"If Barack Obama becomes the president in November, again, I will either be dead or in jail by this time next year,"
~ Ted Nugent
Another famous Republican speaks out
By iwog Follow Tue, 17 Apr 2012, 7:26am 5,720 views 57 comments
In Lafayette CA 94549
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thomas.wong1986 says
Bullshit. Clinton raised taxes and investment skyrocketed. Bush radically cut taxes and investment (other than mortgage fraud investment) crashed.
Today taxes on investments are at record lows. The richest Americans pay around 15% on their new wealth. According to you, we should be in a period of record growth.
Do you people have a central command center where freshly minted bullshit is distributed to fellow Republicans?
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iwog says
Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Neal Boortz...
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iwog says
This bs isn't freshly minted...Reagan started the publicity and its been increasing in fanaticism since.
When you show them the facts, like GDP only grew .1% more per year under Reagan than Carter, they don't answer. Unemployment was also lower under Carter on the average. Again no answer. But Carter was the worst and Reagan is god. They keep repeating it over and over and finally even liberals start believing it.
Its propoganda and it is WRONG.
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Rock n roll musicians sure side with republican establishment a lot even though they claim to be rebels.
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http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=50880
Troubling?
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http://www.amazon.com/?tag=tbbutton-20
Here are some thoughts from another Republican who spoke out.
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If you first don't succeed, try, try again is a conservative statement.
The equilivant liberal statement would be: If you first don't succeed, cry MOMMY! (Mommy being the Government).
Anyway, here we go again:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2012/04/18/robin-leach-obama-socialist-he-whipping-racial-war-and-economic-divid
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Honest Abe says
No, no Abe, you are confusing it with that old conservative axiom: "Make shit up."
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"If Barack Obama becomes the president in November, again, I will either be dead or in jail by this time next year,"
~ Ted Nugent
This is just an election promise.
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Ted is nuts. For a guy who dodged draft he sure likes to tout guns and make big statements...
I don't think Ted is qualified to be a Republican or anything for that matter, he is mentally unstable.
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wthrfrk80 says
I've always thought that the world is full of dipshits who wouldn't know "far-left" if it was confiscating their property for the state.
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iwog says
Well Ducky, it seems strange that Obama and the Democrats no longer use the term Capital Gains and Losses from Investments in their vocabulary...
You may want to check the numbers... anyway Clintons increase wasnt much of an increase when you factor in excluding first $250K/$500K gain on sale of home.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=161
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thomas.wong1986 says
Nice link. Though when you adjust for inflation the numbers aren't quite so striking.
In fact, total capital gains has negative correlation of -.6 to maximum capital gains rate when total capital gains is adjusted for inflation.
Negative Correlation yes, but certainly not perfect or very strong.
If we discount realized capital gains by the CAGR of the S&P 500 (10.34% annually from 1954 -2008), suddenly all of the big numbers are pre 1973, 1979-1988, & 1997-2000. CAGR 1954-1973 is 10.85% annually, 1979-1988 is 16.43% annually, and 1997-2000 is 17.31% annually. Hmm..what else happened during those time periods...Oh I know, high ECONOMIC GROWTH.
This tells us during periods of higher than average returns in the general stock market, total realized capital gains go up. By the way, in all of these periods the maximum capital gains rate was 20% or greater.
The correlation coefficient of max tax rates and capital gains when adjuted for S&P 500 returns is -.1. Pretty much no correlation at all.
I guess all I am saying is - capital gains are much more strongly correlated to stock market returns than they are to tax rates. Obviously when the value of something increases more rapidly more capital gains will be realized regardless of tax rate.
By the way, Annual CAGR of the S&P 500 by capital gains tax rate:
Tax Rate Cagr
15.7% -8.7%
16.05% 14.34%
21.19% 4.42%
29.19% 17.3%
28.93% 18.7%
28.0% 15.4%
20% 15.36%
39.875% 7.02%
36.5% 0.59%
34.25% 14.54%
32.21% 3.6%
27.5% -8.63%
26.9% 11.03%
25% 14.22%
The correlation coefficient between those two data sets is 0.07. No correlation at all. That means there is no correlation between capital gains tax rates and stock market returns.
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thomas.wong1986 says
Was this supposed to be an argument?
Why isn't the economy red hot right now? Taxes on investments are at record lows. Your own chart proves it.
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FortWayne says
I think a good term for Ted Nugent is "a chickenhawk."
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Kevin says
I know "far-left" as someone who wishes their political opposition was dead or in jail (example: your comment about Ted Nugent). Just like I know "far-right" as someone who wishes their political opposition was dead (example: Ted Nugent's comments about Obama).
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wthrfrk80 says
Totally a chickenhawk, and when the SS interviews him behind closed doors I bet all that tough talk and threats fade pretty quick.
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Isn't Ted Nugent the Black Jew who attends Nazi-Klan rallies?
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thomas.wong1986 says
Higher tax rates do encourage investment.
To avoid high taxation, companies and individuals reinvest the money in enterprises, hiring more people and buying/updating equipment and technology, rather than taking it out as profits and paying the high taxes on the gains.
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thunderlips11 says
Good point. In theory at least. I never thought of it like that.
Is there empirical evidence?
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wthrfrk80 says
Good question. There is some, far from a cincher, but it looks better than Supply-siders' claims when backtested.
Somewhat off topic, there seems to be little connection between corp tax rates and tax revenue (Laffer Curve assertion). Found this funny chart. It was originally posted in the WSJ as:
But is better tracked like this:
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wthrfrk80 says
Yes. Look at GDP growth by year. Compare that with marginal tax rates by year.
You will find that real GDP growth averages 2% higher in years where the top marginal tax rate exceeds 50% than in years where the top marginal tax rate is 50% or less. (since 1930)
Correlation is not causation, but that is the empirical data.
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david1 says
Thanks David. A little more chart porn:
Looks like a wash, but one certainly can't argue that cutting marginal tax rates cause an explosion in GDP growth by looking at US post-war history.
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Yes that definitely blows away the "Tax cuts for the rich create growth" assertion we get from the Republican Party. And we'll soon be hearing it from Mitt Romneybot.
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thunderlips11 says
A upward sloping curve showing Combined aggregate GDP growth with tax rate would be more illustrative,
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I suppose a fair counterpoint would be the following: corporate income taxes in the USA are high relative to other developed countries. Maybe it's just a shell game...the taxes are taken out before they are distributed to ultra-rich shareholders.
It would be interesting to see how U.S. corporate income taxes changed over the decades. I wonder if the drop in the top marginal tax rate had a corresponding increase in the corporate tax rate.
Another question: are capital gains taxes affected by the top marginal tax rate? Or just "ordinary" income?
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wthrfrk80 says
Plenty of US corporations paid no taxes or even got returns last year. It makes no difference what the theoretical rate is, if nobody pays it.
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Vicente says
I agree and disagree. The tax loopholes go to the politically well-connected, and will continue to do so until we can get money out of politics as well as limit the scope and power of the government.
However, of course the corporate tax rate matters. The biggest companies (read: the richest amongst us) can afford to buy themselves tax credits, capture our regulatory bodies, bankroll any political candidate they want, and generally bully the poitical system into compliance with their monied interests. It's the up-and-coming cometitors (read: the job creating little guys) who are being shit upon by this system. It's simply the richest amongst us maintaining a huge barrier to entry into the power club.
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The highest corporate tax rates are paid in other countries, not the US. Example United Arab Emirates is far higher, also Japan.
The lowest corporate tax rates in the world are present in frankly corrupted "tax-haven" countries in the Carribean. I don't like the idea of racing to be the most corrupt nation in which one can escape paying taxes.
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Well in your(The Patnet Liberal collective) eyes, shouldn't all Fat, Conservative religious pro gun, anti abortion xenophobes be kicked off the plane? Preferably at 20K feet...
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CaptainShuddup says
No, just you.
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Vicente says
Would you say the same about Ireland... or better yet Delaware, for State Income Taxes. Yes even Delaware is a "Tax Heaven"... but you dont hear the Dems talk about that...
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Vicente says
Too many people associate public SEC financials to the IRS tax return... they are different.. for one tax income (losses) can be carried back (and claim refund) and carry forward until losses are expired, all used up.
There is a difference... and nothing evil about it. They are following the IRS code...
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thomas.wong1986 says
Yes, it's a fool's game to race to the bottom. Corporations nudge you to build them an office park, run them utilities, give them special rates. Built with taxpayer money of course on promise of future jobs. Then 6 years later after they've milked the handouts good and hard, they find another state that will play that game and "buy" their jobs. They close up shop and move there and fuck over everyone there too. Leaving behind a trail of ruin of course, but who cares right? It's rare to see any case where any of these office park and industrial zone buildouts are long-run positive for the community. Corporations are run by psycopaths who don't give a shit about the jobs they claim they can create, it's all about how much they can con the suckers into giving up for free. Even domestically there used to be something of a barrier to just playing "gypsy" and moving your operation from state to state. Big factories and foundries weren't just something you could pick and move. Trained machinists couldn't just be relocated on a whim. Now of course even if your business is industrial, maybe it's automated enough that it doesn't matter what monkey operates it so what the heck let's move....
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FortWayne says
I thought that was a requirement.
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Vicente says
Exactly. They promise the moon and million jobs and there's no down side when they don't deliver.
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Dan8267 says
Not necessarily a requirement to be a republican, but required to get elected to a national office.
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Vicente says
The world is run by psycopaths.
Think about it. Those who get power are the ones willing to do almost anything to get it, including fucking over their fellow man if need be.
It's sort of like "natural selection."
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Vicente says
True.
Maybe the solution is to lower corporate tax rates to zero and just tax the individuals (that make up the corporation) instead:
1) raise taxes on dividends and capital gains (i.e. tax the shareholders)
2) raise income taxes on high incomes of corporate CEOs and the like.
It's a shell game. I've just heard that it's harder for individuals to avoid taxes than it is for corporations that can hire armies of accountants to game the tax code.
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wthrfrk80 says
Fixed ;)