Crows recognize human faces. Ain't evolution grand?
By Dan8267 Follow Fri, 29 Jun 2012, 8:46pm 3,165 views 26 comments
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Corvidae (Crows, Ravens, Blue Jays, Vulchers, Etc.) have been on Earth for 17 million years or so longer than man. They have had more time to figure things out. They thrive on every continent except Antarctica. What is more interesting than this mpeg shows, is the molested crows will educate other crow communities of that one particular bad masked man.
Ravens (couple pounds larger-arched beak) are significantly more intelligent than crows. American Indians referred to Ravens as providers of inner secrets.
The book "In the company of Crows and Ravens" by Marzluff is very enlightening.
Corvids are yet another animal species given a bad rap by human emotion as opposed to human intellect.
They tend their injured or ill Family members.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbwRHIuXqMU
I understand this crow was NOT taught to do that.
Other Eye opener(s)
http://www.jimmyr.com/blog/Crow_Befriends_a_Cat_344_2007.php
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/a-murder-of-crows/full-episode/5977/
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My favorite part of the Nature series was this ...
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I have always been fascinated with Ravens, when I was a child one of our tenants owned one and he was amazing to watch. The way they look, I have only seen elsewhere in a wild varanid lizard that came too close for comfort during a hike overseas. Though those are also incredibly smart animals too and surely like the Raven, the smartest of their entire class. Ravens are definitely the superior problem solvers though.
Most people cannot comprehend that birds, or even more so, some reptiles are actually pretty smart even by mammal standards.
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Dan8267 says
A pufferfish has spikes and deadly toxin to protect itself from predators. Per the theory of evolution, somehow the pufferfish species had to suffer a brutal deadly attacks over centuries and SURVIVE in order to evolution to change its anatomy and physiology in a radical way. Why a spike ? where does it get the idea it needs a POINTY SPIKE ?
And frankly its even more difficult to develop a final version of a complex toxins, deadly to any predator. How does it figure on creating a deadly toxin. Just thinks up a complex biological formula in its head and produces it?
It is highly unlikely that would have occurred.
The chances that the species of pufferfish would survive its pre-spike/toxin form, and somehow evolve and develop these changes is close to zero.
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thomas.wong1986 says
Low probability, yes. But given the right environment, predator prey relationships, etc, it happens.
I'll explain some basic evolutionary theory below, in high level terms, with no real belief you will suddenly become a believer in evolution, but simply to provide what evolution describes happens. I'm not a fish biologist but if you look at this guys ancestors it might have gone something like this ...
--
Hey, we are fish, and we keep getting eaten. The smaller we are, the more likely larger fish will eat us. Because we are small though, we can hide in cracks of the reef and rocks. It's dangerous when we go out on the reef and feed. It so happens that a few of my cousins have this really weird throat. They can puff it out a bit and make themselves look slightly larger. It's kind of freaky.
Iterate on that a few thousand generations, and because the fish who can puff up have better survivability due to being able to scare predators (fool them into thinking they are larger fish, a bigger portion than they can eat) … you develop puffing up …
The years go by.
A few of these now puffing fish have rougher scales. A few rare cases even have little nubs and are bumpy. Fish predators, who concentrate a lot of nerves in their jaws and mouth, do this because they want to make sure when they grab something they don't injure themselves. (They want to feel things. Same reasons we humans have a bunch of nerve clusters in our hands and mouths.) A few predators take a mouthful of the rougher fish and get spooked and spit them out. Iterate over that a few thousand years and your bumps/rough scales grow into spines. All those spines are, are highly modified scales.
Poison … predator bites the fish, get's bad taste/sever pain due to a chemical … swims away. Wounded prey fish lives to reproduce another day.
--
Embryology and comparative anatomy all show huge evidence for evolution. Whales have fingers in their flippers. A bats wing is just a modified hand. Embryos all look strikingly similar until they begin to deviate later in development, and the closer your relationship in the classification tree, the longer you look similar in development with one another.
What's the point of sex? (besides to have fun) It's to actually encourage mutation and genetic difference! It's advantageous to keep changing and breeding into your species things that help with your species survival. Shuffling genes means you are actually encouraging variation within your population at a greater rate than species who just "clone themselves" (asexual reproduction). Asexual reproduction has far lower rates of genetic variance/mutation.
If you like sex, you believe in evolution. ;)
The odds life exist in the first place is very small. Good thing the universe is so incomprehensibly big.
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rewrew7 says
Awesome. Reminds me of the snowbirding crow
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thomas.wong1986 says
I would explain this, but if you're an adult and you don't know the answer already, it's because you are unwilling the accept the truth no matter how much proof is offered.
There is no excuse for an adult living in a developed nation during the 21st century to not be able to find out and understand how evolution created the pufferfish. You have the entire knowledge of mankind at your fingertips through the Internet. You can learn things in your underwear that the great philosophers and scientists of history would have given their lives to know. Yet, you remain incapable of understanding even the simplest and most obvious observations of evolution. This is just plain willful ignorance.
When you are ready to actually learn and accept the truths of the universe, come back and I'll answer your question. Until then, consider this... If your religion contradicts science, logic, or history, it is your religion that is wrong.
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thomas.wong says
Dan8267 says
There may not be an excuse for it, but there is a deliberate reason for it.
People do stuff. They have reasons for doing stuff. In that order.
The key to understanding humanity and evolution is to first understand what "intention" means, how it is applied, and where it is absent in nature.
The question answers itself "Where does it get the idea it needs a pointy spike?". It doesn't. Nature is a continuously changing morass of combination and recombination of possible "defects". Any particular "species" is a statistical bell-shaped curve, with the majority (what we call "normal" or the "mean") in the middle of the hump. The real question to understanding evolution is "Why NOT a pointy spike?" The answer is "Because all of the billions of iterations without pointy spikes didn't survive."
The view of evolution is a hindsight view of 20/20 vision, looking back at all of the successful mutations (because the unsuccessful ones are so uniquely dead (rather than recurring in many places), we don't find any examples to fill in the missing part of our logic). Unsuccessful mutations mostly don't survive their initial development, let alone a 3-legged calf running away from a cheetah. The majority of the evidence of evolution is DIGESTED by the successful ones. THAT's what life is all about: eating things and making babies that survive to make more babies. For every spikey pufferfish, there were many many non-spikey ones that got lucky and survived amid many many that weren't so lucky. Eventually, "luck favored the prepared" and the spiky ones became the middle of the bell curve. There are still non-spikey ones (unless the gene tied to the poison or the spike or both is critical to bodily function also by now) that simply get eaten, so we don't see them.
As for why people in the 21st century still don't understand it, you have to consider that we live in a consumer world. The most successful religions and belief systems (capitalism especially) are those that control information. The bell curve of survival for humans favors ignorance of some information in some way in order to fit civilized societies. A human that knows and expresses all of the facts about our existence does not last long in polite company. Ignorance is a major component of civilization. Religions thrive on convincing people to ignore every other religion but their own, and to follow hard and fast dogmas about the world. This is how they establish dominance over their flock of followers: by teaching them to NOT know certain things.
The significance of the story about corvids is not that crows and ravens are so smart, but that humans are not as much smarter than other animals as we think we are, and our "intelligence" is too often random action or instinctive response to conditioning, hormones, or even imagined stimuli, and not as premeditated/intentioned as we think it is.
Civilization is successful because of the conditioning of culture and herd instincts, not because people are so goddamned smart.
If humans were actually as intentional as we tell ourselves we are, we wouldn't need religion, law or the Invisible Hand Job to "guide" us toward our future. We would actually think about the great-grandchildren who will be living on the dregs of what we consume or create.
The bullies of humanity tell us they are successful because they "worked" for it intentionally, but what they did was simply ignore the consequences of their actions and take everything they could. Some get lucky and their luxurious lifestyles inspire others to be bullies just like them.
Unfortunately, the bell curve of humanity is now a very narrow spike, with a few bullies at the mean Mean, and everyone else flattened into being "consumers" and "customers" and "employees" to feed the spike. This cannot end well in any sense of the natural universe.
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rewrew7 says
Apology in advance for this stream of consciousness:
The payment for sex is death, in other words (even though some partners might make you wish for it when you wake up....).
If we were perfect creations, we wouldn't die from aging and reproduction would be very rare (just enough to make up for random events...and if you follow creationists, nothing would be random because "God works in mysterious ways.").
Randomness ain't so much mysterious as fuc.in' scary. Humans prefer imagined knowns (unknown knowns) to unknown unknowns.
We evolved that way because imagining there might be a lion hiding in the grass is a more successful evolutionary trait than not imagining one when there IS one.
Paranoia is a survival trait.
What is the concept of God but manifestation of ultimate paranoia (who's REALLY more omnipresent, God or the NSA)?
Shared paranoia becomes a community. Problems arise when we believe having sex and causing death in the OTHER communities (which, ironically, has served population growth quite well) can continue forever (perpetual economic growth).
Modern economics is simply rape and pillage via the proxy of cash.
All things in moderation is why we invented popular government to replace monarchies: to counter the all-too-human ability to solve problems (weapons are solutions to problems) faster than we build common unity (communities are moderators).
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Auntiegrav says
Of course, and that reason in the case of evolution deniers is that science threatens the power base of their religion by introducing truth, and truth undermines any system based on lies. That is why science and religion are inherently incompatible. All religions are based on lies and perpetuating falsehoods. Without those lies, those in power could not maintain power.
Science, in contrast, liberates man and makes us all equal. That's the last thing any hierarchy, including ones based on superstitions, would want.
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Auntiegrav says
Let's see. The NSA exists, god doesn't. Let me do the math... Yep, it's the NSA.
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Auntiegrav says
I love the observation :)
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clearly evolution is real with the single exception of the puffer fish - which god made. hahahaha
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Auntiegrav says
Yes, it has to get it right the first time, else its defenses would have failed and it would have gone extinct ages ago. As such do you find fossils of pufferfish with non spike defenses ? No, you dont have any fossil evidence of other mutations which failed. This is where evolution fails.
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rewrew7 says
So if your not eaten, no need to evolve, if you are eaten, then need to evolve and grow spikes.. but wait .. your dead and you certainly cannot multiple nor evolve... Dead fish tell no tales.
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Dan8267 says
Yes, but let's go back to "People do stuff, they have reasons for doing stuff: in that order."
The mind is a terrible thing. It thrives on its ability to build a model of the universe that is NOT the real universe (Inventors would not invent if they couldn't imagine a world with something that doesn't exist yet). Until we teach ourselves collectively to build a model that is more like the real universe (i.e. Sweden works for Swedes only), human communities need the 'lies' in order to build common ground. As the saying goes, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Trying to use scientifically researched facts and data to make arguments with most people is actually futile. First (as salesmen know all too well) establish some common emotional bonding system for other people to feel included. THEN you may be able to guide them toward real facts or toward your particular twist on the universe. We are first and foremost instinctive, emotional, and random (required by evolution to create a 'fringe' that is adapted to new environments BEFORE the environment changes..the puffer fish with spikes existed as a freak before it was needed). Logic and reason come second in the human mind. As Robin Williams' character in "Dead Poets Society" espouses: we learn poetry to get laid. We build bridges and skyscrapers and iPads and moon rockets in order to prove our worthiness to getting laid. Sometimes, it works. Unfortunately, too many are allowed to skip the worthiness part (there is no license for being a parent) now that cultural norms have been taken over by consumerism. The "worthiness test" used to be a function of both culture and religion (parents and neighbors monitored courtships or arranged for marriages). Religion lost its attachment to culture with all of the new politically correct sub-churches, and culture lost its useful religious mores and replaced them with spreadsheets.
The result is that human beings are more fragmented than ever in their beliefs and ability to recognize facts and useful lies.
Much of science was developed to serve what was thought to be God's purpose for man (to think and husband the world: the responsibilities of "dominion") and for a time, the pursuit of science by devotees was useful to finding more beauty in 'Creation' to worship.
Unfortunately when conflicts arose between dogma and facts, the pursuit was stopped to prevent those in positions of favor from having to admit fallibility or to do the necessary work to incorporate changes to their sales pitch.
Thus we now see the two dominant religions fighting for followers in the U.S.: Republicans and Democrats. Both deny the facts and refuse to re-evaluate their dogmatic pursuit of obsolete policies and systems. Their lack of common decency prevents them from acknowledging each other's needs and contributions to their well being. This is similar to the conditions prior to the Civil War, when the strengths of two 'sides' were turned into Evil acts instead of redirected or modified to fit new needs. (Slavery could have been abolished and no production lost through conversion to wages and the North could have phased in incentives to pay for the transition..but instead, they both went looking for a fight thanks to the hype of newspapers and power mongers).
Most logical arguments for how things "should" be or "could" be are based on an imagined example of what a human being actually does (use logic to change instead of emotion). Logic is used to solve immediate problems, but emotions are used to set policies and establish community. The failure of the 'other' side to listen to your logic results in fear and loathing of the 'other' and establishment of escalating exaggerations of differences between the sides until war breaks out and everyone fights until they are tired of fighting. Humans are not logical, and logical political arguments are based on proposed behaviors of a species that doesn't really exist (homo logicus). Hence, the 200 proof liquor of science must be aged and blended with the herbs and charcoal remains of culture and religion in order to maintain robust living human beings that are diverse enough to be sustainable (Pure White Lightning Logic was what Soviet Russia was trying to use, and they got blind drunk on the power of it).
"Reason's got nuthin' to do with it." - Mr. Gibbs, "Pirates of the Caribbean"
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Auntiegrav says
And the fossil record should have evidence of that, but not even anthropologist can show any evidence from fossils.
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thomas.wong1986 says
You missed the part about that. The failed iterations were DIGESTED by the fish. There is no evidence left. We don't see fossil records of most of the individual variations that lived because they got eaten by the other things that were more successful, or they died or never developed into an animal. Mutations happen continuously, and any species is a spectrum of mutations, with the mode (most frequent) becoming what we call "normal" for that species. The fossil record, for the most part is within 3 sigma of that particular combination of mutations. Changes occur when the environment changes (the predator adapts to eat the mean, or the climate changes too much for the normal ones to survive. Those that survive are the ones that would be considered 'fringe' because they are already living (sparsely) in the type of conditions that killed the 'norms'. Hence, we see a 'jump' in the fossil record from one type to the next type (one set of mutations to the better adapted set of mutations) that shows up as a new species growing in numbers under the new conditions, but a fat chance of seeing the actual change which may not be gradual.
Please be sure you understand all of the ramifications of it before answering, but don't be afraid to address more points. I like refining the argument. It takes time and a willingness to see new perspectives.
Most arguments are not about whether the facts are true or not true: they are about whether or not one chooses to believe them or not. Both choices might be advantageous to evolution. Only the second is advantageous to stasis, which usually means extinction in evolutionary terms.
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"Life: is it inevitable or just a fluke?"
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21428700.100
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Auntiegrav says
If you're goal is to persuade the willfully ignorant to start thinking and accepting the truth whatever it happens to be, then yes. However, that is not my goal.
You don't stop the racist from being a racist. You don't stop the homophobe from being a homophobe. You don't stop the brainwashed cultist from being a brainwashed cultist.
You stop the virus of irrationality, in all its forms (racism, homophobia, religion, etc.), from infecting the next generation. You do this by discrediting the irrational publicly and undeniably.
For example, to discredit thomas's juvenile attempt at logic regarding the evolution of the puffer fish, we can simply refer to a wonderful explanation of a similar evolutionary development as explained by the great Carl Sagan.
And, of course, not all the fishermen had to throw back crabs with human facial features on their carapaces. If only a few fishermen were superstitious and thought it was bad luck to kill those crabs, then the genes of those crabs would have an advantage and would come to dominate the population. As the crabs carapaces became more overtly human-like, more fisherman would start throwing those back increasing the selective pressure on the crabs to produce features that would be most likely to keep the humans from eating them.
Now even a child could take this story and see how it applies to the puffer fish. Anyone who denies this obvious truth is less intelligent than a child and should be respected no more than one.
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thomas.wong1986 says
It's not a need, it's a force of nature/god.
The point is some things make you less likely to be eaten. Animals with higher survivability manage to live long enough to reproduce. The characteristics which made them able to survive are passed on to their offspring. Over time the characteristics which are most advantageous continue to get selected and amplified. This is called : natural selection.
Check out some food science, or your local dog show, for examples of how we humans have bred in traits we like by agriculture and animal husbandry. Humans just playing the role of mother nature/god in these cases. I think God would be insulted that people don't believe in evolution. It's one of his/hers finest rules of life. ;)
Edit: read Dan's post above for a case study in humans influencing genetic traits. To think Earth doesn't do this naturally would be ludicrous.
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rewrew7 says
Intelligent Design is what your talking about donkey, crops and pets.... there is no natural selection here. The final end result is predefined without hit and misses, as we are doing with genetics. Yes i am aware of Biology, Chemistry and the theory of Evolution, we all had the same classes.
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rewrew7 says
As i point out, if the pufferfish (a simple fish) used natural selection, it would have been extinct from all the non-working toxins or body modifications produced during the ages.
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thomas.wong1986 says
thomas.wong1986 says
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil
There are actually plenty of fossil records of now extinct animals. There are also plenty of fossil records showing animal lineage and ancestors of their pasts.
Here is the puffing behavior described in relation to its ancestors (ie where it got it from):
http://discovermagazine.com/1997/sep/howthepufferfish1226/
Here is how the pufferfish got its beak:
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/about-us/news/2012/may/how-the-pufferfish-got-its-beak109745.html
Toxins and Venoms explained:
http://weirdanimalreport.com/news/strange-evolution-poison-and-venom
Just use google and read around. There are full blown scientific journals (hard core science) down to articles aimed at kids.
Intelligent Design is simply a reformation on Darwinian Evolution, saying "Yeah, ok, we believe in evolution, but you haven't explained everything yet, so that unexplained portion: that leaves room for an intelligent force that set this all in motion. It's not natural. It was created someplace else." All ID believers believe in evolution, and some believe in creationism, but not all. (see, even religions evolve ... you know about Zoroaster, and the relationship between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam right? You know Zeus was flying down and impregnating virgins long before Jesus's dad, right?)
God and science can coexist. ID believes in natural selection, very much so. It just asks a big question. Science, and particularly cell biologist, are grappling with the following : the most primitive cell we can find is so many orders of magnitude more complex than simple amino acids we can create through what we believe would be natural forces on Earth at the time we believe life arrived. So, it's likely, earth was seeded with life from collisions with large bodies from space. Life is alien to Earth.
Well, where did those cells come from and how were they formed if they are so complex?
Great question. Since we believe Earth couldn't naturally generate a cell, or at-least the odds are so small as to be almost nothing, could different planetary conditions elsewhere have done it?
Go one further. Ok, so some planet, or large space body managed to form a cell. How are the laws of physics and chemistry "just so" to allow it. There is plenty of room for religion to explain the bigger and unknowable for us. When religion clings to old ideas that are refuted by good scientific evidence, I think this is where a lot of people will choose to go their own way. Also, religion cannot say, "See science you cannot explain everything so therefor God must exist. Worship here." Science simply says back, "Give me some more time. I'll explain things. Also, I may find God before you do."
One of my most favorite teachers from college was my world religions teacher. She was a squid biologist before she become a minister. Science doesn't hate religion. It just hates it when it preaches falsehoods and makes people cling to "faith".
You ever read Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy? The concept of Earth in that book is pretty smart and funny. You'd like it.
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thomas.wong1986 says
Your analysis is deeply flawed. Just watch the Heikegani crab video to see why.
There comes a time when you have to put away childish things like imaginary friends and accept the universe for what it is rather than what your limited imagination requires it to be.
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Chimpanzees cannot be trained to learn "cooperation".