Watchhttp://rt.com/usa/news/florida-man-police-kill-325/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-20124838/police-seeking-robber-kill-unarmed-innocent-man/
Also I heard this on story on NPR this morning. The police, realizing they murdered an innocent man, made up a story about him pointing a gun at them.
These cops should be charge with at least second degree murder. They illegally enter a private home of an innocent person and kill him. The police are far more dangerous to society than other criminals because the courts protect the illegal activities of the police.
The term "probably cause" has come to mean any whim a cop has.
Unless these police are prosecuted as fully as any civilian would be, the entire country will continue to be in danger from barbaric lawless law enforcers.
The pro-gun right conservatives should be the most outraged about this as the police murdered this man, in effect, for being a legally armed man defending his home from invaders who did not identify themselves as police while they were bashing in his door.
If I hear anything from the right other than absolute condemnation of the police, outrage at their behavior, and calls for prosecution, I'm going to call bullshit on the entire right wing.
If the right believes in any of the social policies they preach, they should be as outraged as us liberals on this murder. Especially since murders like this happen way more often than some crazy shooting up a theater or terrorist attacks.
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Surprised they didn't plant a half-smoked reefer.
When Right-wingers speak of freedom that really mean obeying cops, clerics, and other mustachioed 'infallible' father figure types.
We need the "No Resisting Arrest without Other Charges". IE If you aren't charged with anything, you can't be charged with resisting arrest: Aren't you right to resist arrest if they have absolutely nothing to charge you with? Resisting arrest is one of those crimes where cops can make up complete bullshit and get away with it.
(Removed off topic rant, but put it back in after response post)
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thunderlips11 says
Yes to all of it
But I'll tell you how they get away with it. The wrong people keep making the wrong issue out of it. It's always reported as a Black discrimination issue, which is complete rubbish, and it is always discarded. This is an American freedom problem and a liberty threat.
Until we start treating the issue as a breach of Democracy and Freedom instead of "Race Bait", then Cops will continue to make up Laws, that everyone violates.
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Captain, totally agree. It's not always race, sometimes it's just abuse of power.
Cops have entirely too much power. Sadly, it's because so many Americans, the otherwise normal, responsible ones, often try to get out of Jury Duty, leaving dumbasses and cranky old farts with nothing better to do in the Box.
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This happens way too often these days. Public Union employees with badges are above the law - they can kill anyone with impunity, and then - professional liars they are - come up with a fairy tales how "suspect" supposedly "made threatening move", or "looked like was reaching for his waist", or "resisted arrest". Their buddies and superiors will collaborate their story, and government stenographers in the media will rehash the official police story.
The only thing one can do, is whenever on a jury, always, ALWAYS distrust what any government employee has to say - especially cop - and always rule against them. 99.99999% of the cases you will be correct.
Here:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/111611.html
and more:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-arch.html
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One more point - It is beyond comprehensible how some frame the discussion in the right-left frame.
I know most people (myself included) went through years of brainwashing and propaganda of publiK sKooling, I know some still watch lame-stream government stenographers on TV, but com'on, everyone should undestand these simple truths:
1. There is about 2 inch of a difference between right and left. The wars, the bailouts, welfarism - both parties are in sync on the major issues. They'll throw in couple of artificial differences - school "choice", abortion, how to socialize healthcare - both solutions are fascist-socialist and almost the same - just to pretend there is difference - but it's just a distraction
2. The debate can only be framed as Them (Tax eaters, Government, Government contractors, government parasites) versus Us (Tax victims, private sector workers, people making honest living).
Cops are public union government employees. Parasites. They serve the government, they serve to protect government against we the people. If once in a life cop does something useful for you - it's an exception to the rule, it's an exception to the design. Ditto for other public union/government employees, such as teacher unions.
Exceptions are some privately hired sheriffs and peace officers - they are very few and more like a relic from the past.
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There's a difference between HOW parties govern, and the makeup of their base.
You're far more likely to find people who identify as Republicans cheering on Police Brutality, Bullshit Charges, etc. and less likely to find those who identify as Democrat doing the same thing.
Of course, there are libertarian leaning Republicans, and other Republicans who are suspicious of cops, but they are a minority, even if they are substantial.
See the posts on this very board - a poster's political affiliation was the best indicator of what they felt about Zimmerman and the Authorities letting him off (before the story broke nationally and the State of Florida was forced by public pressure to intervene). When the drudgereport - and Drudge has a libertarian bent - posts a link involving suspicious cop behavior - that link will be swamped with "Well, (Victim) should have obeyed/licked the balls of the authorities" comments from his mostly right wing leaders. I doubt the same happens when Mother Jones links an article about bad cop behavior.
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thunderlips11 says
There is no difference whatsoever with how both parties govern - if you remove irrelevant noise.
The only difference - is different interest groups get some loot - but all at the expense of the taxpayer.
When Bushites or Reagans talk free market - they pass Pharmacare (medicare part D), they grow spending, they pass american with disabilities act, they regulate the heck out of small business.
When Clintons and Obamas talk about civil liberties - they expand the police state, the drones, the concentration camps, the fake war on terror, the spying, the CIA, they pass NDAA.
I can go on and on, but let me summarize instead - if anyone believes there is a difference worth a dime between the two - they need to wake the F#$@ up!
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thunderlips11 says
Unfortunate, but true.
thunderlips11 says
Absolutely agreed. Also, disorderly conduct should be removed from the law books and all people convicted of it should be retroactively found innocent and compensated. Furthermore, there should be very high standards of proof for obstruction of justice. Finally, any charge which is not affirmed to be correct by a jury should result in penalties for whatever state organization and individual brought up the charge. This includes obstruction of justice charges, and this includes charges that are later dropped.
CaptainShuddup says
Agreed. Race is irrelevant in this case and this problem. I don’t know or care about the races of the people involved.
The problem is one of cops thinking they are above the law and courts agreeing out of convenience to the state’s interests.
AlexS says
Absolutely! Wow, I’m agreeing with everybody here. It’s a nice change.
Also, watch 12 Angry Men. This should be required viewing for any jury prospect.
AlexS says
I’m hoping the conservatives and the leftists can agree with us liberals on this issue. Still waiting for people like Ruki, Bap33, TenOunceTrout, and other conservatives to chime in.
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Of course the cops lied. Saw a video the other day of a Penn guy. basically a goof, who was beaten close to death, in a routine traffic stop, by police and charged with all sorts of made up shit and is rotting in prison, likely will just die there after being stomped and raped to death by neonazis. Cop broke his hand beating this guys face - and they brought an ambulance for the cop, even though the kids head was wide open. Every charge was bogus.
The only response to a knocked door these days is a tactical nuke. The cops are hyper-entitled murderous psychopaths who regard themselves as entitled to maim and kill everyone and anyone for any reason or no reason in the name of 'officer safety'. If a cop is near you, he is bored and wants to maim you for entertainment, preferably while you are handcuffed.
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Dan8267 says
I never forgot that movie, I was blessed to go to a great public school in NY where I first saw it. I shudder to think of how ignorant I would have been had I attended a typical Florida School (having attended one my Senior year only, 11th Grade NY = 6th Grade Florida. I read books in an AP English Class for HS Seniors in Florida that we read in "Regular" 6th Grade English, like the Great Gatsby).
AlexS says
Yep. Both parties support non-reciprocal free trade, expanded police powers, militarized police, etc. etc. They are enabled by an apathetic, ignorant public, which in turn is enabled by a wishy-washy media.
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APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says
Unfortunate, but VERY TRUE.
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From Doug Casey: "Yes. And cops are increasingly aggressive and paranoid in the US – it's not a good thing. We no longer see friendly "Andy Griffith" types who help lost kids get home. We see heavily armed and armored paramilitary thugs who see citizens as potential enemies. It's a fact that the term cops often use for civilians is "assholes." Cops increasingly suffer from an "us against them" mentality. Their first loyalty is to other cops, then to their employer, the government, and only then to those they're supposed to "serve and protect." It's laughable actually, the way they're portrayed in TV cop shows; good cops are becoming the exception, not the rule..."
http://lewrockwell.com/casey/casey130.html
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AlexS says
Whenever Apocalypse is the most rational guy in the room, the situation is all fucked up.
AlexS says
Which is why the only solution is to have a civilian "cop control" force that is authorized to use deadly force against the police when they threaten public safety.
Also, civilians should be able to prosecute cops in a court system that is independent of the criminal court system used against civilians. The judges cannot be trusted.
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How sad. I have a healthy fear of the police, rightfully so. The police state is the biggest threat to our collective freedom and our individual liberties. I never hear the gun fearing leftists calling for disarmament of the police state. Conversely, they always seem to want to give them more power.
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Dan8267 says
You disappoint me Dan, TenOuncer is no Conservative.
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Dan8267 says
The police had reasonable suspicion that a violent man who ran from police was in there. The soon to be dead guy has an unholstered gun. The officer had a reasonable fear that his life could be over in 2 seconds. The officer acted corectly.
Dan8267 says
This guy runs from police multiple times and "acts like a caged animal". He most likely had warrants and did not want to fulfill his legal obligation to present himself to the court to face charges.
In both cases short sighted actions contributed to their own death.
Both stories are extremely light on details and heavily biased against LEO's.
Without police, vigilante anarchy would rule the land. There would be no civilization.
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Loyalty to the professional clan over the profession? This is a very dangerous trend. In case of police, it's also a characteristic of third world countries.
Very disturbing, indeed.
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The judges cannot be trusted
Who is watching. The watchers?
Anytime someone forces you to subordinate to their supposed authority, you're all the way fucked.
Its rarely ever a race issue, relative to how justice in this country is always a money issue. That's why I say we needed an Affordable Lawcare Act, before we can ever address our collective health. One cannot be of good health in the body, if they are under constant duress of the mind and "soul". Literally. Elevated levels of cortisol, the bodys response to stress, causes chronic health issues. So long as law is merely a means of profiteering, this will only get worse. If you want to take the money out of politics, then socialize lawcare. What purpose does for profit law serve in a just society, anyways? So that we get the best law care, that money can buy? What happens to those of us that can't afford it? We end up in prison assembling government office furniture for .40 an hour so they can discard the perfectly good government office furniture that they paid 10x for last year. We end up forced to the door of those wrtched criminal defense attorneys to bankrupt our way free of persecution. The same attorneys that buy plates at the dinners of the judges and their politician friends. We end up on the wrong end of the night stick, shackled and thrown in a cage like an animal, left to rot
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CaptainShuddup says
He must have confused him with tenpoundass
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Family members told CBS News station KCBS-TV that Nida had jaywalked across a busy street to buy cigarettes as his wife bought gas. Nida was spotted by a Downey officer, who said he was acting suspiciously. The officer asked Nida to sit down.
"He got up and ran away," Dolson said.
Meh. Don't break the law and then run away when they catch you. he's not innocent, he just didn't deserve to get shot, but you take that risk when you run away from cops.
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Meh?
Whatever happened to the old adage, we' rather have ten guilty men walk free, then have one innocent man wrongly shot to death by a brutally militant police state?
Did you really just rationalize someone being gunned down by police, for jaywalking?
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Fact: One of the most popular items in police supplies stores is the OPERATION GHETTO STORM T-shirt. Typically, the illustration shows a burning city with attack helicopters hovering over it, firing down into the mayhem below.
This is cops' idea of what policing is all about these days - a license for genocide. Cops are so strung out on B movies and twisted academy training and direct influence of the military (they can get training and materiele from government programs) that they really believe they're at war.
Did you know there is a cop memorial in Washington, DC to 'honor the fallen heroes' that protect us on our mean streets. Oh, please, fuck me. Violent crime has been falling since 1973. The 20th Century was a tough time to be a cop. In the 60s and 70s, real trouble, uprisings, rioting, violent crime ascendant but, still, the academies taught policing as a governance mechanism managed by constitutional guarantees.
Now, it's all about Officer Safety, what one old cop I know refers to as fear-based policing. If I were prime minister, all of these assholes would be retired and replaced with youngsters grounded in constitutional law and required a day a week to coach the PAL teams, ride the garbage trucks and shake cans, take a parks system assignment planting trees, landscaping-etc and take a shift as a substitute teacher in the public schools or private schools in the district that would take them. Then I'd sell the cars, buy them sneakers and put them in the neighborhoods on foot with best of class radio and telemetry systems so officers could locate each other and swam on a location that really needed attention. They don't like taking the bus to work and walking, hey, let them find another job with full benefits and a 20-year vesting defined benefit pension.
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Dan8267 says
That Police Unions do everything in their power to prevent, circumvent, or destroy.
Another thing is that the Chiefs of Police just about everywhere are more and more the leader of the gang rather than the boss who enforces discipline or standards.
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APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says
Yep, They also sell Anti-Protester shirts. Cops HATE Protesters more than anything, no matter how non-violent they are. Protesting is silly, it's just an invitation for the Government to demonstrate they are capable of force.
Speaking of Protesters, don't you love the "Black Bloc" bullshit? I'm supposed to believe a bunch of "Anarchist" punk kids have the money to fly to every international conference ever held, and that none of them ever get stopped at the border. Yeah, right.
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I'll always remember career day in High School. There were two types of kids who went to the police table: The smelly, bully types, the kind that whack off while burning stray cats, and the tightass asskissing hallway monitor types, the ones that ratted you out for smoking, but did the same shit themselves when the teachers weren't around.
foxmannumber1 says
Yeah, it was an innocent homeowner seeing who is pounding on his door at 1:30AM. For safety, he took his firearm in case it was criminals. He's supposed to use his psychic powers like superman and see through the door and know it's cops and not a home invasion?
foxmannumber1 says
You neglected to mention that the cops neither handcuffed him nor searched him for weapons when he sat down as ordered the first time. Typical cop BS. They say they suspected weapons, but they never checked for a weapon when they stopped him. That's the excuse now after the cops in the incident talked with their union lawyer who is coaching them.
Also, why do our brave defenders insist on shooting every Chihuahua and Shih Tsu they come across in the line of duty?
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thunderlips11 says
The police are only human and just like the "victim", can't know who's on the other side of the door when they have reasonable suspicion that the violent criminal is inside. If this story is as simple as the biased article claims, which I doubt, it is unfortunate that anyone died.
thunderlips11 says
http://downeybeat.com/2012/08/ron-thomas-calls-for-downey-city-council-to-meet-with-family-of-michael-nida-93176/
The shooting is still under investigation. A rational unbiased person would wait for that to finish before making a judgement.
Police make the correct decision when dealing with criminals the vast majority of the time. On the other hand, criminals make the wrong decisions 100% of the time.
I believe that liberalism is a synonym for 'anarchy'. In a liberal fantasy land people can do whatever they want with no penalty. The only people who would be punished in this backwards world would be those who tell others not to do the morally wrong thing.
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foxmannumber1 says
Reasonable prudence sounds even better. Reasonable Suspicion is in the eye of the beholder. Knowing that it's possible you could be mistaken is reasonable. Not knowing how, if you're mistaken, how and when a homeowner will appear is also reasonable.
foxmannumber1 says
You mean Andrew Scott, 26, who was not the target of the search. They found the guy, named Brown, that they were looking for shortly after.
Why is "Victim" in quotes? You say:
foxmannumber1 says
Here's the article:
.
http://rt.com/usa/news/florida-man-police-kill-325/
But because police believe it's better not to announce themselves, because of stupid Drug War policy that came out of the No-Knock bullshit, it's better that an innocent man be killed, than a guilty man remain free for a few more hours.
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thunderlips11 says
The article is too simplistic. Upon hearing all the details and knowing what evidence the officers had at the time only can you then make a rational judgement. The officer has just as much right, if not more, to defend himself in that uncertain situation.
As I said before, it is unfortunate.
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foxmannumber1 says
Not simplistic at all. The cops had the decision how to go about investigating the building. They could have knocked and announced themselves. They could have taken out a loudspeaker and called for everyone in the building to come out unarmed.
Instead, they did not. The Cops had control over the situation and how to execute it: They instigated the building search. Police Policy post drug-war is not to knock, not to announce themselves, but treat every situation like this as raiding a Meth Lab filled with crazies. Problem is not every situation is like that.
Excuses don't matter, an innocent man is dead. The answer is: How to prevent it next time. The cops will say "Don't answer the door at 1 in the morning with a firearm when people are knocking but won't say who they are or, better yet, sheep assholes shouldn't carry firearms, leave it to us tactical experts to protect you. Leave your freedom and safety to us, trust us, we're from the government", but that's stupid, unrealistic, and dangerous.
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thunderlips11 says
Officer safety!
There are a few policing wonks who believe the ignition point for the free fire fight at the Davidian compound was dumb fucking ATM agents shooting the dogs which some of the Davidians thought was sniper fire aimed at them - not a nuts conclusion with the main house surrounded by guys dressed up GI Joe action outfits.
Apparently it's become SOP to just shoot all dogs on sight in the belief they could be used as weapons against police.
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Police make the correct decision when dealing with criminals the vast majority of thetime. On the other hand, criminals makethewrong decisions 100% of thetime.
I believe that liberalism is a synonym for 'anarchy'. In a liberal fantasy land people can do whatever they want with no penalty. The only people who would be punished in this backwards world would be those who tell others not to do the morally wrong thing.
---------------------------------------------------------
In a free world, people can do whatever they want with no penalty, so long as they are not inflicting harm upon someone else.
What world do you live in, where you claim to be free, yet need liberal lawyers to write laws and militant police state wingnuts armed to the teeth to enforce them at the end of a gun, to dictate to you what is right and what is wrong "morally" ?
If you come a knockin on my door at 130am, be warned I will be armed. Don't start no shit won't be no shit.
------------------------
The officer has just as much right, if not more,to defendhimself in that uncertain situation.
------------------------
What does this even mean? 'If not more'
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errc says
In an unnatural, racially heterogeneous society such as the United States. Before racial integration, the country was mostly white. Before racial integration, militant local law enforcement was not necessary.
Now that we have super majority black areas who are immume to all but the most serious prosecution, such tactics are necessary. In super majority white areas, such police are not necessary.
Racial integration leads to unnecessary conflict and distrust of supposedly equal neighbors and citizens. It is a false statement to claim blacks equal to whites.
I would venture to say that most current day "conservatives" would be "liberals" in a homogenous society. They see the wasteful spending with 0 positive results when it comes to blacks and just want it stopped. If the money was spent on whites it would be put to good use due to the natural ability of the white race. Instead, trillions have been squandered on "civil rights" to simply prevent the black american from rioting and destroying the cities that the white man built.
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I see. So you are content with sacrificing your own liberties, in order for the government to protect you from the black man.
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errc says
I'm not a leftist, but I am a liberal and I have called for more accountability of the police and disarmament of the police.
errc says
No, in my liberal fantasy there are no victimless crimes and those who enforce the law are require to obey it and are punished just like civilians when they do break it.
Also, there are limits to what can be done by law enforcement. For example, sexually assaulting people people is not acceptable regardless of what you call it (strip search, patdowns, body scans, etc.). If I can't do it to your 6-year-old daughter, you can't do it to mine or to me or to anyone else.
errc says
If Andrew Scott had killed any of the police, he would be charged with first degree murder. Every one of those police should get a life sentence under Florida's 10-20-Life law. This was the most heinous murder in Florida since that law was passed.
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Oh, and the fact that they lied afterwards about what happened, makes it an even bigger crime.
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Dan8267 says
Society would be better served by calling for more accountability of its citizens.
By dwelling so much on the police you are ignoring the real problem: crimes by normal citizens.
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foxmannumber1 says
When normal citizens form battalions of twenty or so people armed with assault rifles and wearing body armor and burst into people's houses and slaughter them, and then get away with it because no court would even think of letting them be prosecuted, then I'll agree with you.
The police are more dangerous than other criminals because they have the weapons, the armor, access to private data and conversations, and zero accountability in the court system. Not even Al Capone was as much of a danger to society as the police today.
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Dan8267 says
It is not the intent of the police to fight fair. The police are to overpower the criminals so much that they can't possibly fight back. This serves the greater good and is in the best interests of the majority, the law abiding citizens. Once society starts catering to negative minorities it collapses.
Very few serve serious prison time for anything except class A felonies. The criminal elements get far too many chances at leading a normal life in my opinion. They *always* commit more crimes. We could eliminate these law breakers from our society but it would have a disparate impact on blacks, therefore it is politically unacceptable.
Normal people commit far more crimes than police. Your comparison is wrong.
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foxmannumber1 says
Which is exactly why they must be held accountable when they do kill innocents.
This is also exactly why the police should never be allowed to set foot on a private residence unless there is an immediate threat to live. And if they claim there is when there is not, they must be severely punished.
Only when mistakenly killing an innocent costs the police their own lives will the police take care not to mistakenly kill innocents. There has to be an incentive not to commit murder or other crimes, because obviously ethics isn't restraining police behavior.
The state should not be allowed to issue warrants for anything other than arresting violent criminals who have threatened lives via murder, rape, assault, or attempts at those things. The state should not be allowed to send police into private residencies for anything else. The negative consequences outweigh the benefits.
foxmannumber1 says
As a liberal, I don't believe in the concept of a victimless crime. So I don't count the bullshit fake crimes of smoking pot and disorderly conduct. I wouldn't call wearing a cross a crime even if the state made it one. So why should I do the same for the drug war?
Furthermore, I stated
Dan8267 says
This is different from counting crimes. This is totaling the damage done by the criminals, cops or civilians. And the fact is, today more harm is done by cops than civilians because cops have more opportunity and less accountability.
Certainly by per capita, cops commit more real crimes than civilians. But worse than that, the effects of crimes done by cops is far worse because those crimes are sanctioned and legitimized by the state. That makes them exponentially worse than anything a civilian could do.
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errc says
Two cops were recently gunned down in Louisiana. It's a dangerous world out there and you now have cops with itchy trigger fingers. Don't break the law, and when you do, don't run away from them. It's as simple as that. Don't give them a reason to pull out their guns.