Class War or not?


By American in Japan   Follow   Sun, 2 Oct 2011, 6:50am   5,318 views   39 comments
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For what it's worth...

6 ways the_rich_are_waging_a_class_war_against_the_american_people/

Class-war-america-inequality-645 (rt.com)

Class war in America republicans rich (Guardian.co.uk)

“There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning."

~ Warren Buffett (Thanks Iwog)

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  1. elliemae


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    1   7:15am Sun 2 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   Protected  

    They say that they want to report on the protests, but they want you to donate to help support the protests...

    Do they want to report, make money off advertising, incite riots, or all of the above?

    Is there a huge difference between this philosophy, and how Faux news created the tea party?

  2. thunderlips11


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    2   8:36am Sun 2 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    But there's another way of looking at “class war”: habitually vilifying the unfortunate; claiming that their plight is a manifestation of some personal flaw or cultural deficiency. Conservatives wage this form of class warfare virtually every day, consigning millions of people who are down on their luck to some subhuman underclass.

    Yep. And many so-called liberals fall prey to this 'logic'.

  3. iwog


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    3   9:16am Sun 2 Oct 2011   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (17)   Dislike (2)   Protected  

    “There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning.

    ~ Warren Buffett

  4. American in Japan


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    4   11:19pm Wed 4 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  
  5. Meccos


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    5   6:05pm Fri 6 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (2)  

    Flat taxes... everybody pays the SAME percentage. Ends the issue of class warfare.

    If you propose that the rich pay a higher percentage or their earnings, then you are proposing class warfare.

  6. FortWayne


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    6   6:22pm Fri 6 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    For what it's worth there was an article a few days ago from NYTimes on the front page of patrick.net that discussed some new legislation signed by Obama. That legislation would prohibit certain protests, and create "free speech zones" making everyone else a "non free speech zone".

    Sometimes it feels like we live in an episode of a twilight zone, slowly turning into some radical socialist state where electing either party makes absolutely no difference while big government takes a bigger strangle hold on us all.

  7. Meccos


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    7   6:22pm Fri 6 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    The other issue of taxing "the rich" is that some use examples such as Buffet or Romney as an argument that "the rich" do not pay their "fair share". THE problem is that the increases in taxes people are proposing do not affect these guys, but the higher wage earners, who do not pay 15% in taxes, but rather close to 50% in some states like California (10% state income rate).

    If you want guys like Buffet or Romney to pay more taxes.. then propose increases in capital gains...

  8. xenogear3


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    8   9:17pm Fri 6 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)  

    The war is not "Rich vs Poor"
    It is really "Rich vs Wannabe Rich"

    Rich people make sure that all high pay jobs are outsourced.

    If everyone makes $40k-, who will buy these high margin products from these rich people's companies?
    They don't care. They just want no one richer than them.

  9. iwog


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    9   8:55am Sat 7 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (1)   Protected  

    Meccos says

    If you want guys like Buffet or Romney to pay more taxes.. then propose increases in capital gains...

    Obama has tried to increase the capital gains rate to 20%. A simple 5% increase.

    Republicans would rather have a war than allow it.

    I can't understand those of you who think the parties are identical. On economic and tax issues, they are black and white.

  10. gary275


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    10   9:05am Sat 7 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Before they go on about taxing individuals why dont they close the loppholes for big companies like GE who make most of their money in the US and pay 0 % taxes. A company like Transocean is registerested in Switzerland and pays 0% taxes yet they only have a mailbox in Switzerland, all company officers are US citizens and live and work in US. Fix that first. I am appalled that they throw a smoke screen about class warfare and people bite hook line and sinker. Fix the F%$#$# corporate greed first.

  11. Dan8267


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    11   9:30am Sat 7 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    "I am not angry at rich people I am angry at the people who manipulate the system,” Kevin Smith, 51, adds to CNN. Smith’s anger, many will attest, is directed accordingly. The system in question allowed the one percent to see a near 300 percent surge in income between 1979 and 2007.

    Exactly. It is the parasitic rich, not the wealth-producing rich. However, wealth producing will, at most, make you a millionaire, not a billionaire. The kind of opulence that the 0.1% experience can only be gotten by stealing from others.

  12. Dan8267


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    12   9:32am Sat 7 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    FortWayne says

    For what it's worth there was an article a few days ago from NYTimes on the front page of patrick.net that discussed some new legislation signed by Obama. That legislation would prohibit certain protests, and create "free speech zones" making everyone else a "non free speech zone".

    Agreed, this is very evil. But it's not new. The bad idea of limiting free speech to certain, restricted "zones" has been around since the 1990s and some college campuses embraced it.

    Political correctness is a form of tyranny.

    http://patrick.net/forum/?p=1210956#comment-814718

  13. Dan8267


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    13   9:35am Sat 7 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    Meccos says

    The other issue of taxing "the rich" is that some use examples such as Buffet or Romney as an argument that "the rich" do not pay their "fair share".

    Rather than taxing the rich, I'd like to change our economic model so that the people cannot become rich by rent-seeking, zero-sum games, and other forms of parasitic behavior.

  14. oliverks1


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    14   7:58pm Sun 8 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    Meccos says

    Flat taxes... everybody pays the SAME percentage. Ends the issue of class warfare.

    If you propose that the rich pay a higher percentage or their earnings, then you are proposing class warfare.

    This seems like a nice idea, but the logic is flawed. There are problems you need to address

    1) There is no such thing as a Free market (well there is, but no one wants to really live in it). As such there are distortions and some people make more money because of these distortions. For example, doctors in America get paid significantly more than doctors in other countries. Evidence suggests they are no better than doctors in other countries, but they are a politically protected class and therefore can control supply better.

    2) Rent seeking is a problem. If you allow a smaller and smaller group of people to control the capital of a country, progress stalls and real earnings are lost. Britain in the early 1900's was a classic example of this. It is to the benefit of society to have some "churn" in the wealth.

    3) Capitalism doesn't always price things correctly. Over the very long haul it does a decent job, but it can miss price things for decades or longer. People's worth to society often has little to do with the money they make. This dramatically impacts real peoples lives, for their entire life.

    Even the ardent Flax taxers like Steve Forbes believe the poorest people (financially) should be given a break via a large personal exemption. But of course, when you do this, you no longer have a flat tax.

    Oliver

  15. Dan8267


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    15   12:31am Mon 9 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    oliverks1 says

    It is to the benefit of society to have some "churn" in the wealth.

    As well as a churn in the wealthy.

  16. freak80


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    16   7:56am Mon 9 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    iwog says

    I can't understand those of you who think the parties are identical. On economic and tax issues, they are black and white.

    On taxes yes. On "free trade", no. Wasn't it Clinton that gave us NAFTA? Both parties are sending our "real" economy overseas and replacing it with a jive-finance economy.

    Democrats would do better if they'd drop some of the "social issues." A lot of people in middle America won't vote for a party that stands for gay marriage, unrestricted abortion, atheism, gun restrictions, etc.

    The gay marriage thing cost Kerry the election in '04.

    Democrats would regain their "permanent majority" status if they were more in-touch with the middle America so many of them clearly despise.

  17. thunderlips11


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    17   8:45am Mon 9 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    wthrfrk80 says

    Democrats would do better if they'd drop some of the "social issues." A lot of people in middle America won't vote for a party that stands for gay marriage, unrestricted abortion, atheism, gun restrictions, etc.

    I disagree about that - right now it hurts a little, but in the long term, the pre-civil rights era people - the kind who hold their prejudices close to their heart enough to inform their voting - dwindle in number.

    The trends are very good for social liberals moving forward, and very bad for the Republicans.

    * College-educated but underemployed : Tend not to buy the Panglossian "Best of all possible worlds" bromides. Nobody is more skeptical about society than the Architect or Biology major who is driving a cab. There's a strong connection between pushing for reform and underemployed young people.
    * The BB's are going, slowly now but much faster in the next 10-15 years.
    * When the BB's go, the Culture War will probably end.
    * When the BB's go, the dominant demographic will be Gen Y, who is far more tolerant than the BBs for Alt Lifestyles.
    * Hispanic population gowing.

    * Old Republican boogeymen like Fidel and Raoul Castro, Chavez, etc. almost certainly won't last out the decade. Public is exhausted about hearing about the Muslim threat, support for continuing intervention in the M/E is minimal, even among Republicans.

    And finally, the #1 trend:
    * Old people vote according to Soc Sec and Medicare above all. Given a choice between voting for war with Islamo-Fascists but having Soc Sec cut back, even most Southern Working Class Seniors, will vote to save Social Security. FDR knew his shit.

  18. freak80


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    18   9:17am Mon 9 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    But social conservatives have more children. Almost by definition.

  19. thunderlips11


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    19   9:30am Mon 9 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    wthrfrk80 says

    But social conservatives have more children. Almost by definition.

    That's true, but so do 1st gen immigrants.

  20. freak80


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    20   9:56am Mon 9 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    thunderlips11 says

    That's true, but so do 1st gen immigrants.

    True, and many of them are devout Catholic hispanics, right?

  21. thunderlips11


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    21   10:24am Mon 9 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    wthrfrk80 says

    True, and many of them are devout Catholic hispanics, right?

    True, but Catholics, esp. Latin Catholics, are generally more open to a welfare state than White Evangelicals. Both Central and South America have been trending leftwards over the past decade; one exception is Mexico, but the center-right only won by a small margin - the whole Obrador ruckus.

    I can't speak for Mexican-Americans, but here in Miami, there are pages of "Aborto" ads in the local weekly ad rag, El Clarin. These are just the online ads:
    http://www.elclarin.com/condomenu.htm

    There's got to be scores of private (for profit, non-planned parenthood) abortion clinics in Miami, more than I've seen anywhere in the USA.

    There are also tons of immigration lawyers here and anti-anti-immigration sentiment runs high. Everytime a Republican babbles about immigration control, many hispanic voters are turned off.

  22. freak80


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    22   11:27am Mon 9 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    thunderlips11 says

    True, but Catholics, esp. Latin Catholics, are generally more open to a welfare state than White Evangelicals. Both Central and South America have been trending leftwards over the past decade

    True. It's hard not to be for a welfare state when you're making $1/hour working in the fields.

    I guess if trends continue the US will become part of Latin America. That's already happened in places like CA, TX, and FL. Economically we've been headed that way for awhile (very rich and very poor with no middle class). It started with Reagan. And the corruption is fast approaching Latin American levels.

    I think we're headed for a major "shake up" in American politics and it will be interesting to see what happens. Right now, both parties are irrelevant.

  23. thunderlips11


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    23   9:19pm Mon 9 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    wthrfrk80 says

    I guess if trends continue the US will become part of Latin America. That's already happened in places like CA, TX, and FL. Economically we've been headed that way for awhile (very rich and very poor with no middle class). It started with Reagan. And the corruption is fast approaching Latin American levels.

    I think it exceeds it. Corruption is open here, and largely legal, and thus not considered "real" corruption:

    wthrfrk80 says

    I think we're headed for a major "shake up" in American politics and it will be interesting to see what happens. Right now, both parties are irrelevant.

    Couldn't agree more.

  24. leo707


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    24   12:49pm Tue 10 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    wthrfrk80 says

    I think we're headed for a major "shake up" in American politics and it will be interesting to see what happens. Right now, both parties are irrelevant.

    May you live in interesting times.

  25. Meccos


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    25   3:50pm Tue 10 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    oliverks1 says

    1) There is no such thing as a Free market (well there is, but no one wants to really live in it). As such there are distortions and some people make more money because of these distortions. For example, doctors in America get paid significantly more than doctors in other countries. Evidence suggests they are no better than doctors in other countries, but they are a politically protected class and therefore can control supply better.

    its not that simple. Doctors here make more money because they have a ton invested into their careers. FOr example, it takes 4 years undergraduate, 4 years of medical school, and 4-10 years of internship, residency and fellowship training to finally make money. This is over a decade of training, 200k dollars of school loans and over a decade of lost earning potential. If you calculate all this, they really dont make so much for people who make life and death decisions. In addition, most other country have free medical schools and sometimes the medical school is only 6 years combined with undergraduate. IN addition, you will find that doctors in these other country dont work the long hours. I see the point you are trying to make, but before you use this as an argument you have to get the facts straight.

  26. leo707


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    26   4:00pm Tue 10 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    Meccos says

    Doctors here make more money because they have a ton invested into their careers.

    So, you are saying that anyone who spends a lot on school gets payed more as a result?

    I know plenty of people that spent time in school getting a master/PHD racked up loans, and they don't make much money.

    Time/money spent on career training has no relation to earnings in a job.

    However, many people do become doctors because the time/money is worth it because doctors make more.

  27. Honest Abe


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    27   2:39pm Thu 12 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    Why would any normal person feel "entitled" to someone else's property?

    Envy? Entitlement? Greed? Power? Manipulation?

    Sure there need's to be taxes. But with a limited, constitutional government the tax burden would be much less. With less of a tax burden, there would be little need for the libs to engage in class warfare.

  28. Dan8267


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    28   5:27pm Thu 12 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    leoj707 says

    Time/money spent on career training has no relation to earnings in a job.

    Not entirely true. A high cost of entry in terms of time and money is a barrier to entry, which in turns drives up wages or profits. If anyone could become a doctor, they would get paid less.

    Still, doctors do earn their money. Unlike health insurance providers, hospital administration, and other wasteful parts of health care.

  29. Bellingham Bill


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    29   10:09pm Thu 12 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (1)  

    Honest Abe says

    . With less of a tax burden, there would be little need for the libs to engage in class warfare.

    With the low taxes of the minarchist state, everyone would eventually have to pay immense rents to the powers that owned everything.

    Conditions of the your libertopia would quickly devolve into how the 19th century was going until the Populist/Progressive movements reversed things.

    'Class warfare' is excessively vague. What we have now is a dysfunctional system rife with rent-seeking in land, health care, energy, telecommunication, and any other natural monopoly that can be established.

    The working people of this country are getting trillions parasitically tapped from their paychecks by the world's idle wealthy who own everything.

    That's the class warfare -- people getting something for nothing -- wealth without work.

    The current welfare state arrangement does distribute several hundred billion a year in aid to the hopeless lower classes, but capital siphons an order of magnitude more wealth back from the masses in return.

    Much of the welfare state -- Medicare-Medicaid, Section 8, Food stamps, Big Defense, "Free" Education -- is actually just price supports for the parasitical rentiers among us.

    Republicans like Honest Abe here have absolutely no solutions to the problems our economy faces. They're the ones who've driven us into the major policy mistakes of the past 30+ years. It's really quite stunning they even have the balls to comment in public, spouting off their bullshit still.

  30. Bellingham Bill


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    30   10:19pm Thu 12 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    wthrfrk80 says

    Democrats would regain their "permanent majority" status if they were more in-touch with the middle America so many of them clearly despise.

    You can blow that bullshit right out your ass. Being on the wrong side of history is no way to run a country.

    Freedom from religion, Gay rights, freedom from bigotry, womens rights, workers rights, careful, considered employment of our trillion-dollar military -- these are not things that can be sacrificed to the overly conservative 'tards of flyover country.

    "Middle America" is just a convenient bullshit term for 'what I believe'. This country does tilt conservative, but that's why the Dems have to thread the conservative needle, and I think Obama does (and Clinton before him too) the right amount of pandering to the Bubbas. The rural folk are free to slit their throats by staying with the Republican caucus. No skin off my nose. But don't tell me to kowtow to their collective idiocies. I'm not throwing any fellow American under the bus for that noise.

  31. freak80


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    31   10:40am Fri 13 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Delurking,

    Thank you for making my point.

    If the Democrats are going to win nationally, they'll need more than just Coastal California to do so. Insulting half of your fellow Americans is no way to gain their support. Your post show's you haven't had much social interaction beyond Santa Cruz, CA and similar social bubbles.

    It's people like you that destroyed the New Deal Coalition with your social radicalism and gave us 30+ years of Republican economic policy.

  32. marcus


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    32   10:42am Sat 14 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (1)  

    Delurking says

    Republicans like Honest Abe here have absolutely no solutions to the problems our economy faces. They're the ones who've driven us into the major policy mistakes of the past 30+ years. It's really quite stunning they even have the balls to comment in public, spouting off their bullshit still.

    Republicans of Abe's ilk neither listen to nor comprehend anything you say. (but very accurate I believe)

    Either that, or he's a liberal in disguise trying to make his type of republican appear even more retarded than they are.

  33. marcus


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    33   10:48am Sat 14 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    wthrfrk80 says

    It's people like you that destroyed the New Deal Coalition with your social radicalism

    Troy's argument is economic, which is different but yes radical in the degree to which it questions our current economic model.

    Last time our economy was as fucked up as it is now, people accepted major structural changes. It's almost as if the aristocracy has been working really hard preparing for the right thing NOT to happen this time as it did last time.

    (yes, I know there was a major war in there somewhere too)

  34. freak80


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    34   7:08pm Sat 14 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    marcus says

    Last time our economy was as fucked up as it is now, people accepted major structural changes.

    I agree that we need major structural changes. I'm not against that.

    What turns off "mid America" is the social issues stuff.

    I firmly believe that if the whole "gay marriage" fiasco never would have started, the Democrats would have won in 2004. Moreover, the Dems would have regained their permanent majority by now. On economic issues, it really is the 99.9% vs. the top 0.1%.

  35. freak80


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    35   7:13pm Sat 14 Apr 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    thunderlips11 says

    I think it exceeds it. Corruption is open here, and largely legal, and thus not considered "real" corruption:

    Love that video. Thanks for sharing it!

  36. American in Japan


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    36   4:56am Wed 4 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    I second that!

  37. futuresmc


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    37   8:34am Wed 4 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    thunderlips11 says

    And finally, the #1 trend:
    * Old people vote according to Soc Sec and Medicare above all. Given a choice between voting for war with Islamo-Fascists but having Soc Sec cut back, even most Southern Working Class Seniors, will vote to save Social Security. FDR knew his shit.

    The problem here is that the BB's are dying off. The Gen Y's are larger already and with their youth and health, they're all too happy to cut Soc Sec and Medicare as few of them utilize these and they believe that these programs can't be saved and will be gone by the time they get old enough to collect. My generation, Gen X is the only hope the BB's have, as if we stand with them, we can counter Gen Y for a while. On the other hand, we might hand victory to Gen Y too. We're very mercurial in that respect. It all depends on what Gen X sees as their own best interests. We hate the BB's for their treating us like dirt in our younger years, but we fear Gen Y and thier willingness to slit our throats when it suits them.

  38. APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch


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    38   9:56am Wed 4 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    In the end, there will be no names for demographics, except for those that denote which end the fork you're on.

  39. Dan8267


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    39   11:58am Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

    In the end, there will be no names for demographics, except for those that denote which end the fork you're on.

    That's what I love about Apocalysefuck. He's the eternal optimist. Personally, I think the dinning set of the future is going to have two-sided forks so that both parties can fight it out.

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