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How the Elites Built America's Economic Wall

By freak80   Follow   Fri, 20 Jul 2012, 8:06am   3,981 views   63 comments
In Corning NY 14830   Watch (0)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (5)   Dislike  

"Over the past 30 years, the convergence [of incomes] has largely stopped. Incomes in the poorer states are no longer catching up to incomes in rich states...In a new working paper, Shoag and Peter Ganong, a doctoral student in economics at Harvard, offer an explanation: The key to convergence was never just mobile capital. It was also mobile labor. But the promise of a better life that once drew people of all backgrounds to rich places such as New York and California now applies only to an educated elite -- because rich places have made housing prohibitively expensive."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-19/how-the-elites-built-america-s-economic-wall.html

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1. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

   1   8:26am Fri 20 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   The kicker: "Finally, there’s the never-mentioned possibility: that the best-educated, most-affluent, most politically influential Americans like this result. They may wring their hands over inequality, but in everyday life they see segregation as a feature, not a bug. It keeps out fat people with bad taste. Paul Krugman may wax nostalgic about a childhood spent in the suburbs where plumbers and middle managers lived side by side. But I doubt that many of his fervent fans would really want to live there. If so, they might try Texas." Bingo. I've always suspected that wealthy liberals had contempt for average Americans. And we wonder why the New Deal Coalition is dead. And the top 0.1% is laughing all the way to the (bailed out) bank. "What's the matter with Kansas?" Indeed!

2. tts Follow Befriend 2 threads 470 comments

   2   7:03am Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   wthrfrk80 says the wealthy had contempt for average Americans fixed this for you, agree with the rest though

3. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

   3   8:25am Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   tts, I called out rich "liberals" specifically since they are the most hypocritical, at least in my mind. That was the whole point of that article: well educated folks with "liberal" political views screwing-over their less well-to-do brethren. Specifically with environmental policies that hurt low-income people the most. Many want the credit for "caring about the poor" but then do everything in their power to make them even poorer. And god forbid they actually live near the poor.

4. Dan8267 Follow Befriend (16) 761 threads 7,688 comments Boca Raton, FL Premium

   4   11:39am Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Poor places are short on the capital that would make local labor more productive. This particular statement is wrong. Just think about this specific statement and how wrong it is regardless of whether or not the rest of the article is correct. Let's say in Massachusetts a steel worker produces $100 of wealth each day and takes home $80/day in compensation (wages and benefits). Let's say in Alabama a steel worker produces $100 of wealth each day and takes home $20/day in compensation. Is the steel worker in Alabama more productive than the one in Massachusetts? No. They both produce exactly $100 a wealth every day. The Alabama worker is not more productive, but rather more exploitable. The providers of capital can "fuck over" the Alabama worker more than the Massachusetts worker. This does not mean that one is more productive than the other even though the capital provider makes more money off of the slave laborer. The individual capital provider is better off exploiting the worker with less bargaining power, but society as a whole and even capital providers as a group are better off if such exploitations do not occur. It is simply the tragedy of the commons. And when that tragedy is avoided, the economy is far more productive and everybody, even the parasites, are better off.

5. bob2356 Follow Befriend 2 threads 2,497 comments

   5   11:55am Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   wthrfrk80 says I called out rich "liberals" specifically since they are the most hypocritical, at least in my mind. That was the whole point of that article: well educated folks with "liberal" political views screwing-over their less well-to-do brethren. Specifically with environmental policies that hurt low-income people the most. Rich "liberals'? Something like 75% of people making over 250k are registered republicans I read. Well educated and rich are not the same thing.

6. tts Follow Befriend 2 threads 470 comments

   6   4:43pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   wthrfrk80 says I called out rich "liberals" specifically since they are the most hypocritical, at least in my mind. Sure but how many rich liberals are there out there? It seems to me to be a distinction without much real world use. If you really want to hate a particular group the ones who constantly go around saying, "I'm socially liberal but a fiscal conservative" and then go and vote Republican or Libertarian would perhaps be worthy of some hate. Most of them I've seen were intelligent and had some college but still effectively voted against their interests every time.

7. Dan8267 Follow Befriend (16) 761 threads 7,688 comments Boca Raton, FL Premium

   7   4:59pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Ruki says So, using your example with HOW the author meant he said, it would go along with like this. Yet the solution I proposed in many threads still applies. Have the execs receive the same compensation as the median producer. Execs still need to maximize productivity to maximize their own wealth, but they cannot increase their wealth through parasitic behavior or zero-sum games with the producers. Such a system would fulfill all the stated goals of both red states and blue states.

8. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

   8   5:01pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike   bob2356 says Something like 75% of people making over 250k are registered republicans I read. Well educated and rich are not the same thing. Well if that's true, I'm relieved. The rich "conservatives" are far less hypocritical at least.

9. Dan8267 Follow Befriend (16) 761 threads 7,688 comments Boca Raton, FL Premium

   9   5:07pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   bob2356 says Something like 75% of people making over 250k are registered republicans I read. I find it hard to believe that 75% of the people in any income bracket are even registered to vote.

10. Peter P Follow Befriend (4) 117 threads 17,655 comments Premium

    10   5:26pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   If I get paid the same regardless of what I do I will sit on my ass and do nothing. If you try to evaluate my contribution I will game your system. Let the market decide who should get paid what.

11. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    11   5:53pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   wthrfrk80 says tts, I called out rich "liberals" specifically since they are the most hypocritical, at least in my mind. That was the whole point of that article: well educated folks with "liberal" political views screwing-over their less well-to-do brethren. Specifically with environmental policies that hurt low-income people the most. Many want the credit for "caring about the poor" but then do everything in their power to make them even poorer. And god forbid they actually live near the poor. that's what the notion of race is all about. they can discriminate against the poor freely by creating separate classes of race (who have no chance of marrying their daughter), and then declaring everyone 'equal'. Then they claim that the inequality is due to RACISM, and then bill the low class americans for their welfare. The Spanish Empire championed this model. They have a distinct caste system employed in the new world. In red states the Ghetto areas barely exist. Phoenix used to not have them until the liberals arrived with their racial equality.

12. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    12   5:54pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   wthrfrk80 says bob2356 says Something like 75% of people making over 250k are registered republicans I read. Well educated and rich are not the same thing. Well if that's true, I'm relieved. The rich "conservatives" are far less hypocritical at least. If the Southerners are so bad to blacks, why on earth do they all live down there? the fact is there are more REAL opportunities for blacks in the south than the liberal areas.

13. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    13   5:58pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   if you want to see some serious racism against Mesoamericans go to Mexico or just about any country south of there. The Spanish are incredible racists whose culture invariably locks out anyone who is not of European descent. The Catholic Church maintains the social order through tried and true religious administration, etc.

14. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    14   6:05pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   another key point: when you really talk to minority groups, there are a lot of differences of opinion between them. some of the blacks or latinos favor the middle class model. THE CAPABLE ONES. The losers, the criminals, all favor the welfare model. When you really talk to a minority person, you learn that their aspirations amount to one thing: GETTING OUT OF THE GHETTO. In other words: getting away from other black/latino people and joining mainstream American society. It's because the culture of RACE and EQUALITY/WELFARE promote the worst elements of society and make life impossible for anyone who lives amongst it... except of course for the elite cronies running the show in the nice part of town.

15. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    15   6:15pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (2)   tts says wthrfrk80 says I called out rich "liberals" specifically since they are the most hypocritical, at least in my mind. Sure but how many rich liberals are there out there? It seems to me to be a distinction without much real world use. If you really want to hate a particular group the ones who constantly go around saying, "I'm socially liberal but a fiscal conservative" and then go and vote Republican or Libertarian would perhaps be worthy of some hate. Most of them I've seen were intelligent and had some college but still effectively voted against their interests every time. the Liberals themselves aren't typically rich, but the politics are for rich people. it works like this: when the politics is about their yard, theyre conservative. When it's about other people's yard, they're liberal. They would never subject themselves or their family to this cultural garbage. The promote liberal values in minority schools, but teach their children conservative values in private schools. this is why when you go to a liberal city, there are ghettos, because liberals have a completely different set of standards depending on what race/class you are. Conservatives believe in universal values. As the article says, it leads to wealth convergence. this is also why inter-racial breeding is considered so offensive to liberals. People who don't fit squarely into race categories can be incredibly socially disruptive. Typically, the people who posed the greatest challenge to Spanish authority during colonial times were Mestizos.

16. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    16   6:51pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   this is also why Liberalism is so complex. It amounts to a huge byzantine complex of excuses for double standards. most things like economics etc. are not very complex, but when you add in double standards that need to be explained in an acceptable way, then it becomes difficult to learn.

17. Patrick Follow Befriend (54) 5,185 threads 6,156 comments 46 male Menlo Park, CA Premium

    17   7:11pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Some examples of double standards please.

18. Peter P Follow Befriend (4) 117 threads 17,655 comments Premium

    18   7:14pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   "Liberals" and "Conservatives" are overused labels that mean very little. Another reason why humanity is hilarious.

19. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    19   7:18pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   Patrick, I've been following this site for a years. I can't help but notice how much you've gone in the liberal direction these days. Liberalism is what is bringing down california and will probably destroy much of our economy. Californians are like Catholics, the system is so extensive they cannot even criticize a system that kills them. Pretty soon you're going to witness all out riots in your cities. You'll wish you lived in a conservative, rule-of-law city. You will probably move to one if you're wealthy enough to afford it. Patrick says Some examples of double standards please. this is also why Liberalism is so complex. It amounts to a huge byzantine complex of excuses for double standards. most things like economics etc. are not very complex, but when you add in double standards that need to be explained in an acceptable way, then it becomes difficult to learn.

20. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    20   7:25pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   Patrick says Some examples of double standards please. Peter P says "Liberals" and "Conservatives" are overused labels that mean very little. By "liberal" I simply mean those who are part of the "progressive" movement. They see humans as basically good, with history moving inevitably toward a better and better future (if they could only get those knuckle-dragging conservatives and religious people out of the way). The original article I referenced spelled out a double standard inherent in "liberal" cities like NYC, Boston, DC, Portland OR, and SF. "Liberals" claim to stand for equality, opportunity, and "helping the poor", and yet low income folks are totally screwed by the lack of affordable housing in those cities. Environmentalism is used as a cover to prevent new housing from being built, protecting the property values of the "landed elite."

21. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    21   7:26pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   Californians have, as group, chose to ignore all the problems around them- many of which they were causing while they basked in their own sense of self-superiority. There's a sublime justice in this world, and California will get a big helping of it. All the signs were there for you and you did not heed them. Hang on tight this ride is going to be a wild one.

22. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    22   7:28pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   wthrfrk80 says "Liberals" claim to stand for equality, opportunity, and "helping the poor", and yet low income folks are totally screwed by the lack of affordable housing in those cities. Environmentalism is used as a cover to prevent new housing from being built, protecting the property values of the "landed elite." that's only the beginning. Look at how they view foreign policy. Look at their sheer hypocrisy regarding Israel. Liberalism is simply the tool of what is left of imperialism. It's the 'babylon system' we've been warned about.

23. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    23   7:37pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   illegal aliens? unsustainable debt? exploitation of all kinds? no problemo... lets just keep making money, making startups, making movies, more bullshit, more lies, more more more CALIFORNIA!!!!!! ITS AWESOME!!!! ITS THE GREATEST FUCKING PLACE ON EARTH!!!!! WE ARE CALIFORNIA, OUR SOCIETY IS BROKE, ON DRUGS, AND OUR FAMILIES ARE COMPLETELY DYSFUNCTIONAL... BUT YOU MUST ACCEPT OUR VALUES AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

24. Dan8267 Follow Befriend (16) 761 threads 7,688 comments Boca Raton, FL Premium

    24   8:15pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Ruki says Should doctors be paid as the median nurse makes in the same hospital? Hell no. Once again, you miss the point. Capital is not talent. Nor is management production. I did not say that any producer should take home more than what he or she produced. I'm saying that the wealth non-producers, who are at best overhead, should take home is limited to what the mean producer takes home. Try thinking about what this means, then reply.

25. Peter P Follow Befriend (4) 117 threads 17,655 comments Premium

    25   8:38pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   wthrfrk80 says By "liberal" I simply mean those who are part of the "progressive" movement. They see humans as basically good, with history moving inevitably toward a better and better future (if they could only get those knuckle-dragging conservatives and religious people out of the way). That is a fair description. I am definitely not a liberal because I think humanity will inevitably drive itself to destruction.

26. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    26   9:05pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   Peter P says I think humanity will inevitably drive itself to destruction. So do I.

27. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    27   9:11pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   The Original Bankster says Liberalism is simply the tool of what is left of imperialism. It's the 'babylon system' we've been warned about. What? That's a little extreme don't you think?

28. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 273 threads 12,494 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    28   9:18pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   wthrfrk80 says The original article I referenced spelled out a double standard inherent in "liberal" cities like NYC, Boston, DC, Portland OR, and SF. "Liberals" claim to stand for equality, opportunity, and "helping the poor", and yet low income folks are totally screwed by the lack of affordable housing in those cities. Environmentalism is used as a cover to prevent new housing from being built, protecting the property values of the "landed elite." I can't agree with this. New home building exploded during the housing bubble. The reason there are ghost towns in Florida and California right now is because home building was extraordinarily easy to accomplish. Property values are a direct result of: 1. safety 2. schools 3. climate 4. income There are homes in Oakland, CA selling for $2 million that are literally several miles away from homes selling for $30,000. The problem isn't environmentalists or building or even rent control. The problem is too many people with money displacing too many people without money. I'm not sure what article you were reading, but it sounds like a typical right wing hit piece. True liberals are not communists. They do not believe in financial equality nor are they hypocrites because they live better than other citizens do. A responsible liberal wants a sustainable economic system that allows anyone who is willing to work a livable wage and reasonable benefits.

29. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    29   10:56pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says New home building exploded during the housing bubble. The reason there are ghost towns in Florida and California right now is because home building was extraordinarily easy to accomplish. True, but much of the new construction was out in the "middle of nowhere" right? Are people going to commute from Bakersfield to good-paying jobs in San Jose? Florida is mainly a retirement home, it's not really a place with lots of high-paying jobs (unless you're into drug trafficking). iwog says I'm not sure what article you were reading, but it sounds like a typical right wing hit piece. True liberals are not communists. The article was an opinion piece from Bloomberg. I linked to it above. I don't think the article was accusing "liberals" of being communists. As far as I can tell, he was accusing wealthy liberals living in their "enclaves" as being hypocritical. I don't think anyone accuses liberals of being outright communists, save for your typical far-right propagandists like Hannity, O' Reilly and Limbaugh. But yeah there's so much "generalization" going on with all of this.

30. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 273 threads 12,494 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    30   11:04pm Sun 22 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   wthrfrk80 says True, but much of the new construction was out in the "middle of nowhere" right? Are people going to commute from Bakersfield to good-paying jobs in San Jose? Florida is mainly a retirement home, it's not really a place with lots of high-paying jobs (unless you're into drug trafficking). Yes most of it was in outlying areas where land was available to build on, however that's another problem with a city like San Francisco or New York. Where exactly are you going to build? Every square inch of property is already owned, and why build low cost housing when you can easily build high cost housing instead and make more money?

31. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    31   2:34am Mon 23 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   iwog says Every square inch of property is already owned, and why build low cost housing when you can easily build high cost housing instead and make more money? If land is expensive, people build "up" instead of "out." More humans per acre means cheaper housing. But zoning restrictions limit density. I guess we Americans don't like living in high-rise apartments.

32. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    32   7:43pm Mon 23 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   wthrfrk80 says The Original Bankster says Liberalism is simply the tool of what is left of imperialism. It's the 'babylon system' we've been warned about. What? That's a little extreme don't you think? no. California has SLAVERY, WIDESPREAD DRUG USE, SEXUAL DEBAUCHERY, BROKEN FAMILY, POLITICAL CORRUPTION, IRREPARABLY DAMAGED FINANCES... sounds a hell of a lot like every failed empire in history. but Californians insist their system is better because they allow gay marriage and they're sad when something bad happens to an Arab.

33. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    33   8:37pm Mon 23 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   have you ever thought about what the social effects of leverage are? everyone in California is so debt strapped they can't take any social risks... they MUST bring in that paycheck. They can't lose that job. It's just like Nazi Germany- everyone must conform or face a serious penalty(perhaps death). It's dangerous when you have a whole society deeply in debt AND living frivolously. California is the worst thing that's ever happened to humanity.

34. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    34   8:58pm Mon 23 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Wealth is about financial stability, and leverage offers you none of that. It's the ILLUSION of wealth that it provides. It gives the illusion that wealth is distributed in society when in reality: CALIFORNIA IS THE MOST UNEQUAL PLACE ON EARTH. Californicators are starting to catch on.

35. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,201 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    35   9:39pm Mon 23 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   The Original Bankster says Wealth is about financial stability, and leverage offers you none of that. It's the ILLUSION of wealth that it provides. It gives the illusion that wealth is distributed in society when in reality: CALIFORNIA IS THE MOST UNEQUAL PLACE ON EARTH. Californicators are starting to catch on. The San Francisco Treat The Original Bankster says have you ever thought about what the social effects of leverage are? everyone in California is so debt strapped they can't take any social risks... they MUST bring in that paycheck. They can't lose that job. It's just like Nazi Germany- everyone must conform or face a serious penalty(perhaps death). It's dangerous when you have a whole society deeply in debt AND living frivolously. California is the worst thing that's ever happened to humanity. The San Francisco Treat Dude, I think that Phoenix summer heat has gone to your head. Follow your bretheren to San Diego and enjoy what we in California have to offer.

36. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    36   9:43pm Mon 23 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   New renter says Dude, I think that Phoenix summer heat has gone to your head. Follow your bretheren to San Diego and enjoy what we in California have to offer. http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/

37. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    37   9:45pm Mon 23 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)   http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/28/10260959-oakland-assesses-city-hall-damage-after-occupy-break-in you Californians are going to go surfing while your state burns. stupid asses. I THINK ALL THE PROZAC HAS GOTTEN TO YOU BRO.

38. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    38   11:03pm Mon 23 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   The Original Bankster says you Californians are going to go surfing while your state burns. Another far-right troll going on ignore...

39. The Original Bankster Follow Befriend 4 threads 342 comments Phoenix, AZ The Original Bankster's website

    39   11:05pm Mon 23 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (3)   wthrfrk80 says The Original Bankster says you Californians are going to go surfing while your state burns. Another far-right troll going on ignore... another far-liberal nutjob ignoring everything around him.

40. iwog Follow Befriend (48) 273 threads 12,494 comments 47 male Lafayette, CA Premium

    40   5:52am Tue 24 Jul 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   wthrfrk80 says If land is expensive, people build "up" instead of "out." More humans per acre means cheaper housing. But zoning restrictions limit density. I guess we Americans don't like living in high-rise apartments. Well I don't see any lack of cheap housing in Oakland and elsewhere in the SF bay area. It's ghetto property, but that's hardly the fault of liberals. If people would listen to them and raise taxes there would be more resources available to fix things.

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