WatchFind a good deal on a house to buy or to rent by skipping the MLS and real estate agents.
Or make money by sharing your unlisted-house and rental leads.
The best situation for a buyer is to make an offer directly to the owner, without paying any commission to agents, and without any shill bidders. The seller also benefits from a direct offer by avoiding commissions, avoiding dishonest agents that block bids, and avoiding the cost and time of showing and advertising their house.
So how can buyers find owners who might want to sell? Or landlords who don't advertise publicly? By buying a lead from someone who knows about it. These people are often called "bird-doggers" or "jobbers". People who have leads describe their lead on the Property Leads Forum. The public description does not include the exact address or owner contact information. Interested buyers ask questions on the Property Leads Forum to estimate whether it would be worth paying for the exact address and owner contact information. The lead seller answers the questions as best he can without giving away the address or owner information.
Payment for a lead depends on the reputation of the seller. Payments start at $5, and rise $1 for each net positive review from buyers, up to a maximum of $50 for a lead seller who got a net 45 good reviews (meaning 45 more positive than negative reviews). Conversely, the amount a lead seller can charge falls $1 for each net bad review, though not below $5.
There are no refunds, but buyers don't risk much. They risk only $5 when buying from a new lead seller. Lead sellers with many positive reviews cost more, but they have proven themselves to be more reliable.
Payments are via Paypal. Patrick.net will take a 25% commission before paying the lead seller, but will also pay all Paypal charges out of that. So for a $5 lead, Patrick.net will receive $4.55 after the first Paypal fee, and then will pay out $4.17 to the lead seller so that the lead seller gets exactly $3.75 after that Paypal commission. The profit to Patrick.net is only 38 cents for a $5 lead.
Got a lead to sell on an unlisted property?
http://patrick.net/housing/leads.php
Need a lead on an unlisted property?
Check out the Property Leads Forum. Share lead descriptions with your friends to help them.
Follow
Befriend (3)
14 threads
232 comments
Beverly Hills, CA
Good Idea! Today I was talking with an alleged Realtor-lobbyist who informed me that many California Realtors were getting tired of the Listing agent practice of refusing phone calls or emails from Buyers agents about their MLS listings. Apparently, this is rampant in California. The "Buyers agent" function is being deconstructed by Realtors who demand both sides of the commish. She went on to explain that she has been lobbying (apparently successfully) to dismantle the DRE since they really only support the big Realty firms and rarely consumers. She said the existing DRE is too costly to the state budget. Instead the DRE will be re-organized under another state agency. I don't know how this will help. More bureaucrats getting raises and promotions for doing NO customer service. Licensing estate agents was designed to protect consumers, but just the opposite has happened. Instead consumers like sheep, are slaughtered twice: Once by Realtors and Second by the moribund DRE.
Follow
Befriend (3)
14 threads
232 comments
Beverly Hills, CA
I am ready to buy a list, but see nada.
Follow
Befriend
1 threads
17 comments
Nomograph says
sure, but with values that are unrealistic and even the sellers know it. They are just paying the agent for the sugar coated morphine pill that sometimes bears results and sometimes doesnt.
It's a good idea nevertheless
Follow
Befriend
7 threads
37 comments
San Clemente, CA
Nice idea, good luck with it! I'm looking forward to seeing the first leads!
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
investor90 says
That's because I need people with knowledge to list stuff. How can I encourage them to do that? I'm offering to pay them.
I think it's kind of a chicken-and-egg thing. Once people see listings, they'll add more, etc.
Is there some source I myself can use to get started? I suppose I could try selling NOD (Notice of Default) records myself. Just have to get them from the county.
Follow
Befriend
19 threads
1,534 comments
Los Angeles, CA
This idea is probably a waste of time but please pursue it you never know and the cost is super low for you.
Craigslist is where the FSBOs are.
Its bird dogging which is largely useless as its a rare rare thing to find, there are so many agents canvasing everywhere with flyers and advertisements and even door knocking and they scoop up all the leads/listings/buyers/sellers.
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
Yes, the cost of trying this is super low, so why not?
Please comment here if you have ideas for getting people to list stuff they know about.
One idea from my wife is that people who are moving out of a rental should list it on my site and make a little money. They obviously have the inside knowledge that they are going to leave!
Follow
Befriend
88 threads
457 comments
El Cerrito, CA
Premium
With your website expertise you might try a service that offers to list properties that went the traditional MLS route but ended up being withdrawn from the market. I often wonder if they just got fed up with the BS.
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
Yes, if a listing was withdrawn from the MLS, that's a good clue that they will take a lower price or deal directly with a buyer.
But how to find those? I'm kind of dependent on other people to enter them.
Someone who was into research on specific properties could potentially make a good living from this service.
Follow
Befriend
17 threads
35 comments
Las Vegas, NV
LASVEGASWINNER's website
Having survived 35 years of the real estate investing wars, I have never, ever got a "deal" from a FSBO. Try and point out a defect in their "castle" and they are insulted. And wait to you get back that inspection report and try to neogitiate some repairs. The 6% paid to an agent is nothing if you get ripped off. I prefer HUD Properties and Government Foreclosures when wanting a Wicked Discount
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
LASVEGASWINNER says
I'm not talking about FSBOs though!
I'm talking about approaching people who have not yet listed, and maybe didn't even intend to.
People who you know have some motive to sell, because of a tip you read on Patrick.net...
Follow
Befriend (1)
11 threads
224 comments
San Francisco, CA
As a prospective buyer, why wouldn't I just do the legwork myself?
Or maybe I am just the kind of person that could find the leads to post for you. I like doing that kind of stuff.
It really has not been that hard to use the free parts of the subscription foreclosure sites to track down potential listings. Foreclosure.com will give you the street name, date of NOD, date of auction, owner's name, general vicinity on a map, and sq. footage.
With that info. between the assessor's office, property shark, zillow, blockshopper, and google, tracking down the exact address and sales history is a cinch.
The problem is, THEN WHAT?
1. I find a house I want with a NOD: approach the owner with an offer for short sale.
2. Find a house that is up for auction: I'm not a flipper nor an investor, not interested in the risk involved with buying a house at auction: wait and then approach the flipper/investor and see if they want to make a quick sell before fixing and listing. HOW DO I FIND and CONTACT THE PERSON WHO BOUGHT IT AT AUCTION?
3. Wait until it does NOT get bought at auction and becomes an REO: HOW DO I GET THE BANK TO EVEN CONSIDER SELLING IT TO ME when they are sitting on their REOs and letting them seep out on their own sweet time?
Sorry for the caps, but those are the questions I have. Finding the houses is the easier part (at least for someone like me who likes playing online detective), but figuring out WHOM to contact to try and buy a place is the challenge.
Follow
Befriend
19 threads
1,534 comments
Los Angeles, CA
What you are talking about is the same thing realtors train in extensively. Get hired by a RE broker as an agent and they will teach you "How to get listings".
BUT substitute "How to buy a house" instead.
The realtor wants em to sign a contract to list it for sale, you want to do the SAME LEGWORK and cut out the agents commision. Its technically very easy, but huge legwork. Also u compete with 1000 scam artists doing 'we buy houses' scams (quitclaim deed with no release of mortgage then they control the house to skim rent until the foreclosure 2 years from then. many other scams out there....)
I would recommend just writing letters and door knocking, when u get a deal find an escrow company. Use any purchase contract u want as a buyer the seller is at legal risk for non disclosures NOT the buyer - so check out RE forms at staples.
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
1sfrenter says
Because you don't have the address until you buy the tip.
1sfrenter says
God bless you! Please try to make money from this and post some leads. So far, no leads. Yours would get a lot of attention as the first one.
1sfrenter says
Eventually the transfer of ownership will show up in county records, right?
1sfrenter says
OK, do that detective work and get paid for it! We could both benefit.
What would make it really worthwhile?
PockyClipsNow says
Yes, I agree. But also, please consider selling your leads on Patrick.net for fun and for money.
Follow
Befriend
1 comments
The fact that the address is not shown right away wreaks of Realtor tactics and the old school. The future of 'listings' or real etate for sale will involve more information that's totally accessable and totally free, not the other way around.
Follow
Befriend (1)
11 threads
224 comments
San Francisco, CA
Patrick says
Yeah, but I could get the address if I paid for a subscription to realtytrac or foreclosure.com.
Which I don't because
a) I'm a tightwad and
b) I am still trying to figure out what to do with the info. I would get (which I have already figured out how to get without the paid subscription)
IF I have addresses of homes that have been issued NODs, that is only the very first step. THEN track down the owner's address, if it is not their primary residence (very easy to do), contact them - politely - and convince them to sell their house to me as a FSBO or short sale.
IF the house has already been bought at auction, I would want to find the investor/flipper who bought it. Where would I find that info? County recorder's office? Then, contact them and try to buy the house before the fix and list.
And if the house becomes an REO, finding the bank that owns it is easy enough, but finding someone at that bank that will assist in selling it seems near impossible.
BUT, I could see how holding someone's hand through the above process might be worth something....once you've figured out all the steps.
And once an offer is accepted, hire an inspector and RE attorney to draw the papers up and no real estate agents involved at all.
Follow
Befriend (1)
11 threads
224 comments
San Francisco, CA
Dsr says
It is free once you figure out how to work around their paid subscriptions (using propertyshark's free features, your county assessor's online parcel info., blockshopper.com, zillow, and google).
Where/how do foreclosure.com and realtytrac get their info? Do they pay for it, groom the data, and then resell it online as a paid subscription? Or do they get it for free?
I'm new to all this. Maybe it's as easy as going to the assessor's office in person. ?? I dunno.
Follow
Befriend (1)
11 threads
224 comments
San Francisco, CA
Patrick says
Great idea!
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
Dsr says
There is a difference: realtors have a huge motive to lie to you, since they don't get paid unless you buy.
The tipper does not have any motive to lie, beyond $5. If the information is good, give the tipper a good review, and he can charge more for the next tip. If not good, give him a bad review and he can charge less. He has no motive other than to give good information that really helps buyers.
Totally free information would be nice, but how would it work? Are you going to go out of your way to tell people something special that you know? If so, why not just do it now?
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
You know, this whole thing can be summarized as "bird dog broker".
"Bird-dogging" is looking up good tips for investors, for referral fees. It's a well-established field.
So the question now is how to find birddoggers and to get them to use this service.
I know they normally make $200 - $500 if a deal closes, but for this service, they don't have to wait for deals to close.
Follow
Befriend
3 threads
104 comments
San Jose, CA
For a seller to accept the first offer they get for a home when they haven't even listed it... you better be offering a very very very high price that they cannot refuse.
It's like strangers that come up to me and ask if I wanna sell my car. My instant reaction will be to say no. If that stranger gives me the idea to sell, I'll likely list it to see what prices I'd get first. If I don't get what I can get from the stranger, then I'll call the stranger.
Seems like anyone who uses the service will be the sucker if a transaction goes through.
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
It's not exactly like a random stranger offering to buy your car.
It's more like someone knows you're behind in the payments and your car is about to be repossessed, and offers you a quick way out.
Maybe you don't have time to list it, and would be much better off selling right now.
Or maybe your car is obviously in really bad shape and you don't have the desire or ability to fix it up. At some point, people just give away their car because it costs too much to repair.
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
Yes, but it will clearly say that it has been sold before, and how many times. Here's the exact verbiage: "This lead costs $5 and has been bought 1 time."
But that $5 is just to start. Each time you get a postitive review, the amount any of your leads costs goes up $1. So the next lead sale will then cost the buyer $6, because you have a better reputation now. That goes on up to $50 per lead, but maybe that cap should be higher?
The address and owner contact info could indeed be resold. I don't think there's any way to stop that. But as I understand classic "bird-dogging", you don't directly sell a lead for $500 on the spot. You have to wait until the person who got your lead actually closes on the property, and then you get your $500.
This is different in that the payments are all immediate.
I appreciate your feedback. What would make it worth trying out listing a lead?
Follow
Befriend
17 threads
35 comments
Las Vegas, NV
LASVEGASWINNER's website
The quickest way to "burn out" investing in real estate is trying to work around the system that is geared toward Realtors. If you work with the right agent, your investment portfolio will grow faster and you will make money with less stress.
Your challenge is to find the agent and lives and breathes finding good deals. They are out there.
Follow
Befriend (5)
10 threads
2,329 comments
LASVEGASWINNER says
Very funny. :)
LASVEGASWINNER says
That is impossible.
Follow
Befriend (31)
34 threads
2,542 comments
San Jose, CA
Premium
Patrick,
So you want RE leads. I can sell you 500 to 1,000 leads a week for the Bay Area. I will give you the property address, owner's name(s), owner's mailing address, and in some cases, owner's phone number. I will also give you their loan balance, how much the property is worth, how much they currently owes on the house, when they received their NOD, when they will receive their NTS, and when the house will be auctioned off, and how much the starting bid will be.
How much are you willing to pay me? Whether your readers will use the leads or not, I don't care. Just give me a price. I will sell you these leads on a weekly basis and you pay me on the number of leads. :)
Name your price.
Follow
Befriend (11)
104 threads
454 comments
Premium
Patrick,
I have a few leads, but posting them would "give away" my location. Any way you can keep the identity/ username of the lead giver anonyms?
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
E-man says
75% of what readers pay me. It has to go through readers so that you gain (or lose) a reputation for lead quality.
EastCoastBubbleBoy says
I had not considered that. But hey, your identity / username already is anonymous! None of the other users know who you really are unless you told them.
If you want, you could register with a different email and sell them that way. It's free to try!
But it really is important that some identity that you choose develops a reputation for quality leads. I don't think it would work to make all the lead sellers anonymous. Then they wouldn't have any motive to improve their reputation, because they wouldn't have any identity to attach their reputation to.
repo4sale says
Would that help buyers get a good deal?
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
E-man says
Hey, here's an idea: just give me the other info (not the address or owner) and I will post it under your name. If people have questions, you answer what you know. If they want to buy, then I'll forward the money and you enter the address and owner info.
Follow
Befriend (1)
104 threads
2,851 comments
Wow, you mean I should buy low and sell high? Thanks, Einstein.
Follow
Befriend (4)
52 threads
4,416 comments
Corning, NY
Premium
Investing in hindsight is always very profitable.
I don't see squares or ovals anywhere on that chart...except in hindsight.
Is the current stock market a square or an oval? I cannot tell.
Follow
Befriend
17 threads
35 comments
Las Vegas, NV
LASVEGASWINNER's website
Is it possible to guess which direction this price chart is predicting prices to go? When a 90 day line and a 7 day line head in the same direction, you might have a really strong clue on to what to do with your investment money.
Follow
Befriend (1)
104 threads
2,851 comments
repo4sale says
I heard that Obama faked his birth certificate. Is this true?
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
Making that graph not start from zero exaggerates the increase. There is some slight increase in Vegas prices lately, but here's a better view, from my own data service:
Follow
Befriend (31)
34 threads
2,542 comments
San Jose, CA
Premium
Patrick says
Patrick,
You just gave me an idea. We might be able to create something that would benefit your viewers. Let's meet for lunch on Thursday to discuss. Please shoot me an email and copy pkennedy on it. Sorry in advance since I can't meet any other day.
Cheers. :)
Follow
Befriend (5)
31 threads
2,228 comments
Premium
Most ordinary customers are unlikely to pay for leads, though professional sales people and flippers might.
A different post (on adverse possession) reminded me of this thread, and you might find this an interesting suggestion. While politicians are trying to bail out their bank sponsors, always talking about "helping homeowners," many empty houses are getting trashed. (Criminals, teen parties, etc.) A better public policy would be to promote suburban homesteading, with a kind of waiting list. If people sign up to maintain an empty bank-owned property for five years, including paying property tax, then they get a right of first refusal on any sale price, and if no one has offered anything then they get the property free and clear. After all we've done to bail out the banks, we ought to get something in exchange. And, some banks might even welcome such a policy, or at least not resist if it were "forced" onto them, because it would relieve them of the risks and costs of home ownership. Municipalities and neighborhoods would benefit from even weekend occupancy, which would reduce the risk of blight, crime, and attractive nuisances. To maximize occupancy, such a policy might limit each person to one or two housing units.
In that context, online leads would become very valuable, as millions of people try to sort through millions of empty homes in order to sign up for the best match to their needs. Access to the resulting database would also have value for insurers, who could sell policies to homesteaders (both traditional homeowners' policies and "offer insurance" in case the bank finds a bidder who wants to buy the house out from under the homesteader). Insured homesteaders would have an incentive to invest time and money in maintaining and improving the property, knowing that in five years they would either own it outright or get paid on their "offer insurance" policy. So, contractors and maintenance companies might also pay for access to the database.
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
curious2 says
I think it would be a good idea, but lately I've heard that the banks don't actually own a lot of that empty property.
What often happens is a deadlock, where the bank threatens the ownerwith eviction, and the owner stops maintaining the property, mails the keys to the bank, and leaves. This is the famous "jingle mail".
But the bank does not foreclose, because it doesn't want to be liable for the maintenance. The actual owner is long gone, and it takes a very long time for the county to get around to auctioning off the house for non-payment of property tax (years I think).
If someone moves in and starts to maintain the property, the bank may just decide that the maintenance caused the value to rise enough to make it profitable to exercise its option to foreclose, and then take the house and sell it.
Would you maintain a house that the bank could take at any moment, and resell? You'd be working for the bank, for free.
Follow
Befriend (5)
31 threads
2,228 comments
Premium
Patrick asks
Personally I would not, unless I could insure against that risk. But, others might: Occupiers, students, etc. There is a whole industry of house sitters who live temporarily in properties that have absentee owners. The owners contract with a house sitting service, and the sitters pay a registration fee and/or discounted rent. NYC has a history of urban homesteading, in which squatters moved into abandoned buildings, fixed them up, and after decades got to own them. The issue tends to be, the sitters and squatters have no security, so there is limited appeal. Adding an insurable interest would broaden the appeal considerably.
(BTW, I have no connection to any insurance company, and am quite skeptical of ObamaCare's mandatory insurance. But, I do see legitimate uses for insurance, including something like this, where some % of houses would get bought or foreclosed and many homesteaders would want to insure against that risk. Insurance would thus broaden the appeal beyond the current sitters/squatters, possibly enough to solve the current paradoxical housing glut and housing shortage. People living in small apartments might homestead a weekend house in the suburbs, for example.)
Follow
Befriend (54)
5,181 threads
6,153 comments
46 male
Menlo Park, CA
Premium
Would it be better if I did not require a seller to type in the address in advance of selling their lead?
Right now, you can't list a lead without first putting in the address to my database, so that I'm sure it's a real address.
But maybe potential lead-sellers don't want me to have the address. I know I can be trusted not to use the info myself, but they don't know that.
So would I get more people listing leads for sale if I did not require them to enter the address until they got paid?
There is still the reputation feedback system to limit bogus leads.
Follow
Befriend (5)
31 threads
2,228 comments
Premium
FYI - municipalities and neighborhood associations might be a good source of leads, even without getting paid, related to the idea of suburban homesteading:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/us/south-bend-neighbors-embracing-abandoned-properties.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1332627953-FX1UTFIW/BIKLYhl0tgcqw&pagewanted=all
A large number of empty houses are likely to fall apart and become worthless in coming years, and meanwhile they already depress surrounding property values. Asking prospective buyers to pay for leads is looking to the demand side for revenue, while the bigger motivation may be on the supply side. As with coupons, department stores' "secret sales," etc., sellers want to sell without reducing the perceived value of what they're selling. If they simply mark down the price, publicly, then the perceived value falls too. BTW that may also be why some other threads have commented on foreclosures being sold to 'insiders' at a discount: the bank owners are looking for ways to sell without reducing the perceived value of the remaining inventory.