Will Republicans change their tune given the shift in demographics?


By edvard2   Follow   Fri, 9 Nov 2012, 9:43am   4,470 views   69 comments
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Given that much has been made of the shifting demographics and its role in this year's election: That even though a huge percentage of the typical Republican voting demographic voted for them it wasn't enough to overcome the sheer number of minority voters who overwhelmingly support Democrats. A lot has been made out of this because it indicates that Republicans will need to get more people to vote for them beyond those who currently do so.

As indicated by some of the right-leaning comments on this and other sites, its fairly clear that their current base of voters probably isn't going to change. They will keep right on using the same talking points and arguments that are not appealing to minority voters. So this is more a conversation about what the Republican politicians plan on doing.

Its a potentially sticky situation. How to keep their traditional base happy yet at the same time appear to be reaching out to other groups? How do they move forward with a kind of rhetoric that is more inclusive versus exclusive? Lastly, is it possible for them to untangle themselves from the heavy influence of right wing entertainment and if so, would this be a good thing?

The thing is that Republicans will have to change if the hope to remain relevant in the future. So the question is how can they do it, and will they even do so?

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  1. thomaswong.1986


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    30   11:25am Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    marcus says

    It's like me, relative to Rachel Maddow. I consider her far more reality based than say Sean Hannity, but still her bias is strong and at times a ittle over the top for me, but still I sometimes like listening to what she has to say.

    Dont hold your breath thinking Maddow's rating will increase or Hannity's will decline.
    MSNBC ratings are not very strong..and their ranks are slipping.

  2. marcus


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    31   11:31am Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (1)  

    That competition between good ideas, from both sides, about real problems in the real country should result in our country having better choices, better options, than if only one side is really working on the hard stuff. And if the Republican party, and the conservative movement, and the conservative media is stuck in a vacuum sealed, door locked, spin cycle of telling each other what makes them feel good, and denying the factual, lived truth of the world, then we are all deprived, as a nation, of the constructive debate between competing, feasible ideas about real problems.

    That's Maddow, talking the way democrats talk when they get in their bubble.

  3. thomaswong.1986


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    32   11:41am Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Thomas Sowell : The Difference Between Liberal and Conservative
    and the "anointed ones" ..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KHdhrNhh88&feature=related

  4. Bellingham Bill


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    33   1:06pm Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    marcus says

    They know those entertainers are whacko at times but they listen anyway.

    the important thing is to not hear something that pisses you off because you really disagree with it for some reason.

    People mostly love to hear their biases bounced back at them.

  5. Buster


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    34   1:42pm Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    So there are many reasons provided here and elsewhere for the GOP meltdown. As far as I can tell, the biggest reason for this is their refusal to embrace reality which generally include science, math, accounting, and a long list of verifiable facts. As a sampling, here is the GOP leadership on their predictions for the outcome of this election even when there were multiple polls that suggested otherwise, such as Nate Silver's predictions.

    "Here comes the landslide… The result was that the presidential race reached a tipping point. Reasonable voters saw that the voice of hope and optimism and positivism was Romney while the president was only a nitpicking, quarrelsome, negative figure. The contrast does not work in Obama’s favor," - Dick Morris, The Hill.

    "There is no denying the Republicans have the passion now, the enthusiasm. The Democrats do not. Independents are breaking for Romney. And there’s the thing about the yard signs. In Florida a few weeks ago I saw Romney signs, not Obama ones. From Ohio I hear the same. From tony Northwest Washington, D.C., I hear the same. Is it possible this whole thing is playing out before our eyes and we’re not really noticing because we’re too busy looking at data on paper instead of what’s in front of us? Maybe that’s the real distortion of the polls this year: They left us discounting the world around us," - Peggy Noonan, WSJ.

    "In addition to the data, the anecdotal and intangible evidence—from crowd sizes to each side's closing arguments—give the sense that the odds favor Mr. Romney. They do. My prediction: Sometime after the cock crows on the morning of Nov. 7, Mitt Romney will be declared America's 45th president. Let's call it 51%-48%, with Mr. Romney carrying at least 279 Electoral College votes, probably more," - Karl Rove, WSJ.

    "Bottom line: Romney 315, Obama 223. That sounds high for Romney. But he could drop Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and still win the election. Fundamentals," - Michael Barone, Washington Examiner.

    "Both political science and the political polls too often imply a scientific precision that I no longer think actually exists in American politics. I have slowly learned that politics is a lot more art than science than I once believed. Accordingly, what follows is a prediction based on my interpretation of the lay of the land. I know others see it differently--and they could very well be right, and I could be wrong. I think Mitt Romney is likely to win next Tuesday," - Jay Cost, Weekly Standard.

    "Feels like 1980 to me: Same failed president, same crisis-plagued globe, same upbeat GOP nominee written off four years ago who won the key debate, same chance to get the Senate. Romney is the president-elect on Wednesday, with Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, New Hampshire, Iowa, and Colorado. Senate tied 50–50 after Ohio brings in Josh Mandel. Let the rebuilding begin," - Hugh Hewitt, National Review.

    "Despite the pattern of skewed polls, most of the commissioned by the mainstream media, the overall electoral landscape is looking more and more favorable for Romney. But many others in the media project very favorable maps and projections for Obama but those doing so fail to realize or accept how heavily-skewed polls distort any average or analysis that relies on them,"- Dean Chambers, UnSkewedPolls.com.

    "I'm projecting Minnesota to go for Romney. Now, that's the only state in the union, because Mondale held it -- native son Mondale held it when Romney was -- when Reagan was getting 49 states -- the only state that's voted Democratic in nine consecutive elections. But this year, there's a marriage amendment on the ballot that will bring out the evangelicals and I think could make the difference. Romney: 321 Obama: 217," - George Will, Washington Post.

    "Romney wins the Electoral College with room to spare — somewhere around 300 electors. All four marriage votes in the deepest of blue states (Washington, Maryland, Minnesota, and Maine) will be won by traditional-marriage supporters. This will happen even though supporters of same-sex marriage have outspent us by gargantuan amounts. … In Minnesota and Iowa, Mitt Romney will defy expectations and score truly historic wins. A state with longest track record of voting for Democratic presidential candidates — nine election cycles — will vote for a Republican. The marriage amendment will be part of the reason" - Brian S. Brown, National Organization For Marriage.

  6. thomaswong.1986


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    35   2:00pm Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (2)  

    Buster says

    Here comes the landslide…

    yes, it was a heavy negative campaign with lots of false comments..from SEC filings, IRS returns, 47% and what exactly is a Chapter 7 Bankruptcy Romney comments regarding GM. As such Obama doubled down on hoping the voter actually did not read the facts in all these cases.

    More people actually did believe in the Obama's "Shovel Ready" Mountain of BS and Dems piled it high as they could.. this was a Chicago style election hope and forward on the public ignorance.

    Romney failed to take down the Obama BS ... that is all. It was certainly the hope by the GOP the common voter saw the crap and what Obama was about thus the landslide.. Would you vote for a faker, not even close.

  7. Buster


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    36   5:22pm Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Romney failed to take down the Obama BS ... that is all.

    And this statement also sums up perfectly the parallel universe the GOP lives in and why they will continue to lose.

  8. thomaswong.1986


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    37   5:46pm Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Buster says

    parallel universe the GOP lives

    If what Obama and Company was true... where is the IRS/SEC investigation and charges? How about comments about 47%... Sandra Fluke needs more rubbers ?

    So where are those Swiss Bank Accounts so many liberals talk about ...

    This was a smear campaign and it worked for Obama...
    fact is we should have gone Nuke on Obama's ass.. Would have loved to see 3 rounds of Newt and Obama...

    Im sure Chris Mathews would have gone into COMA after that...

  9. iwog


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    38   7:13pm Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Protected  

    marcus says

    It's like me, relative to Rachel Maddow. I consider her far more reality based than say Sean Hannity, but still her bias is strong and at times a ittle over the top for me, but still I sometimes like listening to what she has to say.

    There is bias, strong bias, and outright fraud.

    This year the right wing was guilty of outright fraud concerning the polls. They preached every day that most polls were wrong, that polls were a giant liberal conspiracy to get out the vote, and that the "correct" polls (read bullshit polls) were the ones to listen to.

    This is a rare and thrilling case where reality destroys fantasy. Rasmussen, the most wildly covered polling agency by Newscorp, turned out to be horribly biased and wrong in nearly every case.

    Polls that were supposed to be liberal, like NBC and Daily Kos, turned out to be amazingly accurate.

    Republicans got a good dose of violent truth. Most will react like Shrek. They will lie about reliance on propaganda, they will make excuses, and they will continue in their alternate reality where facts are inconvenient and truth is propaganda.

    Maybe some will wake up. That is my hope.

  10. iwog


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    39   7:16pm Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Buster says

    parallel universe the GOP lives

    If what Obama and Company was true... where is the IRS/SEC investigation and charges? How about comments about 47%... Sandra Fluke needs more rubbers ?

    So where are those Swiss Bank Accounts so many liberals talk about ...

    This was a smear campaign and it worked for Obama...

    fact is we should have gone Nuke on Obama's ass.. Would have loved to see 3 rounds of Newt and Obama...

    Im sure Chris Mathews would have gone into COMA after that...

    Sooooooooo....name something you consider a lie.

    I can list so many lies from the right, my fingers would hurt from all the typing.

    Show us something published by MSNBC that was an outright fraud. Give it your best shot.

  11. Bellingham Bill


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    40   7:21pm Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    He's just getting destroyed by the "Bullshit!" charges so is trying to bounce it all back, that's all.

    Just more bullshit from him.

  12. thomaswong.1986


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    41   10:33pm Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    iwog says

    Sooooooooo....name something you consider a lie.

    I can list so many lies from the right, my fingers would hurt from all the typing.

    Show us something published by MSNBC that was an outright fraud. Give it your best shot.

    name anything Romney did that was illegal as MSNBC stated..

  13. iwog


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    42   10:36pm Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    iwog says

    Sooooooooo....name something you consider a lie.

    I can list so many lies from the right, my fingers would hurt from all the typing.

    Show us something published by MSNBC that was an outright fraud. Give it your best shot.

    name anything Romney did that was illegal as MSNBC stated..

    I asked you a very reasonable question. I didn't expect you to answer it, I expected you to evade it. Thanks for living up to my expectations.

    Shall I try again? You made an assertion. Name something to back it up. Anything.

  14. thomaswong.1986


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    43   10:39pm Sun 11 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Bellingham Bill says

    Just more bullshit from him.

    no bullshit its just false allegations of SEC/IRS violations...

    which cannot be substantiated by MSNBC

    your lack of knowledge in this field doesnt make it bullshit.

  15. CL


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    44   3:03pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    msilenus says

    At first glance, this looks sane. Hispanics are largely Catholic, and tend conservative on social issues, so the "natural ally" line of thought is sound

    I'm thinking this is less so. It's also easy (and convenient!) to think of Catholics as conservative. Most of the Priests I've known have been quite liberal, especially on Social issues.

    I saw some polls after the elections showing 66-70% support among Latinos for abortion and gay marriage.

    I think that it may be watershed that the growing Latino population is also moving leftward, which should seal the fate of the hate-mongering, racist, sexist, financially backward, electorally challenged GOP.

    Plus, Asians are all liberal now. :)

  16. upisdown


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    45   5:42pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Isn't it ironic that the idol of the right wing, Ronald Reagan, gave amnesty to Latinos for the Chamber of Commerce and Farm Bureau, only to have their children vote against the right wing?

  17. iwog


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    46   6:58pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Protected  

    upisdown says

    Isn't it ironic that the idol of the right wing, Ronald Reagan, gave amnesty to Latinos for the Chamber of Commerce and Farm Bureau, only to have their children vote against the right wing?

    The Republicans today are aliens compared to the Republicans in Reagan's time.

    Reagan spoke in favor of the earned income credit, wanted to treat capital gains as normal income, and raised taxes to pay debt. He was also willing to compromise with the Democrats when necessary and wasn't an asshole like Romney was.

    Reagan's failings were in arming Iraq and Iran, invading non-hostile nations like Grenada, (a British commonwealth nation at the time) dropping all our tariffs and quotas, and deregulating all the financial institutions which resulted in the S&L collapse and eventually helped bring on the modern banking crisis. He was also asleep for half of his presidency.

  18. Scagnetti


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    47   7:11pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    upisdown says

    Isn't it ironic that the idol of the right wing, Ronald Reagan, gave amnesty to Latinos for the Chamber of Commerce and Farm Bureau, only to have their children vote against the right wing?

    Different political parties have flip flopped their views all the time throughout history. It is tiresome to hear that Democrats are this and Republicans are that when in reality, both of these parties have and will change their ideology. It's just a matter of time.

    http://www.learnnc.org/lp/media/uploads/2009/03/politics-newnation.jpg

  19. iwog


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    48   7:18pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    I think that chart needs to show on the graph where modern Republicans have left the reservation completely and are in the twilight zone.

    You have to go back to Revolutionary France to find another society in which the poor were taxed while taxes on the richest citizens were essentially abolished.

    Under Ryan's budget, Romney would have paid less than 1%.

  20. Scagnetti


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    49   7:44pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    iwog says

    I think that chart needs to show on the graph where modern Republicans have left the reservation completely and are in the twilight zone.

    You have to go back to Revolutionary France to find another society in which the poor were taxed while taxes on the richest citizens were essentially abolished.

    Under Ryan's budget, Romney would have paid less than 1%.

    Yes, very possible. Conversely, are the democrats not also shuttling us toward a totalitarian government? How are the democrats protecting liberty?

    P.S. I looked for the same type of graph on modern politics but really couldn't find much. I could write about it, but it would be lengthy.

  21. iwog


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    50   7:52pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Scagnetti says

    Yes, very possible. Conversely, are the democrats not also shuttling us toward a totalitarian government? How are the democrats protecting liberty?

    P.S. I looked for the same type of graph on modern politics but really couldn't find much. I could write about it, but it would be lengthy.

    Nothing the Democrats are doing is taking towards a totalitarian government.

    Just the opposite. Democrats are wielding so little power now that they can't even get a budget passed. By finally playing hardball, Obama MIGHT actually get something done this time.

  22. Dan8267


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    51   7:54pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    edvard2 says

    Will Republicans change their tune given the shift in demographics?

    Will a whore fake an orgasm while saying how awesome your dick is?

  23. Scagnetti


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    52   8:07pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    iwog says

    Nothing the Democrats are doing is taking towards a totalitarian government.

    Did Obama renew the patriot act instead of repealing it?
    What about closing Guantanamo Bay?
    Passing the NDAA?
    HR 347?

  24. iwog


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    53   8:20pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Scagnetti says

    iwog says

    Nothing the Democrats are doing is taking towards a totalitarian government.

    Did Obama renew the patriot act instead of repealing it?

    What about closing Guantanamo Bay?

    Passing the NDAA?

    HR 347?

    A totalitarian government is not what a government can do, it's what it does.

    Technically the queen of England has absolute power over the UK and the commonwealth nations. Technically she could have anyone in the "empire" executed at any time.

    While the House of Lords had their power severely limited by law, the absolute authority of the monarch has never been challenged.

    Does this mean the UK is a totalitarian monarchy? OR is it clear to everyone that any exercise of this power will end badly so the UK and the commonwealth remain a free society?

  25. APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch


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    54   8:34pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The GOP needs to double down on rape, maybe advocate a constitutional amendment requiring registered voters to be certified rapists.

  26. Scagnetti


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    55   8:47pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    iwog says

    A totalitarian government is not what a government can do, it's what it does.

    I believe that our government and individuals, should not aggress against anyone's person or against their property. A government based on liberty would never pass those authoritarian laws. The patriot act, Guantanamo bay, NDAA, and HR 347 all violate individuals civil liberties. Claiming you are a Democrat or Republican doesn't matter. You may as well say you are part of the Gambino family and not the Gennevessie's!

    iwog says

    OR is it clear to everyone that any exercise of this power will end badly so the UK and the commonwealth remain a free society?

    Are you suggesting we haven't employed the use of the above laws? We have and ARE exercising this power.

    The problem is this. The people give government certain powers in critical times to be used temporarily and with good reason. Although, what happens, is government uses these granted powers ALL the time and with NO reason! Government power is ever encroaching on our private lives and liberties. They won't use it wisely like you say, nor will they give it back, we have to take it back. We should have never gave it to them in the first place!

  27. Bellingham Bill


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    56   8:49pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    iwog says

    A totalitarian government is not what a government can do, it's what it does.

    Plus Dem votes on those Republican bills were defensive, to avoid being demagogued as soft on terrorism. PATRIOT renewal, NDAA, and 347 all came out of the Republican-led House.

    Just like the Democrat AUMF vote in late 2002, Senate Dems pussied out to avoid being seen as weak on defense or terrorism by their constituents.

    Really tough making a vote that can be so easily twisted against you and boot you out of Congress permanently.

    "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

  28. Bellingham Bill


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    57   8:51pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Scagnetti says

    They won't use it wisely like you say, nor will they give it back, we have to take it back.

    LOL. A people get the Republic they deserve. To get a better government, we need a better electorate first. After your revolution you're going to be stuck with the same stupid (er, "low information") electorate.

  29. Scagnetti


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    58   8:59pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bellingham Bill says

    Plus Dem votes on those Republican bills were defensive, to avoid being demagogued as soft on terrorism.

    Bellingham Bill says

    Just like the Democrat AUMF vote in late 2002, Senate Dems pussied out to avoid being seen as weak on defense or terrorism by their constituents.

    Really tough making a vote that can be so easily twisted against you and boot you out of Congress permanently.

    Here is part of the problem....politicians and people in general need to stick to their principles. I'm tired of this "political darwinism" crap that says over time (generations) we can make a difference. It leads to defensive posturing to keep gains while you slowly lose.

  30. Bellingham Bill


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    59   9:00pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Scagnetti says

    Did Obama renew the patriot act instead of repealing it?
    What about closing Guantanamo Bay?
    Passing the NDAA?
    HR 347?

    Obama is not a Roman Tribune and thus cannot "repeal" laws. Though he does have leeway as head of the Executive in how to enforce them.

    What about closing Guantanamo?

    "In a court filing in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, government lawyers said the names of detainees "no longer warrant protection." They had been blocked from public disclosure under a 2009 court order requested by the government.

    "The filing includes 55 names out of the 167 detainees currently at the prison.

    "President Barack Obama on his second day in office issued an order to close the prison by January 2010 and set up a task force to review the status of prisoners there. The president's plans soon ran into opposition from Congress, where lawmakers raised security concerns, and the target date wasn't met."

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444032404578010510465382582.html

    The problem with releasing anyone is that if any released person does something bad, that's some bad egg-on-face. Conservatism is the order of the day.

    NDAA was bundled in a defense spending bill and since Obama needed FL and VA to win that wasn't a hill worth dying on. He issued the appropriate "signing statements" about the stuff he didn't like in it and wasn't going to utilize. The vote itself sailed through Congress with overwhelming majorities.

    HR 347 was unanimous in the Senate and 399-3 in the House.

  31. Bellingham Bill


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    60   9:01pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Scagnetti says

    politicians and people in general need to stick to their principles.

    yeah, well, principles and $1.35 will buy you a coffee at Starbucks.

    30,000 libertarian voters in Montana picked principle over tactics and now they have Tester as their Senator still. Tea Party extremists in Indiana booted Lugar for a Democrat, too.

  32. Scagnetti


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    61   9:06pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bellingham Bill says

    Obama is not a Roman Tribune and thus cannot "repeal" laws.

    Sorry, you are correct. He can not repeal a law. What he could have done, is to not sign the 4 year extension of the patriot act. He could have done that!

  33. Bellingham Bill


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    62   9:15pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Scagnetti says

    He could have done that!

    It passed 77-23 in the Senate and 250-153 in the House, veto-proof majorities. Dems were 54-122 against in the House.

    Aside from all the BS about PATRIOT, I've never had any problems with the powers it allows law enforcement. I only object to the name, really.

  34. Dan8267


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    63   9:19pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    iwog says

    A totalitarian government is not what a government can do, it's what it does.

    Our government does torture. It does kill innocent civilians including children. Our government does use rape as a interrogation tool.

    A government can be as evil as the Nazis towards some people while not being evil at all towards others. Some people in the government can do as much harm as Hitler while others attempt to make the world a better place.

    Our government certainly has both good and great evil in it. But it's the evil part that's gaining the upper hand.

  35. Dan8267


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    64   9:28pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  
  36. Scagnetti


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    65   9:29pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bellingham Bill says

    Scagnetti says

    He could have done that!

    It passed 77-23 in the Senate and 250-153 in the House, veto-proof majorities. Dems were 54-122 against in the House.

    Aside from all the BS about PATRIOT, I've never had any problems with the powers it allows law enforcement. I only object to the name, really.

    From your numbers, there wasn't a 2/3 majority in the house to overturn a presidential veto. Regardless, Obama signed it, he agrees with it. If he didn't agree with it, he shouldn't have signed it! Same with the NDAA and HR 347.

  37. iwog


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    66   9:48pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    A little history lesson here:

    Totalitarian governments arise because citizens demand it. Since I brought up the UK, Cromwell is an excellent example. Even Hitler won an election and after he started his reign of terror, the people supported it as long as they were winning.

    An American dictatorship is not going to come from the top down, it will com from the bottom up and it certainly isn't going to come from Democrats.

  38. Scagnetti


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    67   11:45pm Fri 16 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    iwog says

    Totalitarian governments arise because citizens demand it.

    Disagree completely.

    iwog says

    Even Hitler won an election and after he started his reign of terror

    What were the conditions under which he came to power? Why did the German people want a change? Could it be that the Versailles treaty from WWI completely crippled their economy? Hitler proposed to stop paying reparations and to get out of the league of nations, which in effect would elevate the German people out of poverty. The Germans saw a sliver of light and took it because it beat the darkness. The Nazis came out of opression, not out of complete free will like you claim.

    iwog says

    An American dictatorship is not going to come from the top down, it will com from the bottom up and it certainly isn't going to come from Democrats.

    I don't see a grass roots movement in support for the Patriot Act, NDAA, and HR347. Where were the masses that were fighting for this? This was governments doing, not the peoples.

  39. Bellingham Bill


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    68   9:58pm Sun 18 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    Scagnetti says

    Disagree completely.

    thanks for sharing, LOL

    Scagnetti says

    Could it be that the Versailles treaty from WWI completely crippled their economy?

    No, the Dawes Plan and Young Plan sorta fixed that. The problems came in 1929 with the global seizure of credit and trade.

    Scagnetti says

    Hitler proposed to stop paying reparations and to get out of the league of nations, which in effect would elevate the German people out of poverty.

    The German people were far from "poverty". Their economy was just fucked and needed velocity of Keynesian redistribution. Once industry got going again velocity picked up.

    A little known thing is that Hitler's immediate predecessor -- von Schleicher -- kicked off a lot of shovel-ready public works and had he been able to stay in power in 1933 he could have greatly benefited from the economic pick-up this effected.

    Scagnetti says

    The Nazis came out of opression, not out of complete free will like you claim.

    What they came out of was chaos and a bitterly divided electorate, 10% red, 30% left, 20% centrist and 40% radical right.

    The centrists thought they could control the radical right, but failed in 1933. The Nazis first eliminated the reds, then connived with the centrists to eliminate the left (with the Enabling Act). And with that, the totalitarian dictatorship and secret police state was established.

    We're probably going that way, too. 2025 is my guess. The result won't look like Germany 1935, but it will rhyme.

    Scagnetti says

    I don't see a grass roots movement in support for the Patriot Act, NDAA, and HR347. Where were the masses that were fighting for this?

    what you don't understand is basic game theory and the adversarial nature of politics. PATRIOT is about not having another 9/11 happen and FBI insiders then leak that they "coulda caught that terrorists" had Congress not failed to give them the tools they had asked for.

    Same thing with NDAA. Clinton caught shit from the Republicans for not blowing up Osama when he was "on a silver platter":

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/75807.html

    That's politics, and it works because we have a very stupid electorate.

  40. thunderlips11


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    69   3:07pm Mon 19 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Romney lost because his voters were composed of aging, dwindling groups; Obama won because his voting demographic was more in line with middle aged and young adult voters.

    In fact, Romney's voting groups are even more conservative than old farts generally.

    We had peak Evangelical Right Winger around 2000. It would have faded much faster but was kept alive by the GWOT for a few years longer. It's over. The number of college educated people is sky high, skepticism over superstition is growing, and the Jesus Freaks of the 60s and 70s, who grew up on Sercy, Arkansas A/V bullshit and brought the Reagan bullshit are now wearing Depends or will be shortly.

    As soon as we have a few million more hip replacements, perhaps by the next Presidential Election, the country will turn solidly to the left.

    The real challenge is to make sure the Left turn gets channeled into productive "Salt of the Earth" issues like minimum wages and taxation, and doesn't get lost in the fruitless disputes (and misuse of the term) about "Privilege" and the Oppression Olympics(tm) ("Transgendered people can't use Womyn's safe space bathrooms, that's just for Womyn born Womyn!" "Why, you bigoted RadFem!" "Chinaman is a derogatory term!" "Like Scotsman? Irishman? Frenchman?" etc.).

    Bellingham Bill says

    What they came out of was chaos and a bitterly divided electorate, 10% red, 30% left, 20% centrist and 40% radical right.

    Word.

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