WatchThe Catholic Church says new federal regulations requiring employers to provide no-cost prescription birth control as part of their health insurance plans infringe on their religious liberty.
"If we comply, as the law requires, we will be helping our students do things that we teach them, in our classes and in our sacraments, are sinful — sometimes gravely so," Catholic University President John Garvey wrote in The Washington Post. "It seems to us that a proper respect for religious liberty would warrant an exemption for our university and other institutions like it."
OK, I can buy that. But then allowing church owned real estates to be tax free violates my religious freedom as a non-god-fearing atheist. Two hundred years of back taxes please.
The article also mentions:
Indeed, studies have shown that the vast majority of Catholic women in the U.S. use artificial birth control.
This is linked to an article that says:
Some 98 percent of sexually active Catholic women in the United States have used contraceptive methods banned by the church, research published on Wednesday showed.
There you have it; Catholic girls are sluts. As the Catholic Church knows, if you want to use birth control, then you are having sex for reasons other than procreating, and that makes you a slut. Well, by that logic, 98% of Catholic women are sluts.
By the way, should I file this under Religion or Politics? I'm never sure about stuff like this. Actually, maybe this goes under Health Insurance. Ah, when in doubt, Politics.
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Anyway, I should apologize because out of all the minorities -- blacks, Jews, atheists, communists, migrant workers, Latinos, Native Americans, homosexual men -- clearly the Christians have had it the worst in American history.
If only we could get a Christian president, maybe progress could be made in this country.
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Dan8267 says
I am inclined to believe that the outrage is not fake, and of course the outrage boner is equally real.
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Cloud says
This is a straw-man. Science is not a means to say that gods do not exist. There is just no scientific evidence that gods do exist. It is a means to say that there is an almost zero level probability that any of the gods posited by any religion -- christian included -- exist.
If you have any scientific evidence of the existence of a god
I invite you to post it here.
Cloud says
Oh, god not this again...
OK, here is the short answer...
1. Many whom you believe were/are believers were/are probably actually atheists or deists at best, not believers in any type of personal god -- christian or otherwise.
2. Of course they were, for the majority of history humans were living in a world that was overwhelmingly religious and did not yet have many scientific explanations to replace religious ones. These early scientists did pave the way for modern scientists who, with current scientific knowledge, are overwhelmingly atheist.
Scientists will change there views as additional evidence comes to light. Religious people tend to hold on to views that are contrary to new evidence.
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Cloud says
A deist is also not a christian, jew, muslim, hindu, etc. When I say "gods" (plural) I am not talking of any particular sect either.
Cloud says
Wow, you have been able to include two logical fallacies in one sentence: appeal to the majority, and appeal to authority.
Your statement is not a "proof" of the existence of gods. As requested in my previous post if you have any scientific proof please post it.
Cloud says
Yes, some atheists would do just that, but many would not. Many atheists understand what I stated before:
leoj707 says
Many brilliant men/women in history held all sorts of beliefs, not associated with religion, that we consider silly today. In spite of that we still recognize their genius and contributions to our current body of knowledge. Religious people in history had a different knowledge base and therefor are held to a different standard.
Also, the religious/spiritual experience that people get from prayer, mediation, snake handling, etc. is a very real part of the human condition. Even with our modern knowledge there are very bright people today that look to this experience as "proof" that gods exist.
Cloud says
Uhh... by definition atheists can't believe that they are a god. Mormons however believe that one day they will become a god of their very own planet. Maybe you were thinking of them.
Cloud says
Aww... look who the internet tough guy is. Tough talk on the internet is nothing short of adorable. If you were to escalate that to actual personal threats you would get to see Patrick delete a comment.
Let me see if I am getting this right though. You are advocating the threat of physical violence as a means of silencing those you find offensive?
Also, I think you underestimate the patrons of local pubs around the world. While I am sure that there are some where offense would be taken there are many where a toast to the sluttiness of catholic girls would result in glasses raised in agreement and thanks to the catholic church.
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Cloud says
Oh, really? How do you figure? Please highlight the text of my "tough talk" and click the quote so that I can see what you feel is "tough talk". Thanks in advance pal.
Something like this for example:
Cloud says
Speaking of the law on your side I am not sure you understand how "fighting words" work within the law. Let me help you out here buddy lest you find yourself twisting the nose of someone you disagree with and mistakenly think that the law is on your side.
"Fighting words" does not give one the right to start throwing punches the moment they are offended by the speech of another. To be considered "fighting words" they must be intended to breech the peace and incite the listener to violence.
Let me give you two examples:
1. Someone in a bar raises their glass and in a merry tone declares, "Let's all toast in thanks to the catholic church, them slutty catholic girls are a lot of fun. Life would be something less without them."
You promptly get in his face, "Hey! my wife is catholic, how dare you! I bet you would not say that about jewish girls!".
To which he responds, "Don't be so thin skinned, it is all in jest."
You reply, "THEM'S FIGHT'N WORDS!", and promptly begin to twist his nose, as your pants tighten against your outrage boner.
In this scenario you are guilty of battery, and the law is not on your side.
2. Some guy approaches you in a bar and says, "Hey fuck face, I hear that your wife is catholic. Like all catholic girls she is a slut, and has fucked every guy in this bar... twice."
You reply, "THEM'S FIGHT'N WORDS!", and promptly begin to twist his nose, as your pants tighten against your outrage boner.
In this scenario you are correct them's are fight'n words. However, you may want to proceed with caution people who intentionally try and incite others to violence usually know something that you do not. Like perhaps he want the opportunity to wrestle a man with an outrage boner.
I hope this was helpful in keep you out of any trouble.
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Cloud says
Is this directed toward me? If so rather than put words in my mouth please quote my posts that brought you to this conclusion.
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All things aside, last time I checked pregnancy wasn't a disease so I don't know why we have to mandate companies to pay for its prevention. Oh yeah, it's because it is cheaper for the health care companies to cover birth control than pay for child birth. So, we are mandating higher profits for the evil insurance companies? I didn't know the leftwing nutjobs were so far in the tank for those guys.
Check you policy - they cover vasectomies but not vasectomy reversals. Same thing with tubals.
Perhaps we should mandate sterilization if you don't have enough income to support a child. Better yet, perhaps we mandate it after you've had two (unless you are well connected enough to get a waiver). When you get married they can give you a $10k signing bonus to not have kids and get sterilized instead.
Even better, to further the profits and for the betterment of society, we use test during pregnancy to determine if the child has a disease that will burden society and force an abortion if that is the case.
Better yet, we do some DNA testing to see if the parents DNA combination will produce someone that fits in the "master race" (healthy individual that will live in a green manner and has little to no odor in their flatulence, and be an atheist of course). If they fail the test, accept some fertilized boutique embryos or allow some DNA doctoring.
How could this line of thinking possibly go wrong ;) After all, it is for the betterment of society.
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EightBall says
I did, mine does not cover vasectomy/tubals or the reversal.
EightBall says
Yes, the old slippery slope. First we insist that company health plans allow for people to have the choice of covered birth control then the next thing we know we have a forced eugenics program.
Yes... yes... I see how that could be a cause for concern.
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leoj707 says
You obviously were reading too much into this. If the Catholic church doesn't want to pay for birth control, so what! It isn't like they are trying to avoid paying for cancer screenings or something that is an actual disease. If you want a health plan that covers birth control, get a job elsewhere. It isn't like they have a lock on the job market. The argument that they need to pay for it is as absurd as saying this will lead to forced eugenics. Birth control is a choice - much like having as many ankle biters as you see fit to pop out.
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Cloud says
Still no evidence on this, eh?
Cloud says
Why, thank you! I am sorry that the same can not be said for you. I tried to help you out and clarify things a bit for you, but alas your willful ignorance seems to know no bounds. I am here for you buddy, the moment that you are ready to grow beyond your small minded notions.
Cloud says
When did I say that I would call a man's daughter a slut, to his face or otherwise? Is your argument really so impotent and your critical thinking skills so poor that you need to resort to lies? Hmm... I guess so... let me know when you are ready and I can help you learn to craft a response that does not include lies. I am here to help you all you need to do is ask.
Cloud says
I am not sure you understand what the word "hypocrite" means, actually I am positive that you don't.
Let me help you out buddy, after all I just want the best for you.
A hypocrite is someone who claims to advocate for a value but then violates the very value they claim to cherish.
For example lets say someone claims that it is wrong for people to use offensive insults with others. Like say, "catholic girls are sluts". But then the very same person turns around a uses offensive insults like, "coward" or saying someone else lives in a "limp- wristed environ" where they would "cry to [their] momma".
Yes, that type of person would be a hypocrite.
...Oh...
...wait, a second...
That's you isn't it? Sorry buddy I did not realize that it was going there when I started my explanation. Sorry, I did not mean to be insulting, but I think that we can just agree that hypocrisy is something that you are working on. Nobody is perfect right?
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Cloud says
*sigh* no... no, they are not...
When, why and to what degree it is OK to resort to violence is often gone over with great detail in martial arts and CCW classes, not on FOX "news".
Here is an article on the US Concealed Carry site that you will hopefully read before you do something stupid.
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/its-just-the-law/fighting-words/
"Fighting words" does not give one carte blanche to attack the source of perceived insults.
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OK, I must admit that I am probably wrong about something.
EightBall says
Right perhaps I was reading too much into it. Thanks for clarifying.
I agree that birth control is a choice, but I don't think that any employer should de facto make that choice for their employee. I guess we can agree to disagree on that.
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leoj707 says
Oh, the outrage is clearly fake. I get mad sometimes, too, when I see an injustice. But let's take a look at the things that I have gotten angry about on this site.
1 Corporations installing spyware on your smart phone.
2 Police jabbing vital internal organs of protesters with batons and using chemical sprays on the elderly.
3 The national guard burning children to death.
4 Corporations hiriing mercaneries that gun down civilians.
5 A bill in Congress that allows the military should be allowed to break into your home in the middle of the night and kill your entire family.
6 America's use of torture against alledged terrorists, many of which were proven to be innocent.
7 The assassinations of U.S. citizens by our governement without trial or accountability.
8 The killing of civilians by U.S. drone attacks.
9 The promotion of slavery in both the Old and the New Testaments.
10 The police assulting demonstrators exercising their First Ammendment rights.
11 The Twighlight movies turning vampires into glittering vegan pussies.
12 The Greek governement trying to screw over its citizens by stealing their life savings through currency conversion.
13 Philadelphia mayor Wilson Goode in the 1980s literally burned alive men, women, and five children.
14 Our obscene military budget.
15 Government giving lucrative offshore oil drilling rights to greedy corporations who recently caused offshore drilling disaster.
16 Restricting freedom of speech.
17 Posioning of our food by the coal industry.
18 The bold face, deliberate lying at Fox News.
19 Early Christians destroyed the Great Wonders of the Ancient World including the Library of Alexandria and the Statue of Zeus.
20 Christians brutally tortured and murdered Hypatia, the last librarian of Alexandria. In a time when women had few rights, Hypatia was a well-respected philosopher, mathematician, and astronomer. The Christians, who hated independent women, mob rushed her in the streets, tore off all her clothes, and then killed her by removing all her skin with sea shells. This made Jesus's crucifixion look like a picnic. The leader of the premeditated murder, Cyril the Bishop of Alexandria, was ordained a saint by the Christian church.
21 Early Christians oppressed and massacred Jews. This behavior would continue until the 1940s.
22 During the Dark Ages and Middle Ages, Christians burned men, women, and children alive as witches and warlocks even though there are no such things.
24 During the Middle Ages, Christians raged war multiple times on the Middle East in the form of "Crusades", which were nothing more than a religious excuse to rape, pillage, and plunder foreign lands while suppressing domestic populations by keeping them in fear of foreigners. This is a tactic still used today by religion.
25 It is the nature of religions to grow and then fragment as power struggles erupt between would-be kings. This happened to Christianity several times, first in the Great Schism, and later in the protestant reformations. The result of these power struggles was tribal religious warfare the likes of which we see in the Middle East today.
26 Next came the Inquisition in which Christians, now fragmented, systematically tortured and killed anyone who would not submit to being their slaves. The Christians made the most horrific and despicable torture devices like the rack, the Judas Cradle, and the Iron Maiden. Gotta love that religion.
27 Next on the shit list was anyone speaking about provable truths like the Earth going around the Sun. The Christians threaten Galileo with arrest, torture, and death for him and his daughter, thereby silencing him and holding science back.
28 In fact, Christianity held back science by at least a thousand years. If we were 1000 years more advanced, we'd surely have the cures for cancer and AIDS by now. So you can count all the cancer and AIDS death as part of the Christian body count.
29 During the Imperial Age, the Christians brutally enslaved and killed "heathens" from India to America. The Spanish Conquistadors are one example. All in all, Christians would commit genocide, destroying two continents of people in the New World alone. Similar atrocities would be carried out in Africa and Asia.
30 As Christianity has long embraced slavery as god's will and their bible supports enslavement, "heathens" from Africa were made to serve as slaves to the Christians in both Europe and the Americas. The price of this crime against humanity is still being paid today.
31 In America, when slavery was finally abolished by a bloody civil war, a Christian terrorist organization called the Ku Klux Klan continued to wage a bloody war against former slaves and their descendants for the next 100 years.
32 Christians once again committed genocide during the 1930s and 1940s in Europe. The Holocaust was a faith-based initiative just like 9-11.
33 The entire Bush-Cheney reign of terror was heavily based on religion and fighting a religious war against Islam. In Bush's own words, "God told me to invade Iraq" and the Iraq war is a "crusade". And this is the guy who had the nuclear launch codes.
34 The gay bashing that the right does.
35 The destruction of our planet's ability to support life by greedy, polluting corporations.
36 Going to war on the basis of lies.
37 Deliberate misrepresentation of facts for political reasons. And in this case, it was a liberal misrepresenting the facts!
38 The condoning of rape in the Bible.
39 Never take moral advice from a book that is pro-slavery, pro-murder (at many times), xenophobic, homophobic, and downright sexist as the bible.
40 Parasites who become rich by siphoning wealth off of others.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19-34 35-37 38-39 40
And that's just the most recent half of my comment history.
Now compare that to Cloud being "upset" over some random guy on the Internet taking a light-heated jab at the sluttiness of Catholic school girls while writing about the hypocrisy of banning birth control from health insurance.
The fact is there are a hell of lot of things to be outraged about in our society today. My comments are not one of them. Whenever someone picks something so petty and unimportant to be outraged about while ignoring the millions of atrocities that are committed every day in the world, one has to conclude that douche bag is faking the outrage.
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Ah, forgot Evil TSA strip searches your grandma
Hey Cloud, you sack of shit hypocrite, why don't you direct some of your fake outrage at the TSA. Or is molesting Catholic school girls and grandmothers ok with you?
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leoj707 says
I don't think they are arguing that they can't have a job there if they use birth control. They just don't want to pay for it via their health insurance. Since when is employer-provided birth control a workers right? It would be disingenuous for the church to teach that contraception is wrong and then directly cover it. You can argue that they are wrong in their teaching but they are trying to maintain their integrity and for that they deserve respect.
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Dan8267 says
Hmm... I don't know... my toddlers get genuinely upset -- twisting, screaming and writhing -- because they have to wait 60 seconds for me to prepare their milk. While you and I see it as an overreaction, the suffering to them is very real.
You may be right that the outrage is fake, but there is also the possibility that Cloud is a very thin skinned, emotionally immature, sensitive person for whom the outrage feels very real.
Childish... yes...
Unreasonable... yes...
Overreaction... yes...
Real? who knows...
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EightBall says
No, that is not their argument, but from what I understand the catholic church makes you sign a morality agreement when you start working. My guess is that under that agreement they could fire someone for using birth control.
EightBall says
Since the law was passed?
EightBall says
I am all for people sticking to their values and I certainly respect those that do. However, I completely disagree that have no respect for those that force/manipulate/legislate/trick others to live by their religious code.
I totally respect the christian scientist that is willing to shorten their own life for the sake of their belief, but I am totally disgusted by the same person who lets disease maim or kill their child for the same belief.
If christian scientists brought the company you work for do would you be OK with being given the choice to follow their code or quit? Would it be disingenuous for them to teach modern medicine is a lie and at the same time provide it for their employees?
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Cloud says
I have no idea what you think the point of this statement is supposed to be. Let me reiterate:
leoj707 says
Common buddy, third times a charm. This is the last time I am going to respond to the same ridiculous nonsensical statement.
If you insist on eating your own feces, the retching it up onto your keyboard in a naive attempt to try and pound it through to us please I implore you at least be interesting and non-repetitive. You are starting to seem like a very worthwhile candidate for the ignore feature.
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Cloud says
Did you even read the list? Or what the basis was for creating it?
First look at item #32 *Hint: the Holocaust was Hitler*
Also, --as I am sure you know-- Hitler was not an atheist. If you did not already, in this thread, lied about and misrepresented what others have said I might be inclined to think this additional misrepresentation was ignorance on your part, but I am currently more inclined to believe you are knowingly repeating a lie.
Hitler:
1. Advocated and encouraged Germans to attend christian services
2. Had a treaty with the catholic church which made it one of the christian institutions that Hitler advocated
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Cloud says
Thanks, I like to put some thought into what I write. I am glad that you appreciate it.
Cloud says
Hmmm... I am sorry that you feel that way... I was merely trying to explain to Dan how your feelings are truly genuine; it was not intended as an attack. Was I wrong in trying to stickup for you when Dan said your feelings are fake?
Your childish, thin skinned, overreacting and unreasonable behavior characterization was a simple observation based on what you have written in this thread. I am sorry that I clearly struck a nerve with you.
Cloud says
Angry? I am only trying to help you out, and increase your understanding. Hmmmm... not sure why you would characterize that as "angry".
Cloud says
Sooo... you are making that assumption based on my insistence of facts? You certainly like to tack labels on others dont you!
Cloud says
Not sure why you think I am trying to convert anyone. Just trying to set the record straight on your incorrect characterizations and lies.
Cloud says
Apparently you.
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Cloud says
No, because I actually read and comprehend a well written post.
Dan8267 says
Dan was not giving a comprehensive list of the wrong committed in world history. Just his personal posing history of the most recent items he has been outraged about.
Just for comparison I looked at your posting history -- it is short so I could look through it all -- and listed the items that have outraged you.
1. Obama is abandoning the white middle class
2. Obama has not and will not make contributions to humanity
3. Slutty catholic girls
4. Patrick keeping a thread alive that you are offended by
5. Atheists
6. Democrats are owned by Wallstreet
7. Both parties are clowns, but Obama is “More so”
8. We have never seen a transcript of Obama’s grades
9. Dan's list of his most recent outrages
Hmmm... yes I can see why you are disgusted and outraged by Dan's list. The things that seem to outrage you are horrific historical events.
Cloud says
The 1950's called and they want their insult back.
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Cloud says
Now, grasshopper... once you understand the stupidity of the above comment, you will know the stupidity of this comment...
Cloud says
Meditate on that...
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Cloud says
Ummm... no... seriously have you had your reading comprehension checked? There are probably adult learning classes that can help you with that.
Here is what I said:
leoj707 says
But, perhaps you have something to the idea that I should just ignore you though; your circular logic, lies and misrepresentations are enough to put you on ignore.
While it was pretty funny seeing you write:
Cloud says
You might want to keep it down this time you must be making an awful mess of your keyboard.
Your inability to constructively contribute is getting boring.
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Cloud says
You really did not read my post at all did you.
Well... I guess thanks for taking the time to reply any way...?
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OK, cloud let me leave you with this gift. The explanation of why I can't -- not won't -- can't discuss the religious affiliations of historical -- or current for that matter -- figures with you.
You appear to have an unwavering belief that people with whom you admire and/or have contributed to humanity by definition believe in gods, and people who have committed atrocities by definition are atheists.
Regardless any fact, evidence, or even statements these people have made I doubt that your unwavering faith in "good = religious v. evil = atheist" would be shaken.
no discussion possible
Why would I waste my time?
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Why would I waste my time?
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leoj707 says
We are talking about what the government is forcing them (the catholic church) to pay for. Back to my original statement, pregnancy isn't a disease. Why is it such a big deal that they don't want to include it in their health plan? I don't think they are saying it can't be covered by everyone else's health plans.
I agree with you on the christian scientists - that is kooky but more of a straw man when you are talking about "elective" medicine. It is not the same thing.
leoj707 says
Who are they forcing? What are they forcing? They are the ones being forced - you have it backwards. The government is using force/manipulation/legislation to make them live by THEIR "religious" code. It cuts both ways, no?
Cloud says
Dude, you need to run out and get the book How to Win Friends and Influence People. Do you act this way in Sunday school?
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"must be 2 or 3 atheist a-hole losers who could give shit about anyone else except themselves."
Uh, oh EightBall I think you are about to be dubbed an atheist. You ready to have all spiritual beliefs torn from you by an angry sea of ill-reasoned ramblings?
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leoj707 says
Heh, this guys gives idiots a bad name. Someone needs to call the asylum their internet filter is broken.
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EightBall says
Yeah, not the same thing, but I think that I view birth control as perhaps a more "important" component of health care. While birth control is a choice, it is also very necessary for some.
Pregnancy and children are a huge responsibility and not to be taken lightly. It is not a "choice" that should be entered into without a lot of thought.
The choice offered by the catholic church is no sex with your spouse or risk pregnancy. In our world where dual incomes are often required for households to stay above water additional children can push a family closer to or into poverty.
Having the option of birth control lets couple enjoy a health sexual relationship and at the same time significantly reduce the chance of pregnancy. Additional kids -- or perhaps any kids -- is really not a viable choice for some couples.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I think pregnancy/children is not "elective" medicine the same way a nose job, or veneers for teeth are elective.
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leoj707 says
NFP - about as effective as the pill when done right. It is certainly not as easy as popping a pill but it does work.
leoj707 says
There are financial aspects to it sure. We just don't see it the same and that's OK!
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EightBall says
OK, I stand corrected, not no sex, but sex within windows. Not for me, but I guess it can work for some. I remember the trying to get pregnant and the planning evolved there -- not always very sexy.
EightBall says
Yep, and I do appreciate the civil discussion.
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leoj707 says
Damn, once again your analysis is dead on. I didn't realize this since I don't have kids -- that I know of -- hey, I'm a slut -- but you may be right. Here's some facts. Clouds all pissed off at me for a joke, but doesn't seem to mind all the real-world things that should piss someone off. He's paranoid that everyone who doesn't agree 100% with him, must be his polar opposite and therefore pure evil. He obsesses over things, yet can't find the words to express what he wants to get out of this conversation or make a clear call for change. Perhaps Cloud really is a mentally impaired, emotionally immature, sexually frustrated, lonely individual whose only sense of self-worth comes from strangers agreeing with him on the Internet. If so, I would have to be a real asshole to make fun of him. Luckily, I am.
Cloud says
Obviously, I could write dozens of pages on why the Spanish Inquisition was bad. People who have read my previous long posts will have no doubt about that. However, I fail to see why it is necessary in this case. Are you honestly trying to argue that the Spanish Inquisition was a good thing if only one does deep enough analysis? How deep in bullshit do you have to be to make the Inquisition sound good?
Cloud says
Why is it that all the bat-shit crazy ones have no grasp of actual history. Adolph Hitler was a Christian who murdered tens of million of Jews because their religion wasn't his.
As for Stalin, Mao, and other non-religious dictators, I have already addressed that issue in this thread. Had you actually taken the time to read my responses, you would have known that. [Why do all the dumb ones refuse to read?] However, since you are too lazy to click on the link, I'll repeat the relevant section.
Every time atheists show that history is full of examples of religion being used to justify evil and that Christian history in particular has no gaps between its acts of evil, the religious always try to point to Communism as the one and only example of atheists doing bad things.
Yes, I will concede that atheists can do evil. No crap. Statistically, they are far less likely. Furthermore, Stalin and Mao did not do evil because they are atheists, but rather because they are dictators. To argue that Stalin was evil because he was an atheist makes as much sense as arguing that Stalin and Hitler were evil because they both had mustaches. Gee, I guess Charlie Chaplin and Tom Selleck must also be evil bastards.
[Topless image of Tom Selleck omitted. Sorry, you'll have to go to the original posting to see that.]
You can tell he's evil by the mustache.
However, the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Crusades, the destruction of the Library of Alexandria, the murder of Hypatia, and everything else I mentioned was directly and intrinsically motivated by religion. That's the difference.
Stalin was coincidentally an atheist and would have been a fucking asshole even if he was Christian. The motherfuckers in the Inquisition tortured people directly because of their religion. Totally different. To attempt to imply that Communism is evidence that atheism is bad is disingenuous. To attempt to imply that the Spanish Inquisition is evidence that religion is bad is not.
Yet, I'll have to listen to this false argument again and again for ever because it's the only ammunition the religious have against atheism.
Cloud says
1. A laundry list of people who believe in mysticism doesn't make it true. Especially when many of those people would be atheists if they lived today instead of during more primitive times.
2. Homer, Socrates, and Plato were polytheists. They did not believe in your god but many others. They were also gay pedophiles, so wouldn't you hate them?
3. There are no great kings.
4. Really, appealing to U.S. presidents as a basis for believing in something? Have you seen the people who have been elected?
5. Your calling Obama a great man? I'm a bit surprised. Is that an admission that he's a good president with good ideas or are you so batshit crazy you can't keep track of who you hate? In any case, I would disagree that Obama is great, but I fail to see what he has to do with this discussion at all.
6. It's hard for science to change the minds of people who have been dead for years, centuries, or millennia. I hope you can understand that.
7. I've come up with many thoughts that the people you listed didn't. That's part of the advantage of living in the modern world. I can think about the atomic structure of the universe or the effects of time dilation. Socrates couldn't. I can program a computer. Plato never owned one in his life. I know about Calculus and modern science. If only you did too, you could come up with good ideas.
Cloud says
Don't dish it out if you can't take it. You have done nothing but attack people in your postings, including the person generous enough to provide this wonderful website.
leoj707 says
I think he's arguing proof by fame. You know, the reason why people take vaccination advice from Jenny McCarthy.
The doctor will see you now.
Cloud says
The list I provided was a list of things I posted on this site that expressed my legitimate outrage as oppose to your fake outrage. As for Stalin being an atheist, I had already address that (see above). However, the reason I never posted a thread expressing my outrage at Stalin is because he's utterly irrelevant to today's events. You see, everything else I posted was either a current event or a response to someone else's posting.
Now I will go on the record as stating the Joseph Stalin and Vladimir Lenin were complete assholes and the world would have been better if they never existed. And if the subject of Russian history ever came up, I would certainly not whitewash the roles of these tyrants. However, the subject of Russian history was never relevant to any discussion I have had on this site.
There are lots of things that piss me off that I never mention on this site because it has nothing to do with any of the forums' subjects. Things like, some fucking bitch throwing puppies into a river. That really pissed me off, but I never brought it up on this site because it has nothing to do with the subject matter of this site.
Another example… Recently a heroic dog saves kittens tossed into bag and left on road. On one hand, I was inspired by the heroic actions of the dog, but on the other hand, I was absolutely disgusted with my species that it would produce an individual that would "heartlessly tossed the kittens into the bag and onto the road, sealed several kittens inside the bag and then subsequently left the bag in the road where it was hit by a car.". Nevertheless, this isn't the kind of thing I would post on patrick.net because it's not relevant to this site's content.
Maybe if you stopped assuming what my intentions are and started listening, you'd learn something, Cloud.
Cloud says
The fact that you would actually say this is proof that you are a dumb ass with no understanding of history. There's an old saying, "you can have your own opinions, but not your own facts".
Cloud says
Again, history disproves your entire thesis.
Cloud says
In all seriousness, you need to take a community class in writing. How old are you? If the answer is over 12, then you really need to get a better mastery of the English language. Your writing is so atrocious that it is difficult to extrapolate what you are trying to say. And your bitchy attitude does not help.
Cloud says
I'll field this.
Carl Sagan
Alan Turing
Bertrand Russell
Christopher Hitchens
Richard Dawkins
Matt Ridley
Marie Curie
Billy Joel
George Carlin
Noam Chomsky
Steven Fry
And that's just who I admire. Although I'm not particularly a fan of the following, other famous atheists people admire include:
Ernest Hemingway
H. P. Lovecraft
Thomas Edison (I'm more of a Nikola Tesla fan.)
Frank Lloyd Wright
Jean Paul Sartre
Ayn Rand, the poster girl of the right
Bill Gates, the most successful capitalist
Warren Buffett, the second most successful capitalist
Of course, your free to take your pick of who you like in this extensive list or to watch this video of famous atheists. Shit, Angelina Jolie has to be the hottest atheist.
Cloud says
So, an atheist is anyone who doesn't agree with you? I've actually read many of leoj707's responses and I have no idea whether or not he/she is an atheist or evidently whether he/she is a he or she. All I know is that leoj is way more rational than you, Cloud.
Cloud says
Well, now you have your list (see above). Is it going to make a difference? Are you going to see the light? No. So it was a pointless exercise then.
Cloud says
Shit man, have a little patience. You do know I have a day job. I can't constantly be responding to your asinine ramblings. Give me a day to get back to you.
By the way, Alan Turing alone is worth a billion of you.
leoj707 says
Yes, let's go over the list of things that piss off Cloud.
1. Obama is abandoning the white middle class
I don't see how race is relevant to Obama's policies and it seems stupid to call Obama a racist. However, I would actually agree that Obama's policies are harmful to the middle class. But what, how can I say that if I'm a left-wing nutcase who always attacks the right and upholds the left as an ideological heaven?
Oh wait, I've always said Obama is a bad president. And unlike the pansies on the right who accuse me of being an irrational liberal, excuse me, liberduh, I gave 10 reasons why Obama sucks of which five warrant the death penalty. To this date, no conservative has had the balls to give me a list of ten reasons why George W. Bush sucked ass. Care to take up that challenge Cloud? Ah heck, Bush has been out of office for so long it doesn't much matter anymore. How about 10 reasons Reagan sucked ass.
2. Obama has not and will not make contributions to humanity
Again, I would actually agree with this statement. I wouldn't be outraged by it, but I don't expect much from politicians. As long as they don't violate human and civil rights, I don't get pissed at them.
3. Slutty catholic girls
Yeah, I'm still going with "fake outrage" on this one.
4. Patrick keeping a thread alive that you are offended by
I thought you conservative types where suppose to be for personal responsibility and against a nanny state. Why do you want big Patrick to solve your problems? Learn how to write and then make a case for conservatism.
5. Atheists
Yeah, atheists piss me off too. They are so arrogant. I guess that what happens when you stop burning them alive at the stake for a few hundred years.
6. Democrats are owned by Wallstreet
No. Republicans are owned by Wall Street. Democrats are owned by unions.
Yes, both parties are bought out. But the Republicans are bought out by a much scarier set of special interest groups like: the industrialize war machine, mercenary groups like Blackwater, the largest polluters, transnational corporations that answer to no one, and the very assholes in the financial services sectors who took down our entire economy, twice! Once in 1929 and again in 2008. Compared to that, tenured history professors don't scare me.
7. Both parties are clowns, but Obama is “More so”
Obama seems to me to be just a puppet, but no more so than every single Republican candidate except Ron Paul.
8. We have never seen a transcript of Obama’s grades
Where did this come from? What does Obama's grades have to do with anything? His predecessor was no genius. And after three years on the job, I think we can evaluate Obama's job performance without looking at his grades or his birth certificate or any other bullshit.
9. Dan's list of his most recent outrages
The problem is that Cloud doesn't have any outrage over the things that have outraged me. Hence, I doubt his sincerity.
Cloud says
No, we're just smarter than you Cloud. Of course, retarded monkeys are smarter than you.
As for people who are smarter than I am, Alan Turing, Kurt Gödel, and Carl Friedrich Gauss come to mind. But then again, I actually read the works of men such as these. Do you?
-----------------------------------------------
Christ, I just realized that I'm only half way through Cloud's nearly endless diatribe of nonsense. And I've already written more than I should have to in order to refute this dumb ass. I refuse to waste more time on this shit especially since the buffoon keeps repeating himself.
Hopefully, I've said enough so that everyone thinks that Cloud is a dumb ass. If any rational person believes that Cloud has any point that might possibly have the slightest bit of merit that I did not address, please let me know and I will squash that bug as well.
Absent that, I will end this by saying that Cloud's trolling is utterly a waste of this communities time. His belligerent attitude and baseless attacks have added nothing to the conversation and has only served as a distraction (albeit a funny one at times).
At no time does Cloud put forth a coherent thesis, proposal, or call to change. He offers no constructive criticism, no honest debate on philosophies or principles, and no justification for his hostilities. A cynical judge might conclude that Cloud is actually an extremely jaded left-winger posing as a retarded right-winger for the purpose of making conservatives look like idiots. Even shrekgrinch won't come to Cloud's defense.
[In all fairness, shrekgrinch has been much more calm and rational since being banned and reincarnated. Perhaps he's finally taking his medicine. Or maybe, Cloud is shrekgrinch's Mr. Hyde personality under a new account. Cloud was registered very recently.]
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man is this a thread...
Anyways getting back to topic I think that the argument would make sense maybe if and only if religions paid taxes. It is hard for anyone to argue that money is going to a bad place or policy when they haven't paid for it to begin with.
In any argument with religion..faith..lack of faith it should be understood that simply calling oneself of a given group(s) does not exactly mean they are 100% of that. How many people that are religious can actually say more than a paragraph of scripture? Religions are more about the way how individuals act rather than anything of governance. The 10 commandments state "Thou" meaning "you". It did not say "Thee" meaning "Them"
Without going further I would HIGHLY recommend anyone reading this thread to read this book
www.amazon.com/Believing-Bullshit-Sucked-Intellectual-Black/dp/1616144114 yeah it can be a bit blunt but it makes the point.
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Cloud, you are the reason why people need to be careful not to slip when they are trying to have anal sex, the Catholic birth control.
Not only are you so ignorant as to not know that ancient Greece was a polytheistic culture, you also seem to not know that Christians, not atheists, have the stick up their ass when it comes to homosexuality. You constantly and deliberately "misinterpret" what other people say, and instead of seeking some meaningful resolution to conflict, you thrive off of creating discord. You are a pitiful worm and a waste of this forum's attention.
And event after all your inane ramblings, no one here even has a clue about what the fuck you actually want.
Do you want me to commit suicide?
Fuck you. Unlike you, I have friends and a meaningful life. I'm pretty happy in this world despite the existence of dip shits like you. As annoying as your trolling is, it doesn't make my life worse, because you see, I can actually get laid. There is nothing lower than someone who takes his pubescent sexual frustrations out on random people on the Internet. You are the definition of loser.
Do you want patrick.net to stop reporting news that makes Republicans look bad?
Sorry, but that would mean not reporting any news. It's not our fault that the Republicans have chosen the wrong side in The War Against the Middle Class -- trademarked! If Republicans want to improve their reputations, they have to stop harming the masses of middle class people to increase the opulence of 0.1% of the population.
Do you want us all to drink the religious Kool Aide?
Fuck that. You Christians have been in charge for the past 1600 years. During that time you have raped, murdered, and pillage. So let's try rationality for the next 1600 years and see how that works out. If you are any indication of what Christians today are like, then you have made a far better case against being a Christian than I ever could. You are proof that Christians do not at all believe in any of the principles that Jesus allegedly espoused.
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Dan8267 says
I am not Cloud. I don't like having discussions via chat rooms because the conversations always seem to devolve into name calling. However, what you said about women was so offensive to me that I had to make an objection. Honestly, I agreed with most of your original post until I got to the last part. It's not okay to throw that word out so capriciously.
There seems to me to be a lot of push back on women's rights lately. I've read a lot of stories about religious organization's leaders trying to push more and more restrictions on women. In New York, a conservative Jewish sect is making the women of their congregation sit in the back of buses because "that's Gods law." Recently, at BYU, a Mormon university, a woman student was not allow in class because she was wearing skinny jeans and they considered that immodest. The word slut is used to shame and control women. No one who believes that men and women deserve equality should use that word. And when you hear someone use it, you need to speak up!
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Cloud says
Keep saying that. It proves that you aren't offended by it. After all, I just called you the failed result of an attempt at anal sex. If anything, you would have taken offense at that. So it is quite transparent that you just keep repeating your fake outrage because you believe it will make others hate me. Sorry, but the other people on patrick.net aren't that stupid.
Still, this is exactly the kind of behavior one would expect from a pedophile like you. Feel free to get the last word, I'm done humoring you.
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Cloud says
Unfortunately the English and grammar attempted here is so bad, I have no idea what his point is. Can someone translate?
P.S. My personal experience is that Catholic girls are not sluts, just sexually liberated and very very horny.
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leoj707 says
In fact, was the very first (or second, I think the first might have been confirming that the 3rd Reich, like Previous German governments, recognized the status of Lichtenstein, a formality) treaty Hitler signed was with the Catholic Church.
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Dan8267 says
Jolies not bad, but I'm more into Asia Carrera.