WatchCan you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.
Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.
Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.
Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
These links speak to theistic evolution.
http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1205
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB
If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.
If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
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DL
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The experiments in the video are not double-blind!!!
That said, the conclusion that morality is to a large degree instinctual is correct. And that is why morality is often flawed, because it's instinctual instead of thought out. Instinct is not the most reliable system, especially when your environment is nothing like the environment in which the instinct evolved.
Greatest I am says
Wrong question. God doesn't exist and therefore is irrelevant to morality.
As for not doing evil, we are all sophisticated decision making machines. Yes, we like the universe at large is deterministic, but we deterministically decide to do good or evil. I'm for using algorithms that favor good over evil.
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Greatest I am says
no we can not avoid commiting sin. Period.
God created freedom of choice between good and evil before he created Adam.
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Greatest I am says
wrong.
You can be/intend evil to yourself or even an animal/pet.
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Greatest I am says
only liberal/left/progressive/pink-o types are against fair play (aka competition). They hate keeping score and they hate winners.
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Bap33 says
That being the case, and you cannot help but follow your nature, is God just in punishing you for something that you cannot help doing?
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DL
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the sun light and the rain both touch the heads of the just and the unjust, the evil and the good. Sun was not created for just one or the other, neither was rain. Light and darkness are seen by both.
what is it you are looking for?
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If as you say, you cannot help but sin, then you are following your God given nature. You cannot go against your nature.
If God made you as you are, is it just for him to punish you for you being and doing exactly what he created you to do.
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DL
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yep, it's just.
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Bap33 says
By your standard, if you follow your God, if your child snores and cannot help himself or herself and is following their nature, you think it would be just for you to punish him or her for snoring. Right?
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DL
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nope. snoring is an involuntary act. punishment is for correcting a voluntary act. don't forget, I'm not God.
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Ice,
God created all. Everything. God created Satan. Every fiber of Satan's being was hand-built by God. The only thing God does not control is the Free-Will of his creations.
I'll put it really simple and Bible based:
1) Eternal Life is living in God's presence forever (Heaven)
2) Eternal Death is living away from God's presence forever (outer darkness, Hell, pit of fire)
1a) God created his presence. In His presence is where we find good, and love, and honor.
2a) God also created his absence. In His absebce is where we find evil, and hate, and dishonor. (and liberalism)
Sin, death, hate, cheating, Satan, these all reside away from God's presence, but they are created by God. WHen he created light, he also created darkness.
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Bap33 says
Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.
Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice.
God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard.
The definition I am comparing here is the eternal fire and torture type of hell and I am not particularly interested in the myriad of other definitions and theories that some use to supplant this traditional view.
To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these
simple question for yourself.
1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?
2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?
This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.
Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.
3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?
4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?
Is hell a moral construct or not?
Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because you think God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God.
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DL
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Ice says
Blaming Satan. How quaint. You make him co-creator with God . So much for God creating everything the way scriptures indicate. Then again, better to have Satan decide what is evil as God has no morals. If he did he would not use genocide against us and would cure instead of kill.
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB
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DL
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Bap33 says
Yet there is no proof that any God created anything.
All you have is hearsay and book say.
Without certainty on your part, what you say are lies.
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DL
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Satan is not evil, in fact, Satan is God's best friend.
-More people go to church and praise God not because they love God, rather they fear Hell.
-Satan corrals all the people God doesn't want to be in Heaven.
-God is all-knowing and all-powerful. If he didn't want Satan to be around anymore, he could snap his mighty fingers and Satan would disappear.
-Satan ratted out Eve as untrustworthy.
-They play games together all the time. For instance, God let Satan torture Job just to prove a point.
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Dan8267 says
That would be good for those you compete against because you would go extinct if you put their good before your own.
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DL
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StoutFiles says
Not to win a point so much as to win his immoral bet of self-aggrandisement.
Ok. That is a point.
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DL
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Greatest I am says
nope. something can be judged good or bad.
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Greatest I am says
In the Stone Age, you would be correct. Evil and corrupt morality exists because it served our genetic code in the Stone Age. But this is not the Stone Age; it is the Nuclear Age. Such corruption are the most likely cause of our extinction.
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Why is anyone tankilg about pathetic failure of religous beliefs? You might as well wallow in the dirt like some ignorant savages. The time for being controlled slaves is 100 years ago. So not fall victim to magic and bullshit.No-religion is the one defining thing that the red communists got correct!