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A few good men. Senators who voted against NDAA (or abstained)

By Dan8267   Follow   Wed, 4 Jan 2012, 6:26pm   4,499 views   52 comments
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NAYs ---13

Cardin (D-MD)
Coburn (R-OK)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
Durbin (D-IL)
Franken (D-MN)
Harkin (D-IA)
Lee (R-UT)
Merkley (D-OR)
Paul (R-KY)
Risch (R-ID)
Sanders (I-VT)
Wyden (D-OR)

Not Voting - 1
Moran (R-KS)

That's 6 Republicans, 6 Democrats, and 1 independent voting in favor of Western Civilization. 1 Republican did not vote. The other 93 senators have no respect for your life, liberty, or rights.

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1. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

   1   3:49am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   It should now be evident that the Constitution is very very important and our rights and freedom should be the highest priority. If this is truly the case, is it possible to set aside our differences and support Ron Paul? I agree that he may not be the perfect candidate as we all are and you may disagree with him on other issues but the stakes are too high now. I hope we're not too late. The Last Nail - Floor Speech May 25 2011

2. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

   2   3:54am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Ron Paul never fails to warn us in advance. When are we going to listen?

3. Dan8267 Follow Befriend (17) 785 threads 7,969 comments Boca Raton, FL Premium

   3   7:25am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Just to clarify for the audience. Ron Paul is not a senator. The Paul (R, KY) listed above is not Ron Paul. Ron Paul is a representative for the state of Texas. Strangely, Ron Paul did not vote on the NDAA either way when the bill went to the floor of the House of Representatives even though he has come out against it. I'm not sure why Paul didn't cast a vote at all instead of voting against it. Anybody know?

4. Vicente Follow Befriend (8) 209 threads 4,515 comments Davis, CA

   4   8:26am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Dan8267 says Strangely, Ron Paul did not vote on the NDAA either way when the bill went to the floor of the House of Representatives even though he has come out against it. "I was too busy slinging mud and posturing like a loon to protect the Constitution." Hahahahah! Ron Paul voted for the AUMF after 9/11, which is the bill NDAA expands on. Sanders BTW voted against that. Ron Paul introduced HR3076 which would have enabled letters of marque & reprisal. Ron Paul is only Captain Liberty in very specific ways that fit with his ultra-right Ayn Rand worship.

5. Dan8267 Follow Befriend (17) 785 threads 7,969 comments Boca Raton, FL Premium

   5   10:47am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Vicente says Ron Paul is only Captain Liberty in very specific ways that fit with his ultra-right Ayn Rand worship. Still, compared to the other numb-nuts in Congress, Ron Paul is a champion of liberty. Could we do better? Sure, but not using any of the existing politicians. I'd certainly trade Ron Paul in for a better champion of civil rights. Just show me one.

6. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

   6   10:56am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Dan8267 says Ron Paul is a champion of liberty. No wonder even the ACLU gave Ron Paul higher marks than Obama. And to those spreading lies that Ron Paul didn't vote for HR 1540, here's the house record: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2011/roll375.xml#N

7. Patrick Follow Befriend (54) 5,240 threads 6,173 comments 46 male Menlo Park, CA Premium

   7   10:59am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   I agree. Ron Paul does not ever in any way question the right of the 1% to take more and more from the 99% via non-productive ownership of everything, forever. In fact, he would try to reverse what little brakes we have on runaway consolidation of wealth, cutting Social Security and Medicare to zero so that the poor get much poorer at the same time as the rich are getting much richer at the expense of everyone else. BUT he is clearly against imprisonment of US citizens forever without trial (NDAA) and extra-judicial censorship of the internet without appeal (SOPA). Is there any other candidate that would respect our civil rights? Without civil rights, we can never fix anything else.

8. uomo_senza_nome Follow Befriend (13) 787 threads 1,542 comments

   8   11:07am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Patrick says Ron Paul does not ever in any way question the right of the 1% to take more and more from the 99% via non-productive ownership of everything, forever. I think that's because he's stuck in the ideology of free market capitalism when the reality is that such a system is a total Randian myth. Can never exist in real life. Patrick says cutting Social Security and Medicare to zero so the the poor get much poorer at the same time as the rich are getting much richer at the expense of everyone else. Of course. Which is why Libertarians are more dangerous. The mainstream Republicans are idiots and it is there for all to see. Libertarian idiocy is subtle, but once you analyze with facts -- it is much more clear that what they seek would be a second Great Depression and allowing the markets to self-regulate and correct themselves, pushing us back to the Gilded Age. While there are aspects about Ron Paul to be admired, there are also issues that he doesn't address -- which is quite glaring. I raised them here: http://patrick.net/forum/?p=1206296

9. HousingWatcher Follow Befriend 285 threads 1,760 comments

   9   11:09am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Does Ron Paul really respect our civil rights? He is against the Civil Rights Act. And I would be willing to bet that he is against every law that bans discrimination based on race, religion, gender, age, etc. So under Ron Paul you will only get to enjoy your civil rights if you are a white male.

10. uomo_senza_nome Follow Befriend (13) 787 threads 1,542 comments

    10   11:15am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   HousingWatcher says He is against the Civil Rights Act. And I would be willing to bet that he is against every law that bans discrimination based on race, religion, gender, age, etc. So under Ron Paul you will only get to enjoy your civil rights if you are a white male. While I am inclined to think that is not the man's intent, the end result would be what HousingWatcher says here. While I am also inclined to think that Ron Paul never wrote the newsletters, the fact that somebody working under him thought it was a political strategy to pander racism is evident. Moreover the ghostwriter who wrote it, wrote it as Dr. Paul. Therefore, his explanations are quite lame; it feels like he wants to disavow them because there's no political majority for racism. Libertarianism with no consideration for practicality is insane ideology.

11. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    11   11:20am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Patrick says BUT he is clearly against imprisonment of US citizens forever without trial (NDAA) and extra-judicial censorship of the internet without appeal (SOPA). Is any other candidate that would respect our civil rights? Without civil rights, we can never fix anything else. The others claim and brag that they can create jobs, uplift the lives of the poor, etc., etc. Ron Paul is a physician who saved lives. He served in the military as a flight surgeon. Ron Paul supports a true free market and a sound monetary system and opposes debt that Patrick famously say equates to slavery. Politicians always claim they are passing laws to create jobs and make healthcare and housing affordable. You are a fool if you still believe it. Affordability cannot be achieved by market manipulation. In fact, it is the opposite. Ron Paul does allow people and businesses to take risks and get rewarded if they succeed but also don't get bailed out if they fail. The problem is not the market. It is the few who controls it and Ron Paul want to stop the bailouts of these few. Ron Paul is a non-interventionist who doesn't want to rig the economy at the guise of making your life better. He simply wants to give you freedom. Ron Paul's policy is a policy of ending the failed war on drugs. Ron Paul's policy is a policy of peace and respect for the Constitution. Ron Paul opposes SOPA and the NDAA. Ron Paul has the voting record and never flip flops whether you like his ideas or not. Ron Paul is the only candidate who opposes the Fed and has been saying the same message for decades. Ron Paul is the champion of liberty. Even the ACLU gives him higher marks than Obama. Ron Paul warned us many times way in advance about this economic mess and continues to do so while others lie that he caused it. Ron Paul has warned us in advance that our freedoms will be slowly taken away. Consistency, honesty, integrity and intelligence. Isn't this want we want? Isn't this the recipe for a real and meaningful change? Now let me hear why I should vote for the others.

12. uomo_senza_nome Follow Befriend (13) 787 threads 1,542 comments

    12   11:30am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Anonymousone says Ron Paul supports a true free market and a sound monetary system and opposes debt that Patrick famously say equates to slavery. True free market = myth (can never exist in real life -- Jon Stewart called it a pipedream in his interview with Ron Paul) sound monetary system = sure I'll go with that. But this can be done in many ways and I would prefer the least painful way for most Americans. Ron Paul has some outline on how he would do this (competing currencies), but stabilizing the dollar(advocated by his spending cuts) will be severely hurting the economy and could push us into another depression. He is with the savers, but doesn't realize that he will kill the debtors in the process. All debt is not slavery. There's something called marginal productivity of debt. Without a credit system, nobody can plan for their future. Anonymousone says Politicians always claim they are passing laws to create jobs and make healthcare and housing affordable. You are a fool if you still believe it. Affordability cannot be achieved by market manipulation. In fact, it is the opposite. Agreed. Anonymousone says The problem is not the market. It is the few who controls it and Ron Paul want to stop the bailouts of these few. The problem is that these few are too powerful that no matter who's in power, they always get what they want. Anonymousone says Consistency, honesty, integrity and intelligence. Isn't this want we want? Isn't this the recipe for a real and meaningful change? Yes, but we want policies grounded in REALITY. Where is that from Ron Paul? I've already addressed them here: http://patrick.net/forum/?p=1206296 Anonymousone says Now let me hear why I should vote for the others.

13. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    13   11:33am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Thanks, uomo. So who should we vote? And why?

14. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    14   11:34am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   uomo_senza_nome says Yes, but we want policies grounded in REALITY. Where is that from Ron Paul? So reality to you is the debt-financed fantasy where the losers and corrupt are rewarded and the savers are punished?

15. uomo_senza_nome Follow Befriend (13) 787 threads 1,542 comments

    15   11:38am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Anonymousone says So who should we vote? I am asking - Why vote? A sane person would vote if they knew they have their representation in the Government (republic is the representation of the public). Tell me honestly - do we have a Government that represents the public today? Can we ever have it if there is no campaign finance and lobbying reform? Therefore, I'd heed George Carlin's advice: 'F--k 'em, I don't vote'.

16. uomo_senza_nome Follow Befriend (13) 787 threads 1,542 comments

    16   11:39am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Anonymousone says So reality to you is the debt-financed fantasy where the losers and corrupt are rewarded and the savers are punished? No, if you have read my posts for quite some time, you'd have realized by now that I vehemently oppose today's system. But the way to reform it is not through dogmatism, it is through a practical approach of recognizing the problem. I don't have faith that this can happen in today's politics.

17. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    17   11:40am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   uomo_senza_nome says I am asking - Why vote? I understand your point. It would be nice to hear the reasons why I should vote for the other candidates but many on this site seem to focus on bashing Ron Paul but never say who should we support.

18. Patrick Follow Befriend (54) 5,240 threads 6,173 comments 46 male Menlo Park, CA Premium

    18   11:41am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Anonymousone says Ron Paul is a non-interventionist who doesn't want to rig the economy at the guise of making your life better. He simply wants to give you freedom. Unfortunately, he does not distinguish beween income from productive work, and income from siphoning off the wealth of those who actually do productive work (via land rents, interest, capital gains, dividends, and inheritance). Anonymousone says And to those spreading lies that Ron Paul didn't vote for HR 1540, here's the house record: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2011/roll375.xml#N Thanks for that! I was confusing the Senate and House votes earlier. Now I see that stripping our civil rights is indeed mostly a Republican idea, but the Democrats were still in favor of such treason by a slight majority. Votes for bill including permenent imprisonment without trial, yes no -> %yes: Republican 227 6 -> 97.4% against the bill of rights Democratic 95 90 -> 51.4% against the bill of rights So I really have to give Ron Paul credit for voting against his own party on the NDAA, and on SOPA. Anyway, I think it's marvelously entertaining watching the mainstream the Republican establishment convulse in horror at the thought of Ron Paul getting the nomination. That alone makes it worth registering as a Republican and voting to nominate him.

19. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    19   11:43am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   It will be nice to discuss something like this: http://www.salon.com/2011/12/31/progressives_and_the_ron_paul_fallacies/singleton/

20. uomo_senza_nome Follow Befriend (13) 787 threads 1,542 comments

    20   11:44am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Anonymousone says It would be nice to hear the reasons why I should vote for the other candidates but many on this site seem to focus on bashing Ron Paul but never say who should we support. I can't give you any reasons to support anyone because IT DOESN'T MATTER what you do, when you can't have a say in calling the shots. Since you are a vehement supporter of Ron Paul (as evidenced by your numerous threads), you should recognize that there are practical issues that he doesn't address as well.

21. uomo_senza_nome Follow Befriend (13) 787 threads 1,542 comments

    21   11:45am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Anonymousone says It will be nice to discuss something like this: http://www.salon.com/2011/12/31/progressives_and_the_ron_paul_fallacies/singleton/ I posted this link in the Link Submissions section, if you did not realize it already.

22. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    22   11:46am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Patrick says Anyway, I think it's marvelously entertaining watching the mainstream the Republican establishment convulse in horror at the thought of Ron Paul getting the nomination. That alone makes it worth registering as a Republican and voting to nominate him. +1

23. uomo_senza_nome Follow Befriend (13) 787 threads 1,542 comments

    23   11:46am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Patrick says Anyway, I think it's marvelously entertaining watching the mainstream the Republican establishment convulse in horror at the thought of Ron Paul getting the nomination. That alone makes it worth registering as a Republican and voting to nominate him. Agreed. It is pretty f-ing unbelievable how unprincipled the mainstream Republicans are.

24. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    24   11:49am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   uomo_senza_nome says Since you are a vehement supporter of Ron Paul (as evidenced by your numerous threads), you should recognize that there are practical issues that he doesn't address as well. Like I said many times, Ron Paul may not be the perfect candidate and we may disagree with him on other issues. Isn't that reality? Is there a perfect candidate?

25. Patrick Follow Befriend (54) 5,240 threads 6,173 comments 46 male Menlo Park, CA Premium

    25   11:50am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   uomo_senza_nome says All debt is not slavery. There's something called marginal productivity of debt. True, I'm talking about debt for consumption, especially mortgage debt. Debt for investing in productive capacity can potentially be very worthwhile. Say to purchase capital equipment that you know you can use profitably, where the profit is greater than the interest payment. That kind of debt is fine, IMHO. Even mortgage debt is possibly OK if the borrower pays less overall than he would renting the same place. I'm just begging people to actually do that calculation, and demanding that the government stop facilitating the self-entrapment of so many millions of people. Student loans have become a lot like housing. The debt can be worthwhile if the future income gains more than cover the interest. But student loan debt subsidies got into a vicious circle, where the increased financing just led to increased tuition, and blew right past any semblance of financial reason.

26. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    26   11:52am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   uomo_senza_nome says I posted this link in the Link Submissions section, if you did not realize it already. Yes. I also posted it in the politics section. Here's another good one: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/iowa-the-meaningless-sideshow-begins-20120103

27. thunderlips11 Follow Befriend (13) 61 threads 2,708 comments Premium

    27   11:52am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   I say don't vote. "Well, if you don't choose between Twiddledum and Tweedledummer, you're helping bad things happen." How so? By forcing myself to choose between two shitty options, aren't I giving my consent to Bullshit? It's not like I'll be getting something I really care about while making concessions on other things. My three things are: Reciprocal Trade, Civil Liberties, and the end of the Pax Americana. BOTH major parties' candidates are antithetical to all of my main concerns, as expressed by deed, whatever comes out of their mouths. Politicians are better judged by the former rather than the latter. I reject the Sixth Party System and the Culture War and won't be stampeded to vote over Wedge Issues. My issues are mostly guns and butter shit. The issue isn't Tradition vs. Tolerance, it's Neofeudalism. Neofeudalism with or without Gay Marriage is still neofeudalism. Vote no one.

28. uomo_senza_nome Follow Befriend (13) 787 threads 1,542 comments

    28   11:56am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Anonymousone says Like I said many times, Ron Paul may not be the perfect candidate and we may disagree with him on other issues. Isn't that reality? Is there a perfect candidate? The issues that one can disagree might be sound enough to not vote for Ron Paul at all. That's what I'm trying to say.

29. uomo_senza_nome Follow Befriend (13) 787 threads 1,542 comments

    29   11:57am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Patrick says Student loans have become a lot like housing. The debt can be worthwhile if the future income gains more than cover the interest. But student loan debt subsidies got into a vicious circle, where the increased financing just led to increased tuition, and blew right past any semblance of financial reason. Agree. Student Loans is a 1-trillion+ growing bubble that will blow up sometime in the future.

30. uomo_senza_nome Follow Befriend (13) 787 threads 1,542 comments

    30   11:58am Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   thunderlips11 says How so? By forcing myself to choose between two shitty options, aren't I giving my consent to Bullshit? It's not like I'll be getting something I really care about while making concessions on other things. Spot on.

31. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    31   12:01pm Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   uomo_senza_nome says thunderlips11 says How so? By forcing myself to choose between two shitty options, aren't I giving my consent to Bullshit? It's not like I'll be getting something I really care about while making concessions on other things. Spot on. If you truly believe that, what are you doing to convince the people not to vote? If there's any, what are the chances that you'll succeed? Is it based on reality?

32. uomo_senza_nome Follow Befriend (13) 787 threads 1,542 comments

    32   12:05pm Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Anonymousone says If you truly believe that, what are you doing to convince the people not to vote? LOL. I don't have the urge to convince anyone. Since you asked, I answered. But everyone has the right to make a choice. If people want to live in an illusion that they have a freedom of choice when it comes to politics, that is something they choose to do. Anonymousone says If there's any, what are the chances that you'll succeed? Is it based on reality? Since there's no effort involved, there's no expectation of success. The reasoning as to why one shouldn't vote is based in reality. Whether they choose to accept the reality or not is for them to make.

33. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    33   12:07pm Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   uomo_senza_nome says LOL. I don't have the urge to convince anyone. Since you asked, I answered. But everyone has the right to make a choice. Good counter. Thanks. I guess reality is or can be subjective. Let me ask again those who plan to vote, who should we support and why?

34. Dan8267 Follow Befriend (17) 785 threads 7,969 comments Boca Raton, FL Premium

    34   12:11pm Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Patrick says I agree. Ron Paul does not ever in any way question the right of the 1% to take more and more from the 99% via non-productive ownership of everything, forever. True. Ron Paul is the quintessence of the Libertarian Party. He wants to get as close to anarchy -- and I mean the absence of government, not chaos and violence -- as physically possible. This, of course, allows the powerful to become more powerful and the rich to become more rich. That is a fundamental flaw in the Libertarian philosophy. However, I don't see how Ron Paul as president could do much to further inequality. The social programs and federal agencies he wants to cut, he won't be able to. That's up to Congress. At worst, he would veto new legislation relating to social safety net programs. However, given the greater threat of unrestricted government power and no accountability, this doesn't even come close to being important. Patrick says cutting Social Security and Medicare to zero Those are precisely the programs that no president could cut even if he wanted to. Even if Ron Paul had the support of Congress, he couldn't cut those programs. And Congress sure isn't going to support cutting programs that are highly popular to the voters. Yes, it's valid to argue that because of his Libertarian views, Ron Paul would be an ineffective president, like Jimmy Carter was. But given the recent passage of the NDAA, Paul's the only chance we have to restrict executive power short of a violent revolution. Patrick says BUT he is clearly against imprisonment of US citizens forever without trial (NDAA) and extra-judicial censorship of the internet without appeal (SOPA). Is there any other candidate that would respect our civil rights? Without civil rights, we can never fix anything else. Yep, and that's what makes Ron Paul worth electing even with his crazy ideas. uomo_senza_nome says I think that's because he's stuck in the ideology of free market capitalism when the reality is that such a system is a total Randian myth. Can never exist in real life. Close, but I don't think it's so much a about free-market religion with Libertarians. I think it's because they simply refuse to acknowledge two important things: the concept of public property and the field of game theory. If you took the core Libertarian philosophy and added these two concepts, it would be great. Granted, game theory is incompatible with the religion of free-markets. Anonymousone says Ron Paul is the champion of liberty. Even the ACLU gives him higher marks than Obama. Why would Obama get good marks on civil rights. He's awful. Anonymousone says Now let me hear why I should vote for the others. And that's what it really comes down to. I don't expect Ron Paul to be a great president, but given the utter destruction of rights over the past decade, he's the only candidate that's a defense against the greatest threat to America ever: our own government. uomo_senza_nome says Without a credit system, nobody can plan for their future. I wouldn't go that far. Credit, when used properly, makes planning for the future much easier, but it would still be possible with just savings as long as savings could hold their value. Anonymousone says Thank,s Uomo. So who should we vote? And why? Ron Paul is my first choice, but if it comes down to between Romney and Obama, I'll go Romney. And that's not something I'd thought I'd say a month ago, but the passage of the NDAA has convinced me that Obama is even more evil than Bush -- something else I thought I'd never say. I suppose the one silver lining is that if the NDAA causes Obama to lose the election, and clearly so, it might just send a message to all the politicians in Washington. Anonymousone says uomo_senza_nome says Yes, but we want policies grounded in REALITY. Where is that from Ron Paul? So reality to you is the debt-financed fantasy? No, uomo_senza_nome, like me, is an Austrian Economics advocate. Ron Paul is as well. What uomo_senza_nome means is that Ron Paul is an idealist who sticks to black-and-white principles including an unquestioning faith in unregulated markets and the invisible hand. However, any system can be gamed, so there must be ways to prevent the few from taking advantage of the many by rigging the system and acting like parasites. Ron Paul believes incorrectly that if you stick by the simple principles of free markets and no government, the system will work automagically to purge itself of parasites. Those of us who study game theory and complex systems know this to be a fallacy. We agree with many of Ron Paul's principles, but we apply them in practical ways that take into account how injustices and parasitic behavior creep into a system and form their own niches. In other words, a principle drives goals, but is not the algorithm for implementing a system.

35. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    35   12:17pm Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Dan8267 says Now let me hear why I should vote for the others. And that's what it really comes down to. +1 Unfortunately, many if not most of Ron Paul supporters will not support the other candidates and they are growing fast. Ron Paul is the only candidate that are attracting a lot of the young and independent voters. Even some democrats are now for Ron Paul. Ron Paul is now surging in NH as well: http://www.ronpaul2012.com/2012/01/05/ron-paul-surging-in-new-hampshire-following-top-tier-finish-in-iowa If we can at least agree on this, our only chance is to stick with Ron Paul and help him gain more support. What do you think?

36. Dan8267 Follow Befriend (17) 785 threads 7,969 comments Boca Raton, FL Premium

    36   12:44pm Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Anonymousone says Unfortunately, many if not most of Ron Paul supporters will not support the other candidates and they are growing fast Support is simply voting for the lesser of the two evils. Having signed the NDAA, I've switch from reluctantly siding with Obama over all non-Paul candidates to reluctantly siding with any candidate against Obama. I suspect that signing the NDAA is going to convince a lot of soulless flip-flopping whores, er independents, like me to go from Obama to any Republican. Anonymousone says What do you think? We're fucked. I guess the good thing is that Ron Paul is closest to getting nominated as he has ever come in his life. I've been quite surprised that he's steadily holding the second place and not losing support. He's been consistently close to first place. The question is whether the Romney haters will cave into Romney or go for Ron Paul. I still think that Ron Paul has less than a 50% chance of getting the Republican nomination. However, I do think that out of all Republican candidates, Ron Paul stands the best chance in the general election. Die hard party members will always vote for their party, but the flip-floppers and centrist voters are more likely to vote for Ron Paul than the other Republicans. I can even see both The Occupy Wall Street and The Tea Party protesters voting for Paul. I don't see OWS voting for Romney.

37. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    37   12:52pm Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Dan8267 says I can even see both The Occupy Wall Street and The Tea Party protesters voting for Paul. I don't see OWS voting for Romney. Fanned.

38. Anonymousone Follow Befriend (2) 511 threads 521 comments Anonymousone's website

    38   12:54pm Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   And let's not forget that the candidates have yet to declare who will be their running mate. This can make or break them too.

39. Dan8267 Follow Befriend (17) 785 threads 7,969 comments Boca Raton, FL Premium

    39   1:38pm Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   I can see Romney partnering up with just about any other candidate. I can't see Paul choosing any of the other candidates as a running mate. I think he would pick someone who didn't run in the primaries. Now, I don't think this is going to happen, but I could imagine Ron Paul picking Peter Schiff as a running mate. The have very similar views. I don't think it would be a good choice for bolstering support though. As a side note, I was pretty shocked that Christine O'Donnell threw her support to Romney. I would have thought she'd go with a more evangelical choice.

40. HousingWatcher Follow Befriend 285 threads 1,760 comments

    40   1:39pm Thu 5 Jan 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Anonymousone says And let's not forget that the candidates have yet to declare who will be their running mate. This can make or break them too. Candidates only delcare who their running mate is IF they get the nomination.

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