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Toyota to start selling hydrogen fuel-cell car in 2015

By tovarichpeter   Follow   Wed, 8 Aug 2012, 10:13am   5,091 views   60 comments
In South San Francisco CA 94080   Watch (1)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/08/toyota-to-start-selling-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-in-2015/1#.UCKdPvaPWz5

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1. justme Follow Befriend (2) 33 threads 3,460 comments

   21   10:58am Sun 12 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   lostand confused says Now if they can only find a good way to produce energy from methane. That statement was good for a joke about politicians, but as we all should be aware, methane (CH4) is basically what natural gas is. We use it all the time for heating, industrial production and in electrical power stations all across the country.

2. justme Follow Befriend (2) 33 threads 3,460 comments

   22   11:07am Sun 12 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   John Bailo says In fact, hydrogen is a competitor to expensive overhead power lines and is less "lossy". Wrong. Electrical power distribution is about 93% efficient in the US. Hydrogen distribution, including compression either before or after the pipeline (most likely after because of technical difficulty) would be nowhere close to 93% efficient.

3. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

   23   2:19pm Sun 12 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   justme says John Bailo says In fact, hydrogen is a competitor to expensive overhead power lines and is less "lossy". Wrong. Electrical power distribution is about 93% efficient in the US. Hydrogen distribution, including compression either before or after the pipeline (most likely after because of technical difficulty) would be nowhere close to 93% efficient. Can you back that number up with a reference?

4. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

   24   2:52pm Sun 12 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   TMAC54 says Hydrogen cost will equate to about $5.00 per gallon. CNG costs about $2.14/gal gasoline gallon equivalent (GGE) here in northern CA at a PG&E station: http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/GAS_SCHEDS_G-NGV2.pdf Filling at home is even cheaper @ $1.35 GGE http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/GAS_SCHEDS_G-1.pdf Mind you here in northern CA we haves some of the most expensive utility rates in the country. Other parts of the country are likely to see even lower prices. TMAC54 says We will be out of gas within 100 years. The stories you are told about having centuries worth of natural gas, be skeptical. As for the availability of methane the 100 year supply is not taking into consideration the methyl hydrate reserves known to exist at the bottom of the world's oceans. These add anywhere from hundreds to thousands of years of energy supply at current consumption levels. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/methane-hydrate-technology-fuels-a-new-energy-regime/article4178875/ Heck even without these reserves 100 years is pretty impressive. Now does $5/GGE for hydrogen still sound good? Didn't think so.

5. TMAC54 Follow Befriend (9) 70 threads 930 comments San Leandro, CA

   25   7:43am Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   justme says TMAC54 and John Bailo, On this topic (Hydrogen) you are uninformed. Learn the science of energy. Read the papers I pointed to. Engineering today is working on more efficient batteries and cheaper more efficient Hydrogen processing as well as more wind farms, thermo energy etc. etc.. Most people acknowledge we will have to rely on a combination of energy sources. You seem adamant on stopping hydrogen. Did you invest heavily in CNG ? You are passionate in your anti hydrogen protest. Do you believe the present engineering and prototypes are a scam to rip off the public ? Are you under the impression that natural gas is cheaper therefore an answer to ALL our future energy needs ?

6. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

   26   10:38am Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   TMAC54 says Engineering today is working on more efficient batteries and cheaper more efficient Hydrogen processing as well as more wind farms, thermo energy etc. etc.. Most people acknowledge we will have to rely on a combination of energy sources. You seem adamant on stopping hydrogen. Did you invest heavily in CNG ? You are passionate in your anti hydrogen protest. Do you believe the present engineering and prototypes are a scam to rip off the public ? Are you under the impression that natural gas is cheaper therefore an answer to ALL our future energy needs ? TMAC54 From the wikipedia article on the hydrogen economy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy Efficiency as an automotive fuel Main article: Hydrogen fuel Hydrogen has been called one of the least efficient and most expensive possible replacements for gasoline (petrol) in terms of reducing greenhouse gases; other technologies may be less expensive and more quickly implemented.[48][49] A comprehensive study of hydrogen in transportation applications has found that "there are major hurdles on the path to achieving the vision of the hydrogen economy; the path will not be simple or straightforward".[4] Although Ford Motor Company and French Renault-Nissan cancelled their hydrogen car R&D efforts in 2008 and 2009, respectively,[50][51] they signed a 2009 letter of intent with the other manufacturers and Now GMBH in September 2009 supporting the commercial introduction of FCVs by 2015.[52] Seems pretty clear to me. How about you - do YOU have an investment in the hydrogen economy?

7. thunderlips11 Follow Befriend (13) 52 threads 2,639 comments Premium

   27   11:17am Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   People are adamant about preserving their lifestyle and resisting change. The high cost of energy is going to do away with suburbs and the car. Don't count on Magic Fuels of the Future (tm) to save Springfield and the Sedan.

8. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

   28   11:51am Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   thunderlips11 says People are adamant about preserving their lifestyle and resisting change. The high cost of energy is going to do away with suburbs and the car. Don't count on Magic Fuels of the Future (tm) to save Springfield and the Sedan. Homo Economicus. A Legendary Creature, like Bigfoot, claimed to exist by Pseudoscientists. I would not write off the car just yet. AS I've pointed out above CNG is cheap and readily available. CNG only vehicles can be an excellent solution, just ask IWOG. As I pointed out above taking the next step to bi-fuel diesel/CNG cars can solve many of the problems of today's cars with only minor changes to existing products. Further development may make them even more attractive, for instance hybridization with super capacitors may help in-town performance at minimal cost. I have seen claims that a diesel engine can be designed to run on lubricating oil - imagine the longevity of an IC engine with a constant supply of fresh,clean lubricant. IMHO diesel and CNG have a lot of potential.

9. justme Follow Befriend (2) 33 threads 3,460 comments

   29   12:53pm Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   New renter says Can you back that number up with a reference? You bet I can: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_ele_pow_tra_and_dis_los_of_out-power-transmission-distribution-losses-output/ Unites States was at 6.39% in electrical transmission losses in 2004.

10. justme Follow Befriend (2) 33 threads 3,460 comments

    30   1:05pm Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   TMAC54 says You seem adamant on stopping hydrogen. Did you invest heavily in CNG ? You are passionate in your anti hydrogen protest. Do you believe the present engineering and prototypes are a scam to rip off the public ? Are you under the impression that natural gas is cheaper therefore an answer to ALL our future energy needs ? TMAC54, I want to stop hydrogen because it is a genuinely BAD IDEA that will make all our lives much worse than they have to be. YES, hydrogen is a total scam. It is supported by people who are ignorant of the facts, engage in wishful thinking, do not care about the consequences, or simply want to preserve the status quo of our oil/coal/carbon-based energy economy as long as they can get a way with doing so. Or some combination of the above. Why are you questioning my motives instead of reading the science? I have provided ample reading material that will analyze and spell out in detail why H2 is an amazingly bad idea. I have not said anywhere that CNG is a permanent solution to anything. You are putting words in my mouth. All I said was that man-made hydrogen, whether from CNG or electricity or any other source, is a waste of the otherwise good energy put into the process. Believing in the hydrogen-fairy prevents us from taking productive steps to save fossile fuels and develop renewable energy sources. THAT is why I am against it. Plus it is a colossal waste of taxpayer money.

11. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    31   1:42pm Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   justme says Believing in the hydrogen-fairy prevents us from taking productive steps to save fossile fuels and develop renewable energy sources. THAT is why I am against it. Plus it is a colossal waste of taxpayer money. Agreed. Remember all the hype for corn based ethanol? How's that working out for us non-farmers so far? That said ethanol may be of some use IF cellulose based ethanol ever comes to fruition. Until then though ethanol is better used in cocktails than fuel tanks Fun fact, a few years ago a fungus was discovered in Patagonia that is capable of producing diesel fuel DIRECTLY from wood! https://share.sandia.gov/news/resources/news_releases/fungi-based-biofuels/ In addition the US military has set a goal to switch to 100% biofuels by 2040: https://share.sandia.gov/news/resources/news_releases/fungi-based-biofuels/ The future is looking bright for Diesel and CNG.

12. edvard2 Follow Befriend 34 threads 2,111 comments

    32   1:48pm Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   TMAC54 says You are right, Fuel cells are an expensive little machine but becoming cheaper. Hydrogen cost will equate to about $5.00 per gallon My point wasn't about the cost of the engines and drivetrains but rather the fuel itself. It takes more energy to produce hydrogen than hydrogen itself produces. So it is by just the energy form itself inefficient.

13. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    33   1:49pm Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   justme says New renter says Can you back that number up with a reference? You bet I can: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_ele_pow_tra_and_dis_los_of_out-power-transmission-distribution-losses-output/ Unites States was at 6.39% in electrical transmission losses in 2004. Thank you.

14. justme Follow Befriend (2) 33 threads 3,460 comments

    34   2:11pm Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   someone says http://cafcp.org/ By the way, for the record, and not mean as a slight of TMAC54 or any other poster, but the above site is nothing but fluffy hydrogen propaganda. There is no science behind it.

15. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    35   2:46pm Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   justme says someone says http://cafcp.org/ By the way, for the record, and not mean as a slight of TMAC54 or any other poster, but the above site is nothing but fluffy hydrogen propaganda. There is no science behind it. Sounds like the NAR

16. TMAC54 Follow Befriend (9) 70 threads 930 comments San Leandro, CA

    36   11:04pm Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   justme says http://cafcp.org/ By the way, for the record, and not mean as a slight of TMAC54 or any other poster, but the above site is nothing but fluffy hydrogen propaganda. There is no science behind it. I am still not getting any merit from your anti Hydrogen Argument other than the fuels present cost to process. Let's pit the Hydrogen industries against the propane industries and see if the costs will soon become competitive. That is the American way. I also see opportunity for the average citizen to eliminate the need for PGE with this technology. Yes I did invest in the fuel cell manufacturer "Ballard". When they where offering personal size units. Hopefully readers will peruse the organization and maybe test drive a "fluffy" hydrogen car as I and friends & family have. They frequently have local organized car shows and allow one on one questions with engineers and college students who will continue improvements and reduce costs of this energy source. &feature=related Lease a B-Class F-Cell vehicle http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/benz/green#module-6 Be one of the first to lease a B-Class F-Cell vehicle - the first Zero Emission Mercedes-Benz available. A limited number of these vehicles are available for customers in Los Angeles and the San Francisco Bay area. If your fear stems from the Hindenberg derigible incident. Hydrogen is ten times safer than gasoline. If a gas tank ruptures it spreads along the ground.

17. TMAC54 Follow Befriend (9) 70 threads 930 comments San Leandro, CA

    37   11:23pm Mon 13 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   New renter says Believing in the hydrogen-fairy prevents us from taking productive steps to save fossile fuels and develop renewable energy sources. THAT is why I am against it. Plus it is a colossal waste of taxpayer money. Your statement is difficult for me to understand. Are you saying that the use of Hydrogen will not allow us to save oil, gas, coal etc. ? You also state "The use of hydrogen prevents us from developing other energy sources". Why ? I believe, Developing Hydrogen powered vehicles means we would no longer be ADDICTED to fossil fuels. Hydrogen being the most plentiful element in the cosmos, Doesn't get much more renewable than that. I am not aware of any taxpayer contributions, but if it cripples the OPECkers cartels, Would you pay some colossal taxes ? k

18. justme Follow Befriend (2) 33 threads 3,460 comments

    38   12:20am Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Sigh, TMAC54. Have you understood anything of what I have written at all? TMAC54 says Hydrogen being the most plentiful element in the cosmos, Doesn't get much more renewable than that. Saying that H2O is plentiful therefore H2 is plentiful is as dumb as saying that since CO2 is plentiful then C is plentiful. It is just plain wrong!! You need to add in MORE energy than what you get back out to make H2 from H2O and C from CO2. Do you need more examples? A pile of ash does not make firewood plentiful. A pile of dung does not make food plentiful. TMAC54 says I believe, Developing Hydrogen powered vehicles means we would no longer be ADDICTED to fossil fuels. You just don't get it, do you. We currently get most of our electricity from Coal and Natgas, which are fossil fuels. So H2 is made from fossil fuels, either directly or indirectly, and at a lower efficiency than by just using the electricity directly in cars. EVEN IF we had ALL our electricity from solar and other use-it-or-lose-it resources, it STILL does no make energy sense to produce man-made hydrogen. Man-made H2 is still a net LOSS of energy relative to just using the other sources directly. What is the problem here, do you just not believe me, or is first-year college physics too difficult to comprehend? Any person with a modest knowledge of physics can tell you that what I say here is the absolute and incontrovertible truth! I guess the hydrogen fairy has the power to make people completely blind to simple truth.

19. TMAC54 Follow Befriend (9) 70 threads 930 comments San Leandro, CA

    39   7:43am Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   justme says What is the problem here, do you just not believe me, or is first-year college physics too difficult to comprehend? Any person with a modest knowledge of physics can tell you that what I say here is the absolute and incontrovertible truth! I guess the hydrogen fairy has the power to make people completely blind to simple truth. Name calling is an Interesting approach to solving world energy concerns. You are passionate about your use of existing resources, much like present day gubmint borrowing 16 trillion dollars ignoring imminent dangers. Yes the cost to produce hydrogen is expensive. We invite innovative minds to improve this technology to mitigate shock that WILL be realized when other sources are depleted. Your plan is to exhaust existing resources. Hydrogen's plan is to provide alternate and even primary benefits to energy's needs far into the future.

20. justme Follow Befriend (2) 33 threads 3,460 comments

    40   8:24am Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   TMAC54 says You are passionate about your use of existing resources, much like present day gubmint borrowing 16 trillion dollars ignoring imminent dangers. Oh, since I have explained that hydrogen is a fraud, I just must be "passionate about my use of existing resources". That just a plain lie. I want to save as many existing resources as possible. And what on earth does that have to do with the level of the public debt? That's the most twisted analogy I have seen in a long while, and that is to say something. TMAC54 says Yes the cost to produce hydrogen is expensive. We invite innovative minds to improve this technology to mitigate shock that WILL be realized when other sources are depleted. Hello? I have explained that the cost of H2, by the laws of physics, must be higher per usable energy unit, than the cost of the electrical energy put into the process of making the H2. It CANNOT be less. No innovation or technology can ever change this fact. Both the cost and the CO2 emissions from making hydrogen will be substantially larger than using electricity directly for productive purposes. How many times do I have to say this? Have you actually read and understood what i have tried to explain to you? Man-made hydrogen is an awful waste of existing resources. End of story.

21. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    41   8:35am Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   OK, Lets try this again: TMAC54 says Let's pit the Hydrogen industries against the propane industries and see if the costs will soon become competitive. Propane is not methane. Plus I already did pit hydrogen vs methane remember? New renter says TMAC54 says Hydrogen cost will equate to about $5.00 per gallon. CNG costs about $2.14/gal gasoline gallon equivalent (GGE) here in northern CA at a PG&E station: http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/GAS_SCHEDS_G-NGV2.pdf Filling at home is even cheaper @ $1.35 GGE http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/GAS_SCHEDS_G-1.pdf Mind you here in northern CA we haves some of the most expensive utility rates in the country. Other parts of the country are likely to see even lower prices. Methane even in one of the most expensive markets in the country wins by a long shot. TMAC54 says You also state "The use of hydrogen prevents us from developing other energy sources". Why ? Yes it will - money spent on developing hydrogen cannot be spent on developing something that will actually work effectively. TMAC54 says I believe, Developing Hydrogen powered vehicles means we would no longer be ADDICTED to fossil fuels. As I have said earlier you are confusing elemental hydrogen with molecular hydrogen. For hydrogen to be a fuel it must be generated. Yes you can use wind/wave/solar but even in a best case scenario these technologies will be unlikely to provide enough power. The shortfall will come from fossil fuels. justme has a very good analogy here - there is plenty of carbon in ash but you can't burn it. TMAC54 says I am not aware of any taxpayer contributions, but if it cripples the OPECkers cartels, Would you pay some colossal taxes ? Not if my taxes are squandered as they have in most alternative energy programs. Again I refer you to our recent folly into ethanol as a fuel. At least we have plenty of booze with which to drown our sorrows... TMAC54 says Name calling is an Interesting approach to solving world energy concerns. You are passionate about your use of existing resources, much like present day gubmint borrowing 16 trillion dollars ignoring imminent dangers. I assure you hydrogen will just make this worse. TMAC54 says Yes the cost to produce hydrogen is expensive. We invite innovative minds to improve this technology to mitigate shock that WILL be realized when other sources are depleted. Your plan is to exhaust existing resources. Hydrogen's plan is to provide alternate and even primary benefits to energy's needs far into the future. Speaking as a scientist/engineer who knows something about energy I strongly encourage you to take some science courses. You clearly have a passion for energy solutions but you really need to strengthen your understanding of what justme and I have tried to relay to you here. As it is you are a prime target for unscrupulous financiers. This is not name calling. People are fleeced all the time because they don't understand the science: 200MPG carburetor http://www.motorsportsartist.com/nogod/urban-legend/gas-millage-hoaxes/ Water purification scams: http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ Hint - if the manufacturer quotes scripture its almost guaranteed to be a scam. I list these as examples because they are obvious. The hydrogen economy - as you have demonstrated in this thread - is being sold on emotion, not science. Justme and I have presented strong evidence to you which you do not seem to have read or understood. I can't speak for justme but I will happily sing the praises of the hydrogen economy if I am presented with convincing hard scientific or economic evidence to do so. As it is everything you have shown here has done the opposite - you have shown it to be nothing but a red herring. I'm truly sorry you put money into this boondoggle.

22. Quigley Follow Befriend (6) 17 threads 524 comments Huntington Beach, CA

    42   10:41am Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   It would help of you thought of hydrogen fuel cells as very expensive batteries. They work much like the rechargeable batteries you buy at Walmart. They store energy chemically and convert the energy into electric current when tasked with demand. The difference is: the batteries from Walmart are not only cheaper, they're more efficient. You have to buy man-made hydrogen for the fuel cell, which is much more expensive per btu than electricity. That's because it's inefficient to produce. Hydrogen fuel cell batteries have one clear advantage: capacity. Of all commercially available batteries, they hold the most "charge." this makes them viable as the power source for an electric car. Once chemical or composite batteries catch up to the fuel cell in this regard, the fuel cell tech will be utterly obsolete. I've read about super capacitors based on the model of an onion that can hold amazing amounts of electricity! This tech hasnt hit the market yet, but when it does we are talking laptop batteries that last a month.

23. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    43   11:35am Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Ruki and Quigley Well put!

24. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    44   11:38am Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Quigley says I've read about super capacitors based on the model of an onion that can hold amazing amounts of electricity! This tech hasnt hit the market yet, but when it does we are talking laptop batteries that last a month. http://news.discovery.com/tech/super-capacitor-power-energy.html

25. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    45   11:40am Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Quigley says Hydrogen fuel cell batteries have one clear advantage: capacity. Of all commercially available batteries, they hold the most "charge." this makes them viable as the power source for an electric car. I still have yet to see why they are superior to methane cells if cells are to be used.

26. Quigley Follow Befriend (6) 17 threads 524 comments Huntington Beach, CA

    46   2:23pm Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   I've not seen anything about methane fuel cells unless you are referring to CNG tanks? Methane IMHO is an awesome fuel we should be using in more cars than just that one hard to find Honda. Yes there are conversion kits available, but I think other countries have a better history of doing these conversions than we do. It would be awesome to have a CNG vehicle and fill up with a compressor at home. Electric cars are the next wave of the future. Once the battery problem has been solved, maybe with super capacitors? Then people will find those to be the best sort of car around. Most efficient, cheap to operate, and lowest maintenance. For the go-fast motor heads, electric motors can produce unmatched torque, so they could be über fast. I work with electric motors all the time. They do need some maintenance but not that much. Change the brushes (if DC), lube the bearings, and make sure the housing doesn't get too dirty and they will run crazy long.

27. Dan8267 Follow Befriend (16) 764 threads 7,710 comments Boca Raton, FL Premium

    47   4:45pm Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike

28. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    48   5:19pm Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Dan8267 says Sigh, someday...

29. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    49   5:27pm Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Quigley says I've not seen anything about methane fuel cells unless you are referring to CNG tanks? No, I am referring to CNG powered fuel cells. There are a few companies that make them but so far only for stationary industrial applications. http://www.wwdmag.com/wastewater/fuel-cell-uses-methane-power-plant http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1756 http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6816773n Mobile products may be on the way, stay tuned.

30. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    50   5:45pm Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Quigley says Methane IMHO is an awesome fuel we should be using in more cars than just that one hard to find Honda. Check craigslist, you can often find used CNG vehicles there cheap. Quigley says It would be awesome to have a CNG vehicle and fill up with a compressor at home. Home compressors are very expensive. Until the price drops by an order of magnitude the cost is hard to justify. http://www.brcfuelmaker.it/eng/casa/phill.asp?click=no http://gigaom.com/cleantech/fuelmaker-assets-finally-find-a-buyer-natural-gas-cars-still-stalled/ There may be rebates offered by your utility company that can help some.

31. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    51   5:54pm Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Quigley says Electric cars are the next wave of the future. Once the battery problem has been solved, maybe with super capacitors? Or on board generators. That is what we do today. My vision is for an AWD series hybrid EV. One motor for the front wheels, one for the back. It would have all electric power accessories (steering, brakes, A/C) and electric assist for the heater when the motor is cold. The motor would be either a low speed bi-fuel CNG/Diesel motor to provide extra power as necessary OR a CNG fuel cell, depending on which is more economical. The electric power would be stored in a combination of supercapacators for peak demand adn quick charging with batteries for more constant draw. Every home would have an all in one charge port to provide diesel and/or CNG and electrical power. On a full charge the car would have between 700-1000 miles of charge. Fill times would be no longer than today's hybrids

32. justme Follow Befriend (2) 33 threads 3,460 comments

    52   7:42pm Tue 14 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Ruki says You should read Robert Zubrin's work on this Here is a link: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-hydrogen-hoax Robert Zubrin's articles on Hydrogen are a bit easier to read than the Ulf Bossel collection that I recommended earlier. Start with Zubrin and then graduate to Bossel if you need more calculations and detail. The conclusions are the same: The hydrogen economy is complete bunk and bad for everyone.

33. TMAC54 Follow Befriend (9) 70 threads 930 comments San Leandro, CA

    53   7:04am Wed 15 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   The US continues to remain the largest regional market for hydrogen. Europe represents the fastest growing regional market displaying an annual growth rate of about 10.2% over the analysis period. Hydrogen Production Technologies continues to be the largest and the fastest growing segment, the company found. http://www.h2journal.com/displaynews.php?NewsID=694 Improvements to batteries is stagnant. Hydrogen processing is in it's infancy. Which is most attractive as investment potential ?

34. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    54   8:00am Wed 15 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   TMAC54 says Improvements to batteries is stagnant. Hydrogen processing is in it's infancy. Which is most attractive as investment potential ? Ah I see where you are going with this. RE here in the Bay area is finite, very expensive and new construction all but stopped. Martian and Lunar RE on the other hand are wide open! Think of the investment potential! To get to your property you'll need a rocket, probably powered by hydrogen. Jump in now bitches, or be stuck here on earth forever

35. justme Follow Befriend (2) 33 threads 3,460 comments

    55   12:10pm Thu 16 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Well, yeah, it is becoming clear that TMAC54 has invested in hydrogen and no amount of truth is going to make him realize that hydrogen is just bunk.

36. freak80 Follow Befriend (4) 52 threads 4,416 comments Corning, NY Premium

    56   12:20pm Thu 16 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Hydrogen is joke. You have to "make" it with existing energy sources (like coal, natural gas, and oil). It's *not* a source of energy! It's a distraction cooked up by politicians and fossil fuel companies. They know people are dumb sheep.

37. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    57   6:58pm Thu 16 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   justme says Well, yeah, it is becoming clear that TMAC54 has invested in hydrogen and no amount of truth is going to make him realize that hydrogen is just bunk. Yes there is - the truth of his stock value evaporating like so much Pets.com

38. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    58   8:44pm Thu 16 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   freak80 says Hydrogen is joke. You have to "make" it with existing energy sources (like coal, natural gas, and oil). It's *not* a source of energy! It's a distraction cooked up by politicians and fossil fuel companies. They know people are dumb sheep. BAAAAA!!!!

39. TMAC54 Follow Befriend (9) 70 threads 930 comments San Leandro, CA

    59   10:19pm Thu 16 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Decisions, decisions. Gotta way these pros & Cons. Lets see here. Mercedes, Toyota, Air Products, Ballard Power, Most major cities around the globe, etc., or a couple angry scientists and their shadow on the web ? Tough tough decision. Thanks for the education though. I got some enlightening benefits, sociologically and on fuel sources. If you guys really want to get your point across, I suggest this book. Yes the cost of processing hydrogen will be higher than petroleum based products, but we need another fuel to satisfy many of our humanly needs and hydrogen is rising to the top of potential sources.

40. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    60   10:19am Fri 17 Aug 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   TMAC54 says Decisions, decisions. Gotta way these pros & Cons. Lets see here. Mercedes, Toyota, Air Products, Ballard Power, Most major cities around the globe, etc., or a couple angry scientists and their shadow on the web ? Actually the question is who is going to be more objective - You as a science ignorant investor in the hydrogen economy along with corporations being paid millions by governments for R&D into this field OR Scientists and engineers who have no dog in the fight other than not wanting to squander yet more of their tax dollars and whom use basic physical laws to argue their points? TMAC54 you have yet to present anything other than some rosy non-scientific press releases that argue why hydrogen is any better than methane. Tell you what - I'll provide you a list of talking points and you go ahead and add your scientific proof. You don't even need to do them all, just enough to show that hydrogen has SOME scientifically compelling advantages. Hydrogen as a fuel is safer than methane - (Insert proof here) Hydrogen as a fuel is cheaper overall than methane - (Insert proof here) Terrestrial (diatomic) hydrogen reserves are more abundant than methane - (Insert proof here) Hydrogen is easier and/or convenient to transport and store than methane - (Insert proof here) The existing infrastructure to support hydrogen as a fuel is more sophisticated than that of methane - (Insert proof here) (diatomic) Hydrogen requires less energy to create and refine into fuel than methane - (Insert proof here) Converting methane to hydrogen to be used as a fuel is more efficient than just using the methane directly - (Insert proof here) Good luck BTW cute book but completely irrelevant to this discussion. Please try to stay on topic.

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