WatchPlease bear with me as I've just got home from watching The Descendants (slightly depressing) and having a few beers at Thai Stick on Fillmore...
So.. I've been closed out from a few deals this year. Mostly duplex short sales.
I've noticed a couple of these sales have been dual-agent.
My question: What are the possible cons of using the selling agent and taking advantage their greedy whore-like tendencies to secure a sale for oneself?
I mean, any offer letter I would write (or have the greedy whore selling realtor write) would include an condition contingency. I would have my own inspectors check out the property.
I could give a fuck if the greedy whore makes double commish. And it if helps me get a good deal on an owner-occupy duplex then, whatevs.
Or am I missing something? Comments welcome.
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gregpfielding's website
iwog says
This is true, but it is also bad advice.
First off, most buyers who think they know enough about the process, terms, etc., generally don't. For every 10 who think they know it all, probably only 1 actually does.
Second, your own agent is likely to do a much better job of looking after your own best interests. It is NOT true that both listing and selling (buyer's) agents have an allegiance to the Seller. A buyer's agent has a fiduciary responsibility to protect you. And, mock all you want, but that has value.
It has a lot of value if you are working with a good agent.
Third, it's free. There is no reason not to work with your own agent. You probably aren't going to get any discount by working directly with the listing agent, despite what some here may say.
Finally, while it can happen that the winning buyer in a bidding war is also represented by the listing agent, it is the exception, not the rule. You are generally better off working with a good agent and letting them fight for you.
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Seriously it costs less than $300 to take the CA online real estate courses and they are easy.
The funny part is that there are a bunch of laws you have to memorize (like 1968 civil rights law, etc) and they tell you EXACTLY what is illegal and what not to do. WHICH is funny because if you are a greedy sociopath the classes give you a recipe for fraud by telling you 'dont do these things' (my list of faves below , all illegal yet common in the past or present).
1. illegal to drive minorities to minority neighborhoods ('steering'). (Im not sure how to make money doing this)
2. its illegal to 'induce panic selling' to get a listing. (funny if you told someone in 2006 to 'sell now before prices crash' that was probably illegal! ha!
3. illegal to flush offers - all must be presented to owner (obviously this is huge and common to flush offers, mostly by hiding from them somehow behind voicemail, put wrong address in MLS, steal key from lockbox, chain gate shut so no one can view yet appears for sale in mls so bank will approve SS to your confederate, etc)
4. illegal to withold knowledge of home defects.
if you know these laws you are armed with weapons in the transaction.
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gregpfielding says
A buyer doesn't need to know anything about the process. The seller's agent will do whatever is necessary, even to the point of making sacrifices or even putting forth additional money from the commission, to close the deal.
As far as terms go, they are so standard now that the only words a buyer needs to utter is "inspection period" and "closing costs". I think these two concepts are easily understood by anyone. Furthermore most buyers are going to have their own loan agent who will be more than happy to discuss terms and will not represent the seller at all.
gregpfielding says
This is the great mountain of bullshit that buyer's agents make their living off of. NO AGENT I'VE EVER MET LOOKS AFTER A BUYERS BEST INTEREST!!!!! I have extensive experience buying and selling real estate, and in NO instance did any agent I've ever been associated with have any intent to protect the buyer from anything.
COMPLETING THE DEAL AND GETTING PAID is #1. All else is secondary. Sometimes an agent will feel pangs of guilt and ask the seller for concessions such as repairs, but claiming that any buyers agent anywhere would for one microsecond endanger a closing to protect the buyer is arrogant bullshit. It has not happened. Ever!
gregpfielding says
This is a lie and I have numerous personal examples to back it up. I'm involved in a short sale right now that was delisted a day after I made my offer with the selling agent and neither the owner nor the bank had even been presented with the deal let alone had time for a thumbs up or thumbs down.
Now it's 30 days after my offer. The bank hasn't even given an answer yet, and my little listing agent has been piling up backup offers without letting them be seen by anyone. I've been on the shitty end of this process many times and it's amazing to be on the other side for once and watch it in action.
gregpfielding says
A bidding war is the exception and not the rule when you work directly with the listing agent. A listing agent will fight off other offers, delist the property, and even remove the lock box to make sure no one else has a chance to screw up his/her income.
gregpfielding says
Getting rid of a buyers agent forever was the best decision I ever made and has saved me tens of thousands of dollars. I currently own 10 properties and will probably buy more in the future.
In my experience, buyers agents are a menace that must be avoided at all costs. Pretty much everything you've asserted here is exactly the opposite of the way things really work.
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Malkovich's website
Great thread. I think someone just got PWNED
Thanks iwog - next time I am going to speak to the listing realt-whore directly.
What approach do you suggest? "Hi, I don't have a realt-whore. Will you be mine?"
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Malkovich says
Yes. He'll be excited and cautious at the same time. Cautious because he doesn't want to screw up and pooch the deal. When you sit down and write up the offer, you can take it point by point and ask lots of questions.
The essential parts of an offer are the price, the period for inspection, the time allowed for closing, (generally 30-60 days) and sometimes cash back from the seller to help with closing costs.
Most of this is standard which is why the real estate agent's protests against knowing the process are so ridiculous. I made two separate offers in January from two different listing agents. In both cases our conversation went like this:
"Write up an offer. I'll pay $X cash and I want 7 days for inspection. Usual terms. Thanks!"
When the offer is accepted, the conversation goes like this:
"Please meet me at the house on x/x/xx so my guy can do the inspection. What title company do you want me to write the good faith check to? Thanks!
When you get the paperwork, check over everything to make sure the agent didn't do anything stupid. Although you get a huge pile of papers to sign at closing, all you're really going to care about his the HUD-1 and the note if you're financing the property. Everything else is disclosure nonsense and goes in the shredder.
One last note. As I said from the beginning, using a seller's agent presumes you've done your homework. At the point you make an offer, you already know about HOA rules and dues, Mello Roos, property values in the area, zoning restrictions, and anything your inspection turned up.
Not that a buyers agent is going to give a shit about any of this anyway, (I mean look at how many realtors list HOA dues in the listing, full disclosure my ass) but if you're representing yourself you don't have any excuses.
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Thank you iwog for taking the time to type up that post. When I read gregpfielding, I had so much to say. Then reading his post further, it was too much to bother with.
You nailed it iwog.
A buyer agent will just follow the listing agent's instructions. Buyer agent is really just a messenger, with access to the lock box.
I am certain every buyer agent would rather represent sellers. But they do not have the clientele.
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San Bruno, CA
I agree with Iwog on this issue (only?). When I bought my house (SS) I went straight to the listing agent with no buyers agent. Since short sales are a PITA for all involved I wanted the guy to be motivated to close the deal at my price. As it turns out a double commission is a mighty motivator! He wouldn't give me back any of the commission but man I never have seen anyone work so hard to close the deal! When the inspection turned up some minor issues I knew he was crazy to close the deal so I threatened to back out without a big price reduction. That guy went to the bank's short sale department, who denied the reduction, then to the banks upper management and got me almost $40k off the accepted offer (on the condition we close in 10 days which we did)! Now I have a great house with a 15 year note, an in-law unit that pays half the mortgage, quite a bit of "instant equity" and I am very close to work. If I had a buyers agent I am convinced that I would have never got this house.
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I don't have the extensive experience as IWOG does, but I totally agree with his assessment. What I have been doing for my last 3 home purchases was to first fully negotiate the price with the listing agent/seller. Then when the sales price was agreed upon, I negotiated 'half' of the buyers agent commission as back to me or rather 1/4 of the double dip commission. Not much I know, but for my last purchase that extra 13K more than paid for my first years real estate tax bill.
I also believe that I received much better service from the listing agent then had I used a buyers agent and in this single agent situation they always share confidential information about the seller and other very informative tid bits to make the negotiations a shoe in....I know, it is very unethical on their part, but hey, make the game work for YOU!
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Malkovich's website
This is one of the most useful threads ever for me.
It actually makes me regret I didn't do things the "iwog-way" on the last couple properties I was interested in. Who knows how things would have turned out?
For the place I wrote an offer on a couple weeks ago (using a buying realt-whore) I actually called the listing realt-whore on the phone to ask questions about the house before I hired my buying realt-whore.
Listing realt-whore was surprisingly curt with me when I asked about the house and, as such, I didn't have the gumption to inquire if she was interested in whoring herself out for a FS, BBBJCIM dual-agent GFE 6% commish.
Won't be so bashful next time. =)
If you can't beat 'em...
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Mal & EBguy,
How much are you willing to pay to learn how to buy properties at the steps? Just curious. :)
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Buyer agents are useless. We just need one Realtard to complete the transaction.
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Las Vegas, NV
LASVEGASWINNER's website
My early success in Buying Real Estate below-market is due to this amazing "pit-bull" negotiator, who consistently got my way below asking price offer accepted. I truly believe certain people are "born" salesman, and I am not. I go into every real estate transaction trusting no one, including myself, and I find it's always better to hire a "trained gun" to be part of negotiation.
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46 male
Menlo Park, CA
But it really seems that the buyer is much better off just negotiating with the seller's agent. Without a "buyer's agent".
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LASVEGASWINNER's website
An experienced sellers agent, has been involved in many negotiations, and knows every trick to use on the novice buyer. Thry have had many hours of seminars and workshops and how to close a deal. The good ones make you feel part "of the family" talk you into something they want to sell you, and you don't even know you have been fleeced.
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LASVEGASWINNER says
It was success in your early years, but that's no longer the case? So what happened? You gave back all your gain & more on this last bubble?
I was raised & taught that if you earn your money in a crooked, twisted or dishonest way, god will find a way to take it away from you. This is the reason why I don't feel sorry for crooked RE agents, brokers, and loan officers who lost all of their money during this past bubble. What goes around, comes around.
Treat others the way you want to be treated, and things will work out better for you. :)
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E-man says
Is there some trick to it? I thought you just showed up with a cashiers check for the deposit and bid away. Of course you are bidding against all the sharks and everyone else and their brother who are buying into the hype that real estate is now going to explode upward as the crisis "has passed."
It seems that working with the listing realtor may actually be more advantageous for my personal situation than trying to score anything at an auction. As Iwog clearly detailed, the listing realtor is working to secure their commission and your offer. You can inspect the property and perform due diligence.
I am looking to owner occupy a multi so I'd rather have the luxury of looking at listings as opposed to what comes up on the courthouse steps. I did subscribe to some foreclosure sites and it seemed that SFHs dominated. Just a smattering of multis as far as I could tell.
Of course you're welcome to let me know if I am missing anything here.
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I've bought three homes on the courthouse steps as well, but those deals are drying up fast and banks aren't as willing to let them go cheap anymore. If you go this route, I suggest you either verify it's vacant or talk to the current tenant before bidding.
It can be lucrative though. Figure a 20% discount buying at auction for the risk you take and make sure you run a preliminary title report.
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LASVEGASWINNER says
You mean the guy who managed to bankrupt a casino?
He was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, cash stuffed into his pockets and filled his first diaper with diamond studded meconium.
Yeah, that was a really difficult "climb" to the top.
*edit*
Oh, yeah I almost forgot... Then there is also this:
http://www.salon.com/2011/04/18/donald_trump_net_worth/
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This buyers agent from vegas is so funny. Typical agent line 'bull dog negoiator' haha. (its also hilarious how be brags about his success, mentions donald trump and probably some other smarmy slimeball buzzwords salesmen and con artists use. next he will guarantee you 30% returns and name drop Kiyosaki! lol)
Buyers agent has zero ZERO room to negotiate - right from the start they are adding a 3% premium to the deal. Thats 15k on a 500k property! So if you 'give' this 15k to the LISTING/SELLING agent its not hard to imagine they will flush other offers, or not let other offers even be submitted to the loan owner/undawata owner or bank and slam your low ball offer home.
If you overpay by 100k they would still want to flush your offer since the extra 100k in price would only add a very small commission to the sellers agent whereas taking the double commission is like selling the property for DOUBLE the listing price. (ask yourself, would you do something as simple as put the property as pending asap in order to double your yearly salary? YES YOU WOULD you have bills and a family just like they do.
i got shut out of deals before many times using a dumb buyers agent. it doesnt matter if its a down market or up this is always the case. remember its legal and considered ethical by the NAR. Only a dumb noob uses a buyers agent. This board is filled with them.
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PockyClipsNow says
Yeah, it is sounding like the best way to get used-house-salesperson to work in your best interest is to go with the seller's agent.
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Las Vegas, NV
LASVEGASWINNER's website
"using a dumb buyers agent." Brilliant! Why would you hire such a person to negotiate.
It's the same logic as representing yourself as your "lawyer" in a court of law. Having gone to a few negotiating skills training, I can assure you that you will be at a disadvantage when a truly skilled agent works you over and you won't even know it.
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LASVEGASWINNER says
No hiring a real-estate agent is nothing like hiring a lawyer. It is a totally different pay structure and business model.
A lawyer that got paid by the prosecution -- and where said pay increased in proportion to increases in your prison sentence -- would be operating under similar incentives to a real-estate agent.
The pay structure of a buyers agents incentives them to work against the best interests of the buyer. Why would I hire such a person to negotiate?
As stated by others in this thread, at least a double-dipping sellers agent is motivated -- by the pay structure -- to get the buyer a better deal.
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LASVEGASWINNER says
Where in hell do you get this stuff?
1. A listing agent is bound under law to represent both clients and not take sides in a negotiation. Although everyone on this site knows this is total bullshit, it does let the agent off the hook with respect to driving a hard bargain for the seller and brings us to point 2.
2. A listing agent who is paid double fees is FAR more likely to put the closing ahead of all other concerns. This almost always works in the buyers favor since a successful deal is now more important than a high closing price for the seller.
3. ALL buyers agents I've ever been associated with do little more than courier offers and counter offers back and forth. In my experience, a buyer's agent attempts to earn his fees after the offer is accepted by complaining about little shit such as pluming and electrical problems found on the inspection. In 2009 I used a buyer's agent in a commercial building because it was my first transaction of this kind. She wasted thousands of dollars by forcing the seller to fix a 48-line data system that I did not need instead of putting the money somewhere where it could have been useful. Her representation cost me money.
4. Real Estate agents have proven to be some of the most incompetent quasi-professionals on the planet in my experience. The assertion that some agent is going to get me thousands of dollars off a closing price is ludicrous. In 2006 Buyer's agents herded people into homes they couldn't afford like cattle for slaughter. How many times did a California RE agent utter the words: "Wait a year or two and you'll save hundreds of thousands of dollars"?
Answer: Not once.
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Malkovich's website
Iwog seems legit. I'm in agreement.
Um, I'll just leave this picture here and be on my way....
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How many cases have been prosecuted with agents on both sides colluding to screw everyone in the transaction?
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iwog says
I would have bitched and moaned about the system, then gotten you a price reduction instead of getting it fixed!
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robertoaribas says
While Roberto makes a fair point, such buyer agents who actually carefully circumvent the embedded conflict of interest are very rare.
The embedded conflict of interest (which has already been beaten to death here at pat.net) is the fact that the buyer agent's commission is a % of the purchase price. This may not matter if you are buying a cheap investment property (say less than 100k => 3k is the buyer commission max), but it will be a significant hit on the buyer's bottom line if it is a residence property in a highly desirable neighborhood (say excess of 300k).
I would say - find a buyer's agent who would fit your needs and negotiate his/her commission to be completely unlinked from the transaction. This way -- you can get the value from the agent that you want (which is taking care of all documentation and making sure you are adequately advised on local RE issues). Of course a listing agent can do the same thing too, but they won't be obliged to do so after the offer is accepted -- as iwog already pointed out.
Excellent thread.
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uomo_senza_nome says
This has been discussed in this thread:
http://patrick.net/forum/?p=1074661
You may find it interesting.
The problem is that an individual agent does not have much power in affecting the pay structure of real estate agents.
As said by gregpfielding in the afore mentioned thread.
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leoj707 says
So the NAR behemoth won't allow what's in the best interest of the buyer?
Brilliant.
I think then the only other alternatives to ensure you don't get fleeced is if you know someone personally who's got the training. or do it yourself
Time and money are the key tradeoffs as I see it.
But I really think the people interested in buying high-end residential properties should be very careful. They can easily get fleeced by the agents.
Of course if I was a high-end buyer, I'd take my time to get myself equipped with as much knowledge as possible prior to the buying process and I'd do it myself.
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Its harder to get fleeced now.
I remember in 2005/06 it appeared that half the >1m homes were actually being flipped by Agents. All of whom got liar loans/zero down/cash back at close. If you got special access to homes for sale before they go into MLS you can have your conferderate buy it to flip.
Of course all these agents went BK and now liar loans are gone mostly. Anyone in america could buy a 1.5 mill home in 2005 with zero down and no job or assets and leave closing with 50k cash back. Whatacountry! YAY Greenspan!
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PockyClipsNow says
Sad but true. Fool the people into becoming debt(excessive) slave - birth place of widening gap between poor and rich. America will not be the same if this is not fixed.
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PockyClipsNow says
Yeah I agree, ridiculous. The smart ones were selling their houses at that time or buying CDS against those worthless paper.
PockyClipsNow says
Not sure about that though. Interest rates are at an all-time low, and if a buyer has the ability to buy -- then the likelihood of getting fleeced is still there. Low interest rates provide a floor support for prices.
Sure--we don't have truck loads of people competing purely because underwriting standards have improved from 'worst' to 'alright'. But lower interest rates still encourage buyers who are borderline qualified but high risk.
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uomo_senza_nome says
That's the game.
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uomo_senza_nome says
Fact of the matter is so, so many people (myself, up until recently) STILL think a buying realt-whore is a necessary component to buying a place.
Why would a psychopathic, greedy realt-whore offer his services for a different payment structure than a possible 3% of a sale price?
Would they accept an hourly rate for their services? A set fee regardless of the sale price? How does one determine such a fee?
Just think, on a $500K house, your buying realtor gets $15K in commissions. Assuming he takes you around to 10 properties, and say 2 hours for each visit (to simply unlock the place), and then you find a place you want to write an offer, offer letter takes about 15 minutes to fill in the blanks and render but let's just say 4 hours for calls back and forth with the listing realt-whore.
Add that up and you've got ~25 hours. $15k/25 = $600/hr
Those are pretty good wages for a high school education and some rinky dink realt-whore license certification that almost anyone with a GED and some cramming skills can pass.
What realt-whore would give up this kind of pay? Never heard of one.
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Malkovich says
As I said, it's a time vs. money trade off. While I agree with Iwog that HUD1 is the most important document you'll sign -- it is equally important to have adequate local RE knowledge to ensure you're doing the right thing in several other aspects (inspection, findings based on inspection, things that depend on local RE conditions that you may overlook etc.)
So yeah -- I can see the need for a buying agent, it is utterly despicable that they have a built-in conflict of interest.
Malkovich says
Depends on the local RE market. If it is a totally beaten down market like Miami or Vegas, may be the agent will do it for a price negotiated separate from the transaction -- purely because there's not that many transactions taking place anyway.
Malkovich says
Well -- as the NAR lobby doesn't allow this process, there's no point in even discussing further about it LOL. No choice for the buyer.
As I said, excess of 300k purchase price on a home would mean that I do the homework myself. No buying agent, direct interface with the listing agent.
All points stated by Iwog are true -- you'd be better off taking your time and doing the research. You are paying yourself by saving the buyer agent commission.
Malkovich says
Yeah, don't have a buyer agent for high-end properties.
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Just think, on a $500K house, your buying realtor gets $15K in commissions.
The RE broker (under whose license the buyer's agent operates) usually gets a 50% cut, so the realtor takes home $7,500.
I don't have much to add to the discussion other than to say, of course, most of what I've learned on the topic comes from pat.net. The first I heard of 'dual agency jujitsu' was from FormerAptBroker. He actually holds a license but doesn't take the 3% for himself. Instead he finds that he gets more mileage by engaging the seller's agent on his behalf when buying properties -- that certainly says a lot.
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Los Angeles, CA
Yes FormerAptBroker had useful sage advice - VERY RARE and you need to have some basis of experience to even recognize it when you hear it.
Its true mostly there are four commissions paid out depending upon how it is agreed that they split it. 2 brokers and 2 salesmen is normal BUT if you get a selling broker that is double dipping he gets all 4 shares. Thats how you make a living when sales volume is down 50% from peak bubble.
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Interesting discussion. I would like to add a few things as we purchased late last summer.
The things I see are this:
1. You are under no obligation to pay X% commission unless you sign an agreement that states that.
2. If you do your own research and find a home you want, tell that to the Realtor.
3. You pay for a service. You can buy your own home through a competent real estate lawyer. What about your title insurance? What about your earnest money? Anyone can negotiate themselves, but a buyers agent works for the buyer. It is that simple. They more than likely don't even know the other realtor or thier broker.
4. You want to spend 300,000 on something and not be sure it is legally yours, doesn't have defects, not sure a new Interstate is being built less than 100 years from your property line, HOA fees are 200 a month, a new park is being put in the vacant land right behind your house and you will be charge a special tax because a bike path is along your property line, etc...
There are jerks out there, plenty of them. There are good ones out there as well. If you are financing your home, the FHA is more than likely going to purchase it from whoever lends you the money, if that is the case you need a certified home inspection.
Everything is negotiable people. The internet is a great source but has limitations. Read an article yesterday where brokers are not allowing zillow, trulia, yahoo, etc... to list all the properties. Why? Because the brokers pay for this and don't get any of the action. You see a FSBO on zillow? The feeds come to the MLS from the brokers who own the service.
I could go on and on, but if you contact a Sales Agent and tell them you found a property listed for XX dollars that you want to buy, they would be fools not to discount thier slice of the commission. If they won't, find another one. You did all the work, don't give up what is rightfully yours. But if I spend 300K on a house, I want to know for sure that there are no surprises.
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leo707's website
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AGCMRET says
And what was the commission % you payed on your purchase?
Did you use a buyers agent?
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LASVEGASWINNER says
I think that Iwog explained how to figure this out pretty well; without using a home inspector that is beholden to a used-house-salesperson who has the incentive to close the deal a quickly as possible and for the highest price as possible.