It's so obvious, it's not obvious.


By rooemoore   Follow   Mon, 10 Sep 2012, 11:08am   1,515 views   10 comments
In Los Angeles CA 90001   Watch (0)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  


De-industrialization’s been going on for 50 years, the decline of organized labor’s been going on for 40 years, globalization: 20-25 years, and you’re gonna sit there and argue over this month’s employment report? The fact that we can’t have an adult electoral process is rooted in this kind of frenzy of who can we blame, and how fast.
[...] That business of four years being the metric for anything? We have a political culture that everyone plants annuals, they plant pretty flowers that come up the next spring. What we need is a political culture where somebody plants a fuckin’ olive tree, which doesn’t even give you an olive for seven years. That’s how you fix an economy…When that olive tree becomes an orchard.

~David Simon, creator of the Wire on Real Time with Bill Maher

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  1. bob2356


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    1   4:08am Wed 12 Sep 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Ruki says

    So, why do you post obvious bullshit (even if quoted by others) that we are 'de-industrializing' when we aren't? Are you Iwog's alternet Pat-net account?

    Interesting that Ruki won't accept government numbers unless they support him. The Dept of Commerce BEA numbers are just fiction. Private economists estimate manufacturing has declined at least 10-12% in 2000 to 2010. For example BEA says manufacturing productivity increased 72% for the decade. Yet manufacturing stock spending (factories and machines) increased less then 2% for the decade vs the historical norm of 20-50% per decade. So how did manufacturers get all this increased productivity without retooling? Impossible. There are other equally big holes in the BEA data. Maybe it's not so obvious bullshit at least since 2000.

  2. curious2


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    2   1:16pm Wed 12 Sep 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    bob2356 says

    So how did manufacturers get all this increased productivity without retooling?

    Outsourcing and illegal immigration. (Ruki mentioned robots, but those would show up as part of the capital costs, i.e. retooling.) If your factory outsources a lot of work to a sweatshop full of illegal immigrants, your factory's official productivity increases because those people aren't officially here. Likewise it's amazing how "productive" today's roofer can be compared to a generation ago, and by some curious optical illusion he seems to cast several shadows on the roof. One guy can do the work of five, and even casts five shadows on the roof, but there's only one guy, really officer, only one, officially.

  3. CaptainShuddup


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    3   1:42pm Wed 12 Sep 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (3)  

    Someone said something that sounded smart on Real Time did they?

    I say poppycock!

    Proof that it doesn't take 7 years, has happened once a year for the last 4 under Obama. Every time Oil declines for three straight months we get green shoots. But then the speculators squash it immediately

    Obama doesn't want growth to happen through classic economics.
    It would pull the wool off his grand scheme to Socialize America.
    What the fuck would I need Food stamps for, if I have good job, and can afford to drive to work?

  4. marcus


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    4   2:08pm Wed 12 Sep 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    CaptainShuddup says

    Obama doesn't want growth to happen through classic economics.

    So when an efficient market lowers the price of oil because of a perceived decrease in demand, that's classic economics, but when that same market takes the price up on a perception of increasing demand, it's all about the evil speculators, and Obama's socialist experiment?

    What the hell man ?! Are you too old to learn any new lies ?

  5. marcus


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    5   2:16pm Wed 12 Sep 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    CaptainShuddup says

    Proof that it doesn't take 7 years

    So if inflating the mother of all credit bubbles took nearly 30 years, we should magically recover in just a few years ?

    All the other recoveries were led by real estate. Now we have the lowest mortgage rates ever, and yet RE can't even come close to getting back to where it was in 2007.

    Do you even begin to understand that this is totally unprecedented ?

    --->We've got a quarter of mortgages under water.

    --->Cost of living up in the past dozen years

    --->Incomes down for the past dozen years.

    --->Baby boomers (the biggest population cohort) all in a super austere mode, saving for retirement (if they're even well employed), or to help pay for their kid's college.

    and the list goes on...

    How is it, in an economy that has been hyper dependent on domestic consumption, that we are supposed to have any kind of rapid economic recovery ?

  6. rooemoore


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    6   2:28pm Wed 12 Sep 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    CaptainShuddup says

    Someone said something that sounded smart on Real Time did they?

    I say poppycock!

    I figured you were a geezer, but, holy shit, "poppycock"?

    So you blame Obama for your failures to get work? Here's an idea, why not take some personal responsibility instead of whining about not getting any good paying gigs. (I bet it's those young whippersnappers, with all their social media and low rates!).
    And instead of wasting your time here (not earning $$$ which you obviously need) go to school:

    http://www.codecademy.com/
    http://www.codeschool.com/
    http://www.udacity.com/

  7. rooemoore


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    7   3:39pm Wed 12 Sep 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Ruki says

    Topic. Let's all stay on topic please. I don't care what you say but only it is about the topic -- this bullshit claim that the US has been 'de-industrializing' despite the hard fact that manufacturing output is higher than ever.

    That is not the "topic". The topic is that we get caught in the short term fixes that often do nothing and sometimes harm the long term good.

    The quote I posted was off the cuff from a talk show - cut the guy some slack. Simon isn't referring to industrialization the same way you are. He is referring the seismic shift in industrial jobs, where they are located, what they pay and what they produce.

    Also, as I'm sure you will agree, technology plays into this dramatic change. A car plant opening today with 5000 employees can produce what would have taken 25000 in the 70s.

    So, again the point of the thread is that we are always caught up in the short term solutions. The road to recovery for this economy is a LONG ROAD. If you want to argue that we are on the wrong path under Obama, that's fine. Just don't point to weak jobs numbers, for instance, and say that this is PROOF we are on the wrong course.

    Simon was saying that this logic (are you better off...) is bullshit whether Obama or McCain was in the WH right now. I agree.

    The fact that you turn this into a stupid gotcha argument is probably the reason you might be banned.

  8. marcus


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    8   4:25pm Wed 12 Sep 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    rooemoore says

    again the point of the thread is that we are always caught up in the short term solutions. The road to recovery for this economy is a LONG ROAD. If you want to argue that we are on the wrong path under Obama, that's fine.

    Exactly.

    But Shrek is always operating from an argumentative point of view. The underlying premise behind everything he says is, " how do I paint Obama to be the bad guy in this ?"

  9. Honest Abe


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    9   4:52pm Wed 12 Sep 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)  

    OK, we are on the wrong path under obama. He failed to honor his own campaign promises and has continued many of
    Bush's failed policies.

    Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

    "We won't be fooled again" that would be a great slogan for disenfranchised voters of every stripe.

  10. rooemoore


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    10   5:20pm Wed 12 Sep 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    robertoaribas says

    But, he didn't do as well as hoped, so we should get rid of him, and hire a jackass who SAID He wouldn't bother to go after Bin Laden, to let GM go under, and wants to give tax breaks to the rich and screw the middle class, education, etc....

    Don't forget Romney has said time and time again "no military cuts". In fact he wants to increase the defense budget.

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