WatchSome racist follows an unarmed 17-year-old African American boy. The boy buys candy and iced tea at a convenience store and continues walking home. The neighborhood watch scumbag stalks the boy, murders him with a gun, and then claims he was acting under Florida's stand your ground law, which states that a person can defend himself from an attacker rather without fearing legal prosecution.
The law was intended so that victims of violent crimes like rape, robbery, and attempted murder could fight back without risking prosecution. It was not intended to give a person the right to pro-actively engage someone in battle, and if you win -- which isn't hard when your armed with a gun and the other person is a minor with no weapons -- then you get away with murder. However, the police didn't arrest the murderer. After all, the victim did look suspicious. He had suspicious skin tone.
And that is why I hate social conservatism. A boy with his entire life ahead of him, snuffed out because of some stupid reptilian xenophobia.
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leoj707 says
I think he applied for a "Ride-Along" Program a few years ago, kind of a Citizens on Patrol type deal. EDIT: There was a quote from a neighbor back in Virginia that Zimmerman asked him for a recommendation to apply for a LEO academy, but every Academy contacted by the media has no record of an application. Also, we know of arrests for DV and Assaulting a Cop, but those records are sealed... and maybe there are expunged records on Zimmerman also. His Dad, after all, was a Magistrate and would be aware of the importance of doing everything legally possible to cover up "negative records".
This could also be why no Police Agency accepted him - I believe many Academies can reject applicants with sealed arrest or conviction records.
The other angle that's not getting much exploration is the role of the Police Chief, State Prosecutor, and possibly the dad, Robert Zimmerman, former VA Magistrate Judge.
It appears the first two took a great interest in the case right away, and were the ones who made the call not to charge Zimmerman - against the wishes of the homicide detective.
http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/source-sanford-police-chief-state-attorney-made-zimmerman-no-charge-call-in-person.php#46882946
Sanford is not an exclusive area, it is a working/middle class area and has frequent violent incidents. This isn't some small town a la Alice's Restaurant where the worst thing in 20 years was garbage being dumped illegally, and the cops and prosecutor didn't know how to handle it.
There's also reports that the Police, with the Chief present at the scene and possibly the Prosecutor as well, didn't take pictures of Zimmerman's alleged injuries nor a bloody t-shirt that may have been soaked in both DNA and gunpowder residue (which could establish at what range Trey was shot at) - not to mention the splatter pattern.
Now the case has been assigned away from the original State Prosecutor who asked the Governor to reassign the case, and the Chief of Police has also resigned.
Something fishy in Denmark.
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Dan8267 says
When one fires a gun at another living thing there is no other intent but to kill. When discharged a gun is not a tool to capture or simply stop someone.
There are a few issues with “shooting for the legs”:
1. You would be charged with attempted murder. It would be nearly impossible to prove that you were not trying to kill. Perhaps if you were to show all the silhouettes of legs you have used for target practice at the range, it would help your case.
2. Legs are hard to hit; running legs even harder. If the bullet does not hit the target it goes somewhere else. Perhaps a neighbor’s home. If you are going to shoot you should make every effort to hit your intended target. The same goes for trying to make head shots. Aim for center of mass.
3. The leg is not a “safe” place to be shot. A hit that tears open the femoral artery will quickly kill someone.
4. As we have seen in the current case in question, dead men tell no tales. Things go much easier for you when there is only one side of the story. Say you actually have a legitimate reason for shooting someone in the back…
While fulfilling your honorable neighborhood watch duty for the greater good of your community you see a semi-obese 40 something white man, wearing a hoodie, prowling around your street. You approach the man politely asking him what business brings him to your part of town.
He yells back in your face, “DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM?"
“uhh… no…”, you nervously reply, taking a step backward.
“WELL YOU DO NOW”, he yells as... *WHAM* with a powerful blow he shoves you to the ground with such force the back of your head does a little bounce off the asphalt.
Heart pounding and head reeling from the jolt, through tear filled eyes you see him turn and move towards your house. He gives you a slight chuckle over his shoulder, “I have been prowling around your house for a month. You know that cleaver you keep in your kitchen drawer, next to your sink?”
You feel a stone of fear in your throat as realization sets in. Your mind clears enough for you to remember ‘the gun’. The swimming in your head begins to subside as you fumble in your coat pocket.
He breaks into an awkward loping gait -- laughing, “Before you can even get to your front lawn, I will have killed one of your sleeping family members.”
You manage to tug the gun free and pull yourself to a wobbly knee. You quickly raise your gun, and take aim.
If you shoot for his legs, turn to page 64
If you shoot for his back, turn to page 27
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Bap33 says
Bap33 says
Bap33 says
Bap33 says
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iwog says
Agreed, but he wasn't even arrested.
iwog says
But sadly race is a probably a factor in why Zimmerman wasn't arrested, and also why the Baps of the world so desperately want to believe that killing the kid ("prowler") was justified. Well that and they have the desire to believe that every asshole that claims self defense when they shoot someone really needed to do so (in other words they are overly defensive about handgun use of this kind).
The race angle is a big part of why this blew up in the media, but I think understandably so.
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Dan8267 says
Gosh, I wonder whether any of his neighbors who know him well would be willing to lie for him, to prevent him from having to go to jail for 25 years.
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iwog says
I was glad to hear that Bap agrees with this and that it was Manslaughter at least.
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leoj707 says
Vlad the Impaler had a unique method of eliminating poverty. He invited all of the poor to attend a giant feast in a special banquet hall he commissioned to fit the masses. Once all of the guests were comfortably seated inside, he had his troops lock everyone in and then burned the place to the ground.
Personally, I find it appalling that Vlad tried to eliminate poverty and not increase it.
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leoj707 says
not that long ago, you had a lady kill an intruder, this was in Oklahoma. She did stand her ground.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/firstatfour/story?section=firstatfour&id=8490359
Teen mom shoots intruder while on phone with 911
NEW YORK (WABC) -- A new mother from Oklahoma who shot and killed an intruder while on the phone with 911 said the dispatcher told her she couldn't shoot until the man broke into her home.
Her lawyer says she had every right to shoot the intruder and so far police agree.
"I wouldn't have done it but it was my son, gotta protect him," said Sarah McKinley.
The 18-year-old McKinley takes maternal instinct to a whole new level.
"I walked over and got the 12 gauge, went in the bedroom and got the pistol, put the bottle in his mouth then I called 911," she said.
McKinley admits she shot and killed a man to protect her three month old son.
On New Year's Eve, police say two men, one armed with a 12-inch hunting knife tried to break into her home near Oklahoma City.
McKinley says she thought one of the men had been stalking her.
"He was from door to door trying to bust in...They said I couldn't shoot him till he came in the door," she adds.
The dispatcher is heard on the tapes saying "I can't tell you that you can do that but you do what you have to do to protect your baby."
The moment the intruder stepped inside, McKinley fired.
.
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thomas.wong1986 says
Yes, I remember this story, and she did the right thing. However, technically she did retreat and did everything in her power to avoid the confrontation.
Any "stand your ground" law would not have any bearing her situation.
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It was a reasonable assumption by the shooter that the vic may be a thief. He was on foot, it was night, and there had been thieves in this area which is why they established a neighborhood watch in the FIRST place.
Witnesses and cops say that the vic attacked the shooter.
In Florida you can be legally shot if you attack someone.
The popular pictures of the vic are out of date, he's 6'2" plays football and was a reprobate student with multiple suspensions. His twitter account shows him flipping the bird, wearing gangster gold teeth, and calling himself a "no limit nigga".
Maybe you guys didn't attend a high school where guys like Tray terrorized people and were generally incorrigible.
This exact thing could happen also in Vermont, Arizona, Texas and other concealed carry states.
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clambo says
The witnesses are not consistent in this, and the video evidence does not suggest that an attack occurred in the way described by Zimmerman.
clambo says
None for violence. While Zimmerman has a known violent history.
clambo says
There is no basis to believe this to be true.
clambo says
Every state allows concealed carry. Some states are more lax in who they let carry. I think that we can all agree that not everyone should be allowed to have a CCW license. Do you think that someone with a history of domestic violence and has been arrested for assaulting a police officer should be allowed to carry a concealed firearm?
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Dan8267 says
You and 99.99% of the US population would have never heard of this story or even cared. Our President would not have commented on it and the Media would not be obssessing over it 24/7.
This shooting is a tragic situation that is not black/white (no pun intended). This situation has exposed the worst in some quarters by tweeting home addresses etc. and fanning the flames of racial division. All the while we ignore the much greater tragedy (in terms of human lives lost) of African Americans being murdered every single week by other African Americans.
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here in the state of mexifornia I can not carry a sidearm without LOTS of restrictions that render a sidearm into a rock. And, as you libs all know, placing soooo many restrictions on how I carry my sidearm results in you being able to suggest "premeditation" since I "went through all the trouble of learning how to load an un-loaded weapon fast enough for it to be a viable weapon." Silly lib restrictions only put good people at risk.
You build "a history of domestic violence" from one call by one wife, one time? You obviously are nor married to a latin blood female.
The facts are currently being twisted as tight as a drum by the Jesse Jacksonites in an effort to legally lynch Zimmerman. As with all things the racebaitors do, facts do not matter.
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I wrote "guys like Tray". No one has video of the attack. According to what the cops could ascertain, Tray attacked the guy. If you want to argue whether the shooter was a creep I don't know.
We all know that guys who are in constant trouble are people with an attitude problem, so either it is Tray AND Zimmerman both or just Tray.
The story as I understand it is that as Zimmerman was leaving the area to go to his car HE was followed by a pissed off Tray, punched, thrown down on the sidewalk, and was being beaten by the 6'2" football player on suspension.
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Bap33 says
Wait... didn't you agree with Iwog's assessment that Zimmerman was at least guilty of manslaughter? I thought we all agreed on that.
iwog says
Bap33 says
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clambo says
"May be." Okay, but if he isn't retarded, he would know that it's at best something like a 1 in 30 chance, and yes this is taking in to account the
profile.
Otherwise what ? 1 in 100. Yes just educated guesses.
SO he can keep an eye on him, because of his neighborhood watch role, or he can ask the police to check it out. IF he wasn't a sociopath, he could even engage the guy in a conversation, if he understood that he should back off at any hint of trouble, since the guy was after all minding his own business.
In the America that I want to live in, people don't get aggressive with people just because they are uncomfortable about strangers in their neighborhood.
clambo says
So in summary he was a teenager. Are you that out of it that you don't know the only thing that isn't completely normal here is the suspensions which didn't have anything to do with terrorizing people.
He played football, which means he probably cared a little about grades. He had a girlfriend too. Who knows, maybe that's where he was headed.
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Bap33 says
Have you even looked into getting a carry license in CA?
It is done on a county by county basis. Some are impossible to get a license in without a "connection", others are pretty easy. If you get a license in one county it works for the entire state.
Are you saying that there should be little or no restrictions on who gets to carry a loaded firearm under their jacket?
Bap33 says
Premeditation of a shooting would have nothing to do with you owning a firearm, unless it could be shown that you were planning a murder and during that planning you bought a gun.
Lax carry laws put good people at risk. There should be "reasonable" restriction on who should own a gun and even more restriction on who should be able to carry.
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clambo says
Look at the video. The story that you understand is most likely at least 90% fabricated.
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Bap33 says
He needs to be charged with at least manslaughter, and given a fair trial.
Bap, please recuse yourself from this thread because of your race issues and your gun issues.
THe normal and intelligent people are arguing in essence that he needs to be charged with Murder, or manslaughter and tried, and they are rightfully appalled that he hasn't been charged with anything.
The guy killed an unarmed teen, when any person with an IQ over 50 knows that it was not necessary.
("yeah, but,.. but,... maybe he was gonna bring friends back to hurt him if he didn't kill him." Right, like if he had such friends they wouldn't do much worse now).
I didn't realize until this thread how much of a frightened little girls some right wingers are. I miss the days when a fist fight would be a fist fight, without some scared little pussy pulling out a gun and killing the other guy.
But my common sense tells me that without Zimmerman having gun there wouldn't have even been a confrontation. Yes thats a guess, but it's a hundred times more likely than that Martin was a "prowler," also a guess.
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marcus says
I miss the day when our national culture, media and politicans would treat this sad incident with some perspective and restraint.
Is this really the most pressing issue facing America today to warrant all of this media coverage and division? Are there really tons of incidents of Hispanic neighborhood watch dudes killing unarmed African-Americans and not being prosecuted?
I'd wager there are over 1,000 cases of innocent black, white, hispanic, asian, indian folks getting murdered by gang members (of any race) each year with no arrests than cases like this Zimmerman/Martin situation.
Why does this story get so much more national attention while the other far more numerous cases of wrongful death don't?
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socal2 says
You have a point. But I wonder, do you think it's really frequent that something like this happens? We know who the guy is that shot the unarmed teen. They mostly have only have his word for what happened, and it seems so very likely given even most of Zimmerman's story that this was not necessary.
You think there are a lot of such cases where the guy isn't even charged and tried for at least Manslaughter.
I personally don't think that happens very often. It takes a degree of incompetence on the part of law enforcement, and yes at least some institutional racism for something like this to happen.
It is just one case, I guess some might think it's trivial compared to all murders. But I believe that he will be charged and tried, so all this attention will be more productive than many of the things we obsess about.
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marcus says
I don't think it is frequent at all. I think it is extremely rare. Hence no need for all of this national attention, T-shirts, tweeting home addresses, putting out bountys and even having the President of the US commenting on it.
FFS - we are even talking about it on a real estate blog.
There is far more injustice in America and on this planet occuring every single day that don't get a fraction of the coverage.
It's all politics. A "white guy" with a Jewish sounding last name shoots an innocent black guy, so Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson jump on a plane and gin up a bunch of racial division.......................all the while they (and the Media) are absolutely mute to the 1000's of cases of innocent black kids Martin's age getting killed in gang related crime.
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socal2 says
Yeah, not feelin it. Those guys aren't mute to gang violence.
They see this situation as a symbolic. I don't know how much it stirs up division versus how much it creates awareness, especially among young people who hopefully haven't formed their racist biases too much yet.
Most kids these days don't see race through the same lens that a middle aged people do.
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What media makes this out to be isn't necessarily what it is. None of us here were present at the scene of the crime. Just let the police handle the case without jumping to the conclusions.
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marcus says
fists dont cut it when you have armed thugs .
Armed Homeowner Shoots Robbers During Daytime Invasion (AZ)
&feature=related
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leoj707 says
The two are not exclusive .... the racebaitors and illegal calls for lynching and bounties are not "ok" in any regard.
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What do the protesters want?
Allow teenagers to carry guns too?
They are easy targets because they have no way to fight back.
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I don't know about the incident in question, but it sounds bad from everything I heard.
This "stand your ground" law sounds crazy the way the police chief describes it - is it really the case that there's no burden on a shooter to prove that he was threatened, that he can simply assert it and its up to the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he wasn't? Isn't that going to be nearly impossible in most cases?
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bdrasin says
Go to Youtube and search for "Man (or woman) kills intruder"
or watch the above video posted.
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Apparently if someone asserts that institutional racism may be a factor in the injustice of Zimmerman not even being charged with anything, that's "racebaiting."
Note: You will only hear racists say this.
Charge Zimmerman and give him a fair trial. This is called justice.
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marcus says
Yup. And that's why we need a trial. There is more than enough evidence to charge him, was from the moment the police arrived.
Other news: EMS report just leaked, no injuries on Zimmerman, second ambulance was cancelled. They only took Tray Martin.
Also: Zimmerman was fired from a Security Guard Job for being too aggressive.
Daily News so best treated with some skepticism:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ems-tapes-show-george-zimmerman-sustain-fatal-injuries-encounter-trayvon-martin-article-1.1053821
I think the theory that his unfulfilled dream of being a cop is the main cause for this whole situation.
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thomas.wong1986 says
OK, that video was pretty cool. Mad props to the homeowner for being prepared.
On the other hand, I don't think it helps much with my concern. If someone's trying to break into a home that's pretty much a threatening by definition (even without the weapons and ski masks that these guys had). On the other hand, the sheriff seems to think the law is (and for all I know he may be right) "no arrest until we have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that it was NOT self-defense".
In a public encounter, it seems to me there has to be SOME onus on the shooter to prove an actual threat...Zimmerman's story is that he got out of his car and pursued Martin, then changed his mind and headed back to his car when he was attacked. I don't know how you would prove that it didn't happen that way (particularly with no arrest, no chance to cross-examine him), but it sure sounds fishy.
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bdrasin says
carry video on you or in your car, as police do these days.
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Obama is trying to start a race war. Why? Maybe he wants to utilize his NDAA and instate Martial Law. Maybe this is more about being a distraction.
&feature=digest_sat
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"because Obama can't get people free houses and free cars like he promised"
I can't believe that moronic asshole has an audience.
If you want to believe a conspiracy, ask yourself why hasn't Zimmerman been arrested, so that he can be given a fair trial ?
By not arresting him, they put Obama in an awkward position, and totally cause this fiasco. Yes it's divisive, but the solution is for the right thing to happen.
I agree that we are seriously fucked over by media manipulation, but I believe that if anything the right wing powers that be see a political advantage to NOT doing the right thing and just arresting Zimmerman. Afterall, they do have a stronghold in FLorida. I'm sure by now the federal government has tried to influence things in that direction (toward an arrest and trial)
So just ask yourself why ? Why haven't they ?
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331,0,250481.story
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Why would the media outlets show a cute 10 year old picture of a boy that does resemble Obama and then show an actual picture of Zimmerman at his correct age.
It's sad that the medias focus is to play a side against another side and the dumb public just falls for it. Zimmerman was Hispanic, why then are there "Cracker" T-shirts out there.
Why can't the media just report absolute unskewed facts? Why is it always about instigating an opinion to rally people against each other? Is that the only way that they can steal business away from the alternative media outlets who are stomping their butts with the stats? Why is there no focus on all of the other hate crimes out there? Is is because this cute 10 year old looks like Obama?
If this guy is guilty, there will be a jail cell awaiting him. That's a fact. However, for anyone, especially the president to inject himself into the picture is just wrong. Why has this become a race war? Haven't we learned anything from history?
Why can't it just be that a man in or not in defense of himself killed a young adult? What about the millions of others who are killed daily throughout the world and our nation that are not being reported on. My opinion is that skin color should just be tossed aside. Now let the media report on everyone who is innocently killed every day, even here in Calif.
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solver says
The pictures are equally old, or possibly the Zimmerman picture is older.
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dude .... 3 years is a MUCH bigger change at 14 to 17 than it is from 22 to 25 ... you know this, so lets move on.
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Bap33 says
Yes physically. And fact: I don't care whether you are talking about girls or boys, at 17 they might have taken on nearly adult bodies, but they are still children.
If you worked with kids in this age group day in and day out, as I do, you would realize the very high likelihood that Martin was just an innocent kid. Even if he dabbled in non-innocent activities, he was an innocent kid. Yes, technically a child in my book.
Even 21 is still pretty immature in our culture, but 17 ? Much more so..