8267 says

    It's really sad that in the 21st century, we still use medieval justice.

    Hey im not for it but there is validity to its ability to produce at least some results. Thats why the opposing view is pro. what is worse medieval justice or unchecked terrorism, u decide.

    Dan8267 says

    Ok, maybe I could phrase that better. Most intelligent people reach the conclusion that religion is crap. There is a strong correlation between atheism and intelligence and between atheism and education. Some highly intelligent are religious even today. I do not understand how. They must compartmentalize like crazy to hold two contradicting beliefs at once. Physics and biology leave no room for a god in nature.

    when u change your wording u at least dont have the contradiction, however its comments like this and about u being an intj that make u seem just as arrogant and pigheaded as you view Bap. That is you continue to call what very logical people view in high reguard crap, and u basically insult their ability to think logically when u say that have to compartmentalize like crazy to hold CONTRACTING beliefs. I dont see a contraction between science and god at all, i would explain more but i want this spefic discussion on validity of reglion to die.

    Dan8267 says

    The point of my statement was that Bap33's assertions of my worldview were incorrect. I was not making the point that college is worthless to all people; that's why I said "my view of college" rather than "college is...". And I conclude with "I don't have a particularly high opinion of college", the keyword being "opinion". Once again, you are taking the things I say out of context.

    his assertion is that your worldview was incorrect and personally i agree with him on at least a few points. how are u supposed to convince me otherwise when the only evidence u prent to justify your opinion is a lifestory that seems reasonably contradicted with actual data, if we took the time to determine that data existed.

    Dan8267 says

    2. Ironically, you have demonstrated the very use of this tactic in refuting the truthfulness of my accusation that you use this tactic. I'd like to make a real-world analogy that demonstrates how ridiculous this is, but I can't think of anything so ludicrous off the top of my head.

    Yea i was hopeing u'd pick up on that irony to the extent that your words COULD be read that way even though thats not what u are saying. Im geting at how your writing can appear to be just as "hate filled" and attack oriented as you view bap even if thats not the specific intent, its why u get the kind of comment from Bap that u did.

    Dan8267 says

    Actually, the difference is that Bap33 tries to insult the messenger whereas I insult the message itself as being ridiculous. And then I show precisely why it is. I have no problem leaving the messenger go unscathed as long as he doesn't directly attack others.

    And my point was that u messed up a few things when u quoted things like relgion and education as having the message as ridiculous. That is while im pretty sure i have very differnt views i can logically read your posts and point out flaws with the examples even IF your point was correct.

    Dan8267 says

    In absolutely no way does the statement "Tea Partiers come from a culture that lynched" imply the conclusion that "MOST Tea Party members WOULD participate in a lynching, nonetheless a lunching." That's just bad math, and I find bad math offensive. Also, I have no problems with the Tea Partiers lunching. I rather enjoy a picnic myself.

    When u take your comments as a whole and u say
    1.that the culture that lynched is the same culture as the tea party members
    2.the tea pary has hatefilled politics
    3.the tea party has racists members
    you are very much implying that those are the people who would do lynching if the times were differnt. it may not have been your attempt but it is a very logical leap to make. next time include

    Dan8267 says

    The correct conclusion is in my original statement. The culture that led to the lynching of African-Americans continues to drive its people to hateful and xenophobic politics. And this point is well-supported by the whole immigration debate. The Tea Party really doesn't like Mexicans.

    in what u ACTUALLY say and u wont get the same fervor of comments like baps. (though i would point out that dislike mexicans and disliking those who break the law be being in our country IS a very differnt thing that doesnt really man they hate mexicans)

    Dan8267 says

    See, this is exactly why I hate English and other "natural" languages. You can get away with making statements that wouldn't even compile, nonetheless run without throwing an exception,

    ah see but they still have meaning and thats why i hate computer programing/computer science.

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    237   2:47am Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    But I'm getting away from the main point, which I see as the fundamental lack of communication between left and right.

    i see this as two fundamentally different view points that go something like.
    1.
    Right: look X will fix it
    Left: fine but only if we modify X to X'.
    Right: fine i dont want to argue lets do that.
    Result: Failure.does that mean X is a failed theory.
    Left:yes
    Right say No we changed X to X' and thus there was a failure. can we please get X.
    Left: sure if we modify X to X''...... it just goes on and on

    2.
    the OTHER choice is the LEFT says well X will fix the problem. The Right says that is a fundamental change to foundations that the country were founded on and we will NEVER agree to something close to that.

    also any chance we can get off the god topic, its a differnt path than i see the topic as a whole and were going to get stuff like

    Bap33 says

    Dan8267 says

    I firmly believe, no, make that know that no god, as defined by any of the monotheistic or polytheistic religions in human history exists.
    ______________
    prove it

    leading to bad things.

  30. elliemae


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    238   11:16am Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    Dan8267 says



    I firmly believe, no, make that know that no god, as defined by any of the monotheistic or polytheistic religions in human history exists.


    prove it

    In Dan's paradigm there is no God. No eminent Being who is omniscient, omnipotent, etc that is watching over us. That's his paradigm - his belief system. You don't have to prove a belief system because you can't quantify beliefs.

    There are people who believe that there is a God but they can't prove there is. They often present the Bible as their proof - a book that was written by man, transcribed by hand over & over and surely the subject of subtle (& not so subtle) changes with each transcription. Remember that there were no copiers until 1938, and not available for commercial use until 20 years later. So, each time someone copied the book by hand it was changed. Man isn't perfect.

    People have created religions; as I said it's my belief that it makes them feel better to think that someone or something is out there to watch over them. I'm not belittling their beliefs, just asserting my own.

    Rather than asking Dan to prove that there isn't a God, please Bap - prove that there is one. We want quantifiable, scientific proof. Has anyone photographed God? Have there been God sightings (like the Loch Ness monster & Bigfoot)? Which religion is the true one? Enquiring minds want to know.

    Just curious - how do you KNOW that there's a God? Or, is it simply your belief system that tells you that there is one? And do you view Dan as less of a man because he doesn't share your belief system?

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    239   11:23am Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    There simply is no debate on the right. We'd all like to think the right-wing in this country is ideologically based and sincere, however the truth is that NO ONE on this board or any other board is capable of having a rational calm discussion on the merits of what Republicans want right now.

    The reason is simple. We're living a Republican nightmare right this second. Taxes are lower than ever. Regulation of big business is almost entirely gone. The military is larger than ever and international trade is dominated by Republican trade laws. The Republican Supreme Court has even legalized unlimited corporate power with respect to campaign spending.

    So Republicans are left with only one viable position: More extreme versions of the same. You cannot have a debate with an extremist radical.

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    240   11:27am Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/09/colbert-explains-roves-money-laundering-scheme/

    Pretty impressive way to anonymously fund the purchase of politicians.

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    241   11:47am Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Ellie, I agree. Atheism is a belief system -- just like you said. And, what I said is it requires faith, just like Christianity. The entire exchange can be found above, but here's the Readers Digest version since I'm too lazy right now:
    Dan said he was an atheist because that required logic, but religion required faith.
    Bap said atheism requires faith, just like religion.
    Everyone agreed with Bap that atheism required faith, here's an example:CL says

    Exactly, Marcus. Although I've taught them all, I have no horse in this race. Atheism is a belief, a belief that God does NOT exist, which cannot be known or proven, and is therefore an article of faith.
    One can't "not believe" in something, really, can they?

    ANd then Leo - who really does not like Bap much - said this collection:
    Bap33 says

    leoj707 says

    Religion is illogical, because there is no evidence that it is true
    Bap said, "
    list the proof of atheism."
    leoj707 says

    Atheism is logical because it is the belief
    Bap said, "hahaha ... amazing."

    You see, Leo said atheism is logical, so it is right, but then said it was a belief ... Leo suggests there is evidence to support atheism ,,, the evidence? Dan said so!. LoL, is the irony too much to not laugh?

    Anyhow, Dan remains wrong.

    Iwog, I too think Repubs stink up the plac. But, I suspect it is for different reasons from you! lol

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    242   11:59am Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    Anyhow, Dan remains wrong.

    So, this isn't about religious beliefs, it's about you're needing to believe that you're right? That, too, is a belief.

    Bap33 says

    Iwog, I too think Repubs stink up the plac. But, I suspect it is for different reasons from you! lol

    I don't believe (again, with the "beliefs!") that Republicans "stink up the plac." Nor do I believe that they stink up the place (tee hee).

    You obviously believe that's what our belief systems hold. More power to you - but you are selling us short.

    Bap33 says

    My responses are limited becasue I am trying to make my removal from PatNet more challenging than Shrek or ToT.

    Your lack of ability to distinguish spirited conversations from mean-spirited conversation severely limits your arguments.

    fyi, regaring "lol":
    It's original definition was "Laughing out loud" (also written occasionally as "Lots of Laughs"), used as a brief acronym to denote great amusement in chat conversations.

    Now, it is overused to the point where nobody laughs out loud when they say it. In fact, they probably don't even give a shit about what you just wrote. More accurately, the acronym "lol" should be redefined as "Lack of laughter."

    Depending on the chatter, its definition may vary. The list of its meanings includes, but is not limited to:
    1) "I have nothing worthwhile to contribute to this conversation."
    2) "I'm too lazy to read what you just wrote so I'm typing something useless in hopes that you'll think I'm still paying attention."
    3) "Your statement lacks even the vaguest trace of humor but I'll pretend I'm amused."
    4) "This is a pointless acronym I'm sticking in my sentence just because it's become so engraved into my mind that when chatting, I MUST use the meaningless sentence-filler 'lol.'"

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lol

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    243   1:01pm Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    You forgot to add - IMAO (in my arrogant opinion). lolwut?

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    244   1:05pm Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    marcus says

    lolwut

    what's that?

  37. marcus


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    245   1:14pm Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Simultaneous "laugh out loud" with "what?"

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    246   1:15pm Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    elliemae says

    "lol" should be redefined as "Lack of laughter."

    I have a new one. TYSFME (to you straight from my ego).

    I tend to not say, IMHO, but please assume that I am always saying that, even when I might be better off saying IMAO or even TYSFME.

    Some posters on here are very bright and with strong opinions, and yet I don't hear ego as much from them as I do from some others. MY guess is that it's often a function of age. I would not be surprised to learn that certain individuals on here are under 30. (and I probably sound that way occasionally - although not even close).

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    247   1:30pm Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    I do say IMHO to distinguish between my opinion and my humble opinion.

    hahaha

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    248   1:39pm Sat 1 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    CL says

    One can't "not believe" in something, really, can they?

    Sure they can . Many choose not to believe in God, or to live their life based on the existence of and worship of God. But this is a far cry from asserting with certainty that God does not exist. That sounds like religious dogma to me. It's very much like some Christians who arrogantly feel that what they have found to be true for themselves is true for everyone, and that they need to spread the word so that others can have the same enlightened experience.

    (although in that case it might not be as much pure ego as the atheists assertions, because they believe they are helping the other person to be saved. I guess the atheist feels that they are making the world a better place too so....yeah, it's very similar. )

    Atheism, it's the anti-religion religion.

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