Christianity would die without Islam.


By Greatest I am   Follow   Mon, 15 Oct 2012, 2:26pm   2,922 views   35 comments
Watch (1)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

Christianity would die without Islam.

Belief is a psychological and imposed condition. Mutual fear and The Nobel Lie is sustaining both Islam and Christianity by governments. They are using religion and the religious as patsies.

The Lie is necessary, Plato argues, in order to keep a stable social structure. In Plato’s mind, The Noble Lie is a religious lie that’s fed to the masses to keep them under control and happy with their situation in life.

Plato did not believe most people were smart enough to look after their own and society’s best interest. The few smart people of the world needed to lead the rest of the flock, Plato said. And The Noble Lie had to continue.

I have been puzzled for some time now as to why the West embraces a pathological and genocidal God who shows almost all works and deeds of hate instead of love.

If I understand why the West chose the Christian God of war correctly, that choice was made and is sustained by the pressures of war brought against it by Islam. The Islamic dogma of kill the infidels show other religions that that God is just as pathological and intolerant as the Christian God with his, believe in me or end in hell policy. The West fought fire with fire. A holy pissing contest based on the Noble Lie on both sides.

Rome, now the West, would have had to have a different God than what their Eastern counterparts had. Rome was created as a defensive response to invasions from the Khans and tribes of the Fertile Crescent, Islam. As the Asian tribes relented in their expansion, the main enemy of the West became and is now Islam.

Constantine chose Christianity. First, as a ploy to win in battle and maintained it later, even as he was not a Christian at heart, for his own self-aggrandizement as his plan, according to archeology, was to usurp Jesus as the new King/God.

From there, Rome pushed northward and promoted the Christian God of war on his ability to win battles. The West of today was born.

&feature=related

Unfortunately, morality was never the draw for this Christian God. Only his barbarism that was used against all other Gods and most notably Islam’s.

The fear of Islam then is what is still the driving force that explains the West embracing the pathological and genocidal God of Christianity. It was all just the one-upmanship of killing power.

Vatican II tried for rapprochement with Islam and today, progressive Christianity is trying to offer an olive branch to Islam.

Are the right wings of Christianity and Islam ready to bury the hatchet of war and competition and have their Gods kiss and make up or will the demographics of Muslim peoples force the remainder of this century to be one of conflict?
Will both religions have what it takes to return to the older thinking that there is only one nameless God for all, or will we continue to fight for what is basically a name for God that all books of wisdom say we should not name?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/10/04/identity-that-sends-us-toward-the-other-with-love/

Should both Christianity and Islam revert and follow their religious root, Judaism, and recognize that their man created versions of their Gods are evil and reject them as unfit to rule any peaceful loving egalitarian nation?

Regards
DL

Viewing Comments 1-35 of 35     Last »     See most liked comments

  1. thunderlips11


    Follow
    Befriend (13)
    282 threads
    5,420 comments

    1   8:51am Tue 16 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Greatest I am says

    Rome, now the West, would have had to have a different God than what their Eastern counterparts had. Rome was created as a defensive response to invasions from the Khans and tribes of the Fertile Crescent, Islam. As the Asian tribes relented in their expansion, the main enemy of the West became and is now Islam.

    Huh? The Mongol invasions appeared long, long after the end of the Roman Empire and the adoption of Christianity. Rome pushing northward? The peak of the Empire was about 100AD. After that, it was on the wane. This was before hardly anybody even knew who Christ was.

    The Golden Horde, the Westernmost branch of the Mongolian Invasions, appeared in Russia around 1200. The Western Roman Empire was dead by 500, 600 years before that. Charlemagne and Charles Martel were centuries gone before the Mongolians stirred along the Don.

    Christianity was adopted before the Huns attacked Europe, too (c. mid 400s). Constantine's adoption of Christianity, the whole thing with the Chi-Rho, is probably more of Eusebius' (his chronicler) lies. We know that Constantine first was a Sol Invictus worshiper, and did not convert himself until his deathbed even according to his most fanatical Christian apologists. He may have made friends with Christianity simply to create another powerbase for himself to fend off any other challengers to his Title.

    I have other posts describing Hellenization of Eastern Med religions (Mithraism, Atis, Serapis, etc.); the last to be Hellenized was Judaism, which resulted in Christianity, IMHO.

    The Khans and the Huns weren't stopped by Christianity, but the fact that densely wooded Europe could not support large numbers of nomadic horse tribes for more than a few months at a time. That's why the Golden Horde never got further than Poland. It's also why the center of Power in Russia shifted from Konugard - Kiev - on the plains, to Moscow and Novogorod in the heavily wooded North.

    As for Muslims vs. Rome; the Eastern Roman Empires #1 foe was the Persians, who were Zorasterians.
    In the 600s, the Byzantines (eastern Roman Empire) and Persians fought themselves to basically a bloody stalemate. The WW1 of it's day. Because BOTH the Byzantines and Persians were weakened by their wars, it created a vacuum filled by a dude named Mohammed who led the Arab tribes (who were at the peak of a population boom) to seize the many poorly defended outposts of both Persia and Byzantium.
    The high taxes, religious disagreements with Constantinople and Rome (many Easterners were closet non-trinitarians), etc. created fertile ground for the Arab-Muslim invasions and the spread of Islam.

  2. Greatest I am


    Follow
    Befriend
    42 threads
    209 comments

    2   6:50am Thu 18 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    No argument with your history. That does not take away from the fact that it was pressure from Eastern forces generally speaking that forced a coalition and expansion of Christianity.

    I do admit that I am loose with the term East only because I do not have the information as yet on who was preparing to move West at year 0 to 200 ce or so.

    Have you written anything on this period?
    If so, please link me up.

    If you are a history buff you will like this.

    &feature=autoplay&list=PLCBF574D134B912A5&playnext=1

    Regards
    DL

  3. thunderlips11


    Follow
    Befriend (13)
    282 threads
    5,420 comments

    3   7:22am Thu 18 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Greatest, interesting link.

    I put some stuff up a while ago about "Hellenizing" some of the Eastern Med Religions under the Early Roman Empire. For example:

    Phyrgian Myth + Hellenization = Atis Cult
    Persian Myth + Hellenization = Mithras Cult
    Egyptian Myth + Hellenization = Serapis Cult
    And finally...
    Jewish Myth + Hellenization = Christianity

    I don't see any firm evidence for Romans inventing a religion for the single purpose of pacifying Jews, but it's possible, so I'd need to see some examples of the Romans doing it intentionally some other time. I say Hellenizing as a stand-in for Latin-Greco Culture both; since Rome itself was heavily hellenized.

    Maybe I'll give his book a read.

    It is good to see people finally recognizing the Roman and Greek influences in the New Testament Gospels.

  4. Greatest I am


    Follow
    Befriend
    42 threads
    209 comments

    4   8:50am Thu 18 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Thanks for this.
    Unfortunately it does not fill my knowledge void.
    I checked the board and could not find it.
    Do you have a link to see if it fits the time line I mentioned?

    Regards
    DL

  5. thunderlips11


    Follow
    Befriend (13)
    282 threads
    5,420 comments

    5   8:22am Fri 19 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Greatest I am says

    Do you have a link to see if it fits the time line I mentioned?

    Here's a link for a general timeline of the Roman Empire:
    http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/romans.html

    A good discussion on the scarcity of secular reports on Jesus, which might be somewhat relevant:
    http://patrick.net/forum/?p=1213078

    A good discussion on the early Roman Empire as it relates to Christianity:
    http://freethoughtfestival.org/audio/FTF120428Carrier-ed.mp3

    I was incorrect about my discussion on the Jesus Myth, I most have written it for somewhere else, it's not on this board. But the Carrier Mp3 above is a good substitute.

  6. Greatest I am


    Follow
    Befriend
    42 threads
    209 comments

    6   11:09am Fri 19 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Sweet.

    Thanks for this.

    Regards
    DL

  7. Neph


    Follow
    Befriend
    12 comments

    7   1:21pm Fri 19 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    There only is Islam.

    Judaism and Christianity are man-made terms conveniently capturing the ideas of Prophets Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them). These ideas were the monotheistic nature of God which messengers from Adam to Abraham to Moses to Jesus to Mohammed (Peace be upon all of them) preached.

    They are all, in fact, Islam or submission to the will of Allah.

    Islam it the only comprehensive summary of how our live are to be lead. It is the middle path which God has chosen for us.

    Peace.

  8. Patrick


    Follow
    Befriend (55)
    5,666 threads
    6,354 comments
    male
    Menlo Park, CA
    Premium

    8   2:14pm Fri 19 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Neph says

    Islam it the only comprehensive summary of how our live are to be lead.

    Is it right and good to murder anyone who decides that Islam is false?

  9. Greatest I am


    Follow
    Befriend
    42 threads
    209 comments

    9   6:55am Sat 20 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Neph says

    There only is Islam.

    Judaism and Christianity are man-made terms conveniently capturing the ideas of Prophets Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them). These ideas were the monotheistic nature of God which messengers from Adam to Abraham to Moses to Jesus to Mohammed (Peace be upon all of them) preached.

    They are all, in fact, Islam or submission to the will of Allah.

    Islam it the only comprehensive summary of how our live are to be lead. It is the middle path which God has chosen for us.

    Peace.

    You follow a book and are an idol worshipper.
    If you are to do so you should know who wrote the book you follow.

    I will add these clips to the mix for your consideration. The first which is part of the second speaks to my Gnostic Christian label and the second shows my view of religions overall and the Noble Lie that I think we and our governments should rescind. The third clip speaks to the reason that religions were invented in the first place as it shows why social control was required for city states that had to deal with the reality of finite resources. I see these city states as led by a timocratic king who through the religion that he would have created, also realized that there had to be a tyrannical part to his benevolent duty and created a religion to be just that
    &feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D134B912A5

    &feature=autoplay&list=PLCBF574D134B912A5&playnext=1

    I see the King/God as having to have the morals shown in the Haigt clip.

    http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

    He would have to create his religion as expressed through his high priest/tyrant who would live by the first commandment of God, place no one above me as the enforcer of his King/God's rules and laws while still obeying his King. The larger Roman system would later assume the same system through the Noble Lie. First through the Flavians and later through Constantine.

    Regards
    DL

  10. Neph


    Follow
    Befriend
    12 comments

    10   9:09am Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Is it right and good to murder anyone who decides that Islam is false?

    where is the source of this?

    Patrick, great website.. your knowledge of housing markets is awseome! what makes it great is that you have substance to what you say DUE to your knowledge.

    However, your knowledge of Islam is based on "Why I'm not a Muslim" and other drivel. If you would like to know about Islam, read the Quran - the source. don't rely on misinformation. In other words, stick with housing and don't discuss issues which you have no knowledge of. It will make you look foolish.

  11. Neph


    Follow
    Befriend
    12 comments

    11   9:12am Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Greatest I am says

    You follow a book and are an idol worshipper.
    If you are to do so you should know who wrote the book you follow.

    Islam is nothing to do with idols. It is to do with monotheism. You don't know what you are talking about.

    The books of Christianity and Judaism are tainted and unreliable as they're altered as each society of the time sees fit.

  12. Patrick


    Follow
    Befriend (55)
    5,666 threads
    6,354 comments
    male
    Menlo Park, CA
    Premium

    12   9:16am Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Neph says

    Is it right and good to murder anyone who decides that Islam is false?

    where is the source of this?

    There is a death penalty for any Muslim who tries to leave Islam. That is Islamic law.

    Or how about the death penalty for blasphemy? Also Islamic law.

    Do you feel you can freely and publicly renounce Islam, or would that be likely to get you killed? If you are not free to do that, you are not free.

  13. Neph


    Follow
    Befriend
    12 comments

    13   10:41am Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    Neph says

    Is it right and good to murder anyone who decides that Islam is false?

    where is the source of this?

    There is a death penalty for any Muslim who tries to leave Islam. That is Islamic law.

    No there is not. show me the Quran source.. just google it and let me know. .

    Or how about the death penalty for blasphemy? Also Islamic law.

    Do you feel you can freely and publicly renounce Islam, or would that be likely to get you killed? If you are not free to do that, you are not free.

    feel free to leave/embrace Islam. Feel free to be blasphemous. God judges us not people... that is why there is no such consequence for apostates or blasphemy found in the Quran.

    If you see anything to the contrary to this then that is man exploiting religion to create his own laws, not Islamic law found in the Quran. In other words, yes there are bad Muslims (many of them). But as far as religion goes? Islam is the only perfection in all of existence. Some of what you are referring to are secular laws of countries which proclaim to be Muslim. Should I extrapolate everything you do to be representative of all ppl named Patrick? then don't judge Islam based on the practices of a few countries.

    feel free to renounce Islam at any time. Makes no diff.

    Hey Patrick... try questioning the Holocaust numbers... then you'll realize YOU aren't free either. :)

  14. Patrick


    Follow
    Befriend (55)
    5,666 threads
    6,354 comments
    male
    Menlo Park, CA
    Premium

    14   11:00am Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Neph says

    feel free to leave/embrace Islam. Feel free to be blasphemous

    You have a good attitude, but Islam does not. The Islamic penalty for apostasy and blasphemy are both death.

    The Koran is not a shining example of tolerance either:

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/call_to_muslims.htm

    Neph says

    that is man exploiting religion to create his own laws, not Islamic law found in the Quran.

    Islamic law (Sharia) was never based solely on the Koran, but also on the hadiths.

    Neph says

    In other words, yes there are bad Muslims (many of them).

    About a billion people say that Sharia is the right way to live, and that then necessarily includes the murder of apostates and blasphemers. Which means no freedom of religion or freedom of speech.

    But most of those people are also fundamentally good just because they are human and can see the humanity in non-Muslims. Most Muslims are good in spite of Islam, not because of it. Islam tells them to kill, but they do not. You're one of those good people I think.

    Neph says

    Islam is the only perfection in all of existence.

    I disagree. I think Islam is deeply and fundamentally flawed, because Mohammed robbed, raped, and murdered and then justified it with religion, according to official Islamic history.

    Neph says

    try questioning the Holocaust numbers... then you'll realize YOU aren't free either

    I agree with you there. It is not politically correct to question the Holocaust, and there are even laws against it in some countries. That also is a fundamental violation of freedom of speech. Yet I am pretty sure the Holocaust happened and the numbers are approximately correct. I personally met people who went through it.

  15. Neph


    Follow
    Befriend
    12 comments

    15   11:37am Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    You have a good attitude, but Islam does not. The Islamic penalty for apostasy and blasphemy are both death.

    No it is not. Show me the source in the Quran. Patrick says

    The Koran is not a shining example of tolerance either:

    seriously? Those quotes are strung together and meshed in a way to make it support ANY argument. If one were to read and understand the paragraphs BEFORE AND AFTER in the Quran, they would realize that war is waged on hypocrites who have threatened Muslim lives by a) preventing the practice of Islam by peaceful Muslims, b) removal of Muslims from their homes forcibly or c) oppression.

    That link is a joke, Patrick. come on...

    Patrick says

    Islamic law (Sharia) was never based solely on the Koran, but also on the hadiths.

    Shariah (or islamic law) can only be based off Quran and those hadiths which are consistent with the Quran. This is b/c the Quran is perfect and preserved, whereas the hadiths have some truths but also some shady things which opponents to Islam have mixed in. For this reason it can't be accepted in the way the Quran can.

    Patrick says

    About a billion people say that Sharia is the right way to live, and that then necessarily includes the murder of apostates and blasphemers. Which means no freedom of religion or freedom of speech.

    Shariah can not be enforced on non-Muslims, therefore yr statement is untrue.

    Patrick says

    Most Muslims are good in spite of Islam, not because of it. Islam tells them to kill, but they do not. You're one of those good people I think.

    If I do any good it's b/c of God. If I were left to my own devices I would just spend this life in pleasure with drugs, women etc.... why not? if there were no further life after this, then what would stop me? No, it's BECAUSE of Islam and God-consciousness which leads one to always strive (and THIS is jihad) to fight temptations such as that.

    hahaha Islam doesn't tell to indiscriminately kill. What do you think this is blackwater/xe/AIPAC? Per the Quran, any harm against a single soul unjustly is harming all of humanity.

    Patrick says

    Mohammed robbed, raped, and murdered and then justified it with religion, according to official Islamic history.

    who did he rob? nobody. where's yr source?
    raped? nobody. source?
    murdered in battle against hypocrites who violated a trust to protect Muslims and for Muslims to protect the Quraishi Arabs in the region? yes, because Muslim lives were threated by traitors - a standard punishment for traitors was (and even today) is death.

    What is this Official Islamic History you speak of? hahah nothing could be shadier than that statement. come on Patrick...

  16. Patrick


    Follow
    Befriend (55)
    5,666 threads
    6,354 comments
    male
    Menlo Park, CA
    Premium

    16   12:17pm Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Neph says

    Show me the source in the Quran.

    If you do not accept Islamic law, then you are not a Muslim, according to Islam.

    Neph says

    Those quotes are strung together and meshed in a way to make it support ANY argument.

    Those quotes look very clear to me. I don't see how they could be misinterpreted.

    Neph says

    the Quran is perfect

    The Koran contains many errors. For example, it confuses Miriam the sister of Moses with Miriam the mother of Jesus.

    Neph says

    Shariah can not be enforced on non-Muslims

    The people trying to kill cartoonists who draw Mohammed are definitely trying to enforce Sharia on non-Muslims.

    Neph says

    If I were left to my own devices I would just spend this life in pleasure with drugs, women etc.... why not? if there were no further life after this, then what would stop me?

    What would stop you is your ability to question things and think for yourself, which Islam forbids you from doing.

    Thinking people can see that drugs are harmful, promiscous sex leads to disease, and that treating others as you would want to be treated is the best way to live, whether there is an afterlife or not.

    Neph says

    Islam doesn't tell to indiscriminately kill

    I didn't say indiscriminate. Islam tells you to kill anyone who asserts freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

    Neph says

    who did he rob? nobody. where's yr source?

    All Islamic sources acknowledge that Mohammed robbed caravans.

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/muhammad/myths-mu-raid-caravans.htm

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/op-ed/was-badr-a-battle-or-muhammads-highway-robbery/

    http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbworld.aspx?pageid=8589953043

    Neph says

    raped? nobody. source?

    http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/45-ali-sina/622-did-muhammad-rape-safiyah.html

    http://alisina.org/blog/2010/12/04/aisha-the-child-bride-of-muhammad/

    Safiya was a prisoner and Mohammed slept with her on the same day he killed her family. Not likely she was in the mood.

    Aisha was 9 when Mohammed slept with her. Statuatory rape.

    Neph says

    murdered

    He didn't just murder the 600 or more Quereshi after they surrendered, he also ordered the murder of 100 year old Abu Afak, and approved the murder of the pregnant mother Asma bint Marwan for writing poetry that mocked him, for example.

    Where is the forgiveness and tolerance? Mohammed does not look like a good example of humanity, let alone anyone you should follow.

  17. Neph


    Follow
    Befriend
    12 comments

    17   12:57pm Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    those statements from the Quran are strung together from different verses into what the writer wants the reader to believe is a single linear paragraph, when it's not.

    Patrick says

    The Koran contains many errors. For example, it confuses Miriam the sister of Moses with Miriam the mother of Jesus.

    huh? there is no mention of Moses' sister in the Quran. It only refers to Miriam (or Mary) mother of Jesus (peace be upon him).Patrick says

    The people trying to kill cartoonists who draw Mohammed are definitely trying to enforce Sharia on non-Muslims.

    once again, Muslims who do not understand Islam bad, Islam perfect.

    All your sources are islamophobic hate sites. they spew lies and have no basis.

    Even Mohammed's (peace be upon him) enemies couldn't question his character, and now 1400 some years later, you do?

    you have no credible, intelligent source of what you say. I could just as well make up anything and have others (who are paid to say what they say) regurgitate the same garbage.

    Patrick says

    Where is the forgiveness and tolerance? Mohammed does not look like a good example of humanity, let alone anyone you should follow.

    Read his speech upon return to mecca, when the Quraish had tried killing him numerous times, when they'd oppressed him (peace be upon him ( PBUH) ) and the Muslims and killed many of them.. .he returned and asked them in his speech how he should treat them ... He (PBUH) forgave them all.

    When Patrick says

    Aisha was 9 when Mohammed slept with her. Statuatory rape.

    9 was a common age of marriage. See Solomon (PBUH) who married young as well. it was customary.

    the rape accusation is baseless. see above.

  18. joshuatrio


    Follow
    Befriend
    47 threads
    758 comments

    18   2:52pm Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Neph says

    once again, Muslims who do not understand Islam bad, Islam perfect.

    From the little studying I've done on Islam - the biggest problem I have with it are that current manuscripts don't match up with the old ones.

    Apparently there are around 30-35 known versions, these were then whittled down to a handful or so currently accepted versions. These newer versions vary so greatly that the meaning of the text takes on a different meaning. Even Muslim scholars acknowledge this crap.

    So if this text is so sacred, and so divine - why isn't the current copy a photocopy of the original?

  19. curious2


    Follow
    Befriend (4)
    118 threads
    4,508 comments

    19   3:17pm Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Neph says

    Muslims who do not understand Islam bad, Islam perfect.

    Evidently then, a huge number of Muslims do not understand Islam, which may explain why Shia and Sunni are killing each other in Iraq. This raises a definition question: whose definition of Islam is the one right one, if any? There is no perfect religion. Good people can be good in spite of religion, but religion too often has the opposite effect: it misleads people who would otherwise be good into doing terrible things, e.g. killing their own daughters.

  20. Patrick


    Follow
    Befriend (55)
    5,666 threads
    6,354 comments
    male
    Menlo Park, CA
    Premium

    20   4:46pm Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Neph says

    you have no credible, intelligent source of what you say

    Just look up each of those events in whatever official Islamic source you like.

    There are many more when you're done with those.

    Neph says

    Even Mohammed's (peace be upon him) enemies couldn't question his character, and now 1400 some years later, you do?

    Mohammed's character was definitely questioned at the time, for example by Abu Afak and Asma bint Marwan, who Mohammed then murdered for their impertinance.

    Neph says

    huh? there is no mention of Moses' sister in the Quran. It only refers to Miriam (or Mary) mother of Jesus (peace be upon him).

    Koran 19:27-28 -- "At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: 'O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

    Anyway, I know that sincerly looking at the facts of the origin of Islam is probably very painful, would lead to the loss of certainty, loss of friends and maybe family, and maybe even your own life, so I can't expect you do it.

    But I do appreciate your polite responses.

  21. Neph


    Follow
    Befriend
    12 comments

    21   5:09pm Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    joshuatrio says

    Apparently there are around 30-35 known versions,

    no there is only one. that is why there are ppl who memorize the Quran - called Hafiz.

    where's yr source on numerous versions.curious2 says

    whose definition of Islam is the one right one, if any?

    good question. one has to apply logic which is consistent with the Quran. if one can justify it, then it's correct else it's incorrect. the basic tenets are to enjoin good with good and prohibit evil.Patrick says

    Koran 19:27-28 -- "At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: 'O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

    that doesn't mean direct sister. here's a link for something which has been around for 1400 years. Patrick, you are simply taking hate sites convenient links and shotgunning any ammunition:

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/mary.html

    Patrick says

    Anyway, I know that sincerly looking at the facts of the origin of Islam is probably very painful, would lead to the loss of certainty, loss of friends and maybe family, and maybe even your own life, so I can't expect you do it.

    on the contrary! it only strengthens me to see the arguments islamophobes have had for generations, and muslims topple them all. when I look at the origins of Islam I start with Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed (peacebe upon all of them) and I see the unifying message which only Islam contains regarding the universality of God.

    your arguments are fabrications which any hate site can concoct. think it's tough? ppl like michelle gellar, daniel pipes, robert spencer... these ppl get paid...they get PAID to slander Islam. and you do it for free. have you ever thought to maybe even read the Quran - the source of Islam before selling it short?

    I definitely recommmend it.

    want a copy? I'll mail it to you. then decide for yourself. If you read it and decide you were right, then you've got all the credibility in the world and lots of arguments to back you up...let me know and i'll send you a self addressed mailer to return it to me. If you're wrong, maybe you'll learn something.

    what've you got to lose?

    applies to anyone.

    indie1212 at hotmail dot com

  22. Patrick


    Follow
    Befriend (55)
    5,666 threads
    6,354 comments
    male
    Menlo Park, CA
    Premium

    22   5:13pm Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   Protected  

    I've read the Koran twice and get the gist of it. I was not impressed. It does not contain coherent stories like the bible does. Instead, it seems to consist mostly of hectoring threats of punishment for non-believers.

    Neph says

    what've you got to lose?

    My freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of speech.

    The nightly glass of wine I greatly enjoy.

    Bacon.

  23. Neph


    Follow
    Befriend
    12 comments

    23   5:45pm Thu 25 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    ahahha

    suit yrself

    to each their own.

  24. joshuatrio


    Follow
    Befriend
    47 threads
    758 comments

    24   8:31am Fri 26 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Neph says

    no there is only one. that is why there are ppl who memorize the Quran - called Hafiz.

    where's yr source on numerous versions.

    No. There is not only one. Google is your friend.

    The quran was passed down from so called "readers" - who each wrote down their own interpretation/memorization of this "book." From one author to the next, there are too many errors/discrepancies for you to say there is only ONE quran. I read somewhere that there are over 1,000 differences from one author to the next - that the text takes on different meanings.

    Sorry man, but if this were divinely written - it would be perfectly preserved; and not sown together from so-called "readers" who recorded this book differently.

    You can call your religion faith, or whatever you want - but there are too many historic, scientific, and grammatical errors for it to be the work of a perfect being.

    Patrick says

    Bacon.

    +1

  25. Patrick


    Follow
    Befriend (55)
    5,666 threads
    6,354 comments
    male
    Menlo Park, CA
    Premium

    25   8:37am Fri 26 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Protected  

    Early Muslims did make a good attempt to standardize on a single version. Caliph Uthman burned alternate versions of the Koran in 634:

    http://www.harvardhouse.com/quran_purity.htm

    There are three Arabic letters at the beginning of each chapter of the Koran of unknown meaning. My guess is that they are a checksum, the same way that computers use checksums as in the Unix command "sum".

  26. joshuatrio


    Follow
    Befriend
    47 threads
    758 comments

    26   8:56am Fri 26 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Patrick says

    Caliph Uthman burned alternate versions of the Koran in 634:

    They wanted to standardize the book because the differences were so great between all the different versions floating around. Seems to me that the leaders at the time were more concerned people would doubt islam - or which version was "true."

  27. thunderlips11


    Follow
    Befriend (13)
    282 threads
    5,420 comments

    27   9:16am Fri 26 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Neph says

    joshuatrio says

    Apparently there are around 30-35 known versions,

    no there is only one. that is why there are ppl who memorize the Quran - called Hafiz.

    where's yr source on numerous versions.

    Josh is correct.

    Like the Sinai Codex, which is a Bible with substantially different parts AND is earlier than much of the fragments and scrolls that were historically used (and still used in the King James and other traditional versions), for example there is the Samarkand Koran, which contains very different wordings, missing pieces, and added pieces the commonly used versions of the Koran today do not have.

    In the 19th C. when the Sinai Codex was found, many Christians insisted the Sinai Codex was Satanic. Some still hold that position, the reason they advocate "King James Only" as the KJV was compiled long before the discovery of the Sinai Codex.

    In Islam, the "King James Version" is the 1342 Cairo Text; here is a background on some of the textual variations:

    http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/16608

    Like Christian Fundamentalists and the Bible, Muslim Fundamentalists try to argue the Koran was complete and safe-guarded from the beginning from change; textual evidence suggests otherwise. Like the Epistles and Gospels, complete versions can be found no earlier than 100 years after the life of the Founder - and there are many differences in the earlier copy. In fact, there are more differences between earlier copies than later copies (in Christianity)

  28. Neph


    Follow
    Befriend
    12 comments

    28   1:09pm Sat 27 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    There is only one version.

    you guys must use the same islamophobe handbook.

    all your arguments are retread lines conveniently packaged onto websites. If you'd take any time to read the Quran from front to back (which Patrick I guarantee you did not do, rather it's simply lines from hate sites which constitutes your "reading the Quran twice") you would realize that all your arguments are baseless.

    we are getting nowhere as you refuse to go to the source and, rather, rely on lies. this is like creating your own reality - you can never be wrong, then. Enjoy preaching to your choir and getting no where in searching for the truth.

    Unfortunately, you and some of the others here are a microcosm of the foxnews/neocons in that you revel in the absolute certainty you carry yourselves in your beliefs and opinions because. .... you surround yourselves and live in your own opinion!

    here's the bottom line:

    [Kafiroon 109:1] Proclaim, (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him), “O disbelievers!”

    [Kafiroon 109:2] Neither do I worship what you worship.

    [Kafiroon 109:3] Nor do you worship Whom I worship.

    [Kafiroon 109:4] And neither will I ever worship what you worship.

    [Kafiroon 109:5] Nor will you worship Whom I worship.

    [Kafiroon 109:6] For you is your religion, and for me is mine.

  29. thunderlips11


    Follow
    Befriend (13)
    282 threads
    5,420 comments

    29   2:00pm Sat 27 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Neph says

    There is only one version.

    So how do you square the differences between the Korans over the centuries?

    By denying it.

    Just like KJV-only Christians deny the most ancient copies of NT epistles and gospels.

  30. Bap33


    Follow
    Befriend (3)
    17 threads
    3,488 comments

    30   4:05pm Sat 27 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Maybe Neph can give us some of the ways to know if a person is a true follower of his religion, or not? I only assume there are some type of rules of behavior, dress, and conduct, and maybe some bloodline rules, but I do not know.

    So, Neph, if you would please, please list for us how you, Neph, are able to judge if someone is following your religion, and doing so correctly.

    I would think that it is pretty important to know who's on who's side before strapping on the TNT vest. Thank you.

  31. curious2


    Follow
    Befriend (4)
    118 threads
    4,508 comments

    31   4:24pm Sat 27 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    Neph says

    lies.... Unfortunately, you...revel in the absolute certainty you carry yourselves in your beliefs and opinions because. .... you surround yourselves and live in your own opinion!

    Actually, that is precisely what you are doing Neph. Others are citing a wide range of sources, considering and debating different ideas, yet when people prove you wrong you call them all liars. You insist with absolute certainty that your stated opinion is perfect, even though it is not shared by most people nor even most of those who claim to believe in the religion that you profess. This is a basic problem of religious fundamentalism generally, the insistence on a received text as a perfect statement that must be true in all respects. Such a belief system denies the inevitable errors in translation, differences of opinion, etc. The reason is because the motive is to find one true omnipotent force controlling everything and answering all questions. Putting motive ahead of evidence, i.e. seeing what you want to see, is wishful thinking.

    Prioritizing that, i.e. insisting that the world must be exactly what you wish regardless of evidence and conflicting opinion, is what misleads many Muslims into killing each other. They can't handle the fact that the world doesn't conform to what they want to believe, so they destroy ancient Buddhist statues in order to conceal evidence that other people had other opinions and a more advanced civilization.

    On a related point, the most ardent proselytisers are usually those with the most doubt. So, if anyone is lying, it's probably Neph.

  32. joshuatrio


    Follow
    Befriend
    47 threads
    758 comments

    32   9:07am Mon 29 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Neph says

    If you'd take any time to read the Quran from front to back (which Patrick I guarantee you did not do, rather it's simply lines from hate sites which constitutes your "reading the Quran twice") you would realize that all your arguments are baseless.

    Any religion where the original manuscripts were burned - so that people wouldn't doubt a "true Islam" has already lost credibility.

    Come on, you guys pray towards a rock - that you think is sacred, because some guy may have stepped on it.

    And you think we should have "faith" in "allah?"

    Neph says

    we are getting nowhere as you refuse to go to the source and, rather, rely on lies.

    It's pretty obvious that you haven't looked into the lies of Islam.

    Neph says

    Unfortunately, you and some of the others here are a microcosm of the foxnews/neocons in that you revel in the absolute certainty you carry yourselves in your beliefs and opinions because.

    I hate Fox news.

  33. Neph


    Follow
    Befriend
    12 comments

    33   9:36am Mon 29 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    whose arguments carry more weight:

    someone who's read the book

    or

    someone who gets paid, as an industry, to slam the book.

    this discussion has no merit from your perspectives b/c you speak without knowledge.

    btw: the link to numerous versions of the Quran are referring to the english translations - the original arabic is unchanged since the beginning.

  34. joshuatrio


    Follow
    Befriend
    47 threads
    758 comments

    34   10:10am Mon 29 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Neph says

    whose arguments carry more weight:

    someone who's read the book

    or

    someone who gets paid, as an industry, to slam the book.

    Neither. Whoever understands the history of the book does.

    Neph says

    this discussion has no merit from your perspectives b/c you speak without knowledge.

    You may want to re-read this thread.

    Neph says

    the original arabic is unchanged since the beginning.

    Wrong again. You don't know your history. Please re-read this thread.

  35. Mark


    Follow
    Befriend
    3 threads
    93 comments

    35   12:23pm Mon 29 Oct 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    There is an answer, maybe people shouldn't base the way they live based on collections of ancient fables. Science and reason are the path to truth.

Greatest I am is moderator of this thread.

Email

Username

Watch comments by email
Home   Tips and Tricks   Questions or suggestions? Mail p@patrick.net   Thank you for your kind donations

Page took 322 milliseconds to create.