WatchNo, "intelligent republicans" is not an oxymoron. THere are intelligent republicans. Or at least there used to be.
Here's the question.
Republicans are promising to repeal and redo "ObamaCare," while preserving pre-exisitng conditions coverage, and all of the other favored aspects of ObamaCare, but killing the mandated coverage of everyone (or penalty (tax if you prefer)for not being covered).
Can you explain how this will be paid for or how it even makes sense ?
If there's no mandate but there is preexisting condition coverage, what's to prevent me from waiting until I'm sick to get insurance ? In other words being covered by a subsidy from your insurance.
I don't think being able to buy insurance accross state lines is any great shakes. I'm sure that could somehow be done on top of ObamaCare as easily as it could as part of a redo.
This is a topsy turvy world when republicans are upset by a good, business friendly, conservative policy, just because it was championed by a democrat.
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there are no talking animals ? man is an animal, and talks. Whales communicate with sound. Heck, squirrels sound the alarm when the cat walks by. But I kid,,,,, I guess you are speaking about the snake talking to Eve? That was before the flood. Maybe all the talking snakes, or the people that spoke snake, were allowed to die off in the flood? Next.
By the way, I did not say one must believe the Bible to be a Holy book, or even to be true in any way, to see my point about Joe Smith's fairy tale. I said what I meant to say. Anyone with a clear head that read the Bible would see the the plagerism of Smith's tale.
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Bap33 says
Your hypothesis that man is non-altruistic unless taught (acted on by outside social, political, or religious forces) is easily disproved and has been many times. Altruism, the act of an individual performing an action that costs the individual while benefiting only others, is widespread throughout nature. Altruism is clearly shown in all apes, meerkats, vampire bats, dolphins, and many other species. In fact, just about all mammalian species and many intelligent, social non-mammals behave altruistically.
Altruism is an invention of evolution that helps species that live in social groups maximize their chances of survival. There are great practical benefits to altruism. Hence, altruism, like selfishness, is instinctive. Culture may enhance or diminish these tendencies, but those tendencies are the result of nature.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Selfish-Gene-Edition---Introduction/dp/0199291152
http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Animal-Evolutionary-Psychology/dp/0679763996/
Bap33 says
Nope. Personal responsibility and accountability are important traits in the modern world. However, they are independent of morality. Consider this thought experiment. Image you are on a deserted island. You could be responsible or not. You could take care of your survival and be pro-active, or you could starve to death. However, there is nothing moral or immoral that you could do because there are no other people or intelligent animals around.
Morality is all about interactions with other sentient and quasi-sentient beings. Personal responsibility is not.
Bap33 says
If a man does the right thing because he thinks an all-power entity is watching and keeping a checklist, then he isn't being moral. He is simply looking out for his own best interest. The existence of the belief in god undermines morality. The thief that refrains from mugging a person on the street because a cop is watching isn't being moral.
Carl Pham says
Obamacare should be repeals and restarted from scratch, but not by the Republicans. They are the reason Obamacare sucks. The Republican plan is to make health care a privilege for the ruling class alone. The middle class ceases to exist as it moves into the ranks of the poor who get no health care. Life becomes cheap, and as a result, labor becomes cheap.
zzyzzx says
Insurance, by definition, is the socialization of the costs of what is being insured. Socialized medicine is what we have in the status quo and what all alternatives are. That's not the issue. The issue is how things are socialized.
Real health care reform requires several things.
1. Transparent honest pricing that does not vary from individual to individual. This means we need a single-payer system, a centralized national clearinghouse.
2. Near zero economic profit for all forms of insurance. This means near 100% efficiency in the insurance market, whether it is done by private business, government agencies, or non-profit institutions. This is almost impossible to get without a public option.
3. A complete divorce of health care and insurance from employment.
4. Medical tort reform that reduces frivolous lawsuits while compensating true medical malpractice victims. This greatly affects the malpractice insurance that all doctors, including good and compassionate ones must carry and charge their customers for.
5. A comprehensive, national software system for all hospitals and private practice that reduces administrative costs to near zero. It can be tied into the clearinghouse, but it is an independent system. I could build such a system for a mere 100 million dollars and five years. It would save our nation about $182 billion a year. That's a 182,000% return every year for all eternity. Why the fuck is no one paying me to do this?
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rootvg says
Pretty much, yes. The Democrats represent rich childless folks that go to Whole Foods and live on the West Coast and in Boswash. The Republicans represent Corporate America and Big Finance.
Everyone else is skrewed.
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iwog says
Anyone remember RomneyCare in Massachusetts? Do conservatives really think Romney will repeal ObamaCare? Get real.
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wthrfrk80 says
He can't, and that's what I told my wife yesterday.
The whole thing is a gigantic mindfuck.
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wthrfrk80 says
I go to Whole Foods all the time. No, we don't have kids.
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evilmonkeyboy says
You're kidding right? When was the USA ever becoming the "greatest country in the world?" That's utopian BS.
Get real. It's all about the money.
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America is an oppressive police state with prison populations far in excess of despotic dictatorships, the lowest 1st world life expectancy, the highest 1st world violent crime rate, the most expensive and ineffective health care system, and a right wing party that is something out of the Dark Ages.
United States citizens have to ask themselves why their country has slaughtered an order of magnitude more innocent people (mostly in Iraq and Afghanistan) than the terrorists killed on 9/11. United States citizens have to wonder why we're now exporting oil when we were promised that "drill baby drill" was the answer to our energy problems. United States citizens are slaves to the corporatocracy and millions work for minimum wage without benefits, vacation time, or retirement.
The United States has the worst standard of living in the 1st world for the majority of people. If you're rich in this country, it's a pretty good place to live. If you're young and poor, you're fucked and you have nothing to look forward to. Greatest country in the world my ass.
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iwog, that's about what I would expect to hear from someone who lives in Lafayette.
Fine, that's your opinion...but there are far more of us (especially outside California) than there are of you.
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iwog says
Can you please stop providing facts? We were having a perfectly fine discussion until someone started providing information that disproves what we want to believe. :)
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Dan8267 says
Yes, so true it is too bad many don't remember that fact.
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Bap33 says
You don't even need much of a clear head to see the plagerism. Many passages of the BoM are an almost word-for-word copy of the OT.
Bap33 says
Yes, our system always seems to be a choice of the lesser of two evils rather than the better of two good candidates.
That said there are always two choices who have a legitimate chance of winning.
I find it interesting that you are choosing to put your trust and faith in a candidate who...
1. Is lacking the "clear head" (as you put it) to see that Joesph Smith's story is a clear fraud.
2. Believes scripture that calls your religious beliefs an abomination (yes, the same word used in the bible to refer to homosexual behavior) and corrupt.
3. In addition mormons believe that someone, like you, who would write such anti-mormon statements is inspired by the devil to do so.
In short you are supporting a candidate, who will lead the entire country, who thinks you are a Satan inspired corrupt abomination. Ummm... yeah... you must really hate Obama for some reason.
It is also interesting that you pay Glen Beck, another mormon who feels the same way about you, fill your head with any idea that Mr. Beck seems fit.
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Dan8267 says
You cannot be serious? Transparency tells me otherwise.
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wthrfrk80 says
That is my point exactly, Americans are fat and lazy. We can't do math and science because it's hard. We don't even remotely compete with the rest of the world in education anymore. Yet, we can't grasp why health care cost are going up when eating a piece of broccoli is unAmerican.
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good thing he is running for POTUS and not Pope/King/Rabbi/Pastor. Right?
Lord Barry got a shot at the job based on zero life/work history. Romney will get his shot with loads of life/work history. I don't expect much to change. As soon as an R gets in, Code Pink, body counts, and the Militant Sexual Deviant Nation demanding school kids be taught how Steve bangs Larry, will be on every media outlet 24/7. Then AIDS and StemCell research will be front page ... then Global Warming ... then energy ... the same crap the libs use each time to control the conversation (and oddly, these issues have been awefully quiet for Lord Barry). I doubt we will see Romney tell the media, "The Constitution and the Congress are not doing what I want them to do so I am doing it myself". I doubt Romney voted "present" 80% of the time he was on the job. I doubt Romney will be golfing as much (not even half as much, bet). I doubt Mrs. Romney will have long lavish vacations on the public dime (and every dime she does spend will be disected on NBC Nightly). I just think the double standard in place in the American mass media, as well as the public education system and legal system, will continue. And I think the R-side is just as much a part of the cancer killing America as the D-side is. Read that last line again before you rip my eyeballs out - again.
We should annex Mexico soon.
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Reader says
Transparency tells you what? That the GOP doesn't spend more than the Democrats?
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/obama-most-fiscally-conservative-president-in-modern-history/254658/
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Bap33 says
LOL... you crack me up. For some reason in your head it is completely okay for a snake to talk to a person if it happened before the "flood". I can't wait to here why it's okay to believe that a donkey talked to Saul/Paul after the "flood" in the NT.
So my statement stands as well:
Anyone with a clear mind would not believe a book with talking animals to be true.
Thus, people with a clear mind don't waste their days reading the bible.
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My apologies, I thought you were serious.
I also thought you lived in a kid's closet in Quahog, RI. When did you move to San Jose?
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wthrfrk80 says
Yeah, there was just no money in that. Moved out to SJ about two years ago.
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iwog says
this is becoming a very trendy way of saying 'a fucking shitload more.'
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Reader says
Transparency is exactly how we know that republicans spend way more than democrats, contrary to what Fox News says.
If you wish to refute this issue, please revisit the following thread, an in particular, the following comments.
http://patrick.net/forum/?p=1213133
http://patrick.net//forum/?p=1213133#comment-833257
http://patrick.net/forum/?p=1213133#comment-834153
If we need to resurrect that thread to further squash the false myth that republicans are fiscally responsible or spendthrifts, so be it.
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JodyChunder says
We'll see that term being used more in scientific journals:
"The Higgs-Boson particle is a fucking shitload larger than we anticipated..."
It might be like in the movie Idiocracy.
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CL says
no, Obama isnt spending because of gridlock from GOP, which is a good thing!
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thomas.wong1986 says
Why didn't the GOP keep spending down when they ran all branches of Government, but had no fiscal crisis to thwart?
Their reputation as fiscal conservatives is imaginary, unless it benefits them politically.
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agreed 100%. GOP does not equal conservative.
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evilmonkeyboy says
never seen Shriek? lol
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wthrfrk80 says
I see football field used as a metric in scientific periodicals and journals often enough (and yes, JC reads science ..the high desert ain't all fun n games all the time)
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Bap33 says
That sentence doesn't make sense on any planet in our solar system, Sorry, but you live in America! Learn the language!!
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Bap33 says
Comment deleted for directly insulting another user.
Repeated offenses will get your whole account deleted.
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dang ... you know what, my mistake. I was lost in the moment. Wont happen again.
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Bap33 says
I am working on my first million little man. What kinda big deals you got lined up?
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just your sister
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Bap33 says
My sister is a 200 pound diabetic whore. You can have her bub.
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Hi Marcus,
I'm a lifelong Republican. You make a good point. It is not possible to just repeal the mandate and have a financially sound system. However, I don't think the system is financially sound as passed either.
Pre-existing condition coverage is fine for those with diseases that cannot be avoided. However, the overwhelming amount of cost for "pre-existing" condition coverage is going to go to those who are obese, abuse drugs or alcohol, or make risky life choices. Obamacare is ultimately a big tax on those that have discipline in their food and lifestyle choices. Thus I think it is unfair and taxing people even more who make good choices is not good for the economy.
Republicans rarely talk about the 2nd major problem with Obamacare and that is the new insurance company 15% limit on profit minus non-medical expenses. The net effect of this part of the law will cause insurance companies to merge, effectively eliminates any new competition in the medical insurance business, and then turns the remaining insurance companies into pseudo-government controlled entities. This is why the medical insurance company stocks have soared since the passage of Obamacare. The wealthy investors really like the idea of companies with guaranteed customers by the government, 15% profit limit, and no new future competition, and big mergers upcoming with very low cost debt to finance the mergers -- a much better deal than T-bills or muni bonds.
On the mandate - I suspect that Democrats will offer cash payments to folks so they opt in. If they don't the youth are going to find themselves that much further behind financially. It is quite ridiculous that the youth who already get screwed with the massive wealth transfer to the elderly and federal employees are going to get screwed again.
Cheers
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"Obamacare is ultimately a big tax on those that have discipline in their food and lifestyle choices. Thus I think it is unfair and taxing people even more who make good choices is not good for the economy."
Who paid for those people BEFORE Obamacare? Who's paying for them today?
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Hi Marcus,
I'm a lifelong Republican. You make a good point. It is not possible to just repeal the mandate and have a financially sound system. However, I don't think the system is financially sound as passed either.
Pre-existing condition coverage is fine for those with diseases that cannot be avoided. However, the overwhelming amount of cost for "pre-existing" condition coverage is going to go to those who are obese, abuse drugs or alcohol, or make risky life choices. Obamacare is ultimately a big tax on those that have discipline in their food and lifestyle choices. Thus I think it is unfair and taxing people even more who make good choices is not good for the economy.
Republicans rarely talk about the 2nd major problem with Obamacare and that is the new insurance company 15% limit on profit minus non-medical expenses. The net effect of this part of the law will cause insurance companies to merge, effectively eliminates any new competition in the medical insurance business, and then turns the remaining insurance companies into pseudo-government controlled entities. This is why the medical insurance company stocks have soared since the passage of Obamacare. The wealthy investors really like the idea of companies with guaranteed customers by the government, 15% profit limit, and no new future competition, and big mergers upcoming with very low cost debt to finance the mergers -- a much better deal than T-bills or muni bonds.
On the mandate - I suspect that Democrats will offer cash payments to folks so they opt in. If they don't the youth are going to find themselves that much further behind financially. It is quite ridiculous that the youth who already get screwed with the massive wealth transfer to the elderly and federal employees are going to get screwed again.
Cheers
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Thanks for the thoughtful reply Jim.
JMcDonald says
I don't see this. First off I don't see this as the most expensive part of preexisting conditions coverage. If someone is obese or an addict without coverage now, they end up getting expensive care anyway, usually too late (maybe more expensive), often starting in the emergency room, and paid for by the rest of us anyway. It needs to be paid for in the same way all health care is paid for, which is more transparent and will lead to hospitals being more accountable for what they charge.
Meanwhile the diseases of children or adults that end up being covered because of pre-existing conditions coverage are hugely important, and I believe they should be covered as do a majority of people. The same is true for ending lifetime caps.
There isn't enough talk about the fact that without everyone insured, pre-existing condition coverage makes no sense. Otherwise everyone would wait to be sick to buy insurance. Romney understood this in Massachusetts. This is not even to mention paying for it, which the mandate helps with.
As for consolidation of ins companies, I don't know about that. I was for single payer and still am. Medicare for all with optional supplemental policies seems to me to be a no brainer. Medicare is already set up to pay for the most difficult and costly end of life care for everyone (with supplemental ins ).
It's an indictment of our political system and the degree to which it's owned by corporations that this solution couldn't even get serious consideration.
As for the youth question. It does seem a little unfair, that this generation of say 28 year olds are forced to buy something that previous generations did not. I don't like that but it's part of the problem's solution. This type of thing often happens when a new system starts.
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evilmonkeyboy says
Just out of curiosity, where does Paul's donkey talk to him?
There is a talking donkey in Numbers somewhere, some prophet off to curse Israel, donkey gifted w/speech by an angel equipped, IIRC, with a flaming sword. (Never understood that whole flaming sword business. I mean if you're an angel, shouldn't a plain old ordinary sword be enough for you to do what needs doing?) After the flood, but still in the OT, not NT.
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marcus says
not being a nitpick marcus, but this sentence really caught my eye. All health care is paid for by people that pay in more tax than they take out. About 5% of the tax base. I would rather see the medical complex have to charge prices that can be paid - a market price, for lack of better terms. It seems that most medical fees and wages are just made up from whatever number those who choose them feel they can get (a little bit like teacher wages .. normally 200% of the average wage in their area). There is no market at work, is there? Anyways, I am all for making the medical complex explain their fees if I have to pay for everyone's care.
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Elwood P Dowd says
Yeah I was wondering about that too. I never remember anything about St. Paul talking to a donkey from my days in Sunday school.
But it seems we have two different conversations going on in this thread.