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Why Some Countries Go Bust

By golfplan18   Follow   Tue, 13 Mar 2012, 8:57am   1,384 views   6 comments
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/magazine/why-countries-go-bust.html?_r=1

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1. tts Follow Befriend 2 threads 470 comments

   1   3:49am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   orbitron says And what about the other 50% that are stealing from me (Americans that pay 0 income tax, public unions, federal government, etc)? These people steal $30k+ from me every year so that they can have things for free and retire young with fat pensions. They aren't stealing from you. They may not pay a federal income tax but they still pay FICA, gas taxes, sales tax, assorted phone/internet/cable taxes, etc. The other side of the coin that you're not considering too is that the middle class has been shrinking for a while and as a result of this a large number of people in the US have wages so low now that they fall into the poverty brackets. Which is why they don't pay federal income tax or effectively don't pay any due to year end refunds. orbitron says On a day to day basis, I'm much more hurt by the government than by Walmart or GE or even Goldman Sachs. Then you don't understand just how much you're being harmed by these mega corps corrupting regulators and influencing the passage of bills. At the very least billions and billions of potential tax revenue is being diverted into the top 1-.1%'s pockets instead of reducing deficit spending. Which is something which you, me, and your kids will be taxed to pay for to make up the difference at a later date. Hell, Patrick posted a chart on the front page showing that more money has been spent on the bailouts then all the wars combined. How can you see something like that and still think people in the poverty tax brackets are doing you more harm then GS, GE, Wallmart, ?

2. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

   2   7:41am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   tts says Hell, Patrick posted a chart on the front page showing that more money has been spent on the bailouts then all the wars combined. God bless America.

3. tts Follow Befriend 2 threads 470 comments

   3   2:59am Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   orbitron says As much as I despise Goldman Sachs, they do not DIRECTLY steal $50k a year from me. How exactly are the poor stealing ~$50k a year from you? Directly no less? I sure hope you're not going to argue that its due to welfare, UI, or some other such nonsense because that is factually incorrect. The govt. spending money on such things (particularly programs like UI which people pay into BTW) are actually some of the biggest bang for the buck positive economic programs that exist. orbitron says Americans voted FOR having a federal reserve bank and for massive government power over everything. I hope you're using hyperbole when you say "government power over everything" because not only did people NOT vote for that it is also factually untrue. Especially when you consider that the government has been _deregulating_ heavily since at the least the Regan years. That is one of the main reasons why the credit bubble and housing bubbles formed in the first place, key pieces of regulation were cut (ie. Glass-Stegall). orbitron says Every time we give the government more power to "solve" a new problem, we invite the barbarians to game the political system and that's what leads to collapse as the original article alludes to. So if the government has power, and others (ie. big business) come a long and corrupt said government, then its all the governments' fault? This doesn't seem logical at all. If a government official is taking bribes/favors to vote a certain way or whatever then that is definitely a problem and they need to go, but the same is true of the people in business who are giving the bribes/favors. It very clearly takes 2 to tango in that game!! How can you reasonably try to ignore or downplay that? I would point out too that there have countries with small/weak governments that have gotten corrupted just as much as big/strong governments. Small/weak governments might make for nice talking points but they don't work in the real world, history has already spoken on this subject (ie. Articles of Confederation). orbitron says It must be capitalism that is bringing down Greece. If you had said crony-capitalism you might have been correct instead of just sarcastic. orbitron says Ultimately all people who want things for free are stealing it from people who actually produce things. Who is stealing what from who and how are they doing it exactly? Are you talking about the rich? The poor? Welfare recipients? Illegal immigrants? Don't just hand wave frantically or copy/paste talking points, give some specifics with information to back that up so we can actually have something to talk about productively.

4. zzyzzx Follow Befriend (9) 434 threads 4,244 comments Baltimore, MD

   4   11:47am Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   orbitron says And what about the other 50% that are stealing from me (Americans that pay 0 income tax, public unions, federal government, etc)? These people steal $30k+ from me every year so that they can have things for free and retire young with fat pensions. I also think it's because of these people that we are going bankrupt. Parents need to pay their fair share of taxes.

5. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

   5   11:47am Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   tts says Who is stealing what from who and how are they doing it exactly? Are you talking about the rich? The poor? Welfare recipients? Illegal immigrants? All of the above? Although many (most?) illegal immigrants work extremely hard for very little money.

6. tts Follow Befriend 2 threads 470 comments

   6   6:31pm Fri 16 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   wthrfrk80 says tts says Who is stealing what from who and how are they doing it exactly? Are you talking about the rich? The poor? Welfare recipients? Illegal immigrants? All of the above? Although many (most?) illegal immigrants work extremely hard for very little money. Well given the wealth disparity as well as the declining or stagnating wages despite working harder and harder over the years I couldn't really agree with you that the poor or those on welfare are stealing in any way shape or form. Illegal immigrants, by and large, aren't thieves either and as you note they do work hard for very little money but I'd also add they still pay sales tax, gas tax, etc. at a minimum. I don't really have too much of a problem with illegal immigrants, sure I wish they'd have gone about things in the legal fashion to get here, but I also understand that is incredibly difficult and time consuming to say the least. I would argue that its the rich, the super rich in particular that are the ones doing the major and truly significant theft, and they essentially function as old school renteirs who take wealth out of the economy as a whole rather than businessmen who would add value to the economy on the whole.