WatchIf competition could be restored to the home buying process, transaction costs could be greatly reduced which would connect more buyers and sellers with deals. This claim to 6% ownership of all real-estate causes the market to be sticky, fewer transactions occur as a result. More sales would occur if there wasn’t a 6% barrier between the seller and the buyer, and the purchase price would be lower for the buyer as well.
The housing market would recover faster if home deals could omit this expensive middle man. People should not revert to realty offices when thinking of buying or selling homes. Individuals need to default to internet sites like Zillow.com or other housing sites in order to reduce the market collusion from realtors. The internet is a great device for competition! Now people need to realize that websites can be used to organize home buyers and sellers just like Amazon, Craigslist, or Ebay, without the expensive middleman.
Many people argue that buyers do not pay the fees to the realtor so they should not care if the realtor gets paid. Well due to the fungibility of money, the buyer could have bought the house for 94% of what they paid because that is what the seller was willing to accept for the house. This makes it obvious to see that the seller nominally pays for the realtor fees, but the buyer, in real terms, pays about 6% too much for the home. Not realizing that a realtor’s 6% could be negotiated is a flaw that must not be overlooked.
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FUCKAPOCALYPSE says
I'd reconsider. Where are you going to find an unmoderated site like this one to play in?
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Mill Valley, CA
You Lowlife says
Personally (and I only mean ME) I've been exposed to what I'd referred to as more 'unprofessional' lawyers and doctors than I have Real Estate agents (or, Realtors) in my life. A 7 year degree does not guarantee 'professionalism'.
I've been in sales for 25 years and your analogy of a toll booth operator is one I think of regularly. I have a bridge, it's one of many bridges available to prospective buyers and consumers.
My goal is to make the absolutely best passage available. I'm not the cheapest as I am providing great service, but my bridge is the smoothest, fastest way to get Buyer to Consumer connected. Once passage is easy for Buyer and Consumer to make, they willingly hand over their toll to my company.
Our 'toll' is 20-25%....a whole helluva' lot more than RE Agents charge for their services.
A good Agent is well worth 6%. A bad one could make that same 6% an insufferable amount to pay.
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CBM says
I've found having a good title company is the key to a smooth deal. In a FSBO the buyer or seller can pick their title company. When a Realtor is involved they usually use a title company that sucks. Why they choose a crummy title company I have no idea. I even had a Realtor willing to walk (and betray their client) because I insisted on using my title company. I gave in and agreed to use theirs. Low and behold when the buyer saw my title company crossed out on the contract he called them directly asking for a price estimate. In the end I ended up accepting an offer from someone easier to deal with but it goes to show you the buyer was open to using my title company, the Realtor wasn't and lost the deal because of it.
With Realtors I've found when they're bad they're VERY bad. When they're good they're very good. As soon as I know I'm dealing with one of the bad ones I take an alternative route if at all possible. What's also worked for me is calling their broker and begin dealing with them. I told him we were having a clash of personality. (resisting the temptation of telling him his agent was a lying egotistical fool) :)
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Indict and disband the NAR!
Open source the MLS!
Throw the banksters out of helicopters!
Hunt the mortgage brokers with farm implements!
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YesYNot says
To find a good Realtor start out by calling the broker. If you can't get ahold of them move to the next. If you feel a rapport with the broker, tell him/her your needs then ask the broker to recommend an agent or see if they want to handle it. Get the broker's cell number. Then if you have a problem with the agent you have the broker to fall back on.
The MLS has all sorts of information fields you can add that Redfin doesn't have. I can search for sellers that have no balance on their mortgage. Foreign owners. Out of state owners. Lease options. Properties just listed or going back to any date I choose. Properties based on commission rates. Lis Pendens. I can search any key word in the remarks or description sections. And all this can be set up as an automatic notification watch list. Also I can see the complete property history including who sold it, how many times they changed Realtors, price changes. I can see the broker remarks. And more! I list some of the things at http://realtytraining.org
However, most Realtors and Investors don't know how to customize the program to do these things but the ones that hire me learn how.
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APOCALYPSEFUCK isFrank Sinatra says
LOL, You never stop coming up with GREAT ones...
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You Lowlife says
Professional??? hmmmm... here's my real life experience...
Realtor I used for last house sales "claimed" to be the "most knowledgeable" in the area. He did have the most listings and I always saw his signs, so I game him a call.
Turns out, he was indited for a felony for security fraud and spent years in jail.. he was able to come out and get his realtor's license... go figure, someone who ripped off his investors gets to come out and get a license to deal with the public again in the financial arena (this time selling the most important "investment" in a person's lifetime!!)
What other "professional" (attorney, physician, etc.) would be able to get a new licenses after a felony conviction?? I don't think you can group Realtors in the same group with attorneys and doctors.
My past realtor (self proclaimed expert) wasn't worth the $495. I paid him...
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Call it Crazy says
PatNet should maintain a list of Realtor®s and unaffiliated realty agents with convictions. If the law enforcement community cared about white collar crime something of this sort should be run as an adjunct list to the sex offender registries.
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Marietta, GA
The doctor who graduated last in his class is still called doctor. Few are better at keeping the least common denominator in the profession than doctors. All occupations have members that range from the brilliant to the incompetent. Those who gripe about paying reasonable fees, get the representative who work for peanuts, and get the service, knowledge and experience that goes with it. As a REALTOR with 33 years experience over 4000+ closed transactions, my clients and I are thankful for all of you chose not to be represented. In the words of the Wolf, "Come closer my child so I might better see you" You are eaten by the party with the better representation. Only the fool chooses not to be represented or refuses to pay for quality representation.
As a REALTOR with 33 years experience over 4000+ closed transactions, my clients and I are thankful for all of you how chose not to be represented or pay convicts 495 to be the your representative in the largest and most complex financial transaction in your life. In the words of the Wolf, "Come closer my child so I might better see you" You are eaten by the party with the better representation. Only the fool chooses not to be represented or refuses to pay for quality representation.
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Los Angeles, CA
Yes there there seems to be a huge increase in nigerian pastors renting their Bay Area SFR's from Nigeria. We should have invaded that fooking country, Iraq never did nuthin to us.
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Marietta, GA
It is not unethichal to aggressively represent your client which I do with enthusiasm and skill. If that means gutting of those of you too stupid or cheap to hire a professional, it is not bragging it is capitalism. The world is controlled by survival of the fittest. Those of you who think you can do it yourself are destined to be eaten buy those who understand the value of a professional advocate.
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Bruce Ailion says
That is great! And I'm willing to pay 6% for good representation because I don't want to waste my own time on back and forth during the negotiation process.
Just don't compare Realtors to doctors and attorneys and make it an argument for earning your commission. Actually, I found a few accountants and finance majors who are Realtors. They either treat that as a part-time work or just realize that it is easier work for better money.
It is what it is, easy job for easy money. You have to know how to bulshit people and who is naive enough to be bulshitted to. Do not make up the whole ideology of something so simple just to justify it.
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Marietta, GA
If it was that profitable and easy 90 percent would not leave the field in the first 5 years. I make more as a REALTOR than I could as an attorney. As an attorney it is easy to out negotiate the average REALTOR still I work with REALTORS with only a high school diploma that do an outstanding job representing their clients. The savvy consumer can hire the best for essentially the same price as hiring the worst. To the uninformed it looks simple. To the top performers it is simple for them.
Every try installing a garage door opener. You can spend 8 hours and perhaps get it done or hire the expert who does 4-5 installations a day and does in in 45 minutes and gets it right the first time.
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Bruce Ailion says
Why do we hire professionals in the first place?
1. Either we cannot handle something ourselves (not enough knowledge or skills)
2. Or we could handle it ourselves but our time is more valuable (it costs us less to use someone's services than to do it by ourselves.
If, like people claim here, we have to hire someone because there is the control of the information or market and we see an abuse because of that then no wonder people are upset.
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The key issue here is we need to have these choices.
There were some days in my life I prefered to do some house work myself than hire 'a professional'. I might like the process of learning how to correctly install the garage door or simply I need to save some money.
My 8 hours of work would produce this same outcome, fixed garage door plus some money stay in my pocket.
In the Real Estate business you are telling me that "good luck" you are going to be eaten by 'professionals'. What choices do I have?
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Calling a Realtor® a 'professional' is like calling someone convicted of bestial rape a veterinarian.
Disband the NAR!
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GraooGra says
I've also seen housewives, failed contractors and convicted felons (like I mentioned above) who jumped in to be realtors so they could make "the big bucks" (or they thought).
I'm not sure you can call these people "professionals" when they can earn their license by taking an on-line coorespondence class for a short period of time...
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GraooGra says
Good point... so why don't realtors charge the BUYER by the hour for their services just like attorneys, accountants and other service related business.
Why is it that we have to be "handcuffed" to a flat rate of 6%??
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Reston, VA
How many Realtor's would it take to install a garage door opener?
Somehow, I think that
one would start a national association of garage door opener installers,
one would lobby congress to make it illegal for home owners to install garage doors,
one would get insurance,
one would hire a broker to the correct bank to finance the garage door,
one would hire a lawyer to try to prevent other garage door installation prices from being listed on non approved web sites,
ninety seven would try to install a garage door, fail, and go work at McDonalds,
two would patrol web sites telling home owners that they will fail miserably if they try to install a garage door,
and one would install the door.
I'm thinking about 105 should cover it.
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
GraooGra says
I've met many people who got licensed just so they could have the inside track and save some commission buying and selling their home. It's not that hard or expensive to get licensed. If someone is bellyaching about "control of information" it means they don't have the patience, literacy level, or the minor commitment it takes to get licensed. Heck, you can even do the school online.
If Realtors are so dumb and incompetent just imagine those in this business who don't even have what it takes to make it to the "inside." If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. If you can't join 'em, hate 'em? Is that the path to success?
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Efficient Life Church says
I think you made that comment before and that made me think to do this same. I even went to the Real Estate exam and licensing web site for CA. You need to finish 3 courses for the exam. It might cost you around $300 plus some time and that is all. Of course it is easier for people who already have some other college level schooling but it is nothing really special. The biggest thing they have to have or learn to stay in this business is sales skills.
They don’t need to show me houses. I'm waiting for prices to go down since 2008. I know every single track, every single floor plan in my neighborhood. I know for how much each house would sell and didn’t make a mistake in my judgment too much. Sometimes $5k to $8k either way but it is good for “unprofessional” outsider I think. I went through 3 separate buyers Realtors, put 5 offers so far, read a few books about the process. I understand finances and I understand macroeconomics really well. The only problem is that I don’t have an access to the expanded MLS information and in the short sale situations they only want to talk to a Realtor. BTW it is sometimes difficult to get a hold of the sales agent if you are not a Realtor. They don’t pick up their phones. Also I cannot get a key code to the vacant properties. What else do I need? I have a lender. I can get an inspector and a title company on my own. I started to think why shouldn’t I do it on my own?
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Reston, VA
ELC,
Thanks for this. It is helpful.
Efficient Life Church says
Congress is putting out information on voting records in a structured format. That allows third party sites like this http://www.govtrack.us/ to easily reuse the data. I think opening the MLS in this way would go a long way.
If a diy seller could enter their house in the MLS & the average diy buyer could access it freely, then Realtors would have to compete for business. People who want to pay a Realtor could do so. Others could do it themselves.
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GPL the MLS!
Disband the NAR!
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Efficient Life Church says
Another good point!!
How many people do you know got their accountant's degree so they could save money doing their taxes??
How many people do you know became a attorney so they could save money by writing their own wills??
How many people do you know who became an M.D. so they could save on their surgery??
I know many who studied and took the test to become a realtor to save money on their house purchase..
So, to group realtors as professionals in the above groups doesn't fly with me, sorry!!
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Call it Crazy says
It wouldn't matter how many years it took for a Realtor to get licensed there would still be bad Realtors. The more you know about a subject the easier you can spot someone who's incompetent. You probably interact with Realtors so you realize what's out there. I also train lawyers on Lexis-Nexis and Doctors to switch them over to digital records. If you only knew what falls through the cracks. A lifetime of education won't help someone with low self esteem or someone with no common sense. The damage bad doctors and lawyers do pales in comparison to what Realtors do. What helps a little is most doctors and lawyers often have a staff and colleagues to cover for them. Unfortunately most Realtors handle every aspect of their business and hesitate consulting with anyone when they're in over their heads.
Yet I had a Realtor hire me who knew just about everything I showed him. When I asked why would you pay me $300 when you're already an expert, he said, "if you can show me just one thing I didn't already know it's worth it." That Realtor would call me every year or so to come out again just in case I learned a new trick. And the kicker is he was blind since birth and used a screen reader! So there are some really exceptional people out there. It just takes some effort to find them.
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YesYNot says
I thought so too when I started to work at BuyOwner. The more deals I did the more it blew my mind how many things can go wrong in a real estate transaction. I compiled a list for my presentation book that had about twenty things on the buyers side and twenty on the sellers side and the list was growing! I'll try to find it.
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Efficient Life Church says
I agree to that statement, but unfortunately, these are the exceptions, not the rule.
I've dealt with a bunch of realtors over the years, and the bulk of them are in it only for what they think are the "big bucks". Many were very nice but far from what I would call "professionals". When the "cost" of entry into a profession is so low, it will attract a LOT of bottom feeders....
You can choose who you want to use as a "buyers" agent but sometimes you don't realize their incompendence until you get down the road a way, and then it's tough to back away.
You're usually "stuck" with the "sellers" agent and can't do anything about them and have to make the best of it...
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Marietta, GA
Right you as a seller you want to provide any time access to anyone who wants to your home.
You as a buyer want to give a seller access to your driver’s license and credit information to determine if you can really buy prior to entering the property.
By the way before starting this a couple of take 4-6 hours of self-defense training classes to know how to spot and deal with suspicious and or violent characters.
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jvolstad says
as one realtor told me, they like money. That's why they are in the business.
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Housing Prices Are Cratering says
There's plenty of Realtors who are willing to meet the buyer's agent at the property if you don't want to use a lock box. But then you'll have two shady characters alone in your house doing God knows what on your bed. :)
Like it or not you are shooting yourself in the foot BIG TIME if you don't give unrestricted access to your home. Like someone else mentioned, experienced Realtors know when circumstances aren't ideal. Only the desperate ones waste their time with unmotivated buyers and sellers and no COMBO lockbox or any other restrictive conditions or stupid broker remarks like "don't use the toilet" is the writing on the wall. Life's too short...
Also, these days if you don't demand a 3 bureau credit report from the buyer you're going to be very sorry. Forget about pre-qualifications or pre-approvals. They're worthless to a seller. It's only so a buyer's agent knows they're dealing with someone willing to jump through their hoop and to get them hooked up with their mortgage broker. Don't sign anything or take anyone seriously until you see an up to date credit report. When I hear FHA it makes my skin crawl too. But these are the times we live in.
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
GraooGra says
That's the benefits of being licensed. Expanded MLS and lockbox codes. The benefit of being a broker is you can list your own properties. Once you're licensed MLS access will cost you $200-800 depending on where you live. For example in Florida it's most expensive because you will be forced to join the local state and National Association of Realtors paying each of them their fee in addition to MLS access. How's that for a racket!
If you're not good with school convince your spouse, relative or someone close to you to get licensed then work as their assistant. However if you stick to it you'll eventually succeed. The tests are hard but in most states you can keep taking the test (for a fee) until you pass. I saw a Haitian who barely spoke English pass on their first try. I've trained offices in Miami where they don't speak a lick of English and they had to use a translator. Somehow they passed even before there was a test in Spanish as there is now.
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Also, I have always said, “There is Really NO such thing as a Buyer’s Agent”. Why? Because Buyers Agents are paid a percentage of the sales price and the higher the sales price, the more money the Buyer’s Agent makes. The Buyer’s Agent will Always pretend like they are there to protect the Buyer, they will point out obvious flaws with the properties that anyone with ½ a brain can read in the remarks or see for themselves to try to gain the Buyers confidence. Once they know they have the buyer’s confidence, they will not be completely honest on how low the property should sell for. They will always opt to push for the higher sales price.
I’ve had several RE Agents get angry with me when I told them how much I want to bid and some have basically told me, “Well if the sellers would sell that low, I would snatch it up for that price and flip the property for a profit.” A few times I saw the properties I asked the Agents to submit a bid for sell for less than what I tried to get the real estate agent to write the contract for. Later I found out Real Estate Agents bought the properties for themselves and they did flip the properties for their own profits.
If “Buyers Agents” really existed the system would work something like this: Based on ACCURATE CMA’s, the Buyers Agent will get .5% in addition to his 3% commission for every 5% Below the CMA the property sells for. If the property sells for 5% more than the CMA value, the Buyer’s Agents gets .5% deducted from his commission.
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Marietta, GA
Just because you've attended 4 years of college 3 years of law school and passed the bar to call yourself an attorney does not make you someone I'd hire to handle even a simple matter. Just as I would not go to LegalZoom and attempt to handle the matter on my own without training. 90% of flying a plane is like driving a bus, the pilots are paid the big bucks for their experience, training and ability for the 10% of the time a higher skill set is needed. So to, most jackasses can do 90% of the REALTORS job, it's the 10% do it yourselfers will never be able to do that represent their biggest value to the transaction. Chances are you will never need a seat belt or an air bag, try to buy a new car without one. It's only the day you need them that you appreciate them being part of the auto.
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I agree with EconPete's main post.
Also, I have always said, “There is Really NO such thing as a Buyer’s Agent”. Why? Because Buyers Agents are paid a percentage of the sales price and the higher the sales price, the more money the Buyer’s Agent makes. The Buyer’s Agent will Always pretend like they are there to protect the Buyer, they will point out obvious flaws with the properties that anyone with ½ a brain can read in the remarks or see for themselves to try to gain the Buyers confidence. Once they know they have the buyer’s confidence, they will not be completely honest on how low the property should sell for. They will always opt to push for the higher sales price.
Years ago I’ve had several RE Agents get angry with me when I told them how much I want to bid and some have basically told me, “Well if the sellers would sell that low, I would snatch it up for that price and flip the property for a profit.” A few times I saw the properties I asked the Agents to submit a bid for sell for less than what I tried to get the real estate agent to write the contract for. Later I found out Real Estate Agents bought the properties for themselves and they did flip the properties for their own profits.
If “Buyers Agents” really existed the system would work something like this: Based on ACCURATE CMA’s, the Buyers Agent will get .5% in addition to his 3% commission for every 5% Below the CMA value the property sells for. If the property sells for 5% more than the CMA value, the Buyer’s Agents gets .5% deducted from his commission.
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I am writing this not for those that have such a negative opinion. This response is to inform those who may really care about some facts.
First there is a difference between a REALTOR and a real estate agent. A REALTOR must abide by an oath to follow the Code of Ethics and that holds us to a higher standard meaning we must put our clients first. If that is not the exprlerience you have had then you need to file a complaint with that agents' state licensing body or the association they belong to.
Here is what Realtors ARE responsible for:(note all of these are consumer focused). Again, I am speaking about Realtors NOT licensees :
*REALTORS fought for the the $500,000 capital gains tax exemption when selling your primary residence. For single people $250,000 exemption
*REALTORS have been fighting for a long term extension of flood insurance because Congress keeps using it as a hold out in order.to get other bills signed. Without flood insurance properties that need it cannot close. According to govt numbers that is over 3000 closings per day that will not happen for each day there is a gap in flood insurance. It is currently expired and has a 60 day extension
*REALTORS are fighting to prevent Government from abusing eminent domain so property is not wrongfully taken from property owners to increase tax base
*REALTORS are fighting for responsible lending but NOT requiring 20% down which woud exclude over 70% of those with excellent credit that would otherwise be able to buy a home. This will definitely slow the housing recovery and therefore values recovering.
*REALTORS fight at the local, state and federal level preventing regulations that would put unfair burdens on current homeowners
*REALTORS are fighting with the government about the federally imposed regulations on appraisers that force appraisers.to use foreclosures as comparable even when there are sales to support a sales price. Appraisers are now in the fight along side us
*REALTORS have successfully fought with regulators to remove fees imposed on certain loans that would go towards funding the health care bill
*REALTORS are fighting so credit unions have more ability to fund commercial loans. This would help the commercial market rebound.
These are just a handful of things REALTORS DO having nothing to do with commission. I can tell you many cases where a homeowner thought they could sell on their own, screwed up their own deal to then call for help happy to pay the fee for our service. Same for buyers who don't know what to ask for or how to negotiate. Do some buyers and sellers have success on their own? Absolutely but it is NOT the majority.
Nobody forces anyone to use a REALTOR, it is a choice someone makes. I have known buyers to pay way over what they should have due to inexperience and the excitement of buying a home and I have seen sellers sell WAY too low, again, due to inexperience. Yes, you could argue the fee is high but calculate the cost of screwing up your own deal and I will bet you would be happy to use a professional. Banks require homeowners who wish to short sale their home to use a REALTOR and forbid them to act on their own behalf
RE: What it takes to get a real estate license....as a consumer who would hire a REALTOR you probably want someone who treats their profession as a career and not a part time hobby. That person would have designations and certifications indicating they are constantly interested in learning how to best meet the needs of their clients. There are a lot of REALTORS so ask the right questions instead of hiring a friend or an agent that sells only one or two houses a year.
While I realize I probably won't change the minds of the avid "haters" hopefully some others will now know that we do function outside working to earn a living which I did not think was unusual
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Sunnyvale, CA
CBM says
Exactly.
That's why we hired a real-estate lawyer with a three-year JD graduate degree to look after our legal interests on two out of the last three properties we sold (we used a company provided Realtor(TM) for the third because that way my relocation package covered all the transaction costs including commissions plus a gross-up to cover income taxes on that benefit versus nothing for any other home sale method).
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Reston, VA
A REALTOR® is defined as
A real estate agent is a REALTOR® when he or she is a member of the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS®, The Voice for Real Estate® -- the world's largest professional association.
http://www.realtor.com/Basics/AllAbout/Realtors/WhatIs.asp?source=web
A REALTOR® doesn't fight for anything. They just pay their tithe to the NAR(R), which allows them to claim superiority over all of the non-members. They also agree to uphold a code of ethics, but that seems to be a sham.
The NAR® is a typical trade group that charges membership fees, lobbies for laws that benefit the industry at the expense of others, spends millions on adverts, hires an 'economist' to give official economic prognostications that benefit the industry, and gives car rental discounts at Hertz.
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Margaret Has A HorseFace says
Hehehehehehehehe!
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Beverly Hills, CA
Everyone knows that. We need an encore. How about encouraging them to sky dive without a parachute. Geronimo!
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Mill Valley, CA
As a counterpoint to all this animosity towards real estate agents....
After 9+ years, we're buying again. While I think there is a good slide in prices to come, we simply waited thru enough of the zaniness and back on the other side now. We have good income and FICO...we have been quite purposefully renting and are now on our 3rd house. The current owner of this house is getting re-married and will move back here - so our choices were to look for another rental (rents up about 10% the past couple years here in San Fran area) or buy.
We judged the least of our pain to be buying right now (we had a HORRIBLE landlord for the first 5 of those rental years). Tho prices haven't dropped quite as much as hoped (maybe 20% around here from peak), but the 3% mortgage rates today are simply helping the monthly nut a lot.
Anyhow, we had some complex last contingencies to drop before the house transaction moves forward (based on appraisal, pest and home inspection done last week). Our agent, a totally buttoned up lady down the street, has been available via email and phone every single day for a week to discuss these issues and sort them thru. She set up the Pest and Home Inspectors - and they were both total pros. She set us up with an insurance agent - and that ins agent beat the pasts off AAA and GEICO (both of whom I contacted) in price for homeowners.
Further, both last nite and the nite before we had thorny issues to overcome with the sellers and we had conversations about it at 10PM.
Truly, this lady gets the bronze start for efforts and is earning every bit of the 1.5-2.0% she gets from this transaction from the sellers (no agent makes 3%; that's generally shared with the agency). She's every bit as good as she advertised herself to be to us.