I'm sorry, but this is choice

By marcus   follow   Wed, 4 Jan 2012, 9:42am PST   ↑ Like (1)   ↓ Dislike (1)   5,850 views   50 comments   Watch (0)   Share   Quote  

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thunderlips11   befriend (12)   ignore (2)   Fri, 13 Jan 2012, 4:04am PST   Like   Dislike (2)     Share   Quote   Comment 11

wthrfrk80 says

Really? The Russian communists didn't form hierarchical power structures?

Do you think that was caused by the Atheism or the belief in the dictatorship of the proletariat and the fact that the Bolsheviks believed they needed organization to implement it?

freak80   befriend (0)   ignore (6)   Fri, 13 Jan 2012, 5:04am PST   Like   Dislike (1)     Share   Quote   Comment 12

Dan8267 says

However, those actions were exactly caused by faith. The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the slaughter of Native Americans by the Conquistadors after the natives refused to worship Jesus, the murder of Hypatia, the destruction of the Library of Alexandria, the Holocaust of the Jews, GW Bush invading Iraq because god told him to do so. I could go one endlessly, and have in previous threads.
To deny that these actions were committed not because of theism is a bold face lie. So it is fair to hold the 3500 years of evil done in the name of faith against faith.

Dan,

No one disputes that the church of the middle ages was corrupt and dysfunctional. This was the church that was selling forgiveness of sins to help pay the bills. Yes, it did all of those nasty things you describe. Wasn't it the reformer Martin Luther that called the Pope "The Antichrist"? Martin Luther would probably agree with your assesment of the church of his day.

It's just dishonest to assert that Christianity equals the church of the middle ages. Yes, the period between Constantine and the Reformation was a very dark and horrible time in the history of Christianity. That's why I personally agree with keeping secular government out of the church...for the sake of the church. As soon as the church got into the inherently evil and bloody business of politics, government, and warfare, it pretty much imploded.

freak80   befriend (0)   ignore (6)   Fri, 13 Jan 2012, 5:06am PST   Like   Dislike     Share   Quote   Comment 13

thunderlips11 says

Do you think that was caused by the Atheism or the belief in the dictatorship of the proletariat and the fact that the Bolsheviks believed they needed organization to implement it?

I don't know the details about the Bolsheviks, so I cannot comment. My point was simply this: the lust for power exists in both the religious and non-religious.

thunderlips11   befriend (12)   ignore (2)   Fri, 13 Jan 2012, 6:06am PST   Like   Dislike (1)     Share   Quote   Comment 14

wthrfrk80 says

I don't know the details about the Bolsheviks, so I cannot comment. My point was simply this: the lust for power exists in both the religious and non-religious.

I agree, atheism doesn't prevent hierarchies. But atheism itself does not engender hierarchy, because it isn't a belief system.

Bap33   befriend (3)   ignore (6)   Fri, 13 Jan 2012, 7:25am PST   Like   Dislike (1)     Share   Quote   Comment 15

thunderlips11 says

But atheism itself does not engender hierarchy, because it isn't a belief system.

you seldom are wrong, but I think you are wrong on that one. Atheism is absolutly a system of belief in something, even if the "something" is that nothing caused everything to happen from nothing forever.

All of the actions Dan shared have been committed by humans that did not know or believe in any God or any type. So, the prmise that says a belief in God makes those things happen is not supported.

In the history of man, the successfull groups had a moralistic society that fostered the required envirnoment for most of the advancements of man. They had a belief system based on other-than-man.

God is absolutly the power and substance behind the universe - all power, good and bad, comes from God. All substance, positive and negative, comes from God. All expansion and contraction, light and dark, ect ect. Yin and Yang - God made 'em.

RE: Dan's Pie Chart. The Arabs and the Christians believe in the same God. I'm pretty sure.

And, one more time, the CATHOLIC CHURCH ACTIVITY is not the measure of CHRISTIANITY. It is a lie being told over and over that blurs the line between the Church of God, and the Church of Europe

Dan8267   befriend (17)   ignore (12)   Fri, 13 Jan 2012, 1:23pm PST   Like   Dislike (1)     Share   Quote   Comment 16

wthrfrk80 says

Dan8267 says

Except that atheists don't form hierarchical power structures like theists do.

Really? The Russian communists didn't form hierarchical power structures?

I don't think theists are the only ones that try to wield power.

See this posting. In fact, read the whole thread.

Dan8267   befriend (17)   ignore (12)   Fri, 13 Jan 2012, 1:25pm PST   Like   Dislike (2)     Share   Quote   Comment 17

Bap33 says

All of the actions Dan shared have been committed by humans that did not know or believe in any God or any type.

Really, the Spanish Inquisitors were atheists? Way to rewrite history.

Dan8267   befriend (17)   ignore (12)   Fri, 13 Jan 2012, 1:27pm PST   Like   Dislike (2)     Share   Quote   Comment 18

Bap33 says

And, one more time, the CATHOLIC CHURCH ACTIVITY is not the measure of CHRISTIANITY.

Of course Catholicism is just one branch of Christianity, but it is hardly the only branch that has committed atrocities as I have shown many, many times. For example, it wasn't the Catholics justifying slavery in America by quoting the bible. Those were protestants in the Bible Belt.

Dan8267   befriend (17)   ignore (12)   Fri, 13 Jan 2012, 1:32pm PST   Like   Dislike (1)     Share   Quote   Comment 19

So, how many people here have kiss Hank's ass?

The theists in this thread certainly act like the two suits in that video.

Bap33   befriend (3)   ignore (6)   Sat, 14 Jan 2012, 1:34pm PST   Like (1)   Dislike     Share   Quote   Comment 20

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says



All of the actions Dan shared have been committed by humans that did not know or believe in any God or any type.


Really, the Spanish Inquisitors were atheists? Way to rewrite history.

What I was trying to say is those things have been done by Godless people ALSO, not ONLY ... I see how my writing messed that up. Sorry.

Bap33   befriend (3)   ignore (6)   Sat, 14 Jan 2012, 1:36pm PST   Like   Dislike     Share   Quote   Comment 21

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says



And, one more time, the CATHOLIC CHURCH ACTIVITY is not the measure of CHRISTIANITY.


Of course Catholicism is just one branch of Christianity, but it is hardly the only branch that has committed atrocities as I have shown many, many times. For example, it wasn't the Catholics justifying slavery in America by quoting the bible. Those were protestants in the Bible Belt.

Lets use the OccupyWallStreet movement for example. There have been lots of rapes and drugs and filth done by people why say they are part of the movement, or done at functions held by the movement. Right. Does that mean that all OWS people are rapists or druggies?

Dan8267   befriend (17)   ignore (12)   Sun, 15 Jan 2012, 2:40am PST   Like   Dislike (2)     Share   Quote   Comment 22

Bap33 says

There have been lots of rapes and drugs and filth done by people why say they are part of the movement, or done at functions held by the movement. Right.

There have been a lot of rapes at Occupy Wall Street? Um, I haven't heard about that. If there were, please post article links in the Politics forum.

As for drugs, I take it you are referring to the arbitrary set of drugs that are illegal as opposed to the plethora of drugs that are more dangerous and legal.

So what if there is always some guy smoking weed at a protest or a concert. About half of Americans think weed should be legal.

A strong majority of Americans believe marijuana should be legal for medical purposes, but just over half say that pot use for recreation should be illegal, according to a new poll Friday.

According a recent CBS News poll conducted at the end of October, a slim majority of 51 percent continues to think that marijuana use should be illegal. But support for specifically allowing doctors to prescribe marijuana for serious medical conditions - or legalized "medical" marijuana - is far stronger: 77 percent Americans think it should be allowed.

Claiming that pot smoking is immoral is ridiculous. Claiming that the KKK, the support of slavery, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Iraq War II, and the Holocaust were immoral is quite sensible.

As for druggies, the vast majority of Americans are druggies. They just use the drugs that have been made legal by the pharmaceutical industry as oppose to the ones made illegal by that industry. And have no doubt, it the the pharmaceutical industry, not Congress, that decided which drugs should be legal.

And this is all coming from someone who has never smoked pot or tobacco in his life.

Bap33   befriend (3)   ignore (6)   Sun, 15 Jan 2012, 1:44pm PST   Like   Dislike (1)     Share   Quote   Comment 23

Dan8267 says

There have been a lot of rapes at Occupy Wall Street? Um, I haven't heard about that. If there were, please post article links in the Politics forum.

I did as you asked.

Bap33   befriend (3)   ignore (6)   Sun, 15 Jan 2012, 1:47pm PST   Like   Dislike     Share   Quote   Comment 24

Dan8267 says

And this is all coming from someone who has never smoked pot or tobacco in his life.

I too have never done those, plus I have never been drunk. Not even once. My vice came from Adam's rib! lol

Bap33   befriend (3)   ignore (6)   Sun, 15 Jan 2012, 1:48pm PST   Like   Dislike     Share   Quote   Comment 25

Dan8267 says

For example, it wasn't the Catholics justifying slavery in America by quoting the bible.

a link of something for this, please.

freak80   befriend (0)   ignore (6)   Sun, 15 Jan 2012, 10:35pm PST   Like   Dislike     Share   Quote   Comment 26

Dan8267 says

Then I suspect that a good percentage of the Christians aren't believers.

Dan, you and I finally agree on something! We should have a beer together to celebrate.

freak80   befriend (0)   ignore (6)   Sun, 15 Jan 2012, 10:45pm PST   Like   Dislike (1)     Share   Quote   Comment 27

I'm willing to bet that if you asked most "Christians" if they believed that

1) Jesus is God
2) Jesus will judge the world at the end of history
3) Jesus death was a substitutionary atonement for sin

they would probably say "no, that's wierd, I don't believe that at all..."

A lot of "Christianity" in America is what one person has called "moralistic therapudic deism"

Dan8267   befriend (17)   ignore (12)   Mon, 16 Jan 2012, 12:47am PST   Like   Dislike (3)     Share   Quote   Comment 28

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

For example, it wasn't the Catholics justifying slavery in America by quoting the bible.

a link of something for this, please.

You want a link that the Southern states were full of protestants not Catholics?

Read this reply again and then do a Google search on

- Jefferson Davis
- Rev. Alexander Campbell
- Rev. R. Furman

Dan8267   befriend (17)   ignore (12)   Mon, 16 Jan 2012, 1:23am PST   Like   Dislike (1)     Share   Quote   Comment 29

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

There have been a lot of rapes at Occupy Wall Street? Um, I haven't heard about that. If there were, please post article links in the Politics forum.

I did as you asked.

I'd recommend renaming that thread to "Sexual Assaults Reported in 'Occupy' Camps" so that more people will read it and discuss the issue. I've always wondered how many young men attend protests simply to try to get sex.

P N Dr Lo R   befriend (1)   ignore (3)   Mon, 16 Jan 2012, 3:51am PST   Like   Dislike (1)     Share   Quote   Comment 30

wthrfrk80 says

I'm willing to bet that if you asked most "Christians" if they believed that
1) Jesus is God
2) Jesus will judge the world at the end of history
3) Jesus death was a substitutionary atonement for sin
they would probably say "no, that's wierd, I don't believe that at all..."

Well then I don't fall into the category of "most Christians" because those are indeed the things I believe! And I'd also say that the majority of other Christians I know believe them as well.

freak80   befriend (0)   ignore (6)   Mon, 16 Jan 2012, 6:01am PST   Like   Dislike     Share   Quote   Comment 31

P N Dr Lo R says

Well then I don't fall into the category of "most Christians" because those are indeed the things I believe! And I'd also say that the majority of other Christians I know believe them as well.

I hope you're right! I just haven't had much luck finding Christians that still believe in anything that resembles historic Christianity. Maybe I just spend too much time on the internet...

Bap33   befriend (3)   ignore (6)   Mon, 16 Jan 2012, 1:11pm PST   Like   Dislike     Share   Quote   Comment 32

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says



Dan8267 says



For example, it wasn't the Catholics justifying slavery in America by quoting the bible.


a link of something for this, please.


You want a link that the Southern states were full of protestants not Catholics?


Read this reply again and then do a Google search on


- Jefferson Davis
- Rev. Alexander Campbell
- Rev. R. Furman

I mis-read your post to say " it WAS Catholics that quoted the Bible ....". My badness on that one. Your post is correct.

Bap33   befriend (3)   ignore (6)   Mon, 16 Jan 2012, 1:14pm PST   Like   Dislike     Share   Quote   Comment 33

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says



Dan8267 says



There have been a lot of rapes at Occupy Wall Street? Um, I haven't heard about that. If there were, please post article links in the Politics forum.


I did as you asked.


I'd recommend renaming that thread to "Sexual Assaults Reported in 'Occupy' Camps" so that more people will read it and discuss the issue. I've always wondered how many young men attend protests simply to try to get sex.

I have said many times that we (males) do what we do for sex. That's what drives us. And, that may be just how it is supposed to be.

Dan8267   befriend (17)   ignore (12)   Mon, 16 Jan 2012, 1:30pm PST   Like   Dislike (2)     Share   Quote   Comment 34

I do think it's a far cry to go from a couple of sleazeballs taking advantage of Occupy Wall Street to making the claim that the Occupy Wall Street movement is full of rapists. I don't see how the crimes committed by a few individual invalidate the entire Occupy Wall Street movement especially since the crimes have nothing to do with the movement or the vast majority of its people.

Now, that doesn't mean I think the OWS movement is any good, but it's certainly not bad for what you are implying.

Bap33   befriend (3)   ignore (6)   Mon, 16 Jan 2012, 2:02pm PST   Like (1)   Dislike     Share   Quote   Comment 35

oh contre', I was not suggesting anything, I used the issue to support my point that was given in light of your wink/nod about Catholic Church behavior (the OWS sleaze) and the Christian Church of God (the OWS movement). That is where the mention came from. It's up there a little ways.

Bap33   befriend (3)   ignore (6)   Mon, 16 Jan 2012, 2:04pm PST   Like   Dislike (1)     Share   Quote   Comment 36

oh contre', I was not suggesting anything, I used the issue to support my point that was given in light of your wink/nod about Catholic Church behavior (the OWS sleaze) and the Christian Church of God (the OWS movement). That is where the mention came from. It's up there a little ways.

""I don't see how the crimes committed by a few individual invalidate the entire (movement)"" - Dan

Dan8267   befriend (17)   ignore (12)   Tue, 17 Jan 2012, 9:40am PST   Like   Dislike     Share   Quote   Comment 37

Ok, so we agree that a few individuals do not invalidate a movement. However, the atrocities committed by the Christian church and later by its splinter churches over the past 2000 years is not a few bad apples. You can't get more systematic than 20 centuries of murder, rape, theft, and torture.

There's a big difference between a few scumbags infiltrating OWS for a lay and a church, well-armed with a military, laying waste to multiple continents.

marcus   befriend (5)   ignore (1)   Tue, 17 Jan 2012, 10:49am PST   Like   Dislike (1)     Share   Quote   Comment 38

I honestly don't know whether the good done by Christianity (including Catholicism) is greater than the harm, but I do know what to make of an analysis that is based entirely on looking only at the good or only at the bad.

A couple of quick internet sources on the good the Catholic church has done. My guess is that most of these can be verified with time. Many are well known.

http://indigosociety.com/showthread.php?44038-The-good-the-Catholic-Church-has-done

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091230162823AAThWXD

I fully expect criticism of these lame sources - especially the yahoo one, but hey it comes from an individual, you can easily challenge any of the positives he or she cites. I don't have time.

marcus   befriend (5)   ignore (1)   Tue, 17 Jan 2012, 10:51am PST   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Share   Quote   Comment 39

Dan8267 says

You can't get more systematic than 20 centuries of murder, rape, theft, and torture.

What a mindless ingrate.

Dan8267   befriend (17)   ignore (12)   Tue, 17 Jan 2012, 12:02pm PST   Like   Dislike (2)     Share   Quote   Comment 40

Geeze, I must have fucked Marcus's mom or something because he's seriously entering psycho stalker territory.

Hey Marcus, whatever I did to fuck up your life, I'd like to say I'm sorry. Unfortunately, I'm not because you seem like a dick. Plus, it's hard to apologize when you don't know what the hell you did to upset someone.

But anyway, if you're so offended by something someone on the Internet said that you can't ever let it go, that's kind of pathetic. Go outside and make some friends. Your life won't seem so empty, and you won't feel the need to constantly attack strangers on the Internet.

marcus   befriend (5)   ignore (1)   Tue, 17 Jan 2012, 12:38pm PST   Like   Dislike (2)     Share   Quote   Comment 41

Dan8267 says

Go outside and make some friends. Your life won't seem so empty, and you won't feel the need to constantly attack strangers on the Internet.

Lol. I was working today. I haven't and wouldn't read even 1/10th of the 1000s of words you wrote today on Patnet, but I did notice this in a random one of your 25 posts and 3 new threads today.

Dan8267 says

Marcus makes conjectures that have no evidence to support them. I make statements that are well supported and almost always reference them. If I'm explaining an entire subject matter, I don't reference every single sentence. But if I say anything that is contested, even by a fool like Marcus, I back it up with support. That's the difference.

This was in a conversation with someone else, that was unrelated to me, or anything I said. And you want to suggest that I'm stalking you ? I need to get a life?

My comment above is about what you said. And I guess it is related to another question I asked you which is, can you think of any good done by Christianity ? I know you won't answer it, but if anything, considering I asked you that, I would say you are still trolling.

Also, the only reason you aren't on ignore again yet, is that I'm waiting to see if you are man enough to back up your claim of "bullshit" yesterday and take me up on a bet. Although I know you won't for a variety of reasons.

Dan8267 says

Geeze, I must have fucked Marcus's mom or something because he's seriously entering psycho stalker territory.

Classy.

(edit: btw regarding my "conjectures" again wtf ? My argument has centered around one and only one thing, and that is your lack of logic. You're the moron who confuses your personal belief with "proving the truth" maybe you can comprehend how my being a Math guy that bothers me. Look at Bellinham Bill/Bob/Troy or Iwog, they do what you claim you do, they back up their sound reasoning, but they understand how to write. It's implied that it is your belief, you can state it as if it is fact, and you do your best to back it up. But when you say you have "proven the truth," when have done nothing close to that ? That borders on mental illness, or possibly just immaturity and lack of writing experience. )

Bap33   befriend (3)   ignore (6)   Tue, 17 Jan 2012, 2:25pm PST   Like   Dislike     Share   Quote   Comment 42

I don't think I'd be mad if you boinked my mom. Thats her deal, not mine.