WatchI am needing some suggestions about how to educate myself to be a better investor. I have read a lot of basic stuff on personal finance. I am needing to take some next steps and an not feeling confident on what to do.
I am a good saver. I have minimal debt (student loan at very low interest). I need to know what to do with the cash I am saving. I am not sure how to proceed.
It has been a while, but I have read The Millionaire Next Door, a book about paying yourself first, lots of Suze Orman, I have found them to be useful in organizing files, setting up allotments to retirement and savings, making a trust, setting up life insurance, etc., but less useful in helping me figure out how to invest. THey were more helpful to me in solidifying things I already suspected. Namely, stay out of debt and save money.
I have tried reading this forum, but my experience of it is that it is more of an economics forum than an investing forum. That may be due to my lack of experience in translating economic phenomenon into specific investments.
Any suggestions appreciated.
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Hermosa Beach, CA
fool.com is a good resource for education and information.
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San Jose, CA
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bg,
It all comes down to your risk tolerance. What kind of returns are you looking for? What's the time frame for investment on this money? Do you have a 401k match at your workplace? Do you max out your contribution?
At your current rate of savings, will you have enough money when you're retired? I suggest you figure out how much money you'd need in your golden years and work it backward. I know the number will be terrifying, but it's reality.
At the present time, savers are being punished. When people start to lose faith in the U.S. currency due to our massive printing of money, we might experience hyperinflation and the savers will get wiped out. Only hard assets will hold their value. Of course I don't know the timing or the likelihood of it happening.
From history, it's deflation first, then hyperinflation. Hyperinflation happens very fast. It is as fast as the run on banks. Yes, it happens in days, not years. I came from a country that had experienced hyper-inflation 3 times so I only believe in hard assets, especially income-producing assets like real estate. :o)
We experienced deflation briefly in 2008, but the Fed put a floor on that. Although housing has been experiencing deflation, but other sectors of the economy is still expanding. With cheap money being available right now to qualified borrowers and corporations, and essentially little interest on savings for savers, it seems like everyone is chasing yields at the moment. So you're not the exception.
I gotta go now. Get back to this later. :o)
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Santa Cruz, CA
The answer depends on bg's age and the purpose of the money.
The #1 priority of any person working should be acummulate capital for retirement. To appreciate capital, stocks have the best potential. To have $1 million when you are retired can cost $1 million if you just use a bank account, so this is not practical.
So, you should ideally save as much as possible and buy 1. Roth IRA 2. contribute max to work retirement. These should ideally be mostly in stock mutual funds.
An example of a stock mutual fund that I like that is managed is Fidelity Contrafund. See what companies it has in the huge diverse portfolio.
You can also buy just an index fund and you will match the return of the stock market as a whole.
Generally speaking, as you age and are closer to retirement, bond funds are suggested. This is now a defunct approach since interest rates are absurdly low, except high yield corporate bond funds. You can use some of those to add to stock mutual funds someday if you like.
Buy mutual funds that say domestic, international and exclude the esoteric ones like "emerging markets" "russia" "china" "science and tech" "communications" etc. The good international funds will have a few emerging market picks in them. The goood domestic will have a few good specialty stocks in them.
Gloom and doom is nonsense because between now and when you want to quit working, the world's GDP has still grown and many companies are making ever growing profits. E.G. Apple, Exxon, Monsanto, Deere, Caterpillar, BMW, LVMH, Nestle, etc. You don't want to miss out on those incredible profits for the next three decades.
When you are older and have a ton of money in stock mutual funds you can then decide to slowly spend them down, exchange some for bond funds and live off interest, buy an annuity for guaranteed income, or the combination of all of these.
Mutual fund companies like T.Rowe Price, Vanguard, will help you with this before you start and in the future.
I could mention my mutual funds but a few of my favorites are closed to new investors at the moment.
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Santa Cruz, CA
Read the guides at Vanguard, T.Rowe Price, if they are online. Maxfunds.com is fun to compare mutual funds, just for fun.
Having money is also a state of mind. I have many friends who cannot hang onto money. They either love travel and restaurants, or can't stop buying stuff (once called "material objects"=MOs), or have spendthrift wives and children, etc.
Once you decide you want to have a shitload of dough in your future you can achieve it by investing. But, it's a pain sometimes and your friends make fun of you.
I have a toyota pickup which I love to death. One friend teased me about it, another guy said he thought I was a cheapskate for preferring Mcdonald's coffee for $1 to Starbucks. And the same guys wanted me to lend them money. See how it works?
Some of us were young and studly and met lots of chicks. If you think having no money in your old age will help you meet chicks, I have bad news for you.
Others may say it isn't important and it's off the subject entirely. Well, I'm still as interested in that as I was 20 years ago. Food for thought.
Married, symps, milquetoasts, etc. may flame this comment.
Hit the gym, save money, buy mutual funds. You're all set.
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BG, like you, I got some ideas from Millionaire Next Door, mainly on how to live than how to invest, because living like a next door millionaire can foster a situation where one can invest. I guess in Cool and Hip YuppieTalk you could call it a "strategy".
Now then, when one has some spare cash to invest per month or paycheck or whatever, next comes how to invest it. Much of what I learned on how to invest (Yuppie-Talk "tactics") is from Bob Brinker's "Money Talk" show that I have listened to for many weekends the past two decades.
http://www.bobbrinker.com/
Good luck.
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Pacifica, CA
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Thank you for the comments.
I am 42. I got out of grad school and started making more serious money when I was 35. I was a happy-go-lucky intellectual before that.
My job has a 401 K and a match. I put 16.5K in it a year. What I put in goes into a 2030 life cycle fund. I also save about 1300 dollars a month in cash. When I thought I was going to maybe try to buy a house, I stopped funding my Roth. I have 13K in student loans at 1.65%. My MINT.com summary says I net worth is 167K. I totally agree with Clambo. I like McD's coffee just fine. Mostly, I just make my own at home :-)
I worry some about things like what E-man says, currency losing it's value. Living in a frugal way, I have more cash than assets. I do agree with Patrick though, and think that you don't own a house when you have a huge mortgage. So buying a house with a big mortgage is hard to "file" under "asset".
I am going to go read and watch the things you all suggested. I also think there is a good point in there about being punished as a saver right now. I need to find stocks to help grow my money. Cash sitting seems like a lame idea.
My dilemma is exactly what BACAH is saying. I have money. How do I invest it?
The purpose of the money would be: 1. Retirement, 2. buy a house at some point, 3. Son's college,
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I should have said this in my first post. Thank you guys for your comments and suggestions.
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bg,
Reading between the lines of E-man's postings, he sounds like he either fled from the Communists in Vietnam or else his parents did. For people like that, it was probably physical gold that got them out, not paper scrip money from a collapsing South Vietnamese regime, nor "financial assets" like equities, bonds and the like. It is hardly surprising that he values physical assets like being a landlord and renting out property.
It is prudent to "invest" instead of just hoarding paper money, but I would not worry about the USA collapsing like South Vietnam. We have too many nukes and too many gun nuts for that to happen. And if we did unravel like South Vietnam or Mad Max, rental property or gold are probably not the way to go. Instead, you should have your own personal arsenal.
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bg says
It depends on how much you want to learn. Buy some books from these guys to read. I bet you can get some really good education for cheap.
Peter Lynch
Benjamin Graham
Warren Buffett
Have you talked to a CFA?
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Pacifica, CA
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I did talk to one CFA. All the stuff he wanted me to sign sounded like he wanted me to invest in a bunch of stuff that paid all kinds of load and commissions up front. This made me nervous. I would rather pay him hourly for advice rather than paying a percentage. Is that naive to want to avoid that?
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Be your own " 'non-C' FA".
Everybody hiring all these people all of the time just aids and abets the whole "finance" industry.
Some of the people who were wiped out by Bernie Madoff didn't even know it because their "personal financial advisor" had "invested" in Madoff's fund.
Do you really need someone who got some high-falootin' sounding certificate to tell you some common sense? Even worse, to pay them for their 'precious' time?
If I were a financial advisor I would've put myself out of business, because I would've directed the client on what to read and what to learn to be his own advisor. Including, insisting for the sake of his own privacy that he not tell me nor anyone else his personal finance situation.
Clambo's posts on his personal stuff sound like he's a total *ssh*le, but on the personal finance part he sounds spot on.
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B.A.C.H. I am always surprised how many people assume I am a man ;-) I am good on the "chick" front, but I do want to keep up with my athletic husband!
I can take the advice about hitting the gym, just with different goals in mind. That is good for everybody!
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bg, i did not assume you were a man. I thought perhaps a woman because of the wording of the original post, fitting a pattern i have seen before on patrick.net.
Anyway, be your own Financial Advisor.
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bg says
That sounds like the wrong CFA that you talked to. :o)
Ok. Let's go through some investment choices.
1) the stock market - I guess you can do what other posters suggested above, or you can invest in companies that you believe in like MCD, SBUX, GE, CAT, VZ, T, etc.....
2) physical gold - it is not an investment to me because it pays no dividend. I consider it more of a hedge against currency devaluation.
3) real estate investment trust (REIT) - you might want to do some research in this area. There are some publicly traded REITs, and there are some private REITs. They pay decent dividends and they tend to do well in the long run. There are mant different type of REITs such as apartment, retail, healthcare, etc......
4) out of state real estate investment - this can be very profitable in fly over states. However, the property manager is the one that will either make or break the deal. If you have a good one, the cashflow can be fantastic. If you have a bad one, he will siphon-off all of your profit, and you have a huge headache. How do you like making others rich with your hard earned money and your investment? It's not fun isn't it? :-)
5) real estate locally - this is the path I have chosen for myself. Why locally? You know the market. You can engage a property manager if you want to. You can solve tenant issues immediately without too much hassle. With real estate, you can leverage 4 to 1 on a typical investment. Therefore a 3% appreciation will give you 12% return on your investment. In addition, the tenant is paying off your mortgage, and you get positive cashflow (dividend) every month. If done correctly, you can leverage 9:1. Yep a 27% annual return on 3% appreciation.
In a deflation period, interest rate will drop. You can refinance & increase your monthly return or to safeguard from the rent drop. In an inflation period, rent tends to go up with inflation and your cashflow would also increase. You can use the dividend to pay-off the mortgage sooner, or you can save it for a rainy day.
In your golden years, you will have steady income coming in each month regardless of what might happen to social security. When you're dead, your son will inherit a cash cow, or your son can move into one of these properties when you're ready to give it to him.
With real estate, you determine your destiny. Everything else is a big casino to me. I understand landlording is not for everyone, but it can be a rewarding experience if done correctly. I picked up a RE investment partner on Patnet, and he's really into it now and very much enjoy it. I know it sounds crazy, but don't let the naysayers prevent you from doing it. You should appreciate them. Because of their negative attitude towards it, it creates an opportunity with less competition. :-)
If RE investment sounds like something of interest to you, I suggest you study your local market. Imagine you can get a steady $1,500/month return on your $150k investment. My partner & I are currently working on a deal in Santa Clara where we will get $2,000/month return on an $80k investment excluding the principal pay down of $800/month. This is the time of opportunity. Try to capitalize on it. :-)
My partner is in San Carlos so he might be able to give you some inputs in your neck of the woods. The dude is very smart and extremely analytical. He's so smart that he makes me look stupid. If you want his contact info, send Patrick Killea an email, and he should be able to give you his contact info. He's a really nice dude and very generous with his time.
Best of luck with whatever you decide to do with your money. America is the land of opportunity. Please don't let the naysers get in the way. Let the numbers be your guidance & trust your instinct. :-)
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Billerica, MA
E-man,
Excellent info ! I am in Boston area, seeking same kind of situation you describe. Can you point me to info, or more fully describe, how the leverage on property works ? I refer to the following sentences in your post:
"Therefore a 3% appreciation will give you 12% return on your investment. In addition, the tenant is paying off your mortgage, and you get positive cashflow (dividend) every month. If done correctly, you can leverage 9:1. Yep a 27% annual return on 3% appreciation."
Maybe its obvious, but i dont get it. Thank you !
T
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Bronx, NY
I'm going to take a stab and guess that he means you put 25% down, borrow the rest. 400k house means 100k down, 3% appreciation means you now have a house valued at ~412k. Not sure how to get a loan to value ratio of 9-1 though.
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Emeryville, CA
bg says
What do you guys think about a 529 plan?
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CL,
I'm not a fan of the 529 plan. I thought the government could do much better. So you contribute after tax money & the gain is tax free provided it is being used for education purposes. To me, it is similar to a Roth IRA in a sense.
I can do much better investing in RE than the 529 plan, but I might be an exception not the rule. I think 529 plan is a joke. You likely won't save enough money for your kids' education with this plan.
That's my take on it. :o)
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T,
What woppa mentioned above. I'll reiterate it with round numbers to make things easier.
Say you buy a $100k property with $25k down and $75k loan. So 3% appreciation = $3k. $3k divided by $25k investment = 12% return.
If you buy a property at the courthouse steps for 80 cents on the dollar. You take out a $75k loan. You have $5k tied up in the property. So a 3% appreciation = $3k. $3k/$5k = 60% return.
See how leverage works? We have a couple of properties that we leveraged 10:1 and 20:1 and still have positive cashflow so I'm speaking from personal experience, and not gurus talk to sell their motivational materials. :o)
Don't feel bad if you don't get it the first time. It's always a learning curve for all of us. I didn't know I was capable of doing it until I pulled it off in 2010 with 20:1 leverage, and I still get over 40% cash on cash return. So appreciation is only icing on the cake. remember that 1% appreciation = 20% return on your investment with 20:1 leverage. However, if shit it the fan, your loss would also be magnified. Leverage is a double edged sword so be careful.
The goal is to stay as liquid as you can while maximizing your leverage, or it's also known as have other people's money (OPM) works for you. It is a fun and very rewarding adventure. :0)
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Buy low and sell high. Works every time!
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zzyzzx says
If you don't have anything constructive to say, wouldn't be quiet be the best solution? Why are you ruining the OP's thread? Did you take a hike this morning?
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If your timeframe is LONG then owning real estate does make sense. I knew a guy who bought lots of small commercial properties. You know those professional complexes, like where you'd have a dentist, and eyeglass place etc. His point wasn't to make a ton of money off the rent either, some made money some just broke even. Professional offices are much less fickle than apartment renters, they stay a long time. But he kept expanding those holdings, and after 3 decades had dozens. A few got sold for good profit because you know people want to put up apartments, etc. I'm thinking in this direction myself now.
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bg,
Based upon stuff he wrote, I'd say clambo is closer to my age (I have a kid in college) than E-man' age. So you may also notice that clambo and I have more or less encouraged you to teach yourself to be your own F/A. Because we reach a point in life where we are not so interested in boasting about stuff we know as we are in encouraging the next generation to find its own way. You know the saying, feed me versus teaching me to find food.
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Santa Cruz, CA
I dislike the "life cycle funds". Get out of them.
Bogleheads is bullshit by the way. They are completely drunk on the koolaid that you must be balanced, i.e. own bonds equal to your age almost as a percentage.
This won't work today. I was banned from there although many posters liked my posts, go figure.
AAPL stock is going to pay a dividend higher than treasury debt soon. Which is a good thing to own? Hint: they are NOT creating any more shares of AAPL.
My little old lady neighbor is richer than God. She got that way buying and holding stocks for decades. She has had Deere for 60 years for example.
If you want a "buy and forget fund" try T.Rowe Price Capital appreciation, then add in some Small Cap Value, International.
Don't buy a huge % of "international" stock funds, this is what Bogleheads say and I say baloney. 15% or so is just fine.
Vanguard Dividend growth, Fidelity Contrafund, also are good funds.
The question of real estate v stock investment is irrelevant.
One is an investment to live off of and enjoy life, the other is a place to live IN.
If you can afford both, and enjoy the hassle, buy a place. You can always reverse mortgage it and get your money out of it.
If you can afford ONE, invest the hell out of your money in stock mutual funds for your retirement.
My grandmother was a businesswoman ahead of her time. She made money with antiques, buying many from bankrupt formerly rich who were wiped out in the 29 crash. She rented all of her life. I had no idea since she rented a fantastic carriage house with a cobblestone driveway in the Northeast USA. It's probably on the national register today.
She never bought because she abhored debt and she loved cash.
The people who can help you for the least money are Vanguard and T.Rowe Price.
I have no idea what being an asshole means here, I guess that means I have opinions about things like the govt. picking my pocket or rewarding illegals or was it something else I said? :)
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Santa Cruz, CA
I want to add to something BACAH wrote.
I know some people in the business, and I was once very briefly in the business.
They are often broke personally. They are also often completely clueless about investing, current events, and everything else that helps you make rational decisions.
They take several tests to be registered to sell securities. It was previously series 6 and 67. This was about mutual funds and how you can describe them to a client. Essentially you must never suggest a fund you believe the client does not need, e.g. "emerging market stock fund" to 90 year old lady.
Later people got series 7 so they could sell the plans they create for you which Vanguard and T.Rowe Price do for less.
Some guys who would be more completely "educated" in this have the Life Agent license, because for anyone who has a family, life insurance is essential. Those "financial planners" who do not even have Life Agent license are either 1. lazy 2. clueless 3. don't care about your needs 4. don't give a shit.
Of course without that life agent license they cannot tell you about annuities, which in some situations are a good idea. The problem is unless the Var. Annuity came from Vanguard or T.Rowe Price it's probably too expensive.
My variable annuity at Vanguard costs me less to own each year than my Fidelity Contrafund for example. I will not sell either.
For your future reference, if you are in several states like California, you should NOT annuitize your annuity when you retire, because they invented a new tax on annuities (because only "rich" own them).
Those planners who say they only charge a small "management fee" each year are really expensive when you come to think of it.
I would not shuck out that 1% "wrap fee" on my portfolio, that would be in the thousands of dollars per year. Fuck that noise.
You can follow bogleheads in the area of stock mutual fund choice. My first fund for stocks was Vanguard Total Stock Market Index and this is a fine choice for anyone.
I just was annoyed with the Bogleheads saying I needed to be 45% in bonds and 30% international and I said bullshit because of currency risk and bond yields falling, and they kicked my ass out.
Well, I can be kicked out and watch my AAPL which I bought by selling my bond fund, I will be sipping umbrella drinks on a warm beach while attended to by my young "nurse" someday.
You ain't gonna do that with govt. bonds. High Yield Corporate bonds at Vanguard of course is an OK choice when it re-opens.
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My partner is in San Carlos so he might be able to give you some inputs in your neck of the woods. The dude is very smart and extremely analytical. He's so smart that he makes me look stupid.
E-man that is too funny; I thought you were supposed to be showing him the ropes. Anyway, it is good to hear that the partnership is going well. Do you have much anxiety about the Big One wiping out all your investments? That's one I'm wrestling with as I think about investing in RE locally.
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Santa Cruz, CA
Broke financial planner profile:
My friend dates a woman who got an inheritance and spent it on a useless degree. She took some tests and she now works part time for a guy who has lots of clients for his wrap fee business. He also gets commissions.
She is personally able to pay her (controlled) rent, and still owes her college loan. She is 50 and has a NEGATIVE net worth.
She could be your personal financial planner if you made the mistake of strolling into her office.
No one wants to ask the person on the other side of the desk in a suit "are you broke and need to get my money today?"
Believe me they sometimes are.
One TOP earning financial planner I met who is also rich as hell was previously a CAR salesman.
Surgery you can't do yourself. This stuff you can do yourself.
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With all the headwinds we are facing in this country, I am timid of doing anything long term, especially those investment vehicles that are dependent on trusting that the government and those companies won't render all your gains and then some, worthless
My advice would be educate yourself, we are all different and should have different paths to get to our different goals. I remember reading Millionaire Next Door as a child, and thought it rather simple and uninspiring. I also think Taleb spoke poorly of that book in Fooled By Randomness
I'm a gambler, and prefer short term strikes. That being said, I applied to have my trading acct approved for options last week. I plan to risk some scratch on betting against WFC. The puts seem pricy (maybe I'm still confused as to how they work), but I intend to buy some July 31/30/29 WFC puts this week,,,,,
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Madison, WI
Get your own brokerage account, but take it easy until you learn the ropes. I have three investment vehicles, a pension, a 401k, and social security, I have just about zero faith that any of those will be there for me later but I still put money in them.
For the last few years I've been educating myself regarding investing in physical silver and gold, making smaller buys, purchasing quietly through private sellers.
At 42 myself, and single, RE purchase makes little sense to me any longer. When I'm 55 I'll move into a government subsidized retirement community.
Sure RE investment is great, subsidized/propped up by the government, banks, and the backs of your fellow Americans, you really can't lose on that either.
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everything says
uhh... you have no choice but to put money in pension & social.
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Madison, WI
Yes I do. I could quit my job.
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everything says
that's not a choice... is it?
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San Jose, CA
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EBGuy says
We compliment each other well. I get the deal, get it renovated. He would give his inputs on where we should spend the extra money in the improvements to make the place pop. He understands the rental market exceptionally well. So far, he has managed to get them rented on the 1st day they're on the market for a price I would never dare to ask. We would break even on our PITI if rent were to crash 40% from here. So both of us are pretty conservative in our analysis.
With respect to the big players entering the rental market, initially many savvy investors were expecting rent to drop 10%-20%. However, they have changed their minds based on the latest findings/data.
Big players have been buying properties in bulk. They renovated & flipped some. They modified some loans with principal reduction & self-financed the property to the current owner. They rented back some to the current owner or tenant. A small percentage of the properties were written off due to their poor conditions. It's amazing what these guys are doing. They are buying them pretty cheap. Of course they wouldn't show me the ropes. :(
It seems like all investors are hoping for another foreclosure wave to drive down home prices, but banks are much better at playing this game now compared to 2009 so no one is holding their breath. Things have been tough in the real estate industry due to the lack of inventory. How can you buy or flip when there is essentially nothing being auctioned at the steps? :(
I'd say it's time to get off the fence. We're 6 years into the correction now. As long as the property can cashflow, who cares if the market stays flat or takes another small hit. However, there seems to be less opportunity now than a couple of years ago.
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clambo, some of your generalizations about relations between the sexes.
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San Jose, CA
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bg,
Seekingalpha.com is a good place to learn. It's much better than fool.com. Give it a read & let us know what you think.
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Pacifica, CA
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B.A.C.A.H. says
I didn't think you were assuming that.
I am back on this thread reviewing everyone's suggestions. Continuing to try to learn how to fish.
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Read the posts at Bogelheads website and read their wiki pages. They suggest you invest in three index funds at Vanguard with low costs and adjust your asset allocation as needed (you can tweak as needed or add extras, but that's basically it.) Since no one can predict stocks, it's the easiest, safest and lowest cost way to invest. And you do it yourself!
http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page
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cool resource, thanks !
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Mountain View, CA
Read zerohedge.com
There are no easy answers in this completely rigged market/economy but the fundamentals for precious metals are solid for the long term.
Actually, guns, ammo and canned food are deserving of a few thousand of your worthless BERNANKBUX.
And FFS please don't listen to these guys that are leveraged 30:1 in real estate. You're going to get burned doing that.
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Facebooksux says
How goddamn depressing. It's fucking 1953 again.