"The Liberals"


By Patrick   Follow   Tue, 13 Mar 2012, 9:45pm   13,226 views   117 comments
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There is a consistent pattern on AM radio and online forums of blaming "the liberals" for pretty much everything, even contradictory things, and never giving them credit for doing anything right.

Hate for "liberals" goes right back to elementary school. It's actually the exact same hate that the kids in the back of the class, who didn't understand the material, got bad grades, and couldn't spell, had for the kids in the front of the class, who did understand the material, got good grades, and could spell. Teacher smiled at those kids in the front, but didn't smile at the kids in the back.

It's also the story of Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel for being better loved by God, making a better sacrifice, yada yada. And it's the story of Joseph being thrown into the well, then sold into slavery by his brothers, because his father Jacob loved him best.

I'm trying to say that this hate for "the liberals" is old. Very very old. It's not actually about liberals at all. It's about feeling left behind, unwanted, inferior.

It's at the forefront of politics now because middle and lower-middle class white men, who used to be assured of at least not being on the bottom, now find themselves unemployed, as the 0.1% ships their jobs to China. And maybe they're foreclosed on now too (again by the 0.1%), bankrupted by ridiculous medical bills (again by the 0.1%). Then they look upward, and to top it all off, the president is black.

The kids who were in the front of the class, who could spell, and who the teacher smiled at, those kids are doing pretty well. Their jobs weren't outsourced.

And so the frustrated white middle-American male says lots of angry and not-quite-coherent things on the radio and on forums, like this:

Obama still sucks ass...

From http://patrick.net/forum/?p=1210015

You want to be sympathetic to them because you know about their frustrations, but they make themselves so ugly and unlikable that it's just not possible.

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  1. Patrick


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    38   2:21pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Pretty sure I never deleted anything by you.

  2. TPB


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    39   2:29pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)  

    Well you have, and to say or to pretend I'm just coming out of blue with an Objection to Obama is an insult to all that is decent and good. I expect that out of Iwog, but not you. I've been here a while I didn't just ride in on the Bearmarket express you know?

  3. Nomograph


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    40   5:27pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (5)   Dislike  

    All his reasons were contained in the imaginary deleted posts.

  4. Bap33


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    41   8:17pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)  

    Patrick says

    I'm trying to say that this hate for "the liberals" is old. Very very old. It's not actually about liberals at all. It's about feeling left behind, unwanted, inferior.

    on the part of the liberals

  5. thomas.wong1986


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    42   8:43pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (3)  

    bgamall4 says

    thomas.wong1986 says
    This anecdote taken from facebook gives an analogy of economics through redistribution, enjoy…

    Wong, redistribution is going from the bottom to the top, not the other way around. http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2908

    Who are these 1% ?.. people like you harp its all Bankers and Wall Street, which is not the case...

    If it hasnt occured to you yet... Yes.. Modanna is a 1%, as is Michael Jordon, Woody Allen and like many others in the Music, Hollywood, Sports there was a huge boom since the early 80s. Yes, it flowed from the bottom to the top...

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/12/28/who-actually-are-the-one-percent/

    "The first thing that leaps out is that it isn’t actually Wall Street. Financial professions amount to 14% of the top one percent, up from 8% in 1979 (rounded numbers). Yes, a rise, but most certainly not the vast majority that one might expect given the vituperation that is aimed at Wall Street and its denizens."

  6. thomas.wong1986


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    43   8:55pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (3)  

    Patrick says

    than people who do no work but rake in millions or billions from unearned income (15%)?

    You mean "capital gains" .. of course you are ignoring potential "capital losses".. therefore why arnt you also including "unearned income losses".

    So how are you taxing "unearned income losses" ?

  7. thomas.wong1986


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    44   8:58pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    thunderlips11 says

    The solution to "Too Big to Fail" is anti-trust. That way, even if several companies fail in a crucial industry, there are still surviving, healthy companies to pick up the slack

    You get a bonus point! At some point trying to manage and be responsible for the biggest and massive organization in any given industry becomes totally unmanagable and prone to failure. But this can be fixed with spin offs. Certainly many M&As do not work out over time.

  8. Vicente


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    45   9:29pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (4)   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    Anyone else have more insight into why the AM radio crowd is all hate and no specific reason?

    Got it in one.

    You don't NEED a further insight.

    AM political talk radio is a conduit to provide a daily dose of hate & fear. Reptilian brain feels hate & fear strongly. It's exciting, it's arousing.

    Add a confirmation bias onto that. Have a voice screeching in your ear, about hate/fear on a frequent basis. Telling you that you are RIGHT to hate & fear, and reminding you what you need is to keep listening so we can reinforce that.... here let's take this little burning ember inside you, let's stoke that into a FIRE we can all keep warm with.....no harm done feeding our rage right?

    OK I would add a "conceit" glaze on the cake. The conceit that a drug-user talking into a microphone is a productive citizen. The conceit that the flunky listening in during working hours at their desk is in fact themselves a True American Patriot who is best at judging the rightness of everyone else in the country. The talk radio host and listeners spend a lot of time reminding each other how smart & RIGHT everyone in this clique is.

    Yes, that's political talk radio in a nutshell. Punctuated by commercials for Dentu-Creme of course.

    I had an ex-boss who had talk-radio blaring in her office all the work day. If I was foolish enough to stop & chat I would get an earful about the latest outrage. I was SO glad when I left that job, never to have to listen to that bile again.

  9. Dan8267


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    46   10:06pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (4)   Dislike (1)  

    Science has proven that social conservatives are less intelligent and more fearful than social liberals and that the difference is genetic and is observable in the brain structure. Remember the OMG! Shrek is dead! thread, particularly this post, relevant section copied below:

    This thread started out being about Shrek and ended up demonstrating the fundamental differences between the left and right wings. Now I didn't really want to bring out the big guns, because doing so is probably going to upset some people, but I see no way to resolve this thread other than to be painfully honest. [Yes, until now, I've been going easy on the ultra-cons.]

    The fundamental difference between the left-wing and the far-right-wing (and no, I don't including all conservatives in that, just the extreme ones) is that the left-wing uses logic, facts, and empirical verification to determine whether or not something works, whereas the far-right-wing uses faith, emotions, and cultural beliefs. One side uses science, the other uses tradition. Science advances and constantly refines itself as it is a self-correcting mechanism. Tradition does not do either.

    And although none of us wants to admit this, the fundamental difference is due to biological differences between the ultra-right-wing and the rest of humanity. You see, the ultra-right-wingers have a different brain than the rest of us. This has been scientifically proven.

    MRI study suggests liberal brains understand complexity, conservative minds are associated with anxiety and fear:

    Using data from MRI scans, researchers at the University College London found that self-described liberals have a larger anterior cingulate cortex–a gray matter of the brain associated with understanding complexity. Meanwhile, self-described conservatives are more likely to have a larger amygdala, an almond-shaped area that is associated with fear and anxiety.

    Study: Conservatives have larger ‘fear center’ in brain:

    A study at University College London in the UK has found that conservatives' brains have larger amygdalas than the brains of liberals. Amygdalas are responsible for fear and other "primitive" emotions. At the same time, conservatives' brains were also found to have a smaller anterior cingulate -- the part of the brain responsible for courage and optimism.

    If the study is confirmed, it could give us the first medical explanation for why conservatives tend to be more receptive to threats of terrorism, for example, than liberals. And it may help to explain why conservatives like to plan based on the worst-case scenario, while liberals tend towards rosier outlooks.

    In summary, ultra-right-wingers are dumb cowards. There is no politically correct way to express this truth. We can explain why this is so, and we can try to help those people get over this defect, but only if those people want our help.

    It makes sense that some people with have larger fear centers. It was an evolutionary advantage back in the Stone Age. It kept people from being eaten by lions and bitten by poisonous snakes. But we don't live in the Stone Age anymore. Those disproportional instinctive fears are now manifested as irrational fears about terrorism, Mexicans, gays, and other such conservative issues.

    Having fear is a good thing. It's nature's way of making sure you don't do something stupid that gets you killed. However, in the modern world, a person must use frontal lobe thinking to distinguish rational fears from irrational ones. The fact is you are far more likely to be killed in an automobile accident than by a terrorist. You should fear Toyota more than Al Qaeda. But you don't because your Cro-Magnon 1.0 brain was evolved to deal with hunter-gather living and hostile neighboring tribes rather than the reality of modern living.

    The good news is that you can override your base instincts with higher-level thinking. The bad news is that you have to want to.

    See original post for links.

  10. Dan8267


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    47   10:08pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The links to previous thread comments are not quite working since the introduction of paging in long threads.

  11. Dan8267


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    48   10:15pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (4)   Dislike  

    Vicente says

    AM political talk radio is a conduit to provide a daily dose of hate & fear. Reptilian brain feels hate & fear strongly. It's exciting, it's arousing.

    Carl Sagan described it best in Cosmos.

    Seat of aggression (war), ritual (religion), territoriality (nationalism), and social hierarchies (racism). Exactly the things that appeal to the social conservative.

  12. thomas.wong1986


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    49   10:47pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (3)  

    Dan8267 says

    Science has proven that social conservatives are less intelligent and more fearful than social liberals and that the difference is genetic and is observable in the brain structure.

    you mean " liberals being more efficient at managing conflicting information, while conservatives may be more efficient at recognizing threats. "

    http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/08/liberal-vs-conservative-does-the-difference-lie-in-the-brain/

    As such conservatives run organizations better than liberals, since they understand risk/return trade off, treats, risk appetite and tolerance. This is all basic stuff regarding strategic planning and organizational managment.

    Liberals: Such drama queens with their reality distortion field. Its like trying to talk to your ex-wife.

  13. marcus


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    50   10:51pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (4)   Dislike  

    A more reasonable and less confrontational and polarizing look at the differences between conservatives and liberals.

    The thing is these days it's become a my team against your team, and the ideas of conservative and liberal are a little bit lost. Today's right wingers are radical in their anti government low taxes for the rich dogma, and they are really anything but conservative.

    And big money and propaganda play a role, in bringing groups in to the republican tent that the owners wouldn't even want in there if they thought they could win elections without them.

  14. nw888


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    51   11:36pm Wed 14 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    What if the winners cheated? Should they still win?

    What if you actually work harder and do pretty well? Should you pay a higher tax rate (35%) than people who do no work but rake in millions or billions from unearned income (15%)?

    I'm not talking about cheaters. Cheaters will always be losers in my book.

    As for taxes, no way. They should pay the same rate.

  15. Dan8267


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    52   12:03am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    thomas.wong1986 says

    you mean " liberals being more efficient at managing conflicting information, while conservatives may be more efficient at recognizing threats. "

    Nope, that's not what I mean. Social conservatives completely freak out about imaginary or improbable threats while ignoring urgent ones. For example,

    The fact is you are far more likely to be killed in an automobile accident than by a terrorist. You should fear Toyota more than Al Qaeda.

    Another example, coal producing power plants are literally poisoning all the seafood in the world with methylmercury. That and other pollution can and will kill you. It won't do it in one dose, but it all adds up and shortens your lifespan. Yet, social conservatives completely ignore these real threats that have an actual impact on their lives.

    Put simply, social conservatives do not pay attention to rational fears but obsess over irrational ones. The calculate risks incorrectly because they are still using the algorithm evolved for the stone age.

    thomas.wong1986 says

    As such conservatives run organizations better than liberals, since they understand risk/return trade off, treats, risk appetite and tolerance.

    You are confusing social conservatives with fiscal conservatives. They are entirely different beasts. The fiscal conservative banker, stock broker, CEO is about as socially conservative as Howard Stern. They drink, womanize, are pro-abortion, pro-contraceptive, and think Jesus is a commie.

    The social conservative Jesus preacher doesn't run fortune 500 companies.

    thomas.wong1986 says

    Liberals: Such drama queens with their reality distortion field. Its like trying to talk to your ex-wife.

    I guess that depends on your definition of liberal.

    There's nothing dramatic or distorted about upholding Constitutional rights including the equal protection clause which demands that all people are equal under law, even gays for want to marry. Of course, there are whiners on the left, but that has nothing to do with valuing liberty and civil rights.

  16. thomas.wong1986


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    53   12:22am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    The calculate risks incorrectly because they are still using the algorithm evolved for the stone age.

    Thats a nice scientific rational argument.. certainly lacks in emotions.

  17. AlexG


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    54   2:31am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    I don't listen to AM radio, so no comment there, but do know a few white middle class males, and these guys don't hate liberals because of anything like what Patrick mentioned above. I'm actually surprised at his sentiment, because I'd expect to hear something like this from an "occupy crowd". I think a lot of people upset because they know they are being robbed, and feel powerless to do anything about that. They are not being robbed by "1 percent", but rather by Counterfeiters (endorsed by liberals), and consequently they do not like Conterfeiter-in-Chief; I don't think him being black has anything to do with anything, he could be purple in polka-dots and I'd feel exactly the same way.

  18. tts


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    55   2:43am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (5)   Dislike  

    TPB says

    The Liberals are under fire because the shallowly transparent manner they've been conducting them selves

    Obama and pretty much all the Dems aren't liberals. Yea they're speeches _sound_ liberal and all but for the most part their actual policies are on par with the Republicans, who aren't really conservatives either BTW. Both parties are just plain corrupt and essentially work to favor the rich at the expense of the non rich.

    Obamacare (aka PPACA) for instance is actually very nearly the exact same plan put forth by Gingrich in the 90's when the Clintons were trying to do healthcare reform. I'm not sure of the details of who exactly wrote it last time around in the 90's but this time the law was written by the private healthcare industry, mostly behind closed doors no less. In either case it does nearly nothing to help the average person or to keep healthcare costs down. Really it was just a massive giveaway to the healthcare industry at the expense of the public.

    Anyways, point is don't talk about Liberals, or LIEbrals, or socialism, or leftism, etc. when referring to the democrats or Obama because you're just being played for a fool by these assholes who are interested in pushing people into thinking in terms of simplistic ideologies and "teams" rather than issues and policy.

  19. ArtimusMaxtor


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    56   4:00am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patricks just plain intelligent. So. The fault. The Christian book points out your not supposed to find. Evil Suspicions your not supposed to have by the same book. Innocent as doves. Clever as serpents. Which will do someone about as much good as the former examples. Those religous concepts may be gotten from parents and peers and you may not even realize it.

    Some people have a great deal of perception. Some people understand and conceptualize really well.

    Men are predatory by fucking nature. The innocence the Bible and the other books try to make the world and you into something that just is not fucking possible.

    SO TRUST IS NOT AN OPTION. TRUSTING TOTAL STRANGERS IS REALLY STUPID.

    The earth permits certain things like animals killing one another. The earth permits you to do the same thing. The earth does not permit you to kill other people. Not "God" but the earth. Put on the brakes. Scratch your heads. See. Of course you don't. Your consumed with the fact that as a rule everyday killing other people that dosen't happen. Ergo the bible is true. Some never stop to consider the fact that before that book was "written". That men looked at one another and said hey we are killing animals. Why aren't we killing EACH OTHER as a rule. Well DUH one idiot might have said. It must be "God". That one fact people don't kill each other for food. Will take you on a really nice space adventure. I guarantee you.

    A certain group is more predatory. Than any other group on earth. Its a fault. A bad one. They are lacking certain things. They have to be careful. Because humans are by the earth once again. Disgusted with that kind of behavior. The only thing lacking is they don't eat you. Thank "Morris". They just take your fucking stuff and your food after killing you. Thats how they live as "man killer" predators. Very clever ones at that. Your outrage is at said predatory group. As you gingerly try to get at them. Gingerly because you percieve they are "predatory killers". Thats fairly clear to some. They survive with their said cleverness. Other groups may be theives. Once again lacking that run with the "killers".

    Well adjusted people. Don't kill others for what they want. Some may encourage. Some may discourage depending on what they want. Some even like enslaving people with debt and dependancy. They to may run with the theives and the "killers". That being said. They are warped people living amoung us people that are very well adjusted and in tune with the earth. Its not you thats fucked up. Your just trying to come to terms with what the deprived of certain things don't have.

    "Native people" scratch their heads and wonder about invasion idiots continually. Yes you do defend yourself they will say. But when your using "defense" as an excuse for invasion continually. It becomes just a little suspicious. Victims of the predator by invasion get very little say so. That is always the case with them and the thief. They are very plural amoung people in their doings. So everyone doesn't come after them.

    Its simple stuff. Your innocence and your gullibility and trust are the only things stopping you from having a really nice life. Where else do we go is the problem. People that kill, steal etc. Are not as "bright" as you think, once you understand. That they are "maladjusted".

    If you take a deal like this one. The numbers are very, very plain. They speak for themselves. You are highly "gullible". I can talk until I can talk no more and if you don't see that example. You have totally "failed" yourself. You have been "swindeled" in your senses. You will be someones fool. Probably for the rest of your life.

    This is also an example of preditory action. On the part of people that like to enslave people by debt. Oh wait enslave by debt. Isn't that biblical? Nope its not. Just like killing which people that are normal do not engage in. Which is just simply the earth at work. Taking by "debt". Debt is something that is simply by the earth also. You owe someone by something that is taken from the earth. "That now belongs to someone else". It deals with such. Because that given to that person of the earth. Is still a "part" of the earth.

    Thats where the "thieves" of the earth enter in. They are very clever at stealing and hiding of such. Its something they can't get away with forever of course. Here in is the lesson.

    Artimus 7:20 Don't look skyward. There is nothing there. Coal you can burn to keep you warm and to cook with. Trees make things grow and you too. With iron you can dig and plant. These things have real physical properties. "Scientists" examine them continually. Only "look up" to see if a rock is going to fall on you. The earth keeps you alive and happy.

  20. jhall


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    57   6:26am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (5)   Dislike  

    I'm with you, Patrick. Don't like liberals? Send back your Social Security check and turn down Medicare when you turn 65.

    We can all thank Lyndon Johnson for the 1964 civili rights act. We haven't had a real liberal in office since Jimmy Carter, who was not a great president, but his heart was in the right place, with those who needed a hand to help themselves up. We've all needed help at some point.

    I call them pissed-off white guys (POWGs), and they're everywhere. Usually in giant SUV's, running everyone down else to get ahead. I can only imagine the hatred spewing out of their speakers as they huff and puff about how things should be.

    My advice to the POWGs? Turn off the radio and look at what's happening outside your vehicle. People in this country are hurting, we are destroying the planet with our greed, and we are all in this together. Put down the hate and think about the next generation, brother.

  21. freak80


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    58   6:34am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Vicente says

    Yes, that's political talk radio in a nutshell. Punctuated by commercials for Dentu-Creme of course.

    Hilarious.

  22. freak80


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    59   6:39am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike  

    tts says

    Obama and pretty much all the Dems aren't liberals. Yea they're speeches _sound_ liberal and all but for the most part their actual policies are on par with the Republicans, who aren't really conservatives either BTW. Both parties are just plain corrupt and essentially work to favor the rich at the expense of the non rich.

    Well put. It's all bread-and-circuses for the masses.

  23. Taint Boil


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    60   6:40am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    Vicente says

    AM political talk radio is a conduit to provide a daily dose of hate & fear.........

    Spot on Vicente!!

    Sometimes I listen to Rush or Hannity for a laugh on the way home. EVERY time I say to myself “Who in the hell listens to this shit” Well the answer is of course people that are NOT like me. It’s really about the bottom line isn’t it? A person like me who can think for themselves is not really influenced by commercials etc……… so you end up with the K-Mart Republicans as your audience.

    I sent an e-mail once to a person making fun of Fox news bias (mostly some Out Foxed material) …….. Anyways there were like about a 100 foot notes citing proof, evidence and examples, etc. They said how do you know you are right (Fox bashing) I told them “Did you click on any of the links and read the material” “No” they said “I don’t know how to do that” Well Fox news is fair and balanced is all they repeated over and over and over.

    It looks like the MSM propaganda machine is well oiled and running better than ever.

    &feature=player_detailpage#t=2s

  24. ArtimusMaxtor


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    61   6:50am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Artimus 0:5 Only the "simple" believe. Philosophy is like "religion" to certain people. Its something else that can't be seen like "God". It resides with people that lack of certain things. Leaving them to believe that life and provision is a struggle with other men.

    Ancient "Greek" wrestlers.

    Life is not a struggle. Which is strange to many because when you dwell amoung people that live life as a struggle. You need to recognize it is not. That those things coal, iron etc. Provide you with things. That are NOT recognized by those that struggle through life because they lack certain things. As something the helps. They only recognize that it is to be taken for whatever use they want. No matter how bad the implosion on themselves or others. Its not philosophy. Its physical matter on the earth. That provides, gives makes it possible for humans to enjoy and live a good life. Without struggle. Its a matter of food, shelter and enjoyment. That has not one fucking thing to do with human beings.

    Would I fault a person that lacks what it takes to be well adjusted human? I might. It leads to frustration of course and anger. However I do "recognize" the problem. It is very serious. That recognition on their part. That it is a problem. That they are not like everyone else on the earth. That their "action" is unlike most peoples. Is simply a matter of lack of whats physically something they "should" have and not any character fault.

    The inner ear is made of of several things including carbon. Some people understand what that does to "balance". Its very interesting and something that maybe you should try to "discover".

    Iron is a very aggressive substance. Think. Tanks, warplanes, bombs, bullets, guns, automobiles etc. It is something not "ment" to be used in these ways. Or "used" at all. Creating your very own disasters. That in of itself iron. When left alone provides many things for the earth and man. If thats not true. Take a look at everyday disaster - auto wrecks and deaths - shootings - "war" etc. See how many result from the use and the involvement in of iron. You would be wise to see that make a list its interesting.

    People live in forests. Which is really stupid. Your not the "tree" people. WTF can you grow in a forest. Not to mention the clearing of trees for land. The focus is on the "rivers" of course. Which carry off and deliver what the GD trees do for growing things, Including food. In "clear" areas. That makes "tree people" a really stupid, ignorant class of folks. Im Wald leben können is german for: "Lets live in the forest." Then they might ask: "How can we grow food?" Wir werden die Bäume hacken. Is german for: "We will chop down the trees." Of course you all understand what dummkopf means.

    "What do we do for water?." The farmer will glare at you and say you stupid fuck. They are called aquifers. Stuff does not grow in fucking trees. No farmer with a brain does it. People farmers or not, were ment to live in open areas. Its so much easier and there is so much more for you there.

    Then there is Unocal which was bought by Chevron. Many people in this forum would suggest immediate "brain surgery" for many Chevron executives. Several hunting parties were organized at one time or another to go after those people. A few were caught. Many don't know that its a fact. Some escaped. Now a quiz. Why would someone want to hunt down a Unocal executive? The desert of course does not provide the fun and joy many might think. "Lets have an 'Oil party'."

    You might want to pay attetion to that last statement "If you build it they will come". Don't be someones "useful idiot". A gift from "us" to you. Don't turn it down. There is nothing "wrong" with you. Just lack of information. It ain't rare. Just earth.

    Confucious say: Confucious is going to look really funny walking down the street with a Wal-mart up his ass.

    Once again its something of "lack of". Why single yourself out. Look at whats going on. Then think hey its not just me. In many ways the "lack of" causes trouble. Take the big picture. Its no cause for "wrath and human idignation". Things easily solved. The insert of vengence. For lack of and re-action of the earth (clearly demonstrated). Vengence isn't the problem. Its not nessesarly the solution. If you understand more or less its the re-action.

    So its not the "God of Israel" waiting to "hammer" you into the ground. Its the "hammer" waiting to "hammer" you into the ground. The reaction. Proper "application" made no problem then. What afore mentioned. What is needed. A happy life. May be easier for "all parties" concerned then they might think. Until then "hang in there".

  25. Auntiegrav


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    62   7:38am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    The biggest bone of contention is taxes, and how taxing people with a lot of money is somehow a personal insult to their ability to make money. The solution is to tax the money (sales taxes) instead of the person.

    Talk radio is entertainment, and as such, it has to sell shit. It's ALL about selling shit. The 6 o'clock news is selling cars, and they can't sell cars if they actually investigate and show us how our cars are really killing us more than all diseases combined, or how our cars are running out of gas, or how the very car dealers who are paying for the advertising (and political idiots who USED to be used car salesmen) are extorting money from us with crappy cars that have to be replaced, and if we don't replace them, they jack up the price of parts so we HAVE to buy a new car.
    Rush Limbaugh sells crap. I can't stand to visit my parents any more because they listen to those advertisements and then turn on Fox for hours every day when they should be outside doing useful stuff. Ever listen to a semi-insane 80yo Irish woman after she's been amped up on Rush? It ain't a pretty situation.
    I used to listen to Rush when I worked with my brother. Kinda fun at first, then it just turns to repetitive ranting and commercials.
    I don't think anyone can truly appreciate the propaganda unless they've lived without any TV for several years. When you do that, and then check into a hotel or turn on talk radio, you just feel dirty from all the slime gushing out.
    Bernays knew what he was doing. The public is now enslaved to their own desires: desires they don't even know they have.

  26. Auntiegrav


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    63   7:46am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    ArtimusMaxtor says

    Life is not a struggle. Which is strange to many because when you dwell amoung people that live life as a struggle. You need to recognize it is not. That those things coal, iron etc. Provide you with things. That are NOT recognized by those that struggle through life because they lack certain things

    Yes. When we consider that wealth accumulation is a means of denial of resources from those who need them in order to maintain the prices for those who don't need them, we start to see how the failure of liberals lies in their incompetence at doing what they attempt to do, and their ignorance of what they are REALLY doing (wealth distribution increases the overhead and creates a power niche for those who do the redistributing). The solution is to moderate the accumulation in the first place: allowing resources to be left alone as long as possible while people find their own ways to be useful without worshiping imaginary fantasies of cheap stuff being bestowed upon them from "on high". Real value comes from the bottom up. So does real social engineering, real sustainability, and real service. Humans have to learn to give more than they take from the future. Rant Radio and Politics is all about playing the "right now" lizard brain game of competition instead of cooperation for our offspring's future usefulness. It's about selling crap to people so they can believe they just bought something to make their life better than it was before they had that particular piece of expensive crap (the Bose radio, the Amish heater, the 'new' Ford F-150 to haul their broken down Harley around.) This isn't life, it's Consumption. They used to use that label for Tuberculosis. huh

  27. mdovell


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    64   7:48am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    I think we should at first break down social and economic issues.

    social conservatives really have no moral or ethical grounds of which to walk on. In attempting to extend their religious beliefs on others via government proxy it can be intimidating to some.

    In some arguments both sides can be right but the argument fails. With abortion I find Naomi Wolf's argument to be good. Just admit it is technically murder but on the same concept if it is made illegal would women die in underground ones or be forced to go to other countries (yes to both).

    On the same point the argument for gun control fails under the idea that somehow making something illegal makes it go away.

    I think that the left has really run out of gas because frankly from their own policies they destroyed much of their own base. Did free trade kill unions? Do government health care mandates erode any net gain from being in a union? Are environmental causes getting any attention at this point?

    Political parties I could say are like tents and while conservatives are more loose liberals have scattered. heck the occupy groups like the 1968 convention going on tour.

    I don't think we've had a liberal in the white house since nixon (clean air and water act, osha, endangered species act..came close to rationing gasoline). clinton had nafta, doma, don't ask don't tell, tanf reform etc. Carter deregulated the airline industry, trucking, rail, legalized home brewing of alcohol and provoked the soviet union to invade afghanistan.

  28. Vicente


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    65   8:52am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    marcus says

    A more reasonable and less confrontational and polarizing look at the differences between conservatives and liberals.

    Thanks for that, great stuff. I am only recently hearing about this TED stuff after seeing a Ramachandran one, so this is my 2nd one. Now I have to watch more.

  29. Dan8267


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    66   8:58am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    thomas.wong1986 says

    Dan8267 says

    The calculate risks incorrectly because they are still using the algorithm evolved for the stone age.

    Thats a nice scientific rational argument.. certainly lacks in emotions.

    1. There was no emotion in that statement, it was simply a concise summary of analysis you skipped over.

    2. The presence of emotion in an argument does not preclude the scientific validity of the argument. Jane Goodall cares about chimps, but that doesn't prevent her from writing good, scientific papers about their behavior. Science does not require apathy.

    3. You have failed to address any of the scientific studies I have linked to that support the point that social conservatives are more fearful, less rational, and incorrectly assess risk. This implies that you have no counter-argument. On the other hand, my position is supported by physical evidence, the brain itself.

    4. Finally, you failed to get the most important point. The purpose of acknowledging a weakness is to treat that weakness or deal with it so that it doesn't harm you. In this example, understanding that fear of terrorism is blow out of proportion and fear of ecological damage is understated, should motivate a person to re-evaluate what they want from their politicians. A strong anti-pollution policy will save far more years in your life than a strong anti-terrorism policy.

  30. Dan8267


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    67   9:07am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Auntiegrav says

    The biggest bone of contention is taxes, and how taxing people with a lot of money is somehow a personal insult to their ability to make money. The solution is to tax the money (sales taxes) instead of the person.

    There are problems with national sales taxes (aka value-added taxes). First, they tend to be regressive, disproportionally affecting the poor and lower-middle class. Second, their presence encourages black markets. Third, there is less justification for this taxation methods than others.

    Sales taxes, income taxes, social security taxes, and medicare taxes would all be unnecessary if all rent-seeking operations were performed by the state and the rent sent to the treasury to pay for all government services.

    We would leave in a tax-free society then. However, the so-called "fiscal conservatives" -- and I use that term loosely -- like CEOs, stock brokers, bankers, etc. would oppose such a system because they could not make any money in such a system, which is entirely the point.

    Rent-seeking is by definition the extraction of wealth from producers as oppose to the creation of wealth through one's own production. Rent from land, natural resources like oil, banking, etc. should be considered collective income and as such used to pay for government and public services and safety nets rather than being pilfered by a few individuals doing little to no work.

  31. Dan8267


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    68   9:34am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (4)   Dislike  

    mdovell says

    I don't think we've had a liberal in the white house since nixon

    The problems with the terms liberal and conservative is that they refer to an arbitrary collection of political positions. What constitutes the left-right divide in America doesn't in other countries. For example, the right is composed of poor, religious, working class people and godless, greedy, corporatist who have nothing in common but opposition to the other 67% of the population. Similarly, the left is composed of many conflicting political interests, which is why the left rarely gets things done.

    I find that it is better to divide the terms liberal and conservative into orthogonal vectors such as:

    1. Religious / Secular
    2. Charity only / Secular social safety nets.
    3. Outlaw abortions / Legalize abortions
    4. Culture enforcement / Social liberty
    5. Economic regulations / Deregulation
    6. Big military / Small military
    7. War to secure resources / War for defense only
    8. Anti-drug laws / Legalize drugs
    9. Environmental regulations / Deregulation
    10. Privilege individuals*1 / Equal rights and protection under law
    11. Affirmative action / No race consideration
    12. High government spending*2 / Low spending
    13. High government tax income / Low government tax income
    14. High government debt / Low government debt
    15. Flat taxes or anti-progressive tax / Progressive taxes

    *1 It does not matter whether this is based on race or a list of "ok" persons that do not have to go though the same airport security as everyone else. Any use of privileges as oppose to rights..

    *2 Spending on all things including the military and social security. Both the Republican and Democratic parties are for high government spending, they just differ on what to spend the money on.

    Now, I've listed this vectors in the form Big Government / Small Government, but of course, the vector space represent an continuous range of values.

    Personally, I tend to side with small government on most, but not all, issues (for example, I'm pro-environmental protection).

    In any case, just off the top of my head, I've listed 15 independent axes that make up the political space in America. I'm sure we could add a few more if we thought about the subject for a while.

    A 15-dimensional space is far more complex than the one-dimensional left/right line that the media always draws when talking politics.

  32. Patrick


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    69   9:41am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    The links to previous thread comments are not quite working since the introduction of paging in long threads.

    Yes, sorry about that. Old links to quotes don't have the new c= parameter necessary to find the right page. I think I can can fix it but haven't gotten there yet. At least new links to quotes are working.

  33. Patrick


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    70   10:10am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    marcus says

    A more reasonable and less confrontational and polarizing look at the differences between conservatives and liberals.

    Yes, that video is pretty good. My own analysis may well be wrong.

    So this guy's idea is that there are these five psychological dimensions vary dramatically between liberals and conservatives:

    Harm
    Fairness
    Authority
    Ingroup
    Purity

    And that conservatives are much more into authority, ingroup feeling, and purity. But that all those ideas were historically necessary for social order, even at large costs to those at the bottom.

  34. Dan8267


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    71   10:13am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    And that conservatives are much more into authority

    What ever happen to the redneck spirit of rebellion? The only two rednecks that seem to still have it are

  35. ConfederateKoreanCar


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    72   10:20am Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patrick, you have hit it right on the head. Rush is killing himself w/OxyContin right before everyone and Bain Capital is just counting the money. Now that he offers that watching videos of someone's daughter have sex is payback for birth control being a covered expense by insurance, you get a peek into how decayed his mind has become. Anyone that listens to negativity for four hours each wkday is doing themselves some serious damage. Save yourselves old dudes.

  36. justme


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    73   12:03pm Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    I would like to see someone write the Rick Santorum or Mitt Romney version of the college professor class grading experiment.

    You know, the one where the grade is based on a distribution ("graded on a curve", as they say in the US), except that the criterion was how much money their parents "donated" to the school (read: bribed) rather than how much knowledge had been acquired.

    That would be as fair a description of oligarchy as the stated (but of course faulty) description of Obama.

    There is of course the additional and quite significant problem that the entire argument was a strawman: Obama is not a socialist in the first place.

  37. justme


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    74   12:07pm Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike (1)  

    Auntiegrav says

    The solution is to tax the money (sales taxes) instead of the person.

    Nope. Sales taxes are regressive, meaning that poor people will pay more tax as percentage of income than rich people.

    Taxation should always be progressive: Higher incomes should be taxed at a higher rate.

  38. justme


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    75   1:09pm Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    By the way, there is progressive AM radio to be found, too. Try for example the 960 kHz ("AM 960") frequency in the Bay Area.

    Progressive talk radio is considerable less ridiculous than right-wing talk radio.

  39. clambo


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    76   1:32pm Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (4)  

    Liberals are fools and hypocrites. Sometimes they are crazy, sometimes they have self-hate issues derived from hating authority (dislike of strict father). The most interesting liberal is the dilettante who believes that he is so superior and must show it by believing the opposite of whatever the "unwashed masses believe."
    I met two kinds of rich people when I grew up as part of the new england prep school milieu and spending summers in martha's vineyard.
    The self-made rich people were 1. nice, happy, generous, not bleeding hearts but not mean.
    The limousine liberals were from 1. media/entertainment 2. inherited wealth.
    They all felt some kind of guilt or angst against "the evil corporations, evil self made rich" etc. I think an actor who makes millions from a few weeks of being a minstrel feels deep down he doesn't deserve it.
    These people were often a real pain in the ass, cheapskates tighter than a crab's ass, and generally acted aloof and superior compared to the other guys.
    The essence of liberal is 1. the lower echelon is suffering and it's unfair to them 2. others are obligated to pay whatever it takes to lift them up.
    What adults who know any people realize is that the level of motivation and brains of people varies a lot and nothing will change the person.
    We who have read the constitution and know our history also know it's not really the taxpayer's responsibility to house, feed, clothe, educate, and give health care to the others who have done nothing to earn it except have children.
    Liberals want to punish success and reward failure. There is business failure, judgement failure, and personal failure.
    Also having friends who hung out with some famous liberal politicians, I learned more about the truth which I always suspected anyway. The bleeding heart liberal politician basically hates everyone but the way to get elected into office is being a champion of the poor. Teddy was a self-destructive, mean, adultering, drunk, loser with so many issues and no self control, yet he is somehow considered a friend of the poor. He hated them and his own constituents.
    My complaint with liberals is they insult our intelligence with their stupidity and nonsense. They have opinions before they have any facts.
    My father is in the dilettante liberal category. He believes he's superior. I also think his own father was an authority figure and his mother was maybe a racist. My grandmother on my father's side descended from Virginia plantation owners and therefore slave owners.
    Europe is imploding financially because most of Europe was historically poor, with a rich upper class. After WWII, the various countries tried to fix this not with efficient economic growth, but rather socialistic wealth redistribution schemes. It's not the USA's approach, and it doesn't work because it depended on redistributing wealth, not creating wealth.
    Switzerland is the proper example to follow, but the idea of low taxes and personal freedom and responsibility may not appeal to them.
    Either way, the USA is doomed if we try to be France or Britain.

  40. 1sfrenter


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    77   1:45pm Thu 15 Mar 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (1)  

    Patrick says

    You want to be sympathetic to them because you know about their frustrations, but they make themselves so ugly and unlikable that it's just not possible

    Well, now that science has proven that conservatism is caused by low intelligence, maybe I do have a tiny bit more compassion. Not.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/intelligence-study-links-prejudice_n_1237796.html

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