I'm sorry, but this is choice


By marcus   Follow   Wed, 4 Jan 2012, 5:42pm   3,668 views   50 comments
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  1. thunderlips11


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    11   12:04pm Fri 13 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)  

    wthrfrk80 says

    Really? The Russian communists didn't form hierarchical power structures?

    Do you think that was caused by the Atheism or the belief in the dictatorship of the proletariat and the fact that the Bolsheviks believed they needed organization to implement it?

  2. freak80


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    12   1:04pm Fri 13 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Dan8267 says

    However, those actions were exactly caused by faith. The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the slaughter of Native Americans by the Conquistadors after the natives refused to worship Jesus, the murder of Hypatia, the destruction of the Library of Alexandria, the Holocaust of the Jews, GW Bush invading Iraq because god told him to do so. I could go one endlessly, and have in previous threads.
    To deny that these actions were committed not because of theism is a bold face lie. So it is fair to hold the 3500 years of evil done in the name of faith against faith.

    Dan,

    No one disputes that the church of the middle ages was corrupt and dysfunctional. This was the church that was selling forgiveness of sins to help pay the bills. Yes, it did all of those nasty things you describe. Wasn't it the reformer Martin Luther that called the Pope "The Antichrist"? Martin Luther would probably agree with your assesment of the church of his day.

    It's just dishonest to assert that Christianity equals the church of the middle ages. Yes, the period between Constantine and the Reformation was a very dark and horrible time in the history of Christianity. That's why I personally agree with keeping secular government out of the church...for the sake of the church. As soon as the church got into the inherently evil and bloody business of politics, government, and warfare, it pretty much imploded.

  3. freak80


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    13   1:06pm Fri 13 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    thunderlips11 says

    Do you think that was caused by the Atheism or the belief in the dictatorship of the proletariat and the fact that the Bolsheviks believed they needed organization to implement it?

    I don't know the details about the Bolsheviks, so I cannot comment. My point was simply this: the lust for power exists in both the religious and non-religious.

  4. thunderlips11


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    14   2:06pm Fri 13 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    wthrfrk80 says

    I don't know the details about the Bolsheviks, so I cannot comment. My point was simply this: the lust for power exists in both the religious and non-religious.

    I agree, atheism doesn't prevent hierarchies. But atheism itself does not engender hierarchy, because it isn't a belief system.

  5. Bap33


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    15   3:25pm Fri 13 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    thunderlips11 says

    But atheism itself does not engender hierarchy, because it isn't a belief system.

    you seldom are wrong, but I think you are wrong on that one. Atheism is absolutly a system of belief in something, even if the "something" is that nothing caused everything to happen from nothing forever.

    All of the actions Dan shared have been committed by humans that did not know or believe in any God or any type. So, the prmise that says a belief in God makes those things happen is not supported.

    In the history of man, the successfull groups had a moralistic society that fostered the required envirnoment for most of the advancements of man. They had a belief system based on other-than-man.

    God is absolutly the power and substance behind the universe - all power, good and bad, comes from God. All substance, positive and negative, comes from God. All expansion and contraction, light and dark, ect ect. Yin and Yang - God made 'em.

    RE: Dan's Pie Chart. The Arabs and the Christians believe in the same God. I'm pretty sure.

    And, one more time, the CATHOLIC CHURCH ACTIVITY is not the measure of CHRISTIANITY. It is a lie being told over and over that blurs the line between the Church of God, and the Church of Europe

  6. Dan8267


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    16   9:23pm Fri 13 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    wthrfrk80 says

    Dan8267 says

    Except that atheists don't form hierarchical power structures like theists do.

    Really? The Russian communists didn't form hierarchical power structures?

    I don't think theists are the only ones that try to wield power.

    See this posting. In fact, read the whole thread.

  7. Dan8267


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    17   9:25pm Fri 13 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Bap33 says

    All of the actions Dan shared have been committed by humans that did not know or believe in any God or any type.

    Really, the Spanish Inquisitors were atheists? Way to rewrite history.

  8. Dan8267


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    18   9:27pm Fri 13 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Bap33 says

    And, one more time, the CATHOLIC CHURCH ACTIVITY is not the measure of CHRISTIANITY.

    Of course Catholicism is just one branch of Christianity, but it is hardly the only branch that has committed atrocities as I have shown many, many times. For example, it wasn't the Catholics justifying slavery in America by quoting the bible. Those were protestants in the Bible Belt.

  9. Dan8267


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    19   9:32pm Fri 13 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    So, how many people here have kiss Hank's ass?

    The theists in this thread certainly act like the two suits in that video.

  10. Bap33


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    20   9:34pm Sat 14 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    Bap33 says



    All of the actions Dan shared have been committed by humans that did not know or believe in any God or any type.


    Really, the Spanish Inquisitors were atheists? Way to rewrite history.

    What I was trying to say is those things have been done by Godless people ALSO, not ONLY ... I see how my writing messed that up. Sorry.

  11. Bap33


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    21   9:36pm Sat 14 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    Bap33 says



    And, one more time, the CATHOLIC CHURCH ACTIVITY is not the measure of CHRISTIANITY.


    Of course Catholicism is just one branch of Christianity, but it is hardly the only branch that has committed atrocities as I have shown many, many times. For example, it wasn't the Catholics justifying slavery in America by quoting the bible. Those were protestants in the Bible Belt.

    Lets use the OccupyWallStreet movement for example. There have been lots of rapes and drugs and filth done by people why say they are part of the movement, or done at functions held by the movement. Right. Does that mean that all OWS people are rapists or druggies?

  12. Dan8267


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    22   10:40am Sun 15 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Bap33 says

    There have been lots of rapes and drugs and filth done by people why say they are part of the movement, or done at functions held by the movement. Right.

    There have been a lot of rapes at Occupy Wall Street? Um, I haven't heard about that. If there were, please post article links in the Politics forum.

    As for drugs, I take it you are referring to the arbitrary set of drugs that are illegal as opposed to the plethora of drugs that are more dangerous and legal.

    So what if there is always some guy smoking weed at a protest or a concert. About half of Americans think weed should be legal.

    A strong majority of Americans believe marijuana should be legal for medical purposes, but just over half say that pot use for recreation should be illegal, according to a new poll Friday.

    According a recent CBS News poll conducted at the end of October, a slim majority of 51 percent continues to think that marijuana use should be illegal. But support for specifically allowing doctors to prescribe marijuana for serious medical conditions - or legalized "medical" marijuana - is far stronger: 77 percent Americans think it should be allowed.

    Claiming that pot smoking is immoral is ridiculous. Claiming that the KKK, the support of slavery, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Iraq War II, and the Holocaust were immoral is quite sensible.

    As for druggies, the vast majority of Americans are druggies. They just use the drugs that have been made legal by the pharmaceutical industry as oppose to the ones made illegal by that industry. And have no doubt, it the the pharmaceutical industry, not Congress, that decided which drugs should be legal.

    And this is all coming from someone who has never smoked pot or tobacco in his life.

  13. Bap33


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    23   9:44pm Sun 15 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Dan8267 says

    There have been a lot of rapes at Occupy Wall Street? Um, I haven't heard about that. If there were, please post article links in the Politics forum.

    I did as you asked.

  14. Bap33


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    24   9:47pm Sun 15 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    And this is all coming from someone who has never smoked pot or tobacco in his life.

    I too have never done those, plus I have never been drunk. Not even once. My vice came from Adam's rib! lol

  15. Bap33


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    25   9:48pm Sun 15 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    For example, it wasn't the Catholics justifying slavery in America by quoting the bible.

    a link of something for this, please.

  16. freak80


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    26   6:35am Mon 16 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    Then I suspect that a good percentage of the Christians aren't believers.

    Dan, you and I finally agree on something! We should have a beer together to celebrate.

  17. freak80


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    27   6:45am Mon 16 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    I'm willing to bet that if you asked most "Christians" if they believed that

    1) Jesus is God
    2) Jesus will judge the world at the end of history
    3) Jesus death was a substitutionary atonement for sin

    they would probably say "no, that's wierd, I don't believe that at all..."

    A lot of "Christianity" in America is what one person has called "moralistic therapudic deism"

  18. Dan8267


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    28   8:47am Mon 16 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)  

    Bap33 says

    Dan8267 says

    For example, it wasn't the Catholics justifying slavery in America by quoting the bible.

    a link of something for this, please.

    You want a link that the Southern states were full of protestants not Catholics?

    Read this reply again and then do a Google search on

    - Jefferson Davis
    - Rev. Alexander Campbell
    - Rev. R. Furman

  19. Dan8267


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    29   9:23am Mon 16 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    Dan8267 says

    There have been a lot of rapes at Occupy Wall Street? Um, I haven't heard about that. If there were, please post article links in the Politics forum.

    I did as you asked.

    I'd recommend renaming that thread to "Sexual Assaults Reported in 'Occupy' Camps" so that more people will read it and discuss the issue. I've always wondered how many young men attend protests simply to try to get sex.

  20. P N Dr Lo R


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    30   11:51am Mon 16 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    wthrfrk80 says

    I'm willing to bet that if you asked most "Christians" if they believed that
    1) Jesus is God
    2) Jesus will judge the world at the end of history
    3) Jesus death was a substitutionary atonement for sin
    they would probably say "no, that's wierd, I don't believe that at all..."

    Well then I don't fall into the category of "most Christians" because those are indeed the things I believe! And I'd also say that the majority of other Christians I know believe them as well.

  21. freak80


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    31   2:01pm Mon 16 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    P N Dr Lo R says

    Well then I don't fall into the category of "most Christians" because those are indeed the things I believe! And I'd also say that the majority of other Christians I know believe them as well.

    I hope you're right! I just haven't had much luck finding Christians that still believe in anything that resembles historic Christianity. Maybe I just spend too much time on the internet...

  22. Bap33


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    32   9:11pm Mon 16 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    Bap33 says



    Dan8267 says



    For example, it wasn't the Catholics justifying slavery in America by quoting the bible.


    a link of something for this, please.


    You want a link that the Southern states were full of protestants not Catholics?


    Read this reply again and then do a Google search on


    - Jefferson Davis
    - Rev. Alexander Campbell
    - Rev. R. Furman

    I mis-read your post to say " it WAS Catholics that quoted the Bible ....". My badness on that one. Your post is correct.

  23. Bap33


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    33   9:14pm Mon 16 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    Bap33 says



    Dan8267 says



    There have been a lot of rapes at Occupy Wall Street? Um, I haven't heard about that. If there were, please post article links in the Politics forum.


    I did as you asked.


    I'd recommend renaming that thread to "Sexual Assaults Reported in 'Occupy' Camps" so that more people will read it and discuss the issue. I've always wondered how many young men attend protests simply to try to get sex.

    I have said many times that we (males) do what we do for sex. That's what drives us. And, that may be just how it is supposed to be.

  24. Dan8267


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    34   9:30pm Mon 16 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    I do think it's a far cry to go from a couple of sleazeballs taking advantage of Occupy Wall Street to making the claim that the Occupy Wall Street movement is full of rapists. I don't see how the crimes committed by a few individual invalidate the entire Occupy Wall Street movement especially since the crimes have nothing to do with the movement or the vast majority of its people.

    Now, that doesn't mean I think the OWS movement is any good, but it's certainly not bad for what you are implying.

  25. Bap33


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    35   10:02pm Mon 16 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    oh contre', I was not suggesting anything, I used the issue to support my point that was given in light of your wink/nod about Catholic Church behavior (the OWS sleaze) and the Christian Church of God (the OWS movement). That is where the mention came from. It's up there a little ways.

  26. Bap33


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    36   10:04pm Mon 16 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    oh contre', I was not suggesting anything, I used the issue to support my point that was given in light of your wink/nod about Catholic Church behavior (the OWS sleaze) and the Christian Church of God (the OWS movement). That is where the mention came from. It's up there a little ways.

    ""I don't see how the crimes committed by a few individual invalidate the entire (movement)"" - Dan

  27. Dan8267


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    37   5:40pm Tue 17 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Ok, so we agree that a few individuals do not invalidate a movement. However, the atrocities committed by the Christian church and later by its splinter churches over the past 2000 years is not a few bad apples. You can't get more systematic than 20 centuries of murder, rape, theft, and torture.

    There's a big difference between a few scumbags infiltrating OWS for a lay and a church, well-armed with a military, laying waste to multiple continents.

  28. marcus


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    38   6:49pm Tue 17 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    I honestly don't know whether the good done by Christianity (including Catholicism) is greater than the harm, but I do know what to make of an analysis that is based entirely on looking only at the good or only at the bad.

    A couple of quick internet sources on the good the Catholic church has done. My guess is that most of these can be verified with time. Many are well known.

    http://indigosociety.com/showthread.php?44038-The-good-the-Catholic-Church-has-done

    http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091230162823AAThWXD

    I fully expect criticism of these lame sources - especially the yahoo one, but hey it comes from an individual, you can easily challenge any of the positives he or she cites. I don't have time.

  29. marcus


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    39   6:51pm Tue 17 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    You can't get more systematic than 20 centuries of murder, rape, theft, and torture.

    What a mindless ingrate.

  30. Dan8267


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    40   8:02pm Tue 17 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Geeze, I must have fucked Marcus's mom or something because he's seriously entering psycho stalker territory.

    Hey Marcus, whatever I did to fuck up your life, I'd like to say I'm sorry. Unfortunately, I'm not because you seem like a dick. Plus, it's hard to apologize when you don't know what the hell you did to upset someone.

    But anyway, if you're so offended by something someone on the Internet said that you can't ever let it go, that's kind of pathetic. Go outside and make some friends. Your life won't seem so empty, and you won't feel the need to constantly attack strangers on the Internet.

  31. marcus


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    41   8:38pm Tue 17 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Dan8267 says

    Go outside and make some friends. Your life won't seem so empty, and you won't feel the need to constantly attack strangers on the Internet.

    Lol. I was working today. I haven't and wouldn't read even 1/10th of the 1000s of words you wrote today on Patnet, but I did notice this in a random one of your 25 posts and 3 new threads today.

    Dan8267 says

    Marcus makes conjectures that have no evidence to support them. I make statements that are well supported and almost always reference them. If I'm explaining an entire subject matter, I don't reference every single sentence. But if I say anything that is contested, even by a fool like Marcus, I back it up with support. That's the difference.

    This was in a conversation with someone else, that was unrelated to me, or anything I said. And you want to suggest that I'm stalking you ? I need to get a life?

    My comment above is about what you said. And I guess it is related to another question I asked you which is, can you think of any good done by Christianity ? I know you won't answer it, but if anything, considering I asked you that, I would say you are still trolling.

    Also, the only reason you aren't on ignore again yet, is that I'm waiting to see if you are man enough to back up your claim of "bullshit" yesterday and take me up on a bet. Although I know you won't for a variety of reasons.

    Dan8267 says

    Geeze, I must have fucked Marcus's mom or something because he's seriously entering psycho stalker territory.

    Classy.

    (edit: btw regarding my "conjectures" again wtf ? My argument has centered around one and only one thing, and that is your lack of logic. You're the moron who confuses your personal belief with "proving the truth" maybe you can comprehend how my being a Math guy that bothers me. Look at Bellinham Bill/Bob/Troy or Iwog, they do what you claim you do, they back up their sound reasoning, but they understand how to write. It's implied that it is your belief, you can state it as if it is fact, and you do your best to back it up. But when you say you have "proven the truth," when have done nothing close to that ? That borders on mental illness, or possibly just immaturity and lack of writing experience. )

  32. Bap33


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    42   10:25pm Tue 17 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    I don't think I'd be mad if you boinked my mom. Thats her deal, not mine.

  33. marcus


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    43   6:50am Thu 19 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    marcus says

    A couple of quick internet sources on the good the Catholic church has done. My guess is that most of these can be verified with time. Many are well known.

    http://indigosociety.com/showthread.php?44038-The-good-the-Catholic-Church-has-done

    http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091230162823AAThWXD

    And they didn't even mention beer. To this day, some of the very best beers in the world are made by trappist monks.

    (edit: if people are bothered by that indigo forum, the same text with excerpts including quotes from various historians here - http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0101.html )

  34. freak80


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    44   7:20am Thu 19 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    But anyway, if you're so offended by something someone on the Internet said that you can't ever let it go, that's kind of pathetic. Go outside and make some friends. Your life won't seem so empty, and you won't feel the need to constantly attack strangers on the Internet.

    Wow, that's the pot calling the kettle black...

  35. freak80


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    45   7:41am Thu 19 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Dan8267 says

    Ok, so we agree that a few individuals do not invalidate a movement. However, the atrocities committed by the Christian church and later by its splinter churches over the past 2000 years is not a few bad apples. You can't get more systematic than 20 centuries of murder, rape, theft, and torture.
    There's a big difference between a few scumbags infiltrating OWS for a lay and a church, well-armed with a military, laying waste to multiple continents.

    Dan, you are attempting to discredit Christianity by pointing out the actions of governments that used Christianity as a justification for their political shenanigans.

    Did you know that Jesus said we should "love our enemies"? Did you know that he claimed that hatred is equal to murder? Jesus said to go and "make desciples of all nations" not "go and kill anyone who isn't already a Christian or convert them at the point of a sword."

    Lenin and Stalin used Marx as a justification for their (very bloody) ideology and expansionism. Their crimes are no less significant than the ones commited by governments that twisted Christianity to fit a pre-existing political agenda (whether it's Rome, Spain, the US war with Iraq, etc). That doesn't mean that Marxism is inherently evil. It's interesting how you single out Christianity for constant flogging, but you don't do the same for Marxism.

    Any ideology or belief system can try to propagate itself with violence, not just a twisted version of Christianity used to justify a pre-existing lust for power and conquest that all governments seems to have.

  36. Dan8267


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    46   1:02pm Thu 19 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    wthrfrk80 says

    Did you know that Jesus said we should "love our enemies"?

    Yes, he did allegedly say that. However, that does not make him a god. Not does it mean that he rose from the dead.

    And I've always said, if you stripped away all the theism crap and mysticism, you'd have a philosophy not a religion and that would be much better.

    However, as shown in the Ron Paul video on today's links, the so-called Christians boo'ed Jesus's philosophy. Ron Paul mentioned the golden rule and all the faithful started booing. 'Nuff said. At best, the Christian fundamentalists are hypocrites that would rape and murder Jesus if he actually did return.

  37. freak80


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    47   1:05pm Thu 19 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    However, as shown in the Ron Paul video on today's links, the so-called Christians boo'ed Jesus's philosophy. Ron Paul mentioned the golden rule and all the faithful started booing. 'Nuff said. At best, the Christian fundamentalists are hypocrites that would rape and murder Jesus if he actually did return.

    How do you know the audience was made up of Christians?

    I don't think they would rape him...how do you get that idea?

  38. freak80


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    48   1:14pm Thu 19 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan,

    At this point your dislike of Christianity is well stated. I get it.

    But how do I know your ideology will be any better? First, you seem very mean spirited. I'm not sure I'd trust you in a position of power. No, I wouldn't trust pentacostals like Bachmann or Palin either. I get that.

    Ultimately there's no real basis for morality in your system. It's all just about power...survival of the fittest...right? Evolution is just the law of the jungle. We see strong animals devouring weak animals. Why should we say that strong humans shouldn't exploit weak humans?

    Does the world suck? Yes, I would agree. I just don't see how your new system will be any better than the one we have now, with corrupt religions and governments. So far every utopian scheme, religous or otherwise, has failed.

    Anybody can complain. I want to see this wonderful new system you are proposing since you are so much smarter than the rest of us.

  39. freak80


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    49   1:20pm Thu 19 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Another thing Dan: where do you get this crazy idea of "rights"? If humans are just another animal, how is it that we have "rights" any more than fish have "rights"?

    The thing is, your whole philosophy has been tried before. None of your ideas are new. I can't prove you are wrong. But this whole materialist/naturalist worldview has already been tried. Friedrich Nietzsche took these ideas and ran with them. The rest, as they say, is history.

  40. Dan8267


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    50   7:19pm Thu 19 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    wthrfrk80 says

    At this point your dislike of Christianity is well stated. I get it.

    I dislike all religions because they have enslaved man, torture and killed innocents, and held back social justice and scientific advancement for thousands of years. My disdain for religion has been well earned by the eons of bloodshed committed by the faithful.

    wthrfrk80 says

    First, you seem very mean spirited.

    I don't buy into your religion and I make logical arguments why your god is not real. Since you cannot refute my logical arguments, I must be mean spirited. After all, rational, objective conversation is antithetical to fear-based faith mongering.

    Mean things I did: disprove your god.

    Mean things the faithful did: genocide, Spanish Inquisition, burning people at the stake, torture, rape, the Judas Cradle, the Iron Maiden, well, I could go on and on for hours, but I don't want to be mean.

    wthrfrk80 says

    I'm not sure I'd trust you in a position of power.

    Good thing that we atheist don't seek power. Nor would I gain any power if all the people in the world became atheists. Now churches and high priests do gain a lot of power when people follow religion, and look what they do with it. But atheism doesn't consolidate power, atheism disperses power so that cannot be abused.

    And you shouldn't trust anyone with power. Trust is a vice. Trust should never be used in conjunction with power. Instead, trust should be replaced with transparency.

    Society should be changed so that there are no positions of power.

    wthrfrk80 says

    Ultimately there's no real basis for morality in your system. It's all just about power...survival of the fittest...right?

    No. I have not presented any system, therefore you cannot comment on my system. All I have done was refute falsehoods presented by others and defended well-known facts like man is descendant from apes, monkeys, etc.

    Objecting to evolution as a fact because you are afraid that its truth destroys the possibility of morality and justifies murder and other selfish behavior is just plain childish. Simple life became the complex life we know today, including humans, by the process of evolution. That does not mean our legal system is based on The Theory of Evolution, not does it imply that our legal system should be. Try arguing in front of a judge that murdering someone was in your best self-interest and therefore you shouldn't go to jail.

    The origins and nature of morality is another story, which I haven't told yet. First unlearn the false things you've learned from your church. Then we can have an adult conversation about the nature and benefits of morality. That conversation is 10,000 years overdue.

    wthrfrk80 says

    just don't see how your new system will be any better than the one we have now, with corrupt religions and governments. So far every utopian scheme, religous or otherwise, has failed.

    I have yet to propose any system of government on this site, nonetheless some alleged utopia. The closest to that I have done is claiming that replacing religion and other superstitions with rational though and scientific enlightenment would make the world more stable and peaceful, and would increase the chances that mankind doesn't destroy itself.

    wthrfrk80 says

    If humans are just another animal, how is it that we have "rights" any more than fish have "rights"?

    Why would one believe that people have rights only because they are some alleged god's favorite creation? What happens when, as it often does, the priest says that god has given some people the right to slaughter others?

    Rights exist because we, as civilize people, choose to make them exist and to enforce the protection of those rights. Any society that fails to protect rights loses them. In fact this very thing is happening in our society right now.

    wthrfrk80 says

    The thing is, your whole philosophy has been tried before.

    What philosophy? And where was it tried?

    Believe me, I have ideas you have never imaged. And until I discuss them, you wouldn't be able to image what they are.

    wthrfrk80 says

    Friedrich Nietzsche took these ideas and ran with them.

    My philosophies are nothing like Nietzsche. You are clearly inserting ideas you fear into the void of your knowledge of what I believe. This is silly.

    Since you're so insistent on figuring out what's going on in my mind before I reveal it, consider this. I took a test which measured how closely my philosophies match historical philosophers. The test rated my agreement with various philosophers on a scale of 0% (total disagreement) to 100% (total agreement). These are my results.

    1. Immanuel Kant (100%)
    2. Jean-Paul Sartre (99%)
    3. John Stuart Mill (84%)
    4. Ayn Rand (73%)
    5. Jeremy Bentham (71%)
    6. Prescriptivism (64%)
    7. Spinoza (60%)
    8. Stoics (58%)
    9. Epicureans (49%)
    10. Aquinas (46%)
    11. David Hume (38%)
    12. Nietzsche (38%)
    13. Aristotle (37%)
    14. Plato (34%)
    15. Ockham (32%)
    16. St. Augustine (29%)
    17. Thomas Hobbes (25%)
    18. Nel Noddings (24%)
    19. Cynics (5%)

    Notice how low Nietzsche scored.

    Interestingly, I agree almost entirely with Immanuel Kant and Jean-Paul Sartre even though I have yet to read their works. I simply have reached the same conclusions as them, and probably for the same reason.

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