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Will the Republicans please now drop their theocratic crusade?


By curious2   Follow   Tue, 6 Nov 2012, 5:50pm PST   5,441 views   99 comments   Watch (0)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

Election results show President Obama got a majority of the popular vote again, in addition to winning the electoral college 300 vs 200. That happened even with an approval rating below 50%, and ObamaCare polling at -10%. Granted, President Obama is an extraordinary campaigner, but the larger issue is that many Americans felt they had no real choice: Republicans devolved into an apocalyptic cult offering only catastrophic Romnesia.

To borrow Bill Clinton's phrase, America built a bridge to the 21st century, and we are not going back. Republicans' bronze-age pact with Pat Robertson is no longer a "winning" formula, if it ever was. Contrary to freak80's delusional and deeply disturbed fears, supporters of same-sex marriage appear to have won a majority in all four states where the issue was on the ballot. That is consistent with polls showing majority support nationally since 2010. In other words, divide-and-misrule holy warrior crusades seem no longer to be a viable electoral strategy.

The issue is, now, will the Republicans even try to convert from a faith-based apocalyptic cult to an evidence-based political party with coherent governing principles? Or, will they blame Satan and persist on their current course?

To remind any Republican readers of American history, the first Republican President (Lincoln) signed the Emancipation Proclamation, championed the 13th Amendment, and rejected proposals to put "In God we Trust" on the currency. (Possibly the pre-eminent lawyer of his generation, Lincoln believed it would raise an impermissible establishment of religion. He also worried about fiat money, but that's another story.) Alas Lincoln's true legacy seems long forgotten now, at least among the party he helped create.

I ask this question because I believe that America needs at least two viable political parties, preferably more. Instead, we have two rival patronage networks, one of which is an apocalyptic cult. Can we please move on to a time when we can have a real choice in elections?

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AverageBear   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 11:25am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 60

curious2 says

Election results show President Obama got a majority of the popular vote again

Election results show that the GOP got a majority of the popular vote in the House of Reps again..... Ain't "Balance of Power" a bitch?

AverageBear   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 11:33am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (2)     Comment 61

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

Rape needs to be taught in schools.
Otherwise America will have no meaning and make God angry.

Rape doesn't need to be taught. Any family w/ two working parents making over 100K, and trying to raise a family on either coast knows what rape is all about, especially around April 15th.....You want to talk about anger? You'll see plenty of anger if those EBT-lovin' folks stop 'getting their's when they have no money for their booze, lottery scratch tickets, lap dances, bail and nail salons. HAHAHAHA..

Bellingham Bill   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 11:36am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 62

AverageBear says

I'd say Reagan, and you'll probably whine about massive military spending. Well, some presidents don't have to worry about trying to end a cold war w/ a super-power.

Ahaha haha ahaha hah. SU was totally falling apart then. The mid-80s oil glut had more to do with their final collapse than Reaganism.

Besides, Reagan's fault wasn't the DOD spending, it was the debt leverage:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=cDg for non-financial debt,

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=cCt

for everybody.

Plus defense spending wasn't that big a budget buster compared to everything else that was going on:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=cDo

red is gov't debt (2005 dollars)
blue is real defense spending (also 2005 dollars)

shows that Reagan took the DOD up from Carter's ~$400/yr of FY81 to ~$520B/yr (+$120B/yr), while he allowed the Democratic Congress to *double* the national debt up from $1.5T to $3.0T. So only about one third of the debt run up on his watch was due to DOD expansion.

bdrasin   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 11:42am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 63

AverageBear says

curious2 says

Election results show President Obama got a majority of the popular vote again

Election results show that the GOP got a majority of the popular vote in the House of Reps again..... Ain't "Balance of Power" a bitch?

No sir. More Americans voted for Democrats:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/08/1158861/-Democrats-Win-Popular-Vote-for-House-of-Representatives

The Republican majority is due to the extreme anti-democracy gerrymandering the GOP did in the wake of the 2010 elections when they took control of state governments. This country is going to pay an awful price for years to come for the tantrum we collectively threw in 2010.

Bellingham Bill   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 11:43am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 64

AverageBear says

Election results show that the GOP got a majority of the popular vote in the House of Reps again.....

nevermind

Ain't "Balance of Power" a bitch?

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/tocs/a1_7_1.html

Get crackin'. We need $1.5T/yr of new revenue to close the deficit, LOL

curious2   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 12:09pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 65

AverageBear says

So you give me 24 Reps, and ask for a conservative GOP prez? I'd say Reagan, and you'll probably whine about massive military spending. Well, some presidents don't have to worry about trying to end a cold war w/ a super-power. He also happened to pass on one of the healthiest economies off to Clinton via tax cuts. SPeanking of tax cuts and fiscally conservative democrats. I would definitely vote for JFK if he ran today.

Reagan never balanced a budget in his eight years as President; to the contrary, he broke records for chronic deficits. And, the economy fell into recession during the term of his successor, GHW Bush. JFK had much higher tax rates than Clinton or either Bush.

I don't know where you get your information, but you should really look for more objective sources.

curious2   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 12:35pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (3)   Dislike     Comment 66

dodgerfanjohn says

Bleach Curious2, your arguments are a tangled mess confusing things that can't realistically be done(amending the Constitution) and then citing stuff that has nothing to do with the point I made(that presidential candidates discussing social legislation is irrelevant).

Although I don't understand the bleach reference, the rest of your post has helped me, even though you sound critical and misinformed. You helped me to learn something I should have learned years ago, about the difficulty of communicating effectively.

I thought the Martin Niemöller quote would make the point, perhaps too heavy-handedly, but your reply caused me to look at this year's election from a different angle and I will try to explain using more recent references.

Decades ago, people used to refer to the President of the United States as "the leader of the free world." Leadership requires communication. With a truly unexpected sense of awe, I am beginning to see how President Obama won re-election: he was by far the best available candidate for leader of the free world. I will try to explain why.

Consider the two issues Bill provided statistics on above: abortion and same-sex marriage. A majority of Americans are pro-choice and support marriage equality. President Obama and his supporters brought that message into black churches, including heavily Evangelical churches that did not want to hear that message. I don't know what words he used, so I hope you will bear with me as I try to guess based on speeches at the convention. He made the case that America is one nation indivisible, even in churches accustomed to hearing the 1950's amended pledge (signed by Eisenhower) "one nation under God." He made JFK's case that a rising tide lifts all boats, and in a sense we are all in the same boat, and he tied together a coalition including even demonstrably unpopular policies such as Obamacare. He brought this message of inclusion and unity even into places that didn't want to hear it.

In contrast, Romnesia and Ryan campaigned on amending the constitution to require women to carry rape-induced pregnancies to term, and the Republican platform of some states (e.g. Oklahoma) promises incarceration of gay couples (at taxpayer expense!) for "sodomy". Republican candidates campaign on America being "a Christian country," "taking our country back," etc. Romney and Ryan did not challenge any of that, they never stood up to the worst in their party. They campaigned on a reductivist philosophy intended to serve only their chosen Americans, whether Christians, white male Christians, or ultimately white male Christians who are members of the 1%.

Now imagine you are an American citizen choosing a leader of the free world, and you are anyone other than a white male Christian. As you look at these two candidates, which seems more likely to work for you? If you think honestly and clearly about that, you can see how Obama won a majority of Americans. He won among women by 10%, among Latinos and Asians by 40%, and among African Americans by 80%. Contrary to Bill O'Reilly, these aren't all people who "want stuff" from government. Asians on average already have more stuff than white Americans anyway, yet they voted overwhelmingly for Obama. Consider Hawaii's new Senator: born in Japan, she is the first Buddhist elected to the United States Senate.

Am I drawing the picture clearly enough now? Republicans' theocratic crusade reflects a failure of leadership. A real leader among Republicans would have communicated with his base as Ron Paul tried to do, when he said, "We have to be honest with ourselves." Republicans booed, but a real leader would have insisted, would have reminded them that George Washington and John Adams and Thomas Jefferson all agreed that America is not a Christian country, no matter how many Christians live here. Barack Obama made the case that America does not impose any religion, even in the places where people didn't want to hear that.

Now imagine you were born somewhere else, maybe you look a little different, maybe not of the same religion as most people here, maybe you're gay, maybe you're a woman who worries about possibly getting raped someday, or maybe you simply care about someone who fits any of those descriptions. You hear one candidate pandering to fundamentalist nutjobs saying they're going to take their country back. You hear the other candidate talking about inclusion, about one nation indivisible, and he makes everyone know he will stand up for that principle even where it isn't popular. Who is your candidate to be the leader of the free world?

thomaswong.1986   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 12:42pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 67

curious2 says

las Lincoln's true legacy seems long forgotten now, at least among the party he helped create.

As if Lincoln was the only Republican President. But its the only one Liberals can talk about. Heck, even by liberals standard, Kennedy would be considered a right wing nut extremist.

dodgerfanjohn   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 12:54pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 68

Good lord dude....not emotionally impulsive at all are you?

Again, I didn't argue anything except that presidential candidates positions on social issues are almost entirely lip service designed to get people like you to go vote for them.

Therefore those positions are COMPLETELY irrelevant.

thomaswong.1986   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 1:01pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 69

curious2 says

Republican candidates campaign on America being "a Christian country," "taking our country back," etc. Romney and Ryan did not challenge any of that, they never stood up to the worst in their party. They campaigned on a reductivist philosophy intended to serve only their chosen Americans, whether Christians, white male Christians, or ultimately white male Christians who are members of the 1%.

Yes, we have a long history of the Western-Christian tradition, specifically Northwestern Europe. Our western tradition is unique as is Asian, African Southern/Eastern European and Pacific Islanders who also have theres. Their culture equally serves their needs. Fact is many aspects of the OUR western culture, including Christianity is appealing to many world wide and many adopt such values when they come here. They are welcomed here.

Of course there are some like you who cant compete with the Western-Christian tradition no matter how hard they try so they complain, bitch, and complain some more..

curious2   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 1:03pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 70

dodgerfanjohn says

Therefore those positions are COMPLETELY irrelevant.

I am sorry. As Ben Kenobi says to Anakin Skywalker at the end of Star Wars III, "I have failed you." Somehow, I have failed to explain the blindingly obvious relevance and significance, or maybe you just didn't want to hear it. That would only reinforce of course the point that successful leadership requires effective communication, which is inherently difficult. Anyway this thread has helped me understand the election result, I am sorry if it didn't help you understand anything at all.

dodgerfanjohn   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 1:06pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 71

Thomas.....

You cannot argue with Curious...at least not in a rational manner. You need to appeal to his emotional side to get a response from him. See post above^^^^^^^

He clearly is more than willing to vote for a president based on opinions the president holds, but cannot legislate or enact as policy.

And that is LOL

curious2   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 1:06pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 72

thomaswong.1986 says

Of course there are some like you who cant compete with the Western-Christian tradition no matter how hard they try so they complain, bitch, and complain some more..

Can you please explain that statement? I really don't understand it at all.

curious2   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 1:09pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 73

dodgerfanjohn says

You cannot argue with Curious...at least not in a rational manner... He clearly is more than willing to vote for a president based on opinions the president holds, but cannot legislate or enact as policy.

Can you please explain that statement too? It seems to me that you underestimate, vastly, the power of the Presidency. Might it be rational to consider, for example, who appoints federal judges? Or how much of a President's time is devoted to recruiting and campaigning for political allies for other offices?

thomaswong.1986   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 1:31pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 74

curious2 says

would have reminded them that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and James Madison all agreed that America is not a Christian country, no matter how many Christians live here.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Washington

The quotes below are from George Washington.. by todays standard he would be called a lunatic right wing Christian fanatic...

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"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country."

General Order, (9 July 1776) George Washington Papers at the Library of Congress, 1741-1799: Series 3g Varick Transcripts.

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" The time is now near at hand which must probably determine whether Americans are to be freemen or slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their houses and farms are to be pillaged and destroyed, and themselves consigned to a state of wretchedness from which no human efforts will deliver them. The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the courage and conduct of this army. Our cruel and unrelenting enemy leaves us only the choice of brave resistance, or the most abject submission. We have, therefore, to resolve to conquer or die."

George Washington - Address to the Continental Army before the Battle of Long Island (27 August 1776).

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While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.

George Washinngton General Orders (2 May 1778); published in Writings of George Washington (1932), Vol.XI, pp. 342-343.

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I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection; that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large; and, particularly, for their brethren who have served in the Geld; and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacifick temper of the mind, which were the characteristicks of the divine Author of our blessed religion ; without an humble imitation of whose example, in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation.

- George Washington, "Circular to the States" (8 June 1783)

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May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit under his own vine and fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid.

Letter to the Hebrew Congregation of Newport, Rhode Island (1790).
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thomaswong.1986   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 1:38pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 75

chanakya4773 says

Just highlighting the perception. the 47% comment, his background,money from 1%..etc enhanced that image.

yes.. it was indeed on perception.. but little on facts from Obama.

I would count more and few who here, in the pic, who also count as money from 1%
Had it been Romney in the pic, the media would be all over this like flies on shit.

Bigsby   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 1:50pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 76

thomaswong.1986 says

chanakya4773 says

Just highlighting the perception. the 47% comment, his background,money from 1%..etc enhanced that image.

yes.. it was indeed on perception.. but little on facts from Obama.

I would count more and few who here, in the pic, who also count as money from 1%

Had it been Romney in the pic, the media would be all over this like flies on shit.

Why? Politicians sitting down with rich people isn't something that is going to get the media into a frenzy. However, sitting down with rich people and talking about 47% of the US population...

thomaswong.1986   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 2:09pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 77

Bigsby says

However, sitting down with rich people and talking about 47% of the US population...

when it politics.. its always about some % of demographics...

Here is the transcript... the fact is many agree with Romney's comment that its difficult for him to connect with that group. the 47% is a good comment that applies to California.. so many people in California gave up.. thats why they been leaving in larger and larger numbers... The rest of us 50% in CA are working for the other 50%. This is not sustainable..

"“There are 47% of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47% who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you name it…These are people who pay no income tax, 47% of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesn’t connect. So he’ll (President Obama) be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. I mean, that’s what they sell every four years.

And so my job is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.

What I have to do is convince the five to ten percent in the center that are independents, that are thoughtful, that look at voting one or the other depending upon in some cases emotion, whether they like the guy or not.”

mell   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 2:13pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 78

thomaswong.1986 says

Here is the transcript... the fact is many agree with Romney's comment that its difficult for him to connect with that group. the 47% is a good comment that applies to California.. so many people in California gave up.. thats why they been leaving in larger and larger numbers... The rest of us 50% in CA are working for the other 50%. This is not sustainable..

Have to agree with that. The more people are dependent on government, the less likely anybody advocating cuts and denying them more of the same is going to get elected. And yes, this is not sustainable.

Bigsby   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 2:14pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 79

thomaswong.1986 says

"“There are 47% of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47% who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you name it…These are people who pay no income tax, 47% of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesn’t connect. So he’ll (President Obama) be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. I mean, that’s what they sell every four years.

And so my job is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.

What I have to do is convince the five to ten percent in the center that are independents, that are thoughtful, that look at voting one or the other depending upon in some cases emotion, whether they like the guy or not.”

Why exactly are you trying to defend the indefensible? Do you seriously think that was an appropriate thing for someone who was running for the highest office in your country to say?

Bigsby   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 2:21pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 80

mell says

thomaswong.1986 says

Here is the transcript... the fact is many agree with Romney's comment that its difficult for him to connect with that group. the 47% is a good comment that applies to California.. so many people in California gave up.. thats why they been leaving in larger and larger numbers... The rest of us 50% in CA are working for the other 50%. This is not sustainable..

Have to agree with that. The more people are dependent on government, the less likely anybody advocating cuts and denying them more of the same is going to get elected. And yes, this is not sustainable.

You agree with his statement that 50% of people in CA are working to support the other 50%? Really?

thomaswong.1986   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 2:37pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 81

Bigsby says

Why exactly are you trying to defend the indefensible? Do you seriously think that was an appropriate thing for someone who was running for the highest office in your country to say?

Straight honest truth.. from a Mormon who doesnt drink or smoke.....

Who came to serve the public and resolve real issues

God almighty .. Must you even ask.. Tough Love Baby!

thomaswong.1986   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 2:44pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 82

Bigsby says

You agree with his statement that 50% of people in CA are working to support the other 50%? Really?

well the distance from sunny Monterey to the Real World is indeed miles and miles away.

mell   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 2:45pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 83

Bigsby says

mell says

thomaswong.1986 says

Here is the transcript... the fact is many agree with Romney's comment that its difficult for him to connect with that group. the 47% is a good comment that applies to California.. so many people in California gave up.. thats why they been leaving in larger and larger numbers... The rest of us 50% in CA are working for the other 50%. This is not sustainable..

Have to agree with that. The more people are dependent on government, the less likely anybody advocating cuts and denying them more of the same is going to get elected. And yes, this is not sustainable.

You agree with his statement that 50% of people in CA are working to support the other 50%? Really?

Sure, I cannot give you exact numbers, but if you take the percentage of people who are depending on government handouts/subsidies/foodstamps etc. and knowing that the government itself does not create any wealth, then the only conclusion is that that money has to come from those who don't depend/over-produce. Or you can pay for it for quite a while via deficit spending, but then future generations will pay for it and basically be born as debtors/dependents until the system collapses. That being said, I am not opposed to a mix of measures including raising taxes on the wealthy but that has to come with radical spending cuts and a clear path of getting those dependent off of government support, otherwise nothing is achieved and the system will eventually collapse.

curious2   befriend   ignore   Thu, 8 Nov 2012, 2:47pm PST   Share   Quote