http://www.wired.com/business/2012/08/silicon-valley-creates-jobs-but-not-for-everyone/
Silicon Valley Creating Jobs, But Not for Everyone
By tovarichpeter Follow Sun, 5 Aug 2012, 11:21am 2,495 views 31 comments
In South San Francisco CA 94080
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Maybe for the H-1B's, but top domestic grads can still send hundreds of resumes to Silicon Valley software and hardware firms, and receive not so much as a human response, nevermind serious and good faith consideration of their resumes.
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San Jose, CA
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Well, I think if you stop looking for work, because you are very discouraged-you are no longer considered "unemployed" by the stats. Or some such??
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lostand confused, new grads also aren't considered 'unemployed' because they never were employed to begin with, aren't eligible for unemployment benefits, etc.
This is why we have the bogus STEM unemployment figures as well -- new grads of STEM might take jobs as pizza delivery drivers, after which, the government officially considers them to be unemployed pizza delivery drivers, *not* unemployed computer scientists.
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It is sad, really.
I've heard that nowadays they require PhD's in physics or engineering from top tier schools like MIT or Cal to perform the same job I performed for $7 an hour as a part-time technician while I was in college.
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They only 'require PhD's in physics or engineering' because most of those folks are foreigners. The work would still get done, if, heaven forbid, they weren't allowed to hire the foreigners and they had to hire mere "part time [in college] technicians", with less language barriers and no curry smell to boot.
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Sorry, I meant to type "from top tier schools like MIT, Cal, etc." (yes, I know, foreigner children of the 1%'s from "back home" to be H-1'd)
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Ruki, you must be quite uncommon, as I know many individuals who have plastered the Valley with their resumes not even to receive the basic professional courtesy of a response from the employers (innudated with thousands of resumes per position).
Folks with EE/CS backgrounds, sometimes even Masters degrees. The common denominator -- they're all domestic grads, and not a lot of work experience.
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Mark77 says
Well, not everyone can work in that incredibly competitive area. If they would consider moving to less desirable places, they'd find work almost immediately.
A lot of people seem to say: "I want to work in Location A, and if I can't get a job in Location A then this degree is worthless and there are no jobs!" Sometimes you have to chin up, move somewhere less desirable, and build up some work experience. Who knows, you might even like the cheaper lifestyle and choose not to go back to Location A where everything costs a fortune.
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Ruki says
Just got to roll with the punches. Engineers should double in robot maintenance. If a robot has replaced one of your jobs, learn how to improve and maintain that robot.
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StoutFiles says
You do realize that in another generation, robotic maintenance will be done by other robots.
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Sunnyvale, CA
Based on 19 years working as a software engineer:
Mark77 says
All but a few (I can think of five over the last 19 years) of the software engineers I know are in positions closer to Ruki's (many interview at just one company validated by former co-workers to be sensible and take that job). A large percentage of the candidates worth hiring that I encounter professionally also get offers from elsewhere.
There are multiple tiers of software engineers.
Those at the top are beating recruiters off with metaphorical sticks, declining to interview for positions with compensation packages in the $200s before stock appreciation is considered, and accidentally getting job offers when they thought they just had an informal meeting with a CTO or engineering VP to see what's going on.
Those at the bottom (at least 99/100 of the folks brought in by the quality of recruiter you get with a contingency arrangement) lack one or more required aptitudes (which probably can't be learned, as opposed to skills which can).
I'm looking for
1. The ability to think logically, identify edge conditions, and express that
2. The ability to deal with indirection
3. The ability to apply knowledge to engineering problems.
4. The ability to grasp parallelism
which should be pre-requisites for a degree that will have limited use without them but aren't.
My favorite computer science professor who used to teach data structures agreed on at least the first three points. She had her teaching assistants grade students using an automated build system they created which checked code out of revision control software, built it with make, linked it against the TAs' unit test cases, and ran those test cases which is a lot like things should work in industry because bad things happen when they don't (I know one company with a founder that didn't believe in unit tests whose VCs rescinded their funding in part because their customers weren't happy with the quality, how long bug fixes took, and how predictable the release ship dates were).
People who graduated from that program were generally worth hiring.
Unfortunately the department was unhappy with the failure rate (it was allegedly 1 in 3) which ultimately meant less tuition for the department and they replaced her with a professor who thought less of programming assignments.
Most of the graduates after the change were no longer worth hiring (I don't know that 1 in 3 wasn't on the low side).
I speculate that other schools are producing incompetent graduates for similar reasons.
I don't care if the people I hire have any degree or where it came from although the course work which goes with a CS degree covers basics they need to grasp and interesting class projects can provide practical experience with a scope people are unlikely to get in industry prior to moving up the corporate ladder.
Although the HR department's official line may be different this still holds in most big companies. Amazon, Apple, EMC, Google, Microsoft, Quantum to name a few.
I'm also not looking for specific domain knowledge. Programming languages are similar enough that once a competent software person knows one in a given paradigm they can pick the rest up. Demarco and Lister note in _Peopleware: Productive Projects and Teams note that "There was no correlation between experience and performance except that those with less than six months' experience with the language used in the exercise did not do as well as the rest of the sample."
I do look for evidence that candidates with a few jobs under their belt have done similarly meaty things. Without that they're lacking either ability or motivation.
I do dig a bit when they claim experience with specific technologies to see if they show evidence of picking up the depth and breadth that other decent engineers should given a similar exposure.
Finally I don't ask hard questions. Everybody regardless of seniority gets the same three questions (they change some with time but not frequently). Good candidates often take 10 minutes for the first and under 5 for the second and third after which we talk about what they've done and I can get a feel for where they stand in relation to others in terms of the scope they can handle, creativity, whether they've picked up the things they should have for their years in industry or project scope, etc. Bottom tier candidates can struggle for 30-60 minutes on one question.
I don't care where people come from. America, China, India, Indonesia, Lebanon, Norway, Switzerland, Taiwan, or Turkey. I've worked in-person with good engineers from all those places and will do so again. Most of them were white men born in America.
No experience is a problem. Except perhaps with summer interns it's not worth taking the risk of being the first project to check whether some one can actually build software. This is entirely avoidable for job candidates - contributions to an open-source project or project class (my favorite was compiler construction, where teams of 2-3 students built compilers for a subset of 'C') are sufficient evidence. Not doing that suggests a lack of the passion which drives people to be better engineers.
One job of prior experience is fine for most positions. Good leadership can multiply the efforts of a bunch of junior people.
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Sure, that hiring criteria makes perfect sense, but with 1000+ resumes on your desk, do you really have the time to sort through them and find the folks who fit your criteria? Probably not. So a lot of great talent slips through the cracks, while folks like you complain they can't hire people.
That's what's so darn toxic about the environment out there. Resumes like mine, with a significant academic background in embedded system development, with demonstrable projects, code, et., don't even get looked at. I might be a $200k/year engineer, or I might be not even worth giving a laptop and a cubicle to even for an afternoon -- but without an interview, who will ever know?
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The Original Bankster's website
it's pretty simple people- no one is representing working people.
The Democrats haven't done it for years, instead they go after the Gay vote, the Illegal Alien vote, the Blackitty Black vote.
This is by design. Now there is no more middle class. There is practically no chance there will be another generation of middle class Americans. They're all broke.
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Aptos, CA
Ruki says
I couldn't agree more, because my experience in silicon valley is no one, and I mean no one offers healthcare. I mean look at HP, Apple, Intel, Google, Facebook, ... The list goes on and on. Even when they were small companies. No healthcare, no free donuts, no benefits.
I remember when I was a young whippersnapper for a company in SV, I had to scrimp and save to just get a bowl of ramen. I had to get by on a $92K a year + healthcare + profit sharing + bonus + deferred compensation + employ stock purchase program + stock options + a fully paid executive MBA program at Stanford. Yep Obamacare has taken that all away. A real kick to the nuts. Can you imagine a high tech company having to pay healthcare in silicon valley? Inconceivable!
The valley is ruined, we might as well go back to orchards.
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Phoenix, AZ
The Original Bankster's website
it's not only ruined as an employment "WEALTH GENERATING[1]" venue, it hasn't produced anything of real worth in years.
all these companies are spying on us and giving the information to the government. That's the only way they stay solvent, BECAUSE THEY DONT ACTUALLY MAKE MONEY FROM CUSTOMERS. doesn't anyone suspect a PUBLIC company that doesn't actually make money? You believed this stupid jerk tell you that all the rules have changed and you have nothing to worry about.
GET OFF THE FUCKING DRUGS CALIFORNIA.
[1] wealth generating for who?
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Ruki says
LOl!!! Are you being serious? Surely this must be sarcasm.
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The Original Bankster says
Illegals aliens don't vote. Gays are too small of a minority and concentrated in safe democratic states anyway-to make too much of a difference in swing states and your last whatever vote-because republicans don't want them. When so many open racists are embraced by the republicans-you still wonder why minorities vote dem? At least they won't get insulted.
Now if you cared to look at why no one represents the middle class-simple-follow the money. Repubs are almost solely funded by corporates-so they act like soulless critters from the nether region. They voted twice to kill medicare and many talk about ending social security. They have no qualms bailing out big banks or launching pseudo wars that cost us trillions and enrich Dubai based companies-Halliburton. The FEDS have no problem printing trillions to bail out big banks , but the common man-oh no.
Now the dems-they get 3 dollars of corporate money for every dollar of union money. So they do have divided loyalties. But when someone is giving you 3 bucks for every buck you are getting from the unions-no wonder the dems have embraced the corporate philosophy whole heartedly-though they do throw a few crumbs the middle class way and pretend to have a soul. But I don't see a single banker going to jail. So the only difference-one pretends to care and the other is more honest in their intentions-take your pick.
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Mark77 says
Companies are being incredibly picky because they can. It's up to you to craft your resume to their job specifications. I'm not saying to outright lie, but rewrite it to focus on the skills that you'd be using in that job. Of course, if you had an "in" with the company, you'd get an interview regardless. Helps to know people.
That said, if you're willing to move, there are plenty of jobs in America, just not in the most desirable areas.
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"It's up to you to craft your resume to their job specifications"
With 1000 resumes in the pile....does thaht even matter? And The problem a lot of this high-end talent faces is that they're termed 'overqualified' if they apply outside the field. If everyone (including employers) could move and avoid unemployment, certainly unemployment wouldn't be a problem, now would it? This is a systemic problem, not one that can just be 'moved' around.
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Multiple offer seems to be commonplace in the silly valley nowadays. I have a feeling an improving economy will not give jobs to the unemployed. We are constantly going through paradigm shifts and those who do not adapt will be left behind. Sadly, for good.
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Mountain View, CA
There are different kinds of tech jobs.
1A. Hardcore programmers: Java, Python, C++, etc
1B. Softcore programmers: here, people do some ABAP programming, write some SQL, support existing non-core applications (like SAP, Oracle apps, customizing oracle Apps)
2A. System, network, security engineers: those who are good in python/perl
2B. System, network, security, database, application admins: those who know shell scripting, but not good in python/perl.
3A: Desktop support (microsoft)
3B: System engineers supporting exchange and outlook with good scripting experience in powershell, VBScript, even perl
4. Project managers, Product managers, Program managers, Business Analysts
5. Middle management.
6. some old school tech folks: like writing some SAS script to pull out data for some bank/insurance company.
1A, 2A, 3B: no competition from H1Bs. In fact, you will get multiple offers
1B, 2B: expect competition from H1Bs
3A: stay unemployed, too much competition. You dont get paid much either
4: not so easy to get a full time gig, since every one is a manager nowadays. Too many chiefs, no indians. For Project mgmt, and BA roles, you may have to compete with H1Bs as well.
5: Too many chiefs, no Indians. If you are already employed, yes, you can get another ft offer because your old boss at the new company wants you.
6: if you loose your job, you have no other skills but to write those old 10 lines script. Stay unemployed.
That's what I see in the valley. That's the case in tech industry in general.
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The Original Bankster says
1) they are making money.
2) they're selling the information to the government, not just giving it to them.
3) you're not the customer, you're the product.
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Phoenix, AZ
The Original Bankster's website
StoutFiles says
why are we giving these elitists tax breaks? I always hear people talk like 'thems the breaks kid!' and overlook that the entire existence of these companies are DUE to state support and justified on the basis of job creation.
omgbacon says
most of the companies are not making money. They often lie about their incomes. Google to this day is not an attractive company on paper. It was created by US Intelligence and exists entirely for them. Their 'happy little innovators' image is simply a cover.
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Sunnyvale, CA
Mark77 says
No, although a cover letter which explains how you'll make my business better through satisfying and going beyond the posted job requirements and seems to reflect a genuine interest in the underlying technology almost guarantees a phone call.
(Such cover letters are exceedingly rare, not even 1 in 100)
Competence in the phone screen without evidence the resume was dishonest or obvious personality defects nets an interview.
That interview is an embarrassingly low bar for the sorts of people who can do the job. Our 20 year old college intern's response when I showed him what candidates were stumbling with was along the lines of "OMG! I can't believe people don't get that"
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People, the tech jobs are in Texas and yes, they need more experienced professionals. And for the most part, they are actively recruiting, unlike the companies fishing in the northeast corridor and SV.
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raindoctor says
That was one of the main packages used in biopharma back in the days.
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Mountain View, CA
Rin says
They still use it in many places. What I mean is this: they are many folks, who think that they are SAS experts, because they are running the same script or its variant for a couple of decades. And these folks have bought homes, and what not. All of sudden, they end up becoming jobless. Of course, they blame it on offshoring, etc. On the other hand, companies say that they are not finding the right talent! There is a truth on both sides.
For instance, startups want hardcore programmers, who have experience building commercial products. Large corporations can't keep hardcore programmers: so, you need to fill in with softcore or hardcore but not so-passionate programmers. You see, if one is looking for *passionate* programmer, good luck with that. Many have become programmers or in the IT industry for sake of living. If there is no living to be made, people look for other fields. Do people go to medical schools because they are passionate or because they wanna make more money by becoming specialists or both? Passionate ones are far and few between. Everyone is there for dough: whether it is admission at HYP (Harvard, Yale, Princeton), or HBS/Stanford GSB. It is reflected in real estate market as well: why people pay top dollar in Cupertino or Evergreen area? Is it to make their kids passionate about what they learn in Cupertino/Evergreen School district? Or is it about dough?
Learning has nothing to do with education. The greatest learners are those who are curious and study on their own, and learn. Education is for the employment. If it is HYP brand, you can work for Goldman sachs; if it is San Jose State, one can work for Enterprise Car rental.
Of course, they are some who are curious and want to learn at every school; this is minority, though!
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raindoctor says
The problem with passion is that it's difficult to get motivated with some corporate overlords trying to swipe credit for one's masterpieces.
Imagine the Mona Lisa being remembered as the greatest piece in the Borgia or Medici Inc line of products? But unfortunately, that's kinda what's happening and thus, when I see a passionate young fellow, I see a fool. That person was better off as a Doctor or a Patent Agent and then, he can code whatever he wants on the side with full credit.
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Sunnyvale, CA
raindoctor says
Large tech companies do a fairly good job retaining hardcore programmers they use for hardcore programming. Relatively speaking they're very nice places to work unless you compare them with younger companies where you have more control over process and have built new products in an environment where building infrastructure instead of leveraging existing intellectual property was the right business decision and value such things more than compensation package size. People recruited straight out of college or by way of other similar companies between school and their current position can't make that comparison and often stick around for years.
It depends on where you are in the product cycle and how much experience and therefore autonomy you want.
You can get passionate young people in their first few jobs regardless of where you are in the product cycle. Everything is still new and exciting and they don't yet know better.
Far into the product cycle you'll have have problems getting passionate people with 15 or 20 years of experience since they've probably seen things done better and have many better options in terms of job responsibilities and/or compensation package. That's OK because you probably either have enough people with that experience to not need more or don't value it and aren't going to make the product and process changes such experience will suggest for more customers, more rapid development cycles, more predictability, less dilution, and happier employees.
Before you've built a product hiring such people is easy since a large enough subset prefer building new things at companies yet to hire superfluous people who make work harder over compensation packages beyond $200K.
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Sunnyvale, CA
Rin says
Not really. Building software is still enjoyable even when it leads to some one taking credit and getting promoted to director (this is not a hypothetical example.) An exceptional seven course prixe fixe meal where they botch the desert might be a fine analogy - overall it's a great experience although the ending is disappointing. That'd be dead last on my list of common problems in the industry.
Software is a fine career when you really enjoy building software and are proficient at it. There are excellent perks on top of the enjoyable work. Hours are generally flexible (a few hours off in the middle of the day to go fly, starting at noon to accommodate morning bike rides, starting very early and leaving at 3 to be home with children are all reasonable). Merit based advancement is possible for good people who've yet to "put in their years". Pay can be great for a single person household mid-career (You max out your retirement accounts, will have your place paid off in under 15 years, fly planes, skydive, charter helicopters for other sports, and need to invest because you've run out of things you want to spend money on - also not a hypothetical example). Two years of school are about what it takes to clear the bar to entry provided that you have the required aptitudes.
Doctors seem to deal with patients on a fixed schedule and have been through a decade of training (pre-med, medical school, internship, residency). I've worked with patent agents and their job looked like technical writing but with good pay. Neither career ever interested me.
But with 40+ hours a week where that's not possible and 20+ man-year projects with interesting scope are impractical without minions that are much harder to get when there's no company to hire them for you.