WatchI am looking to buy a house on Long Island, NY. I have decided not to go with a buyer's agent. So, I called the listing agent to show me the house. She said she will send her assistant to show me. We looked at the house, liked it and said we will put in an offer. I went to the agent's office where again the listing agent's "assistant" was waiting for me. She wrote down my offer and asked me to sign, which I did. Then she asked me to sign a bunch of disclosure forms like lead paint etc. She then pushed me a form to sign. When I asked what it is, she said she will be representing me and not the seller. I said I have not hired her as my agent and I was thinking she is the listing agent. She said she and the listing agent work in the same office and work together. I got pissed off. How can I have the listing agent's buddy as a buyer's agent? Such an arrangement would ensure that I am screwed. I told her that I am not hiring her and I don't want to be represented in this transaction.
What can I do to endure that this agent will not sneak in again to get a commission? I don't want her in the picture anymore. Now that she has already got involved in this deal will she get a cut in the commission? I am so upset that I am considering not to deal with this house. But, we like the house and it would not be right not to proceed with the deal just because of these lousy agents.
If anyone has any advice what I should do, I would like to hear it.
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Middle Island, NY
Thanks APOCALYPSEFUCK for your response. I would not want to waste my time and energy going against her through a civil suit. I only want to ensure that these agents don't try to pull a fast one on me again and I can go about the deal without having to negotiate their obnoxious traps.
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Middle Island, NY
justme, Thanks for educating me about this scam. Now that you say, I recall that at most "open houses" I have not seen the actual listing agent but their "assistant"/ "helper". What can I do to not fall for this scam? By doing this they are simply hurting the sale which is not helping anyone including themselves.
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Monterey, CA
Walk away. This stupid thing is getting old.
Tell the listing agent to get in her damn car and meet the customer.
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Middle Island, NY
Thanks joshuatrio for your advice. I will call the listing agent and insist that I will deal only with her and tell her I am walking away if she sends someone else to do the deal.
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Los Angeles, CA
This is common.
Almost no one here understands how RE commissions work. Lots of confusion/bad advice.
Did you look up these agents to see if they are salespersons or brokers and if so who is the broker if they are both salespersons?
Only a BROKER licensee(in CA) can legally collect a commission. The salesperson licessee get a split of this off a broker who 'is thier boss' and they can only attach to one.
It sounds to me like here you have two salespersons getting in on both sides of the deal (which is what the broker would want) since the broker share is the same and he reduced legal liability a lot. Dual agency deals are litigous.
BTW: you should still go forward with the deal since its fairly close to dual agency, you have the same broker probably here - with 2 agents under them. So the commish is split 3 ways instead of 2. Since the broker is 'in charge' he would like to take the lowball offer in theory since he is double dipping still. Best scenario is a listing where the BROKER lists it and get 'all 4 comissions'. Does that make sense? there are four max per deal (or possibly 5 if there is a referral fee paid to someone else)
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Pleasanton, CA
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PockyClipsNow says
Just ike kids in Africa trying to pick pocket you. I'd say carry a stick and be polite at first and ask them to move back. If you still feel threatened then do your best to provoke them to take the first swing and then open up a flurry that they will never forget on their asses.
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Middle Island, NY
PockyClipsNow, Thanks for explaining how the commissions work. I looked up and found that the agent under whose name the listing is is "Licensed Broker Associate" while her "assistant/helper" who tried to be my buyer's agent is a "Licensed Real Estate Salesperson". So, according to what I understand from your explanation the listing agent gets 3 parts and the "assistant/helper" gets one part. Have I understood correctly? I have no issue if the listing agent, in this case the Broker, gets 'all 4 commissions'.
But, I am not at all comfortable that someone is trying sneakily to be my "buyer's agent" when I have not chosen her. From whatever I have dealt with her till now, I feel she is a lousy agent and I would never "hire" her. The main reason why I avoid a buyer's agent is they are simply another bottleneck in the whole process. I am comfortable to do all the negotiating, getting a mortgage, inspections, attorney and all that is needed to do to get the deal done. I just don't want someone else do this for me when I can easily do them myself. Of course, if the negotiations come to a crunch, then the selling broker would be more willing to contribute to close the deal if she does not have to split any of the commission with others.
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Do the criminal complaint at least. Even if it goes nowhere and the piece of shit gets dragged in for questioning, you can enjoy regaling it with stories about how you are going to keep refiling the complaint for the rest of your life until they are in jail having their asshole ripped out by multiple rapes and mutilations by neonazi serial killers.
End every conversation with the phrase, "I know you are of satan, and I will end my time on earth dragging you to hell with me in the name of Jesus Christ! Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!" preferably while holding onto its ears and staring into its face from about 2 inches away.
Remember. It's a Realtor®. Subhuman. Dedicated to financial doom of everyone it meets. Hungry for ill-gotten gain. In short, a satanic agent involved in most every home sale in the US. Howl in its face and let it know JUSTICE is on its way.
YMD says
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Bronx, NY
Ok so what the FUCK did this lady actually do for you. Meet you at a house (not even her listing) and open the door for you, and then throw a bunch of papers at you to sign? How the hell does that entitle her to a commission. I managed to do well with my first purchase, I am way in the black. But if I ever decide to go for something bigger, I am completely bypassing all realtors. It is absolutely unnecessary, I got my own mortgage, my own lawyer, I don't need someone to drive me around looking at houses. Print out a couple hundred flyers on cheap paper saying "I am interested in buying your house" contact me at xxx-xxxx, This is not a scam, I am just not interested in dealing with realtors" and stuff them in the mailbox of houses you think you might like. Look for FSBO on craigslist. Look for short sales and forclosures. 6% on a 500k home is 30 grand. Thats a nice return for a small amount of work.
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San Antonio, TX
jvolstad's website
On many of the open houses, the agent on duty is usually a buyers agent trying to snag a fish.
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There's got to be an easy way to find a reason to break a Realtor® contract and still remain immune from civil suit.
Everything out of their mouths is a lie: fraud by misrepresentation.
The stuff they don't tell you: fraud by omissive communication.
Maybe Pat.Net should develop a white paper on screwing Realtor®s out of their commission.
Could be as simple as filing a criminal complaint before closing and settling the case by having the Realtor® surrender its commission to a charity.
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Murrieta, CA
I would like more help with this exact issue. How to buy from a broker with out using a buyers agent.
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Los Angeles, CA
There is no scam here (other than business as usual in RE)
The 'Broker -Associate' is someone who has a broker license BUT attaches to a broker who has the $$$ to pay the office rent and they split commission with the office owner.
So whoever is the 'head broker' will get a split of each of the ladies u talked to. Only 3 splits here it sounds like. (actually there are four the the head broker gets half of each of the underlings). If the one lady represented both sides the same head broker would make the same $ - thus he instructs them to structure deal in this manner as 2 agents avoids a dual agency lawsuit (but he gets same $ as dual agency, but not his underlings - they get half of a full 'double dip').
Think of it like vampires - the leader of the coven gets to drink from each kill his underlings make. So these two ladies are drinking your blood and he gets TWO huge sips from your neck. (nice analogy! I have outdone myself! lol)
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Everything is negotiable !
My understanding is that in a normal realty transaction - you have a buyer with an agent broker and a seller with agent + broker. The sheep pay 1.5 percent to each of the vampires for a total of 6 percent - the seller pays 3 percent to his vampires and the buyer pays 3 percent to his vampires.
You have no vampires on your side - why would you add them ? What the seller is going to pay for his vampires is his OWN problem - only becomes yours if the seller lets it affect his price.
You tell the sellers vampires that you have a lawyer who will handle your side of the closing. Personally would make an offer inclusive of all closing costs - then there are no surprises when it comes to sign the papers.
There is no reason that selling a house should be any different than selling a car. If it is, then find a different house to buy.
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I will freely admit that I know almost nothing about buying a house (from what I said just above), other than I have a plile of money waiting for prices to come down to more reasonable levels - so don't take what I wrote above as advice, just as speculation about how I would handle the situation you find yourself in.
I never understood the whole 6 percent commission scam thing but who cares - bottom line you have the money, they can either bend or you can walk. Basic sales negotiation, get up from the table and start to walk away and things change fast if the seller if really interested in selling and not just jacking up their ego.
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San Francisco, CA
woppa says
I am seriously considering doing this. Would love some ideas for what else to put on such a flyer.
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San Francisco, CA
Katy Perry says
Starting a thread on pat.net, ok?
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Listing Agents are usually the more experienced/successful members of the firm. The Agent doing the Open House is trying to meet potential Clients by doing a service for free. Consider how many of these Open Houses a new Agent does, and the unneccessary scorn heaped upon them...
Bottom line; it's just somebody trying to make a living. Probably because their old job disappeared
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You have heard a lot of vitriol from a lot of angry people which isn't going to help you buy the house. Here's my take. The listing agent is clearly not greedy because she would have tried to do the deal herself if she was. Most likely she doesn't do dual agency. The agent she sent was getting you to sign an agency disclosure, which is required. If you don't sign the agent would have to swear before a notary that it was given to you. That form allows for different types of agency and in your case the common assumption is that she is representing you, the fact that both agents work for the same broker is very common but is an issue legally because technically the broker is the agent. If the listing agent will not take you as a client (and there are many that won't) you will need an agent on your side to complete the deal. You are best served by letting them be a "buyers agent" because they then have a fiduciary responsibility to you and you have recourse. You should ask the listing agent if she will allow you to be a customer, in which case ther is no dual agency and she has no fiduciary responsibility to you other than to act honestly. Hope this helps.
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Boise, ID
Norbecker's website
Since you do have an interest in that specific house why not make a "take it or leave it" offer. Use any agent you want to make the offer with the understanding that if it is not accepted you will not increase your offer but continue on with your search. Just make sure the agent who submits your offer is only acting as your agent for that specific house.
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Baltimore, MD
joshuatrio says
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Baltimore, MD
Norbecker says
Another good strategy. Make a lowball offer and see what happens. If they don't accept it, walk away.
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Las Vegas, NV
LASVEGASWINNER's website
WHY not lower your offer by 3% and see how the listing agent and the assistant come unglued. The only way they make any money is to get the seller to accept the offer.
DAVID COOPER -Las Vegas
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Saint George, UT
elliemae's website
a lot of people think that they need a realtor and pay for them. you can buy a house without one. You can sell a house without one. They don't do shit and collect a commission.
The only thing that realtors used to have that we didn't was the mls. we now have the interwebs, and like printing presses and kodak, they're no longer needed.
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47 male
Lafayette, CA
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They try this on me all the time, but I doubt it's ever with the knowledge and consent of the listing agent. It's probably an office rule that encourages the split.
That being said, I've never seen a situation when dealing directly with the listing agent where he/she didn't salivate with anticipation over double-dipping on the fees.
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Is the commission calculated on top of the negotiated / offer price of the house or is it already included in the negotiated offer price? If it is included then how the money is divided up shouldn't be a concern for the buyer. The offers price should have taken into consideration that you dont want a buyers agent.
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If you can find a friendly (buyers) agent, you can make a deal with them that you will do all the work, but they will 'represent' you at the deal . They get the buyers agent 3% and split it with you. I was able to do that in the late 90s.
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Added to above. I think there was some finagling with the Broker on my buyers agent side, but I've since forgotten the details.
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Beverly Hills, CA
Lets back up for some definitions shall we? I submit there is no such thing as a "buyers" agent. Lets look at this example. You visit a car lot to buy a car. Immediately you will be met by eager advocates of BUY NOW! If your son loves baseball the salesman will have a "son who ALSO loves baseball" - Isn't that special? But we expect that from car salesmen because that's what they do. You may end up in a small cubicle with your spouse while this salesman "fights for you" "against" the Sales Manager in the "tower". It's the old "good cop - bad cop" game. If they are successful, you just overpaid on that car you just bought and they both go out to celebrate with beers: "One more sucker in the barrel"
How is this any different than real estate sales? The so-called "Buyers agent" is OBLIGATED BY THE LISTING CONTRACT to "negotiate" FOR THE LISTING AGENT. The "buyers" agent may say she "represents" the buyer, but she only REALLY represents: "A" herself and "B" the listing agent. The buyer is left to pay for this conspiracy. The "Listing agent" in turn is LEGALLY required to represent the seller....unless the listing agent wants to buy the property. In that case they only "represent" THEMSELVES. So there you have it. You have THREE against one: The seller, the listing agent and the "buyers" agent...all in a club and THE BUYER IS NOT INVITED. The irony in this scam is that the agent fees are usually paid for by the BUYER (last fool). Ask yourself WHO BRINGS MONEY to the settlement table? The seller? Not usually: The seller wants to exchange their house for money---it could be cash or cash from your mortgage company. The transaction requires the CREDIT and ability to pay of the BUYER to encourage the mortgage company to fund the loan.
Buyers agent = Listing agent (with the exception of their fees).
BOTTOM LINE: From the perspective of the "Listing" agent -- she LOSES 1/2 the sales commission when there is a "Buyers agent".
WHEN a so-called "Buyers" agent detects am obvious lie or even fraud by the listing agent, will she report the illegal activity to the DRE or local Association --? 99.9% of the time NO WAY. The reason is that she is really not the BUYERS AGENT---this "title" exists only in the imagination of the buyer!
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Beverly Hills, CA
"...Think of it like vampires - the leader of the coven gets to drink from each kill his underlings make. So these two ladies are drinking your blood and he gets TWO huge sips from your neck....." YES! I like this better than the vampire squid banks sucking blood through it's blood-funnel...!
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I'm a licensed broker in california. If you're buying a short sale or REO then it makes sense to represent yourself since the bank will most likely cut the listing agents commission since they only represented the seller and not the buyer.
On the other hand, if you are dealing with a normal sale, the listing agent will get the full 6% (or whatever comission he/she agreed to with the seller). If you are in this situation, my advice would be to either ad an addendum to your offer indicating that it is contingent to the listing agent accepting only have the comission he/she agreed to with the seller or hire one of those B.S. agents from redfin or zip realty that refund you part of their comission.
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Oh and one more thing.... the agent that showed you the house is not entitled to any commission since she did not sign a contract stating that she will represent you. Here is some good reading on the subject matter
http://homebuying.about.com/od/realestateagents/qt/Procuringcause.htm
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also, agents are required to show the seller all offers. Make sure to follow up with the seller directly to see if they have seen your offer. Since you have bad blood with the listing agent, she might try to hide your offer from the seller.
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Belmont, CA
iwog says
You know the feeling when you see it, you get the same feeling when you raise the rents.
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No reason to get upset over this. The listing agent did you a favor by picking a friend to represent you, which means you're much more likely to get the house. Call your new agent, apologize and continue with the deal, if you're getting a good price, that is.
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Middle Island, NY
One reason I wanted to go without a "buyer's" agent is to get the seller's agent work to make the deal so that she can get "double" the commission. But, because of this lady trying to sneak in as my "buyer's agent", I guess I have created bad blood and possibly caused my offer not presented well. The seller has refused to counter my offer. This same sneaky agent gave me the news. When I asked to give me their comps so I can see if they are reasonable and possibly up my offer, she said as I have not hired her it is up to me to put in another offer or not. When I insisted that she send me the comps she sent comps over a year old and none of them are the similar style as the house I am interested in. (I am interested in a Farm ranch while all her comps were colonials). I had used recent sales of 2 Farm ranches which she had not considered at all. I had explained my offer in a letter to the seller. I am now doubting if it was presented to the seller. I have written to the listing agent to send me proper comps and not involve this lady in this transaction if I were to go forward with this house. Depending on the listing agent's response, I might contact the seller directly.
iwog says
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housingcasino4865 says
Whoa! Apologize to a realtor? I am sure AF Tony Manero has to something about this.
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a) Often the listing agent is not allowed to double-end a sale (or they avoid it so as to not offend the seller), so they will pair you up with someone they know, who then might return the favor on a future sale. This is second best to going direct.
b) I don't see how this lady sneaked in as your agent if it was the listing agent who had her show you the house.
c) If the seller refuses to counter your offer, there's nothing anyone can do about that.
d) As far as comps go, you shouldn't rely on an agent, you can find that out yourself in a few minutes. Redfin.com goes back three years.
e) Sadly, some agents will represent you only to tie your hands/obfuscate the deal so you don't end up getting the house because they have a hidden straw buyer. They might suggest a low-ball price and lead you to believe it will be accepted so you don't "up" your offer. Then at the last minute, someone else comes dashing in (the straw buyer) with a better offer and the bank instantly accepts. In this case it could be the listing agent or a friend (same difference). Some houses are listed well below comps to create this scenario.
f) Some agents just want to pick your brain and use you as a price discovery mechanism. Once all offers are in, they call their investor/friend and say, you want this house for $500 above highest offer?
g) With F in mind, do consider this: try to guesstimate when the bank will stop accepting offers and Up yours at the last minute. This can raise red flags on the bank side (reo/shortsale) if the listing agent/straw buyer duo resubmit right after you.
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Bingo. Read about this all the time but don't remember any indictments for it. You read any stories about this scam yielding convictions against Realtors®?
housingcasino4865 says
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Boise, ID
Norbecker's website
Do not become emotionally attached to ONE house. I know this is easier said then done but you need to remember this is a financial decision. There will be other houses and maybe even a better one at a lower price. Next.