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Self-made men, debunked


By Dan8267   Follow   Thu, 3 May 2012, 6:20am PDT   12,593 views   101 comments   Watch (1)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

Heck, if you put any man in the middle of nowhere, Afghanistan, he will have trouble just surviving. He certainly won't be able to build a skyscraper, a computer, or an automobile without the help of other people. Well, not unless he's this guy. That guy is awesome.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/30/self_made_men_debunked_salpart/

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dublin hillz   befriend   ignore   Wed, 9 May 2012, 9:23am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 62

Dan8267 says

the utlra-rich, who never produced any wealth in their lives, want a multitude of poor people to maintain their opulent lifestyles. And the ultra-rich brainwash the Republican voter into thinking that the ultra-rich are rich because of hard work and production instead of bribing Congress to let them do things that would be illegal for anyone else

Yes, I believe that the uber rich want to feel as though they are at an all inclusive resort in a developing country - where they feel like kings while local employees serve them with a smile on their face while they work for scraps.

nw888   befriend   ignore   Wed, 9 May 2012, 10:15am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 63

Dan8267 says

This is exactly the bullshit that I'm talking about. So, yes, I'm arguing it, you idiot.

Go fuck yourself.

Dan8267 says

My claim is that in order for any person to succeed, he must use resources that are available only because society has made those resources available.

Isn't this claim obvious? Why are we even discussing it? Everyone needs each other to survive.

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Wed, 9 May 2012, 11:44am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 64

nw888 says

Go fuck yourself.

You're a fuckin' asshole. You know why? You don't have the guts to be what you wanna be. You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your fuckin' fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie. Me, I don't have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth even when I lie. So say good night to the bad guy! Come on. The last time you gonna see a bad guy like this again, let me tell you. Come on. Make way for the bad guy. There's a bad guy comin' through! Better get outta his way!

Kevin   befriend   ignore   Wed, 9 May 2012, 4:41pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 65

socal2 says

What a loser argument. Do Democrats really want to tell Americans that they are nothing without the Government wiping our behinds 24/7? It's just like that creepy "Julia" cartoon that Obama put out showing how the government supported Julia her entire life.

Seriously, who really wants to live in a society where all of our success and very existence is beholden to politicians and union protected bureaucrats?

Only people with really, really low reading comprehension. You must have gone to public schools.

leo707   befriend   ignore   Wed, 9 May 2012, 6:19pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 66

dublin hillz says

Yes, I believe that the uber rich want to feel as though they are at an all inclusive resort in a developing country - where they feel like kings while local employees serve them with a smile on their face while they work for scraps.

Oh, I don't think that just want to feel it. Many of them seem to be actively trying to make it a reality.

Honest Abe   befriend   ignore   Thu, 10 May 2012, 5:25am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 67

Debunking the Self made man - debunked. Government occupies the central role in creating conditions which lessen economic prosperity and personal opportunity.

Government despises, demonizes and punishes economic prosperity while simultaneously crushing personal opportunity.

The proof is that government strives to create EQUALITY which negates, or is the opposite of, economic prosperity and personal opportunity.

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Thu, 10 May 2012, 12:09pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 68

Honest Abe says

The proof is that government strives to create EQUALITY which negates, or is the opposite of, economic prosperity and personal opportunity.

Equality is the opposite of personal opportunity only if you believe in nothing but zero-sum games.

m1ckey6   befriend   ignore   Thu, 10 May 2012, 1:15pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 69

Arguing that people who have made money from scratch because of infrastructure is a facile argument.
Of course having roads to transport goods is helpful and so is having the internet to communicate. People who are self made have contributed to these systems too and in fact have usually kicked in vastly more than whiny journalists. Outside of the extreme fringe of the Libertarian party who would ever complain about some services being publicly provided?
As a Los Angeles resident, it is very obvious to me that a significant proportion of the population doesn't work. On my middle class street there are a couple of households at best that go off to work every day. Yet they can afford these houses and most have big, shiny late model cars in the driveway. Unless I happen to live on a street with independably wealthy people myself and a few others are paying for all the public services we all enjoy.

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Thu, 10 May 2012, 2:46pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 70

m1ckey6 says

Arguing that people who have made money from scratch because of infrastructure is a facile argument.

And I would agree with that up to the point where conservatives argue against this facile truth with the myth of the self-made man who succeeded, not because of all the opportunities and support he received from society, but despite it and therefore he has no moral or ethical obligation, no duty to return to society a bit of the profits so that the next generation can have successful people as well.

The self-made man myth is used as a justification for selfishness and self-centerness. It runs contrary to the self-evident truths that now people are claiming are obvious. It has been said that the truth goes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally, it is accepted as self-evident. Although, until nw888, I never saw a person go through all three stages in a few lines of text.

Honest Abe   befriend   ignore   Sat, 12 May 2012, 12:04am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 71

Its really about the difference between freedom and slavery. Many support the concept of free enterprise (freedom). Liberals believe they own the person or the labor of the person . Owning another person, or the fruits of their labor is slavery, isn't it?

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Sat, 12 May 2012, 1:14am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 72

Honest Abe says

Liberals believe they own the person or the labor of the person .

I have yet to meet a liberal who believes that.

As for taxation being slavery, our employers tax us at 50-80% of our labor's fruits. Out of the remaining portion, government only taxes about 25%. I'm more a slave to my employer than to the government.

The fact is that no system could make an executive a billionaire without heavily taxing the producing class.

Vicente   befriend   ignore   Sat, 12 May 2012, 12:19pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 73

Dan8267 says

As for taxation being slavery, our employers tax us at 50-80% of our labor's fruits.

Well that's a perspective I hadn't thought of.

But you're right, the targetting of our wallets by corporations is pretty direct & comparable. Whatever you make, they want to find a way to make you spend it on their products.

Honest Abe   befriend   ignore   Sun, 13 May 2012, 12:41am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 74

Dan, how is it the employer taxes us 50 - 80%?? Maybe I'm missing something, please elaobrate.

iwog   befriend   ignore   Sun, 13 May 2012, 2:39am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 75

Honest Abe says

Dan, how is it the employer taxes us 50 - 80%?? Maybe I'm missing something, please elaobrate.

Do you really think a capitalist "makes money"? Are you really that naive?

A capitalist uses other people to make money for him then he takes a large percentage of it.

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Sun, 13 May 2012, 3:39am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 76

Honest Abe says

Dan, how is it the employer taxes us 50 - 80%?? Maybe I'm missing something, please elaobrate.

As I showed earlier in this thread, the average American worker produces over $100k of wealth a year, yet is paid before taxes about a third of that. Where does the rest of the wealth go? It goes to the employer as a tax on the employee's productivity.

Now a 10% tax on employee productivity would be somewhat reasonable. At that rate, an employer only has to employ 10 people to make as much as the workers while doing minimum work himself, but to take about two-thirds of the worker's income is extravagant by any standards.

The bottom line is that your employer takes a far larger chunk of your wealth production than your government. Yet people ignore this because they have no idea how much money their employers are making off of them. Ignorance is their greatest tool. That's why salary information is always secret.

Kevin   befriend   ignore   Sun, 13 May 2012, 5:26pm PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 77

ArtimusMaxtor says

I just wonder why there is only Democracy, Socialism, Communism and dictatorship.

Only two of those things are forms of government. There are many, many forms of government (and even many forms of democracy).

Mr Happygoluckofus   befriend   ignore   Thu, 14 Jun 2012, 12:57am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 78

Dan8267 says

As I showed earlier in this thread, the average American worker produces over $100k of wealth a year, yet is paid before taxes about a third of that. Where does the rest of the wealth go? It goes to the employer as a tax on the employee's productivity.

... and you got two likes for that?

I think you miss the whole point of the Employer/Employee relationship.
If you don't provide any ROI for your employer then he's your Uncle doing your Dad a solid by giving you a job, even though he has no use for you. Now if you want an equal part of the pie, then I think the word you're looking for is "Partner" yes "Partner" I'm sorry you missed the bonus round but you did win the Socialized handicapped challenge.

Bob tell him what he won!

"You win a Stalin Coffee pot, you'll wake every morning and brew a fresh pot of coffee, which you'll never actually get to enjoy your self. Your neighbors, friends and family will enjoy fresh robust coffee at your expense every morning. And to get you started, you will go home with ration coupons for 5 pounds of coffee.

Drink Stalin or the KGB will be callin."

(queue cheesy game show music)

aurelius   befriend   ignore   Thu, 14 Jun 2012, 1:27am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 79

CaptainShuddup says

I think you miss the whole point of the Employer/Employee relationship.

Exactly. The point is to extract the excess value created by their labor and give them just enough to keep them coming back and keep the rest for yourself. That's what I do (shhhhh don't tell.)

Mr Happygoluckofus   befriend   ignore   Thu, 14 Jun 2012, 1:48am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 80

Well there's always the Employee profit sharing lie if you want to work for Wal-Mart or someother company that forces you to work cheap while claiming they are giving you profits. But all they have to do is update their quarterly profit earnings to make sure you don't get dick.

Or you can save up money and go in business for you self.
Then you'll miraculously have a different take on this, I would guarantee it.

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Thu, 14 Jun 2012, 8:28am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 81

CaptainShuddup says

If you don't provide any ROI for your employer then he's your Uncle doing your Dad a solid by giving you a job,

All employees provide ROI for their employers or they are immediately fired, well except in the defense industry and other worthless government jobs.

The problem is that employers are so greedy that taking 50% of a worker's wealth production isn't enough. He wants 90% now. He wants to take as much as he can letting the worker barely have enough to survive another day to work.

That is why outsourcing to third world nations with slave wages is so popular. It is also self-destructive. In 50 years, America will be a third-rate economy and China, possibly BRICS, will be the one and only economic powerhouse.

Furthermore, as the Chinese already know, the next superpower will not be based on military might, but rather economic might. China or BRICS will be the next undisputed superpower and the USA will be its bitch. So, if you're a patriot, you might want to stop that.

Vicente   befriend   ignore   Thu, 14 Jun 2012, 8:44am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 82

Dan8267 says

China, possibly BRICS, will be the one and only economic powerhouse.

Basing their economy on trading with whom?

Once the wealth-transfer is complete, seems like China will be in a corner. Once you've assisted in taking all your trading partners down to your level, they won't be rich customers eager to buy trinkets by the truckload.

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Thu, 14 Jun 2012, 8:52am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 83

BRICS scares me for the following reasons.

1. China and India each make up 25% of the world's population. Together they make up half the world. By sheer size alone they are an economic force to be reckoned with. But now, instead of being competitors, they are allies.

2. Although Brazil and Russia have had some hard economic times, they have also greatly exceeded expectations and have a lot of wealth generating capabilities. As large emerging markets, they have great potential to add to BRICS.

3. The days of the petro-dollar are numbered. Oil could be sold in a BRICS currency. Oil will eventually run out anyway, and what backs the value of the dollar then? When the dollar's exchange rate suddenly plummets and America can't afford to import and can't build anything since the infrastructure doesn't exist, then what?

4. Russia, India, China, and South America aren't exactly known for a stellar human and civil rights record.

5. There is always a possibility of a military alliance forming from BRICS.

I think we should be cautious and not underestimate how powerful BRICS could become.

Honest Abe   befriend   ignore   Fri, 15 Jun 2012, 6:19am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 84

Dan, if businesses are so profitable, and take up to 80% of the workers wealth, why not beat those greedy capitalists at their own game.

Start a business for yourself and give your workers 80% more than is being paid by competiting businesses. That way you can feel good about yourself and pay your workers a fair and equitable salary. Problem solved.

Now stop complaining and get to work!

thunderlips11   befriend   ignore   Fri, 15 Jun 2012, 6:23am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 85

Honest Abe says

Start a business for yourself and give your workers 80% more than is being paid by competiting businesses.

Then you can't compete. If your rivals are taking 80% of their workers' wealth generation, and you are only taking, say, 30%, they can use that difference to expand, advertise, buy more efficient equipment, etc. in a way you can't and will eventually bury you.

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Fri, 15 Jun 2012, 6:26am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 86

thunderlips11 says

they can use that difference to expand, advertise, buy more efficient equipment, etc. in a way you can't and will eventually bury you.

I would call that a combination of overhead (advertising) and capital equipment investment. I don't mind that.

But it's fundamentally different from executives taking that 50% differential and giving it to themselves through various mechanism and using it to buy yachts and other toys.

leo707   befriend   ignore   Fri, 15 Jun 2012, 7:37am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 87

Honest Abe says

Start a business for yourself and give your workers 80% more than is being paid by competiting businesses. That way you can feel good about yourself and pay your workers a fair and equitable salary. Problem solved.

Costco already does this type of thing and has found that if you treat your workers better you actually create an overall more profitable company.

Treating people good is an investment and increases long term profitability, but corporate America general looks only at what they can do in a 1 to 4 month window to increase profitability. They often sacrifice long term viability for short term gain.

Honest Abe   befriend   ignore   Sat, 16 Jun 2012, 4:49am PDT   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 88

We are all self made men, but only the successful one's admit it. For the others- its everyone elses fault. In life there are only successes and lessons. Yet many don't learn what the lesson is attempting to teach. In other words, some repeat the same mistake again without learing the lesson.

No one can stop someone from becoming successful, although government puts up a blizzard of roadblocks - and then demonizes the successful ones.

In spite of that, there are so many self-made examples in America that they completly debunk the debunking of the self made man fallacy.

Dan8267   befriend   ignore   Sat, 16 Jun 2012, 5:35am PDT   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 89

Honest Abe says

We are all self made men, but only the successful one's admit it. For the others- its everyone elses fault

I'm successful, and I say I couldn't have done it without the scientific method, the sewer system, the highway transportation system, the electric grid, and a million other things built before I was born.

Try traveling back in time to the stone age and being "successful" by modern standards. How many factories would you have built in the stone age? Would you even have lived pass 30?

Honest Abe says

No one can stop someone from becoming successful,

From Andrew Carnegie to Bill Gates, there are many people who disprove that hypothesis. Not to mention that whole slavery thing that lasted several hundred years on this continent. How much opportunity did slaves have to become successful? Hell, George Zimmerman stopped Trayvon Martin from becoming successful in just a few seconds.

Never underestimate the power of being born at the right place and the right time. Had Warren Buffet been born in Ethiopia or rural China, he wouldn't be rich at all.

Yes, one is ultimately responsible for his or her success and we are all wholly responsible for our actions. But to suggest that it is merely sheer force of will that determines success like Green Lantern building a bridge with his mind is utterly wrong.

In order for a person to be successful one of two things must happen. Either the person must be given some privilege or there must be a fair system which allows all to succeed based on their own merit and hard work. I, personally, vote for the later.

Of course, for a fair system that allows all intelligent, talented, hard-working individuals to succeed, the can be no parasitic behavior and no rigging of games. This means that corporations cannot have enough power to dictate terms of employment. Nor can any corporations or oligopoly control the means of production or a public resource like the EM spectrum. This includes companies like Viacom and the large telecoms.

In fact, there are many things in our legal system from the DMCA to patent laws to fractional reserve banking to lobbying that prevent people from becoming self-made men because the parasites on top have the money and power to prevent competition and innovation.

Just take a look at clean energy. For over 100 years, we have subsidized oil companies. Do you really think that oil companies want any energy solution that allows individuals to cheaply produce pollution-free energy in their own backyards? That would kill all energy companies because they depend on centralized control of energy.

No one can stop someone from becoming successful, my ass.

Yeah, capitalism rewards hard work and ingenuity my ass. It rewards backstabbing and sabotaging your competitors and your partners. Now a system that actually did reward hard-work, productivity, and ingenuity, that would be worth sucking every cock in the universe to get.

bob2356