WatchI've noticed that a lot of Patnetters say that there is no shortage of engineers in the US. I never really hear this anywhere else except from people on these forums. Why here? I've also found lots of Patnetters to be very anti-education, which is also strange and seems like a minority position except among some libertarian types. Not picking on one person, but here's a typical quote on the engineer thing:
Which is complete and utter nonsense. There is no shortage of engineers.
This was a response to thomas.wong (http://patrick.net/forum/?p=1127889#comment-775304):
When it came to his turn, Jobs talked about the United States' lack of software engineers, and said that any foreign student who got an engineering degree at a U.S. university should automatically be offered a green card. Obama responded that such a change had to be part of the proposed Dream Act - allowing undocumented immigrants who graduated from a U.S. high school to become legal residents - which Republicans had blocked.
...
That resonates, as does Jobs' plea at the dinner for a crash program to train U.S. engineers. "You can't find that many in America to hire," Jobs said. "If you could educate these engineers, we could move more manufacturing plants here."
Hard to live in the Bay Area without dealing with lots of tech people who always say that opposite -- that it's hard to find quality engineers. What I gather is that it's really easy to find mediocre and bad engineers, but it's hard to find good ones. This makes sense since not everyone can be a great engineer.
I'm sympathetic to the argument that there are engineers over the age of 40 who have trouble getting jobs, but aren't a lot of them washouts? I surely know quality engineers who are boomers. I certainly know CS-types who are over 40 and have great jobs. Do I just know a sample of really good people?
By the way, reason I thought to ask is that I saw this today -- asserts the opposite of said Patnetters and gives stats on the amount of science, engineering, and math grads, but doesn't really say much other than that:
http://news.investors.com/Article/588637/201110191813/College-Has-Been-Oversold.htm
Over the past 25 years the total number of students in college has increased by about 50%. But the number of students graduating with degrees in science, technology, engineering and math (the so-called STEM fields) has been flat.
Moreover, many of today's STEM graduates are foreign-born and taking their knowledge and skills back to their native countries. Consider computer technology. In 2009 the U.S. graduated 37,994 students with bachelor's degrees in computer and information science. This is not bad, but we graduated more students with computer science degrees 25 years ago.
The story is the same in other technology fields. The United States graduated 5,036 chemical engineers in 2009, no more than we did 25 years ago. In mathematics and statistics there were 15,496 graduates in 2009, slightly more than the 15,009 graduates of 1985.
Few fields have changed as much in recent years as microbiology, but in 2009 we graduated just 2,480 students with bachelor's degrees in microbiology — about the same number as 25 years ago. Who will solve the problem of antibiotic resistance?
If students aren't studying science, technology, engineering and math, what are they studying? In 2009 the U.S. graduated 89,140 students in the visual and performing arts, more than in computer science, math and chemical engineering combined and more than double the number of visual and performing arts graduates in 1985.
As I've said before, nothing wrong with being an art history major if your goal in life is to be a museum curator, but it's not a great general purpose degree or anything for jobs in many other fields, even if it might enrich your mind.
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Dan8267 says
funny thing about their housing bubble is looking at that chart again:
in 1985 their baby boom was hitting 35-39 and their kids were aged 10-14, putting maximal pressure on the housing stock.
In addition, the yen was adjusted down from ~250 to ~150 during the 80s bubble. This gave Japanese trading firms immensely increased buying power and this wealth effect was felt at home. The world was temporarily their oyster in the late 80s.
But Japan's baby boom was a lot narrower than ours, so the demographic pressure soon abated -- the following cohorts were 20% smaller in the 1990s.
And the flipside of the higher yen began hollowing out Japan, moving jobs out to the peripheral markets, and China.
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Dan8267 says
I agree completely with this statement. I earned a BS degree in Nuclear Engineering (ABET 4 year degree) but took my first job out of school to be blue collar worker as an apprentice operator. I now have a Reactor Operator license which is a federally issued license from the NRC (Nuclear Regulatory Commision). The plant can’t be run without licensed people. Hell we can’t even have fuel onsite without a licensed operators. A physical presence is required.
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I'm not sure why anyone would pursue a PhD in science today. If your going to spend that much time and money on higher education, why not go to medical school? Become a specialist, and you will easily make 4 times more than a chemist.
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For engineers who graduated in 2011, they have a 31% unemployment rate. And for the vast majority of those lucky enough to fund jobs, their starting salary was under $30,000. So where is the shortage? Lawyers start out at $160,000 and you NEVER hear anyone argue we have a shortage of lawyers.
http://electronicdesign.com/careers/Infographic2011.aspx
“Too many experienced engineers are currently unemployed,” said a postgraduate student attending the University of Colorado in Denver. “There doesn’t seem to be a stable career path. Job security appears to have disappeared.”
One postgraduate student at Virginia Tech complained: “When I entered my studies in medical physics we were told there was a huge demand and that everyone got a job. Now my friends who have graduated spend months searching and end up taking any job they can find, even if it’s not at all what they wanted.”
http://electronicdesign.com/article/careers/Engineering-Salary-Survey-2011-Faces-of-the-Engineering-Lifecycle/2.aspx
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Bellingham Bill says
It's hard to argue that they cut safety when they didn't have it to begin with :-p
Certainly the argument can be made that they manipulated their currency but then again many countries do simply because oil is priced in dollars. If a currency drops against the dollar there goes the price of energy. I've met fair amounts of Haitians over the past 20 years. In the early 90's when the US embargos were on gas was around $50 a gallon! Even other countries have issues. The former shah of iran actually had to import gasoline due to a lack of refining capacity..so they'd export oil. It would be refined and then we'd charge them to get pretty much their own materials back to them.
Technically under bretton woods the USA manipulated their currency..Italy devalued the lira every now and then..just add a few zeros to the end of it.
In the USA we can make anything. We have the material, manpower, technology etc. But it's the costs and regulations that get us. Chances are we look at china the same way how europeans look at the us.
I agree about Japan. They have significant issues. The nuclear incident alone is going to be quite complicated to compensate people and to deal with for quite a long period of time. Chernobyl I've looked at and if it follows the same pattern they might raise taxes for the area and end up with social ills of anyone living close to the plant (survivors of Chernobyl have higher rates of vices given that if a nuclear incident cannot kill them what can?) They hold massive cash reserves but if they spend it the yen increases in value and hurts their exports...add in some xenophobia and it ain't pretty.
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Bellingham Bill says
It will end badly for China as well. Cutting tons of safety and environmental corners has plenty of consequences, and there will eventually be an environmental movement.
There will also eventually be a labor movement in China. It happened in the Eastern Bloc, and it will someday happen there too.
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China's demographics are interesting too:
When China began ramping up its neomercantilism they had 240M 20 yos:
In 2020, they will have 190M, a loss of 20%:
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thenuttyneutron says
I've always wondered if you had to get security clearance to pursue a nuclear engineering degree. How much big brother do you have to deal with if you get such a degree?
HousingWatcher says
Because some people threw up when they had to dissect a frog in high school. I'm not saying me, but some people. I had a friend who did. Yeah, a friend. His name was John. John Smith.
Besides touching sick people is gross.
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I agree with those that say that we have a shortage of GOOD engineers. I work in a consumer electronic hardware division at my company (parent company is very large), and the pay + benefits are very competitive. We have a heck of a time getting good people, and retaining them. Lots of people come through to interview, but most don't seem to have much real passion for engineering. We don't demand that people live in the office or anything, but we like to see people that have a personal interest in technical work, and that curiosity that drives one to continuously learn. We usually have to go through a lot of candidates until we hit someone that conveys a sense of this. Also, a couple of our good, passionate people got poached by one of our competitors, and it is proving to be a chore to replace them. Good people are in high demand.
I guess I should be happy since it probably means a guaranteed raise for me next year, to try to keep me from jumping-ship (and I have to do their work in the interim). Yeah, I am a huge nerd and consider myself one of the "passionate" engineers...hell, my hobbies outside of work are quite a bit more technical than my work-work. Anyway, I doubt that there is ANY shortage of degreed engineers. There IS a shortage of passionate individuals that love engineering and have the drive necessary to soak up technical knowledge and commit the effort to building an intuitive understanding of new topics.
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HousingWatcher says
Not true at all. Ph.D. chemists can make solidly in the six figures right out the starting gate, and they have ZERO DEBT from graduate school. Many rise through the ranks of big pharma or other large corporations and make huge salaries.
Others take a more entrepreneurial tack and become extremely wealthy in the startup environs. Here in La Jolla you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a chemist who hit it big.
Still others combine a chemistry Ph.D. with another degree such as J.D. or MBA, and go on to highly lucrative careers in IP law or science business.
Of course, many who are less skilled, less motivated, or just plain unlucky chemists who remain at or near the bench. These are the folks who risk being flushed out during lean times.
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If you are looking for something with chemical engineering that isn't pharma based I'd suggest maybe looking at eink. It uses less power than lcd and maybe led but video is starting to creep in. kindle and nook and sony pretty much license the same technologies. Sometime cheap that can replace physical books can become a huge seller in the developing world. Add in some handwriting recognition and it could act as processing of documents as well.
That also reminds me what ever happened to that pharmacist shortage? I thought I remembered hearing some statistic that soon nearly 25% of all prescriptions will just be sent in the mail.
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Pharma is laying off by the boat loads. Good luck finding a chemist job.
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Dan8267 says
I was not required to obtain any clearance to study Nuclear Engineering. I did however go through an extensive background check, took the MMPI, and interview with a psychologist before I was granted unescorted access to the power plant. I have to go through this process every few years.
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Dan8267 says
Gee Dan, it sounds like we've met.
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Nomo's post sounds like the grad school recruitment pitch.
Wonder why that would be?
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thenuttyneutron says
MMPI Scales
Damn, that sounds Orwellian. Especially the part that was design to detect sexual orientation. Doesn't sound like something your employer or the government should know.
One of the sample questions: (True or False) I have diarrhea once a month or more. And Uncle Sam needs to know that why? Another: (True or False) My sex life is satisfactory. ref
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Nomograph says
The question isn’t whether one can do well; the question is how LIKELY one is to do well in a career in science or engineering. The CA lottery has made lots of millionaires but I wouldn’t bet my future on winning big there. The point is that an advanced degree in science requires much more of an investment and is much less likely to pay off than in years past.
Don’t get me wrong, I have met a LOT of scientists over the years including some of those La Jolla chemists you hit with your cat. The sad part is that what you call hitting it big is what used to be a normal life for many but is now only for a few.
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New renter says
That's the gotcha! reality (conveniently) left out of the grad school recruitment pitch.
Without a steady stream of grad students to do her bidding, whatsa poor (state supported) girl to do?
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HousingWatcher says
Actually, the bulk of chemist layoffs were at the BS/MS level. A portion of these jobs have been outsourced to Chinese PhDs, who operate at or below the level of a US-trained BS/MS chemist. These Chinese chemists are managed by US PhD chemists who direct their research. Pfizer has led the charge in this arena, and as you can tell by their pipeline they are flailing.
PhD graduates from top-tier research groups are still getting hired with good salaries, benefits, and relocation packages.
Some of these BS/MS jobs are already coming back to the US as the China experiment is not working out as well. The cost of a scientist FTE in China is currently about 70% of a US FTE and rapidly rising, but the quality is distinctly subpar. Furthermore, the cost benefit does not include the R&D that must occur in the US in order for the Chinese to succeed; they are not innovative, can't handle the hard science, and are largely recipe-driven.
Companies right here in La Jolla who hired new PhD graduates this year include Pfizer, J&J, Novartis, Lilly, and the usual host of small fry.
New renter says
All a PhD, or any other degree for that matter, buys you is a chance to compete. There are no guarantees.
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In fact, here's (at least, there are often multiple openings per description) five plum Big Pharma jobs right here in La Jolla with J&J that are open; some in chemistry and some in biology. There are plenty of others around too, take a look at BioSpace.com or another related website.
You can find these with a simple ten second search:
SCIENTIST
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:21-Sep-2011-Requisition ID 7541110919
Apply
|Add to My Job Cart
RESEARCH ASSOCIATE-Neuroscience Drug Discovery
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:14-Sep-2011-Requisition ID 7083110909
Apply
|Add to My Job Cart
SCIENTIST-Neuroscience Drug Discovery
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:14-Sep-2011-Requisition ID 7002110908
Apply
|Add to My Job Cart
MOLECULAR/CELLULAR NEUROSCIENTIST
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:14-Jul-2011-Requisition ID 2350110624
Apply
|Add to My Job Cart
SENIOR RESEARCH SCIENTIST
North America-United States-California-San Diego
Job Posting:06-Jun-2011-Requisition ID 3944110331
Apply
|Add to My Job Cart
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New renter says
But some of that is a tad hypocritical though. If the argument is that there isn't a whole ton of jobs with in the market well that's because it might require higher degrees. If everyone had a given degree than the value of it goes down.
Naturally the amount of demand dictates the amount of labor that is needed regardless of skill. I worked at a place that had a welder for stainless steel. That requires a tank license in the state. He was paid $75/hr!......sounds huge right....BUT they'd only need him about four hours a week!
A friend of mine does work at a big pharma company and has done pretty well for himself. Yes there have been layoffs but most of that was dead weight (middle..redundant positions after a merger)
Any time a job requires more education/skills you are going to see applicants coming from a much wider area than simply the city or state level.
The other thing to remember is if we want to admit to it or not there are some that cannot find employment due to their actions and the "system" so to speak. Drug tests are performed even at mcdonalds and walmart..that stuff started by just a bit in the 80's. Background checks can sometimes go nearly 30 years back. If you want to work in a form of security and you cannot legally own a firearm that can hold you back. Some require credit checks under the concept that if you directly handle cash or have access to credit information (credit/debit cards and their numbers), ssn's that you cannot work there if you are in debt. If you were in a trial and proven innocent that still can hold people back. Some will even examine civil cases.
Some places are sticklers for standards.
I know of a fire department (quasi governmental authority not a town one). You have to have military experience to be a firefighter in it. If you have a divorce and you are younger he's accused people of having drinking problems..there's no union in it and everyone that works there is part time doing full time work at other fire departments in the area.
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Dan8267 says
Look, I agree there are some people doing hiring who are stupid. For example, I've seen job listings where someone asked for 5 years of experience in something that hasn't even been around for 5 years. But there are people who know what they're looking for who can't find people, despite paying well and knowing what experience someone should have.
Dan8267 says
Yes, I think I'd agree that they need to pay more. But the point is that for the good people, the pay keeps rising. The mediocre people don't deserve pay on that level.
Dan8267 says
I think there is a kernel of truth in this because your process will never be perfect, but there are ways to do it. You can review people's code if they do software, and you can look at their prior work product for other types of work. It's not that hard to figure out when someone's BSing experience.
bmwman91 says
I'd agree with this, but this is probably true of any field. There is a general shortage of intelligent, motivated, passionate individuals in almost any field.
It's sort of like how an MBA will not automatically get you a job. If you went to a non-top 10 school, your MBA is almost worthless -- you probably wasted 2 years of working or however much of your free evenings to get that MBA if you went to certain schools, unless your job prior to B-school required you to get an MBA or paid for it so that you'd come back after graduation. Similarly, just because you are an engineer by degree does not make you a qualified worker.
HousingWatcher says
This is a big myth:
1) this is only for big law firm jobs, which are a very tiny portion of the overall law job market
2) even at many top schools, not that many people end up in big law
3) the median salary for lawyers is actually much much lower because most of the other law jobs pay a lot lower -- there are actually two peaks in the data -- one much lower around $60-70K and one for big firms
We don't really have a shortage of lawyers because, like for MBAs and for many other degrees, lots of people go to crappy law schools to become lawyers and are surprised that they have no job prospects. Law schools are partly to blame because their marketing materials generally lie outright about job prospects -- every school jukes the stats a lot. "Oh that person worked at starbucks, they left the law, so that shouldn't count in the stats..."
Nomograph says
Exactly. It may have been the case that a PhD in the 60s and 70s automatically gave you certain opportunities, but the market is more competitive now. That doesn't mean that it isn't hard to find qualified Chem PhDs -- it still is. Some people went to lower ranked schools and were unimaginative in their dissertation or maybe were just unlucky and didn't get good results. It's no surprise if they don't do as well as high flying, highly-motivated, creative top school grads.
Nomograph says
Exactly. Luck is a factor too.
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Nomograph says
Great - now are any of these these positions active?
I've been in the job market enough to recognize that just because a position is advertised it may not be real or active. Companies go out on fishing expeditions all the time or have a position with an internal candidate already in mind but need to advertise the position for legal reasons. I've also seen job reqs pulled for lack of funding. Heck, the conspiracy minded might accuse employers of running impossible to fill ads to facilitate the shortage myth.
Ever read "The Grapes of Wrath?"
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corntrollio says
Or aren't willing to spend 12+hrs/day 6 days a week in the lab for $30k anymore. A new Chem Ph.D. buddy of mine interviewed at an environmental chemistry company in San Diego which offered him exactly that.
A mutual friend of ours was working in that company. Those were the kind of hours she was putting in herself. She told us that job had only been advertised because the owner was facing a mutiny from his workers. He clearly didn't want to hire anyone, just go through the motions to appear as if he had tried but couldn't find anyone.
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This discussion brought to mind the question why there are no cries of a shortage of "qualified" CEOs and other company officers. Boards are clearly willing to pay enormous sums for even mediocre talent yet there has never seemed to be any concern of a lack of qualified applicants.
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Skip college and try stripping instead:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/25/strippers-in-williston-no_n_1030834.html
Strippers In Williston, North Dakota Raking In $2,000 Per Night In Tips
As thousands of men move to Williston, North Dakota seeking high-paying jobs working for oil companies, area strippers have seen their salaries skyrocket, CNNMoney reports. Strippers claim that they can make $2,000 to $3,000 per night in tips -- more than in typical strip club hot spots like Las Vegas -- dancing for the oil rig workers, many of whom moved to the town without their families.
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New renter says
Certainly those are good points. I would say that red flags would be if the experience required cannot really exist. I remember when Windows XP came out and I saw an ad looking for 8 years experience with it when it was only out for three..
Sometimes jobs are posted internally..other times they aren't. I've seen plenty of jobs on indeed that I found out later weren't posted internally. Of course that frustrates the crap out of employees already there. My first job they actually took out a newspaper ad and didn't tell anyone ahead of time..boy were they pissed.
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zzyzzx says
Tempting...So tempting.
I knew people who took that route. It takes a strange combination of an enormous ego and low self-esteem.
Still does one have to service the VIP lounge for those kind of tips?
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Nomograph says
My issue isn't only whether the jobs are there but whether they pay enough to make up for 7-10 years of low wages and potential student loan debt? If the same job requires a BS and 10-15 years of experience or a Ph.D. with 5 years there is NO point to taking the Ph.D. route.
The key to getting people interested in science and engineering is to show them that the sacrifices they will make have a real chance of paying off and DON'T squander them on expensive boondoggles (I'm looking at YOU space shuttle and international space station!)
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New renter says
I'd be a stripper - if my skin fit better.
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I interviewed a guy today who had a double masters (CS & EE) and more than 8 years of industry experience.
He couldn't implement a trivial serialization problem -- the kind that any first-year CS student should be able to handle.
Anyone who claims there's no shortage is full of shit.
Please, if you know good software engineers in the bay area, NYC, seattle, or boston, send me a message. I could use the referral bonus.
Edit:
And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.
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Kevin says
Great, if you can send me a job description and some contact info I'll be happy to check around. I know quite a few software engineers who may fit your needs.
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elliemae says
Not that I'm into this kind of thing but there are supposed to be clubs that cater to such things. If anything there's always amateur night....
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Kevin says
Last time I was looking for a job (almost 2 years ago) and in the DC - Baltimore area, the going rate was about half that, on a good day.
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New renter says
For $3000 per night, would you really care?
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zzyzzx says
Depends on whether herpes, hepatitis, AIDS, syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea and or crabs are part of the deal
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New renter says
Description is "software engineer". You write code, review code, design documents, go to meetings, work with product/marketing/design people. The same as any other software engineering description.
I could have sworn patrick.net had a way to send private messages to people. Am I imagining things? Email me at patnet+nospam@etnu.org if you want details
zzyzzx says
Well, we pay the same anywhere in the U.S. If someone has the qualifications that the guy I interviewed supposedly had, that's what he would make. That's actually slightly more qualified than I am, and I make more than what I quoted.
I don't know that we have any engineering postions in DC proper, but we do have a pretty big engineering office in the boston area.
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Kevin says
Which is odd, because at that salary, you're offering well above the 90th percentile in terms of salary for all Software Engineers.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm
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thunderlips11 says
That's a salary for a dual masters CS/EE with 8+ years of industry experience. I'd guess that is a bit above the median employee in the BOE stats. Add value for "being able to implement a trivial serialization problem -- the kind that any first-year CS student should be able to handle."
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thunderlips11 says
Yes, we are. That's what you do in order to hire the best people. Frankly, most of the people making $50k are still overpaid relative to the quality of their work (there is such a thing as negative contribution).