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Do Facts Even Matter?


By freak80   Follow   Sun, 25 Mar 2012, 3:58pm PDT   14,125 views   91 comments   Watch (1)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

I can't help but wonder if the following statement is true:

"In religion and politics, facts don't matter. People believe what they WANT to believe, IN SPITE of the facts."

I'm not the first person to make this observation.

I'm guilty of "wanting to believe" too.

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uomo_senza_nome   befriend   ignore   Wed, 28 Mar 2012, 10:16am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 52

iwog says

instead of making a rational argument for why profitability means anything.

I don't even know why these guys are even bothering to construct rational arguments to defend FOX News.

If we say FOX News is total BS, then their argument is CNN/MSNBC is also propaganda. Does that make FOX News any less evil?

The other argument is profitability, which does not even have a shade of credibility. Why would a profitable news source be necessarily credible?

These guys really need to suspend their neo-conservative bias and watch Jon Stewart or Colbert. The fact that American politics is total parody has given these 2 guys a full-time job.

Then they'd start to see that reality does indeed have a liberal bias ;).

freak80   befriend   ignore   Wed, 28 Mar 2012, 10:31am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 53

It's what we call the news!

Auntiegrav   befriend   ignore   Wed, 28 Mar 2012, 10:56pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 54

uomo_senza_nome says

Honest Abe says

but why is it they are the only network to break revelant news stories when the mainstream media either ignores the story or buries it on page 23?

Honest Abe - you are destroying any ounce of credibility that you may have by defending FOX News.

Though I think defending Fox is distracting, I don't think it "destroys" Abe's credibility. He could be pointing out an actual phenomena. News programs exist to sell cars. If Fox sells cars by sensationalizing random stories, and CBS (CIA Broadcasting Somnambulance) and NBC (N-B-See nuthin') sell cars by sensationalizing NYTimes stories, then Fox is more likely to randomly select something the other news programs find too politically offensive to use to sell Hondas vs. Fox trying to sell Roundup and trucks.

Auntiegrav   befriend   ignore   Wed, 28 Mar 2012, 11:07pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 55

uomo_senza_nome says

Then they'd start to see that reality does indeed have a liberal bias ;).

Actually, the bias comes from diversity and sustainability and random moderation. Nature abhors a Spike (specialization) as much as it abhors a vacuum. Conservatism wants to preserve some kind of comfort zone by forcing everything out of that zone that it doesn't like and to accumulate all of the resources it can. Nature has myriad ways of cutting off the spikes and filling in holes. This broadening of connections and diversifying of resources and dependency (liberal bias) is frightening to the ego of anyone. So frightening, that we assign nature's random behaviors to an intentional god so that we can stop trying to find reasons for things that are simply not reasonable.
"In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
In 1493, he stole everything he could see."
The Arawak version, where Columbus changes from a Liberal to a Conservative.

ArtimusMaxtor   befriend   ignore   Wed, 28 Mar 2012, 11:16pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 56

People fear. It's very plain to see. They fear for their families. They fear for themselves. It's not natural to fear. Fear spells dependance. If someone can hurt you usually it's financially. Childern fear as they are under the tutelage of parents.

Usually intimidation is enough and people will back off. Speaking and writting only in subtle terms. The fear remains. They stay put. Another words get back in your cage and stay there.

Being clever in your "current" situation may not work. You may be in debt or get a bi-weekly paycheck. In that case your more than likely screwed. You can ignore all of this if you want. Notice people over the age of adulthood they "owe" no one they are maviricks and very independent. They are held down to by "legally" making them dependands. David Bowie had to be subtle or this song may have met the garbage monster. Its like saying. Yea ok we know. Get back in your cage and ignore it. Hes also saying to some get in the rat race debt rat and win. Well how TF can you win there? You can't. They never let you out of that one. Fractional in of itself measuring the cost of what you buy vs the labor or work to pay it off puts you in debt and consumption continually. Another words. You labor and work far to much for what your getting. 700 dollar TV set is a circut board that costs 35 dollars to make labor wise. You think someone would grow a fucking tomato and find out what its like not paying 2.80 a pound. Or get a cow and not pay 13 dollars a pound for steak. You can't your in the city. Don't think that wasn't a part of the plan. Your stuck. It's grovel or hit the soup kitchen for you. Another words you don't really know anything but dependance. You could go right over the mountains and start building a house on the weekends. Greenhouse etc. Instead of sitting home and jerking off cause they won't let you hop on something at work you want. Or if your married sitting their contented with your brood and your wife, because well you provided. Then it's back to the hell hole on Monday with your shine box. The weekends are nice except when they hit the "juice" because well you fucked up and you may get fired. Its nice to hit the switch on insensitive bastards. I guess. You wanted it so you gots it eat shit and suffer. It can get poured on in so many differnt ways. You'll look like a guy that got hit full in the face with a old clothes iron twenty times before you can even think up another way. Some things NEVER back off. Another words try to get clever see what that gets you. TIME TO TAKE IT DOWN.

Artimus Maxtor 10:5 Niner: Stop circling the airport. The Air traffic controller has gone to another field.

Its not so much keeping things away from you peers. Which debt and a bi-weekly paycheck will lend itself to stumbling all over one another to shine the paper mans shoes. When it comes down to it they have absolutely no respect for people that grovel. They may be used to it of course. Ask yourself? Would you respect someone that you could push around very easily? That has to be a beggar living hand to mouth just hoping you don't take it all away from them? You might think ole Artimus is a mean S.O.B. Think again maybe Artimus dosen't like seeing people having to crawl for their supper.

Artimus Maxtor 2:6 Confucious says: Confucious get hit by phone book many time. Goofy, seeing double but still can find bed.

cc0   befriend   ignore   Wed, 28 Mar 2012, 11:20pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 57

uomo_senza_nome says

If I were to say some big channel actually speaks closer to truth, that would be RT. (Russia Today).

RT: Russia's answer to Fox News. According to Al-Jazeera. Ain't this fun?

wbblair3   befriend   ignore   Thu, 29 Mar 2012, 1:00am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 58

uomo_senza_nome says (quoting George Carlin)

My first rule: I don't believe anything that the Government tells me. And neither do I believe anything I'm told by the media, who, in the case of the Gulf War, functioned as little more than unpaid employees of the Defense Department, and who, most of the time, operate as unofficial public relations agency for the government and industry.
I don't believe in any of them. And I have to tell you, folks, I don't really believe very much in my country either. I don't get all choked up about yellow ribbons and American flags. I see them as symbols, and I leave them to the symbol-minded.

Carlin had the same view I've evolved into over time.

Here's Chomsky on Manufacturing Consent (mainstream media propaganda, intentional or not):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5631882395226827730

thunderlips11   befriend   ignore   Thu, 29 Mar 2012, 1:54am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 59

uomo_senza_nome says

LOL I'm not surprised. Lauren Lyster's Capital Account show is quite educative IMHO. Recently she had Bill Black. She has also interviewed Reggie Middleton, Yves Smith, Janet Tavakoli, Edward Harrison - all very good analysts, but hardly ever appear in MSM.

Yeah, excellent stuff.

US MSM 'experts': Barry "Double Dipper" McCaffrey, David Gergen, Erin Brunett, Arthur Laffer, John Fund, Krauthammer, Cokey Kudlow, etc.

RT is hated because they have real guests who give a real diverse range of opinion, not just the usual Optimate line.

uomo_senza_nome   befriend   ignore   Thu, 29 Mar 2012, 1:56am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 60

Auntiegrav says

He could be pointing out an actual phenomena. News programs exist to sell cars.

He was actually constructing a logical argument to prove that FOX News tells out relevant news stories while others don't. I don't think that's true.

I hate all mainstream news media, they are all propaganda. So my point is -- don't even bother defending them, because in your own words: "they sell cars".

Selling cars is not journalism it is manufacturing consent, IMHO.

uomo_senza_nome   befriend   ignore   Thu, 29 Mar 2012, 1:59am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 61

Auntiegrav says

Actually, the bias comes from diversity and sustainability and random moderation.

Ah, much more nuanced Auntiegrav. Thanks! :)

oliverks1   befriend   ignore   Thu, 29 Mar 2012, 6:03am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (3)   Dislike     Comment 62

Honest Abe says

What caused the housing bubble was: ... and (2) Carter's Community Investment Act, aided, abetted and exacerbated by Clinton to completely gut lending requirements and standards.

If this is the cause of the housing bubble, then how does it explain the following facts:

1) The UK housing bubble
2) The Australian housing bubble
3) The Canadian housing bubble
4) The Spanish housing bubble
5) The Greek housing bubble
6) The Fact that Deutche bank ended up as the largest landowner in Cleveland

How do these have anything to do with Community Investment Act? I don't disagree that government(s) were a significant problem, but this one detail, doesn't seems to have any positive or negative correlation to the problem. I might suggest you evaluate your own biases. I suggest the following three might be blinding you

A) You hate democrats and think everything is their fault
B) Nothing the government can do is good
C) You believe the poor and colored folks are the cause of America's problems.

Once you accept your biases, it will help you understand the world better.

P.S. I can agree that interest rates were probably part of the problem. But notice just part of the problem, there were other factors that complicated things.

uomo_senza_nome   befriend   ignore   Thu, 29 Mar 2012, 6:25am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 63

oliverks1 says

I might suggest you evaluate your own biases.

Nailed it there, not just the problem with Honest Abe, with many others as well.

It is apparently very hard to suspend these biases for a minute and actually think.

mdovell   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 1:51am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 64

We've seen a few shifts of the media in the past few decades

1) News reports have been cut down. Sound bites..you name it. Commercials are even smaller these days. No one airs a one minute commercial. These days a 30 second or even a 15 one is sold

2) International reporting post 2005ish has been dramatically cut. If something happens in the middle east these days they'll report about Israel from London...I'm freaking serious!

3) Nearly everything is dumbed down. TV news (especially network) is on a 6th grade reading level. Maybe the McCloughlin group would higher...Firing Line I'd say was higher..the best bet today would be Intelligence Squared which is on bloomberg sometimes

4) Is there a bias? Of course there is. First there is a bias that they won't bit the hand that feeds them. NBC never reported anything bad about GE when they were owned by them

4) We've in an environment where everyone wants to speak but no one wants to listen. On any given second at least 70 videos are uploaded to youtube.

I remember Nader said once that we really don't get local news anymore. A 30 minute block has say 8 minutes of commercials. The weather reported with a teaser, there's sports and then factor in anything violent that happened that day and there's really hardly anything. News networks repeat the same local news over but switch anchors..A network affiliate now repeats the same news for maybe 25-33% of what it airs every weekday.

here's an example of how some reporting has changed

ABC News did a great job in looking at both sides and gave ample time. These days that's impossible..there's no way that can be done now.

leo707   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 2:22am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 65

Cloud says

You could bring media bias and/or liberal hypocriscy on a silver platter

I would be very interested in seeing data sets/studies that support the idea of a liberal media bias.

When I have looked into it in the past all studies on the topic show a pretty steady conservative bias in the media. NPR seems to be the closest to an unbiased moderate news source, and even it has been shown to have a slight conservative bias.

But, please if you have a study that "proves" a liberal media bias I would love to see their data and methodology!

Thanks in advance.

leo707   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 7:44am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 66

Cloud says

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/mar/18/right-underrepresented-in-presss-diversity/

Yeah I know I know .... "Pew Research is bullshit." It's just like Fox News.

Nothing in that link that indicates bias. I does not matter how individual's in a media organization identify themselves. I would be curious to see how the self-reporting demographics of FOX "news" if on a similar poll. I would not be surprised if many ranked themselves as independent or moderate.

What is the overall story output of a media organization?

Cloud says

Shall we start with Dan Rather and the phoney documents? [etc...]

In a sea of information there are plenty of individual examples of bias. This is what an organization like FOX latches onto, what they don't look at is the big picture.

Even with individual examples you cited when the messages of media organizations are looked at in their entirety it has never balanced to show a "liberal bias".

What I am looking for is not anecdotal evidence, but a comprehensive study that looks at the big picture. I don't want just one card, but I want to look at what is in the entire 9-deck boot.

I do however appreciate you response.

omgbacon   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 8:30am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 67

oliverks1 says

How do these have anything to do with Community Investment Act?

Don't underestimate how EVIL Carter and Clinton truly are. It's a massive conspiracy engineered to give Habitat for Humanity more business.

CL   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 9:10am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike (1)     Comment 68

First of all, even the creators of the "liberal bias" myth, Kristol et al., admitted that it was all a ruse to work the refs. There is no liberal bias.

Even if you watch the (obviously and openly) liberal hosts on MSNBC, you'll notice some stark differences: facts and nuance.

You'll hear them describe Obama's problem with the left flank, and why. You'll hear complaints about how too little was done on X and how he is too cozy with Y.

I watch Faux news; it really is operating more on a brain-stem/id level, whereas the Center-Democratic leaning outlets appeal to logic.

Keep in mind that faux news is not necessarily "conservative" but an arm of the GOP establishment. I don't recall them criticizing Medicare part D, or march to the Iraq war. What happened to conservatives decrying the US as "policemen of the world", for example?

There is no logic, only emotion. (Excepting Chris Wallace sometimes, and Brett Baier, sometimes)

Mr Happygoluckofus   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 9:12am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (5)     Comment 69

Facts are just words one presents as proof for their side of the argument. Only the gullible take "Facts" undisputed.

CL   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 9:35am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike (1)     Comment 70

CaptainShuddup says

Facts are just words one presents as proof for their side of the argument. Only the gullible take "Facts" undisputed.

Don't you see the inherent disdain for the facts in your statement? Facts are real, provable, logical. A fact is that Obama has lowered taxes tremendously and extended the Bush Tax cuts. A fact is that the GOP has decided that that did not work to stimulate the economy.

The fact is they lack coherence.

Mr Happygoluckofus   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 9:44am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (3)     Comment 71

CL says

Facts are real, provable, logical.

Facts are only facts if both parties understand the parameters. And facts are only facts then as determined by those parameters.

For a christian Fundamentalist a fact would be... "You can not go to heaven unless you accept Jesus Christ in your heart..."

A fact for California Liberal circa 1979...
"Ozone is creating a hole in the atmosphere and we will experience an ice age by 2010." and then there's... "Blue Whales will be extinct by 2012"

My point is, you folks like to present theories and beliefs as "Facts" when they most certainly are not.

But that's all vague now isn't it? I tell you what give me a Fact, and we'll see just how concrete it is. Is it a fact or is it position, one would take? There is a difference, you just might like to pretend there is no distinction.

Mr Happygoluckofus   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 9:48am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (3)     Comment 72

CL says

A fact is that Obama has lowered taxes tremendously and extended the Bush Tax cuts.

REALLY!? That's a "FACT"?

So I don't have to pay that extra 2K in taxes this year, because you say Obama lowered taxes "tremendously"? And what about Gas, Beer, Cigs, Snacks, and Soda taxes, those don't count as taxes in your demented obtuse little world?

I want to thank you, thank you for going big, and illustrating my point.
You never disappoint, what a Lutz!

CL   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 10:10am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 73

CaptainShuddup says

For a christian Fundamentalist a fact would be... "You can not go to heaven unless you accept Jesus Christ in your heart..."

In your example, this is not a fact, but a belief. Hence the large number of people who can rightly believe otherwise and be disproven.

A fact: There are over 2 billion Christians in the world.

If that fact is changed or disproven as new information is made available, the objective person replaces that fact with an updated fact.

Emotions are real, but the way they shape your worldview are interpretation.

CL   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 10:11am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 74

CaptainShuddup says

CL says

A fact is that Obama has lowered taxes tremendously and extended the Bush Tax cuts.

REALLY!? That's a "FACT"?

So I don't have to pay that extra 2K in taxes this year, because you say Obama lowered taxes "tremendously"? And what about Gas, Beer, Cigs, Snacks, and Soda taxes, those don't count as taxes in your demented obtuse little world?

I want to thank you, thank you for going big, and illustrating my point.

You never disappoint, what a Lutz!

Did Obama raise Gas Taxes, Excise Taxes on Beer, snacks or soda? WTF are you talking about?

Demented, indeed!

uomo_senza_nome   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 10:16am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 75

CL says

Keep in mind that faux news is not necessarily "conservative" but an arm of the GOP establishment. I don't recall them criticizing Medicare part D, or march to the Iraq war. What happened to conservatives decrying the US as "policemen of the world", for example?

LOL very true. That's why they're called neo-conservatives, meaning total hypocrites.

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 10:32am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 76

thomas.wong1986   befriend   ignore   Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 2:37pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 77

CL says

whereas the Center-Democratic leaning outlets appeal to logic.

Can you name those "outlets" that appeal to logic.

Mr Happygoluckofus   befriend   ignore   Sat, 31 Mar 2012, 1:29am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (3)     Comment 78

Obama Sucks Ass = Fact!

marcus