WatchPlease bear with me as I've just got home from watching The Descendants (slightly depressing) and having a few beers at Thai Stick on Fillmore...
So.. I've been closed out from a few deals this year. Mostly duplex short sales.
I've noticed a couple of these sales have been dual-agent.
My question: What are the possible cons of using the selling agent and taking advantage their greedy whore-like tendencies to secure a sale for oneself?
I mean, any offer letter I would write (or have the greedy whore selling realtor write) would include an condition contingency. I would have my own inspectors check out the property.
I could give a fuck if the greedy whore makes double commish. And it if helps me get a good deal on an owner-occupy duplex then, whatevs.
Or am I missing something? Comments welcome.
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LASVEGASWINNER says
Winning situation, eh?
OK, correct me if I am wrong here, but lets say hypothetically that Bull Dog "The Negotiator" buyers agent, or "BD" for short, closes on 24 properties a year, with the average price being $100k.
That brings BD's yearly take home to $72k.
Now of course BD is providing a wonderful value for the $3k per house, but lets say that he can break free from his chain and crank his negotiating skills to 11. In doing so he manages to get concessions for his valued clients and dicker the average price down to $95K per/house. Also, he spends a little more time with his clients and encourages them to refuse deals that might not be "right" for them. Spending this extra time reduces the sales he can close each year from 24 to 22.
With the increased effort and integrity BD's new take home is $62,700/year.
So, providing more value, and working harder in a clients best interests costs BD $9,300 a year, not an insignificant portion of his income.
Hmmmm.... I wonder what a buyers agent would really do in this situation.... hmmmm...
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more confusion sowing by agents here.
Letting the listing/selling agent double dip DOES NOT mean no inspection, no escrow, no contingency clauses to get out. It means 1 or 2 agents get the whole commish vs 3 or 4 agents getting the commish (depends if they are idiots they will only be salesmen, if they are of merely average IQ they will be a broker and have no one to split it with and keep the whole commish)
when dealing with agents ask this FIRST:
Do you have a SALERPERSON or BROKER license (verify this at dre.ca.gov by typing in thier name)
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LASVEGASWINNER says
Again you make this sound like brain surgery when it is well within the ability of a 10-year old.
1. Sign the offer
2. Arrange a time for the home inspection
3. Have seller pay for section 1 repairs (standard)
4. Bitch about section 2 repairs and ask the listing agent to get you a credit if possible.
The winning situation is using greed to motivate the seller's agent to make you happy and close the deal. The losing situation is making yourself look like all the other offers so the listing broker doesn't care who finally ends up with the house.
Furthermore a seller's agent who has a deal worth 6% instead of 3% will correctly determine that kicking back 1% to make both parties happy is well worth it if necessary. I've had this happen twice now.
LASVEGASWINNER says
I'm an experienced investor and I've paid for my mistakes. Most of those mistakes involved using a buyer's agent.
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YES most of my mistakes were using a buyers agent.
I got outbid was mostly what happened.
One deal was a NICE HOUSE and I told my useless buyers agent that I would beat the other offer by 10k up to maybe a bit more than that.
The listing agent came back with this gem"sorry we arent taking anymore offers, the owners really want the home to go to these other people for a lower price because they have a kid in the local high school".
What is more likely? The listing agent double dippled and flushed my offer OR the seller is Mother Theresa?
School of hard knocks hurts!
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iwog says
Nice work shredding the BS apart Iwog.
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uomo_senza_nome says
I agree, well done.
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San Francisco, CA
Malkovich's website
Slightly off topic but I went out to dinner last night with an old friend of mine - actually an ex-GF.
She is engaged to a realtor who works in the south bay.
We had never spoken too much about his profession as I try not to be nosy and she is a somewhat private person.
However, I could not resist speaking of my recent adventures in real estate and commented on how getting dual-agent, double commission deal lined up seems to be the popular way to get a property these days.
She agreed and proceeded to tell me her finance has been very busy closing sales as a listing realtor. She went on to tell me that he will give top priority to a dual-agent deal and not even present other offers to the seller even if they are higher.
The way she said it was so nonchalant I thought that maybe she misunderstood me (my friend is very sweet and even a bit naive).
I pressed her on it to see if she actually understood what she was saying and she did.
I know, this is nothing new, but I was a bit shocked to hear my friend so casually admit that her fiance is committing fraud on a regular basis.
Amazing.
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Las Vegas, NV
LASVEGASWINNER's website
"Again you make this sound like brain surgery when it is well within the ability of a 10-year old."
Then why are there 100's of real estate seminars costing 1000's of dollars being conducted in Los Angeles this week end. I guess the "10 year olds"
need their diaper changed.
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LASVEGASWINNER says
“The fundamental principle of human action, the law, that is to political economy what the law of gravitation is to physics is that men seek to gratify their desires with the least exertion ” - Henry George.
Real estate agents are the living, breathing example of the above concept stated by a great man.
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LASVEGASWINNER says
You're kidding right? Since when did most seminars stop being a scam to fleece money from hopeful investors?
Tell us Mr. realtor, what were the seminars saying in 2006? Were they helping people learn about the market or leading them off to be slaughtered?
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Malkovich says
Actually, that sounded right on topic for a thread entitled "Greedy whore dual agents - what are the cons anyway?"
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how long until this annoying agent gives up posting on patrick.net?!
I give him about 2 more weeks.
He isnt even making a small effort at being honest - he comes on here with maximum bs! We all know about the 'get rich quick' idiot fleecing seminar game. This dope even mentioned donald trump - huge red flag that HE IS ONE of the idiots paying 3k to watch a guy talk for an hour.
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LASVEGASWINNER says
How many of those seminars explain that buyer's agents have a strong financial incentive to work against their clients best interest?
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San Bruno, CA
A friend of mine got a buyers agent and didn't get an offer accepted after looking/offering for a year, then paid way too much. (I think it was $539k for a 2 bed townhouse/condo in the foggy/windy part of Pacifica in 2009). I found a house in about 2 weeks and got my initial offer accepted by going directly to the listing agent. I paid more than 100k LESS than he did and got a single family house with an in-law and views of the mountains from the living room, 3 full bathrooms and a decent size yard ect ect. He is pissed. I would say as pathetic as it is, if you want to buy a house, this is how you have to do it now days. The listing agent holds the keys and he will use that leverage to get HIM the most money out of any deal.
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woggs1 says
You're making waaaay too much sense for LASVEGASWINNER. Clearly, this is going to fly above his head.
leoj707 says
None. That's because these 'buyer agent' seminars are all most definitely deluded. Some of the agents that I have interacted actually believe they are acting in their client's best interest even though reality says that they won't . They won't admit it, because if they did -- there's no need for them in the first place.
PockyClipsNow says
LOL very true. Trump is the poster boy representation of the root cause of many problems in America: non-productive rent seeking.
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Just get a real estate license yourself. Its easy enough to do. Then YOU can earn both sides of the commission.
Stop whining and do something about it, geezzzzzzz.
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Honest Abe says
Really? OK. So, I can just get my license and then find houses to sell and sell them to myself? Brilliant!
Do tell, good sir, how I can make this happen?
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The worst abuses of dual agency i have seen are when the loan owner is out of state. The listing agents literally control everything since the owner isnt even there to observe lack of a sign/mls listing/ or foot traffic to the home. whatasweetdeal for an agent.
This is the only reason agents go into property management. when those people sell they normally get the listing and can double dip the pocket listing. $weet!
All the news stories now talke about banks doing WAY MORE short sales due to forecloure backlog/legal issues. So we can expect way way more dual agent BS pocket listing for the next 5 years as short sales are prime target for this (loan owner gets zero proceeds from sale, proably only can get illegal kickback from buyer/agent).
Someway somehow the feds have managed to put MORE fraud in the housing market (vastly increased short sales are gonna make a fraud tsunami)
How to stop this? LET THE BANK HOLDING FIRST MORTGAGE PICK THE LISTING AGENT. but that cant happen since the under water loan owner picks the crook to list the home since the bank 'doesnt own the home' whatamess.
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Malkovich, why not Google: Get your real estate online. After you finish the course, you can then take a state test, and if you pass - wallah - you are now in the position to be a greedy, dual agent whore all on your own!!
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Honest Abe says
Is that so? I think I am missing something here... how do I represent the seller of a house I want to buy? Sounds tricky... forgive my noob question. Also, the business I currently run requires a significant amount of my time. How exactly, do you propose I find the exact property I want to buy and then somehow magically get to be the listing realt-whore? And, profit?
Or are you really just bothered by the fact that I and most others on this forum are calling it the way it is and your (completely fucking nonsensical) reply is "get your real estate license?"
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First you list the property for sale. If you think its worth buying, you would present the seller with a purchase agreement offering to purchase the property, disclosing that you are licensed, and that you are purchasing it with the expectation of making a profit. There may be other appropriate disclosures to make.
You can also paint your house yourself and save the money...or, pay someone to do it for you. Kinda like being a realtor - or not. If you want to be the realtor you save the money, if you don't want to be the realtor you save the money too. There is no fee to the buyer AND you'd get paid if you were the listing agent - SWEET!
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One quick question for novice buyer like me. Is there anything except contract where you might need help from buyer's agent ? I mean during escrow or loan process ? What is hud 1 ?
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leo9 says
You don't need the buyer's agent for any of that stuff. The listing agent will handle all of it.
In theory, the buyer's agent is there to negotiate on your behalf and make sure you're not overpaying for a property. The buyer's agent is supposed to check prices against prior sales, help you with the inspection report, and pressure the seller to fix things or nitpick the price down if there's cause.
In reality the buyer's agent is going to do everything in his power to get you to buy any house as soon as possible at whatever price you will accept. That's the only way he gets paid. Buyer's agents no longer function to track down homes since the criminal MLS scam was ripped apart by the internet. Now most agents will ask for your email address and simply spam you with all the current listings. It's become a joke.
The loan process is all handled by your loan agent. If you have questions, just ask because you're paying them. Escrow is handled by the title company. If you have questions, just ask them because you're paying them too. If you have questions about the price, condition of the house, or items on the inspection report, just ask the listing agent. You're paying him double.
With so many people on your payroll, adding a buyer's agent is a complete waste of money.
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Ducky said: Again you make this sound like brain surgery when it is well within the ability of a 10-year old.
1. Sign the offer
2. Arrange a time for the home inspection
3. Have seller pay for section 1 repairs (standard)
4. Bitch about section 2 repairs and ask the listing agent to get you a credit if possible.
Let's bear in mind that iwog's had several rounds of this to make mistakes and get the system down (lessons learned in the school of hard knocks are not easily forgotten). I agree, it's not rocket science, and a lot of the time it's just becoming familiar with the lingo (Is that a fixture? Or do I need to call it out in the offer?) Local customs and regulations are another area that agents have a handle on. You don't need an agent, but you should familiarize yourself with practices in that region. That way, if you decide to flaunt the customs, you can do so without looking silly or insulting anyone (unintentionally). In my area, three things I can think of that may not apply in other municipalities are local transfer tax, sewer lateral inspection, and RECO. Not a huge deal (well, a 1.5% local transfer tax is a non-trivial amount), but you had better be prepared if you don't want any surprises.
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EBGuy says
A couple years ago I sold a house on Craigslist and it was the first time I ever sold real estate. The title company knew all about the local customs and whatnot and the buyers loan agent helped him out with all the purchase stuff. Any questions I had were answered with a quick phone call. The sale went through without any big pitfalls. It really was not that complicated and I would do it again in a heartbeat. If you use a standard purchase offer everything is spelled out on who pays what and any contingencies. I don't see a reason for a buyers or sellers agent. Because most properties are available through a sellers agent you pretty much have to play the game. Hopefully someday real estate agents are phased out.
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Urgent ---
Can the seller's agent represent more than one buyer ?
I really liked one house and I want to buy it. I am trying
to use seller's agent to buy the house but it seems that
few other buyers approached him. He didn't mention it
but he is trying to show he is all ethical (bullshit). He is also
not offering any cash back. HE wants to keep all 6 percent.
Bast****. ALSO not willing to negotiate the price. I am just
wondering if he is just trying to represent more than one
buyer and trying to squeeze the money.
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Here's the way it works.
Buyer's agent called seller's agent.
BA: Hey, what you got?
SA: Typical asshole. Think they're owed 10x the bubble price because they got in before Christmas 2006.
BA: The wife blow you?
SA: Twice. Then the husband shows up with a jar of Vaseline. I called the cops. Wife's kinda nuts. Lotta teeth.
BA: I know.
SA: Yeah?
BA: Yeah. Thinks I'm gonna screw my client for a toothy blow job. As if I needed any incentive, much less teeth marks on my dick.
SA: They're so smart, these investors.
BA: Hahahahahahahahahaha!
SA: Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
BA: So, what's our story?
SA: OK, about, 30 offers, including one deserving family with a kid with no arms and legs and no face and no ass that needs a basement to hide the hideous monster progeny. They're willing to pay 8x their buying price to live on a cul de sac near the district's best grammar school for their normal kid. It's just that they've got an inheritance overseas they need help repatriating.
BA: Oh, FUCK! You've got the Nigerians back in the act?
SA: I love those guys! They're natural Realtors®
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46 male
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Ah, the Nigerians. I once misspent a whole day at work laughing while reading this site:
http://www.419eater.com/html/hall_of_shame.htm
No, I take it back. That was one of the best spent days of my entire life.
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APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says
Please no stupid comments. I need serious advice.
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leo9 says
They generally don't offer cash back unless you're the only one using him and he needs to make the deal go through.
Unfortunately it looks like the market is heating up so it wouldn't surprise me if he has competing offers. This is why I've been telling people for 3 years now they should look into buying while interest rates are low and home prices have crashed.
Instead of catching a falling knife, I'm betting a few are now going to try and catch an ICBM.
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APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says
Nice. Fucking comedy gold! Tony, are you familiar with the Redfin forums? They really, really need your commentary. Way too sleepy over there.
If you can carve out any time in your busy schedule, please pop on over there and make a few comments. :)
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Posted a couple of items. Seems really earnest over there.
Do Realtors® run the show at Redfin Forums?
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APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says
Not sure. Not much action on those forums so the only time I head over there is after absorbing every word of Patnet, Reddit, SFgate, and my work emails many times over. Things definitely need to be shaken up in that yawnfest.
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leo9 says
Remember he has to give a portion of what he makes to the broker too. Also are you sure he's the listing agent? Often times, the listing agent company sends another agent -- who will be a buyer agent representing you in the transaction :). you may not want a buyer agent, but still you may get one.
leo9 says
I think he's playing hard ball because more than likely -- he does have other legit buyers who are also interested.
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A question for iWog and others who swear by the buyers' dual-agency strategy: does it change your calculation at all if you're dealing with Tuesday auction listings? Ie: when the seller's agent puts the place on the maket attempting to induce multiple bids?
It seems to me that when the bidding is structured that way, the agent can't play the kinds of bid-delay games they normally play to shield themselves from liability. It might therefore make more sense to go with an agent who will refund part of the commission.
My personal situation is that I'm looking in an area that is showing some signs of strength. Houses have been going this way for a couple months, and they are moving for higher than listing price. Long enough that I can see home sale records that confirm that places are moving over asking. I'm thinking of making a bid on such a place, and have an agent who is willing to refund much of his commission, but to whom I'm not committed.
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I don't have extensive experience with dual-agency. I've completed a total of two home purchases this way and I've got a 3th pending on short sale. I also have two very good examples of listing agents refusing to write up my offer when approached with a buyer's agent.
When the home is an REO, the bank requires the listing be kept open a certain amount of time and they want to see all the offers before making a decision. This is the official position.
The unofficial position in REO sales is that once a real estate agent has a dual agency offer in his clutches, he is VERY aggressive at chasing away other offers. I've seen this from both ends.
When you're dealing with a private party including short sales, it gets even more obnoxious. As I posted earlier, I submitted an offer to the listing agent and the house status was changed to pending the very next day. Not only was the offer not accepted yet, but the bank hadn't even seen it!
To answer your question, I don't worry about strategy. I figure I'm going to hold all the cards when making an offer to the listing agent, and I'll let the agent's greed do all the work.
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Thanks, iWog.
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May I suggest you read Donald Trump's "Art of the Deal" and tell me4 how well he has treated others in his climb to the top. I don't think he is bothered by what is coming around.
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APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says
Redfin runs the Redfin forums. And they are are real estate brokerage.
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LASVEGASWINNER says
You mean the guy who managed to bankrupt a casino?
He was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, cash stuffed into his pockets and filled his first diaper with diamond studded meconium.
Yeah, that was a really difficult "climb" to the top.
Then there is also this:
http://www.salon.com/2011/04/18/donald_trump_net_worth/