This explains everything!
By Patrick Follow Tue, 2 Oct 2012, 3:50pm 3,760 views 81 comments
In Menlo Park CA 94025
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Bap33 says
Why? He didn't preach hate.
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Raw says
truth hurts
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lostand confused says
you equate a demand of proper behavior with "hate". Jesus sure did demand proper behavior amd persoanl accountability. Have you never read the Law from Jesus' time? It may suprise you. Jesus did not accept DEVIANT behavior. When the whore was saved from being stoned, what EXACTLY did Jesus COMMAND her to do? It is really important for you, since you are grasping for the sodomite salvation, to understand what Jesus' message was for mankind. I promise you, there will be ex-sodomites in Heaven, and ex-preachers in Hell. You read it here first!! lol
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Bap33 says
Will there be ex shellfish eaters too?? Who died and made you God to determine one sin is greater than the other? The law of his time? LOL that is the problem with the Islamists-they have the mindset of the times gone by and are refusing to enter the modern times. That is my fear of the fundamentalist /born again folks-they seem determined to drag us back to the old ages.
Like this guy,a doctor, tea party member, republican and most scary- member of the Committee on Science, Space and Technology of the House of Representatives. He accepts the earth was created in 6 days and only a few thousand years ago. This is scary, because Akin is also a member of the same committe and his views are known. In Islamic nations, religious figures have control over all aspects of life and here people like these and you wish to impose rules based on moral beliefs. Perhaps you should become friends with the Islamists?
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/10/05/house-science-member-says-earth-is-9000-years-old/
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your response is too hard to connect to the subject matter. I lack the skill to tie it all together to the topic.
I didn't place any sin above any other, since I know all sin is sin. Do you agree?
Did you read the Law that Hebrews and Jesus lived under?
Did you read what Jesus told the whore?
Why do you hate God? What are you so angry about and afraid of?
And why does the topic drop off so fast when truth is shared? Anyone?
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Bap33 says
Truth-you mean your truth is the only truth??
Is this some standard cliche argument that is used when you can't answer questions? I do believe in a God-my view is that I am like an ant that is here for a short while and then poof gone. I don't claim to understand everything and MOST DEFINITELY do not claim to know the truth. But what I disdain is people who read some books bordering on fairytales and insist that that is the truth . Now do it in the privacy of your home-fine. But try and make the rest of us live by your imaginary truth-no. That is not what this country is about.
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Bap33 says
Why check up on Mohammad followers? Do you follow Jesus or Mohammad?
You just can't answer the question.
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Well, I guess I'm going to have to break this down into four posts... I really though I wrote far longer posts, but maybe those were all in the initial discussions.
Raw says
It's not that I refuse to "confront the fact that Islam is a threat to our freedoms". It's that I don't agree with you that Islam is the greatest threat to our freedoms, not by a long shot. Sure, Islam is currently more violent than Christianity. It wasn't always that way and it won't always necessarily be true either. However, I'm not worry about the Islamic states invading our country and overthrowing our government. Violence from outside forces is not the greatest threat to our freedom, or even a plausible threat to our freedom.
You, of course, are free to make an argument that shows otherwise. If I find that it is a sound argument, I will gladly change my assessment of the situation and agree with you. However, you have yet to make any such argument. Feel free to do so. I'll gladly agree that Islam is the greatest threat to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness if you can prove it, but you have to prove it. I'm not going to take that position on faith, pun intended.
As to which family of religions is the greater threat, Islam or Christianity, the answer depends on where you live. Obviously Islam is the greater threat in the Middle East, but equally obvious is that Christianity is the greater threat in America. Our laws, our educational system, our criminal judges, our family court judges aren't controlled by Islamic interests, but rather Christian ones. If the reverse were true, and it may the hell be in another 30 years, then I'd agree completely that Islam is the greater threat in America. But it's not right now and it hasn't been for the past 100 years.
Again, you are free to make a counter-argument, but you're going to have to demonstrate that Islam is the greater threat in America. You have to show me how Islam is harming our freedoms in America right now or will be in the near future, you have to back those claims up with evidence, and you have to weigh the present and future influence of Islam against the past, present, and future influence of Christianity. In other words, you have to show your work.
Perhaps our disagreement is due to you perceiving physical violence as the greatest threat to our freedoms whereas I perceive government corruption and takeover as the greatest threat to our freedoms. We could debate which is worse, but I must warn you, more people have died by the hands of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao each than have been killed by all the criminals and all the terrorists in all of human history put together. I'll take chaos over structured evil any day.
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Bap33 says
You are missing the point. The point I made was not that Islamic societies in the Middle East were nonviolent. The point was that the Bible, not the Koran, is responsible for more bad laws in America. Can you name a single law in the United States that was written because of the Koran? There are thousands of laws written in our country because of the Bible and most are bad and arbitrary. The few that aren't would have been created without the Bible. That was my point.
Shifting the conversation from that point to which religious fanatics are more violent is a red herring. Obviously Muslims are statistically more violent today than Christians. This is because rationalists like myself have gotten the Christians mostly under control, although they still do evil in more sneaky ways like taking over school boards, the Boy Scouts, and legislative and judicial bodies. And since I live in America, Christianity is a far greater threats to my rights and freedoms than Islam, at least for now. Again, this might change in 30 years if Islam continues to grow as fast as it has. But that's just more reason to fortify the wall between church and state, something that Christian groups in our country are always trying to tear down.
So, how do we prevent religion including Islam from taking over our government? Well, we remove the word "god" from both the Democratic and Republican platforms. When idiots like Fox News attack the Democrats for dropping "god" from their platform, it opens the door for Islam to take over our government in the future.
Fucking Democratic pussy leaders pretended to take a vote and ignore the vote when it doesn't go their way. The decision, as shown on The Daily Show, was made before the vote and the speaker blatantly and obviously lied about the vote tally. But why do they do this, because god-damn Republicans use religion as a wedge issue and that is exactly why Christianity is a far greater threat to our freedoms and rights than Islam.
Bap33 says
Just because the KKK ain't popular anymore and the South was to disavow its existence, doesn't make the KKK any less Christian, in particular protestant. The KKK not only violently terrorized blacks, but they did the same to Jews and Catholics who didn't share their particular religion.
The KKK was a white, Christian terrorist group. No amount of whitewashing can change that history. And the KKK, unlike Islamic terrorist groups, have had a much greater affect on America's history and politics and that's including 9/11. The draconian laws passed after 9/11 were written well beforehand and just lied waiting for an opportunity to be passed. If it hadn't been for the KKK, race issues may have been resolved a hundred years ago.
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Bap33 says
1. The Koran and the Bible both have horrific statements. The only difference is degree, and if you include the Old Testament, it's not much of a degree. Do you want me to quote all the really evil things the Bible supports? Please say yes, I love doing that.
2. The "god" you talk about is the same fictional entity worshiped by all three major families of religion: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It's the same damn god, the same damn character. The differences are in the particular authors. It's like three Star Trek books written by different authors but all about the same character, James T. Kirk.
3. The most important thing is that all three are lies and whenever you base power and control of people on superstitious lies, you get evil results. Power corrupts and power obtain by lies corrupts most quickly and severely.
4. I oppose religion and superstition in itself. The arbitrary details of the lies don't matter. What matters is that it's all lies.
Bap33 says
Oh, that's much less gay.
Raw says
Terrorism is a tactic, not a philosophy. One person's evil terrorist is another person's heroic hero. Would you call the IRA a terrorist group or freedom fighters? Depends on which side of the conflict you are on. During World War II the Nazis considered the French Resistance to be terrorists, and their claim is as valid as the British calling the IRA terrorists. Unlike the KKK, the IRA's goals were not clearly evil and can arguable be seen as honorable from a certain point of view.
Raw says
I would argue that the solution is to increase the role of rationality and the scientific education level of the masses. The fact is that the more scientifically literate and rational a person is, the less likely they are to be religious or persuaded by clergy. Science answers the questions religion cannot. There is always more to learn, but science, not religion, bridges the gap between the known and the unknown.
Of course, Islam today is very anti-science even more so than Christianity. But a few hundred years ago, the reverse was true. Islamic societies diverted from the path of rationality. If that could happen to Islamic religions and nations, then it certainly could also happen to Christian ones again. Tyson explains in this excellent video recently posted on other threads.
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Bap33 says
Dude, sometimes I get busy and don't read replies for a day or two. I actually do things outside of Patrick.net, you know. But I am responding just as soon as I've read the new posts.
If ever someone does make a good counter-argument, I won't be silent. I'll flip-flop like John Kerry at the International House of Pancakes. I have no problem completely changing my philosophies should new information reveal better ones. I consider that winning by adopting a better position. It's like trading a Honda for a Ferrari. It's just that no one has ever proposed a better philosophy than the ones I already have, which isn't surprising when you consider that I attack my own ideas far more rigorously than I attack other people's ideas.
Bap33 says
God sounds like an asshole. He puts a loophole in his promise so he can perform a hideous and evil act, torturing people to death with fire. Fuck, god's an asshole. He's worse than a divorce lawyer. I hope no one is looking to him for moral guidance.
Bap33 says
The biggest thing I've noticed about all religions is that the god of the religion always has the exact same moral beliefs as the person speaking. Of course, every believer disagrees with the other believers' moral codes, but somehow, every believer just knows that the god's moral code is exactly the same as his own.
No one ever says, well, I personally think that drowning puppies was evil, but I must be wrong because god thinks it's moral. Nor does anyone say, I don't like sucking other guy's cocks, but Jesus wants me to and I'll do anything for Jesus. Somehow, Jesus always has the exact same opinions about everything as the believer. The pacifist commie Jesus is even pro-gun and pro-war, but anti-socialism.
I challenge any of the faithful to list important differences of opinion on grave moral issues between themselves and Jesus. This challenge goes out to both the left and the right. And to be fair, I'll start. Jesus was pro-slavery. I'm anti-slavery. OK, now someone else name another issue.
Oh, and before the Christians try to argue that Jesus wasn't pro-slavery, remember that the Bible is the unerring word of god. To argue that the New Testament makes mistakes about Christ's teachings would put the whole damn book in question, and we can't have that.
Furthermore, slavery was the greatest evil of Jesus's age and he did not even raise a word against it. Perhaps the easiest moral question is whether or not slavery should be tolerated. For Jesus Christ and both testaments to get this easy moral question wrong completely discredits the religions of Christianity and the Bible as moral authorities. But why should this be surprising. We don't look at the modern Middle East for moral guidance and the Bronze Age and the Iron Age Middle East was no better. Christianity was a product of its time and its time was morally inferior to today.
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lostand confused says
no, no, I meant the truth about the differences between the followers of Jesus' Word, and the followers of mohmad's word. Sorry for not being clear. That was the topic, I thought.
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Dan8267 says
no, it was not, unless you have no idea what the definition of a "Christian Group" is. Since we both know you do understand what it takes for a person or group to be called "Chriatian", you should just stop and admit you over-stated your case on this point. The KKK was/is a bad idea.
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Dan8267 says
the same promise of eternal life comes from the same God. eternal Life sounds better than most promises. But, I don't fully grasp "eternal" anything, any better than anyone esle does. lol
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Dan8267 says
That was for the guys trying to equate the action of islam vs Christ. The fact's were shared and they fell silent. As you know, Jesus' suggestions were all about getting your own house in order, where as mohmad suggests you kill everyone that was not born into your family/creed/faith/religion. Not even close to the same.
by the way, you cant change the arguement to fit your needs. All big-three relgions of God have the same O.T. stories, for the most part. The Hebrew's have no N.T. and use the original old books, the Chritians have the Jesus N.T. that are kind of a bio for Him and his posse, and the arab/semite islamuslamites have the words of mohmad that show the hate and jealousy the arab-semites have for the Hebrews (because the Hebrews really are God's chosen people, and the arab/semites are pissed because they want what Abraham could not give them.) Their unique book came about as a result of mohmad trying to get a "me too" with his fantasy flight over mecca. Right? Maybe?
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Thomas Monson prepares to reap the benefits of the Romney campaign:
reducing minimum age for missionaries will "increase the missionary force"
Romney's cult "brings in some $7 billion annually in tithes and other donations. It owns about $35 billion worth of temples and meeting houses around the world, and controls farms, ranches, shopping malls and other commercial ventures worth many billions more."
It's remarkable how much money and power an organization can amass when it doesn't need to pay taxes.
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Bap33 says
Whether or not the KKK was a bad idea is irrelevant. It most certainly is a Christian organization. It is the very definition of WASP, White Anglo Saxon Protestant. But don't take my word for it.
Straight from the KKK website KKK.com -- I would have gone with a .org domain, just saying.
And after you've gotten one of those nifty T-Shirts, watch this video.
Look, I'm not saying that the Klan runs all Christian religions, but it most certainly is a deeply Christian organization.
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Dan8267 says
Dan, you are being obtuse, and that is not like you. The KKK can claim to be Christian, dogfood, or toast. They can claim anything they want. But, their group activity does not measure up to Christ's message. You know it. You can claim to be a doctor or a pillot or an anvil. Unless you remain stationary and get smacked by a hammer that is pounding steel, you have trouble being called an anvil by others. That is how Chritianity works. You are supposed to say and do things that will allow the arab islamuslmists to convict you of being a Christian. Nothing about the KKK would see a member be convicted of Christianity.
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Bap33 says
You seriously don't think anyone gets killed in the Bible? Have you ever opened it up and looked at it? You can cherry-pick all you like, but Jesus and Mohammed basically preach the same message. I just don't know any Christians OR Muslims who even know what the message is, let alone follow it.
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Homeboy says
is that what I said? I read pretty bad, and I write even worse, so please re-read my post and then read your answer and see if there is a chance you missed something.
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Bap33 says
Nor does any Christian religion. I've been trying for months to get you to understand that the core Christian message goes against all your political and cultural beliefs. You haven't been listening.
1. You hate socialism and redistribution of wealth. Early Christianity, as founded by Christ and his followers, was all about socialism and redistributing wealth. Jesus Christ was the mother of all communists and he makes Obama look like Gordon Gecko.
2. You love guns. Jesus never carried a weapon, said turn the other cheek and do good to those who hurt you. The Christian message is that it is never okay to raise a finger against another person even if that person is trying to kill you. You must accept death, the death of your entire family, and be happy that it's God's will that you die and you'll be rewarded in heaven for not responding to violence with violence.
3. You wanted to see America get back at Osama bin Laden for the 9/11 attacks. The entire freaking story of Christianity is about unconditional forgiveness. The whole point of Jesus dying on the cross was forgiveness. If you actually ascribed to Christ's values, you would not want bin Laden to have died or been capture. You would have forgiven bin Laden and embraced him as a brother.
4. If you had even remotely similar values to what the Bible purports Jesus possessed, you would not support the Romney/Ryan ticket or the entire economic platform of the Republican Party. It goes against everything Jesus says people should do including, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." That's Mathew 19:21. Look it up. Jesus would have been in Occupy Wall Street, not the Tea Party.
Nevertheless, stupid is as stupid does. That means, it doesn't matter what the religious followers say their principles are. What matters is how the religious actually live their lives. What people do is far more revealing about their true values than what they say.
You have no problem calling Islam a religion of violence. After all, despite some peaceful verses in the Koran, the millions of rioting and violent Muslims says more about the Islamic religions than the Koran. Well, the same goes for Christianity. Ultimately, it doesn't mean jack diddley shit what's in the Bible. All that matters is how Christians actually behave.
Now you want to divorce your family of religions from the KKK because that organization's evil has been so well documented, that it cannot be redeemed. But that simply is a No True Scotsman argument. If the KKK makes Christians look bad, then no member of the KKK can be considered a Christian. This is a logical fallacy and it's not hard to show why. Just click on the previous link.
Did you even watch the video I linked to that showed the Bible camps and the religious origins of the KKK? Watch it and then read this history of the KKK. It turns out that the Klan was an alliance of Baptists, Presbyterians, and Methodists ministers and disciples opposing Catholics, Jews, Blacks, and immigrants. Last time I checked Baptistdom, Presbyterianism, and Methodistism were Christian religions.
The KKK is ugly, but it is Christian. No amount of white-washing history is going to change that or the fact that the South was morally wrong to practice slavery and fight a war to continue doing so.
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Homeboy says
nope, not even close. Wrong as wrong can possibly be. You have no idea what either has said, obviously.
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Dan8267 says
no, it isn't. Telling the same lie over and over is effective, but does not make your lie the truth.
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By the way, some Muslims use the No True Scotsman argument to say that Islam is a religion of peace. They choose to ignore the multitudes of Muslims seething with violent hatred in the exact same way that Bap is trying to ignore the KKK being a Christian organization.
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Dan8267 says
so, because the men who made the mistakes had been invloved in organized religion, you make the leap of faith to say you know them to be Christian?? I admire your faith, but you are wrong, as were they.
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Dan8267 says
lol ... weak, for you. simply weak.
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1 through 4 are aimed at me, for some reason, and I am guilty of most of the things you say I am. Not sure how that helped you, but there ya go.
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Homeboy says
honesty is not your strong suit, is it?
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Bap33 says
First of all Bap, a lie is intentionally and knowingly presenting a falsehood as true. I honestly believe everything I have said. Do you really think I'm intentionally deceiving you? To do so would go against every philosophy of rationalism and transparency and objectivity that I have presented on this site.
Second, if you think I am factually incorrect, then present counter-evidence. I have presented ample evidence to prove a fact that quite frankly is obvious. You have offered absolutely no counter-evidence.
The KKK has freaking Bible camps and are lead by Baptist ministers. How the hell are they not a Christian organization? The members of the KKK, when they aren't donning their robes and burning crosses on people's lawns, go to Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian churches every week and commonly even more often. If that doesn't mean their Christian, then what are they? Jews? Muslims? Buddhists?
Again, have you even watched the video? Here, I'll post it again. Watch it and listen to the actual Klansman words.
Christ, they even got a pancake breakfast. You can't get any more fucking Christian than that! No other religion holds pancake breakfasts.
Hell, if the KKK didn't hate Catholics so much, the pope would probably be a grand wizard or high dragon or whatever.
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Dan8267 says
you are factually incorrect by this: You are allowing a group/person to CLAIM what they are, without demanding any proof or holding them to any standard. You do not allow this in any other area. You are very analytical in every other area, but in this area you are INTENTIONALLY setting aside your own standards, just to gain shape on your intended target - Christianity. You are therefore guilty of a falsehood.
Selfproclaimation does not equate to proof of intent or membership. And you know it. So, you are a being a liar about this issue.
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Bap33 says
Dude, the documentary I've posted twice now on this thread wasn't written by the KKK. Furthermore, I've documented that Baptist ministers have lead the KKK throughout its history up to and including the current leader. That's not relying on an organization's self-identification.
I am setting aside no standards of proof and have provided ample evidence. You, on the other hand, have presented nothing to support your statement that the KKK is anything but a Christian organization. So I'm calling bullshit on your accusations.
Tell me, how exactly has all the evidence I provided not satisfied you and what evidence would it take for you to accept that the KKK is composed of church going Christians and led by Christian clergy?
There's skepticism and then there's the bubble.
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Dan8267 says
See any Catholics in their ranks ?
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Dan8267 says
does the KKK promote hate? If they do, then they are not Christian.
does the KKK promote murder? If they do, then they are not Christian.
So, unless the KKK has changed their mission statement, and their activity, then they remain outside of the acceptable behavior that is required of a Christian group.
For example, the Hells Angles do a toy run for kids. That is a very Christian thing to do, but the group is not a Christain group. They do not "promote" the following of Christ. KKK does not promote the following of Christ. Your beginning to bore me. You are normally much better at this stuff. Off day?
the video is not "evidence" of KKK being a Christian group. How silly you can be at times! lol
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Dan8267 says
you are WRONGLY assuming that:
1) Ministers can't be sinners and do bad things
2) Baptists cant be sinners and do bad things
The instant that these INDIVIDUALS began to promote actions that were not in line with the teaching of Christ, they stop being Christians, as would any group or vehicle they employ.
you make a good liar, it turns out. And I am suprized, honestly.
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Bap33 says
So then, by your analysis, none of the Christian churches from 300 A.D. to at least 1800 were Christians. There were no Christians during this one and a half millennial.
Thank you for illustrating the No True Scotsman fallacy more simply than anyone could imagine.
I guess now I can claim that Stalin was no true atheist because no true atheist would ever commit murder.
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Bap33 says
I would never make either of those assumptions. I might make the assumption that those two groups do nothing but bad things...
Bap33 says
The worst kind of liar is one who repeatedly calls an honest person a liar. I've disagreed with you in the past. I've even called you bat-shit crazy. But I never called you dishonest, until now. Even you cannot possibly be so moronic as to think that I am stating things I know to be untrue. Therefore, logic dictates that you are simply being a deceptive hypocrite, and that truly does lower what little respect I had for you. I can no longer say, "Bap may be crazy, but at least he's sincere in his crazy beliefs.".
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Dan8267 says
only if you list the qualities and actions that would convict a person of being an atheist. Since I asked you for that a long while ago and you scoffed, I doubt it's coming soon.
Bap33 says
The whole exchange shows the qualifications, and you left out the detail in your response on pupose. Your grasping at starws now dude, so unlike you. Really.
Like I said, and meant, I never figured you to need to resort to bullshit, just to carry one of your anti-God views to the last degree. You're starting to embarass yourself now. I wonder why you grasp this empty arguement so firmly? What hinges on your position? hmmm.
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Bap33 says
What a childish attempt to goat. How about we put this to a vote? Anyone who thinks that the KKK is made up of Christians post "Agree with Dan". Anyone who thinks that the KKK's members are not Christians post "Agree with Bap".
Then again, why am I even arguing with Bap on the membership of the KKK? He's probably a fifth generation card-carrying member.
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The problem in my view is that too many are in religion to make a buck. It's the greed of $$$$$ not faith. That is always the problem behind the problem.