How to fix education?


By Peter P   Follow   Fri, 9 Nov 2012, 11:36pm   125,696 views   92 comments
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Just some ideas...

1) Encourage at least one parent to stay home and raise the kids
2) Dissociate school assignment from residency
3) Teach kids to find passions, ask questions, and get answers with help
4) De-emphasize higher education for all except specialized areas

What else? Throwing money at a failure will only turn it into an expensive failure.

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  1. mell


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    53   10:19am Sun 2 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    Then why are they still there?

    I think by design. Basically to stay with mediocrity a system was designed where pay is not that great but benefits are outstanding, so you can muddle through the system without skills relatively protected and just have to hang in there until you can retire. If we had scratched those guaranteed pensions long ago and made it easier to lay off teachers we would have had ample money to incentivise good teachers and focus on their performance. I know quite a few teachers who argue the same, i.e. that there's too much dead weight kept in the system keeping the salaries low.

  2. Peter P


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    54   11:04am Sun 2 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    I think the muddling-through mentality is also prevalent in most sufficiently large organizations.

  3. marcus


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    55   11:04pm Sun 2 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    Why does one need to fight for "fair" compensation? If teachers think they are paid too little they should quit and do something else.

    Okay, then how is compensation for an important public service job such as teachers determined ? Is it just pay as little as possible ? This isn't a for profit situation where maximization of profits will naturally lead to an appropriate market determined pay for employees. The profit, is having a productive and intelligent citizenry in the future.

    IT's really funny when you think about it. The plutocracy wants to pay less for teachers, and they supposedly want the quality of public education to go up.

    If only the unions would get out of the way, we would be able to get so much more for our money in the way of teachers.

  4. Peter P


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    56   11:42pm Sun 2 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    marcus says

    Okay, then how is compensation for an important public service job such as teachers determined ?

    Change all contracts to at-will and allow pay be determined on a case-by-case basis. Also, let parents choose any school they want and let school districts levy a premium or surcharge.

    The invisible hand will set the price.

    This isn't a for profit situation where maximization of profits will naturally lead to an appropriate market determined pay for employees. The profit, is having a progduntive and intelligent citizenry in the future.

    Yes. This is why education ought to be privatized as much as possible.

  5. michaelsch


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    57   3:37pm Mon 3 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    1) Encourage at least one parent to stay home and raise the kids

    How may this be done? At any rate it may work only with about the top 10% of the income.

    There is a way to increase this percentage. For example, by an education system that is free only for top students (like for 25-20% of them) and for the rest it would be partially covered by vouchers payable to schools as well as to homeschooling parents. That would be a good incentive for both parents and students. Also, it would be a good way of rewarding success rather than rewarding failure the way it works today.

    Peter P says

    2) Dissociate school assignment from residency

    A great idea, but impossible because it will kill the housing fortresses. Too many of the "upper middle class" will fight to death against it.

    Peter P says

    3) Teach kids to find passions, ask questions, and get answers with help

    Easier said than done. We have a huge problem here especially in teaching mathematics, which we practically destroyed during the last half a century. All they teach today is knowing facts, remembering formulas and in the best case understanding how to use these formulas to make certain calculations. There is absolutely no teaching of how math research is done, neither how to prove in mathematics nor how mathematics are built.
    However, it's practically impossible to fix now, since all teachers we have today are themselves victims of this education.
    One way to do something about it could be promoting international problem solving competitions and highly rewarding students who succeed in them.
    Peter P says

    4) De-emphasize higher education for all except specialized areas

    College degree today is an equivalent of a high school diploma forty years ago. The idea that higher education is for training scientists has moved to post-graduate studies. As the result we got a huge waste of four most productive years our youth paid for a chance of getting a dissent job.

    But how this may be undone? You can't force corporations to hire professionals w/o college degree even in cases the degree is irrelevant to the job.Peter P says

    Throwing money at a failure will only turn it into an expensive failure.

    Right, how about throwing money at very expensive failure? You surely know the answer: it supports the "economy".

  6. michaelsch


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    58   3:53pm Mon 3 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    But I think at least 50% of all families should not have kids.

    This is one thing I strongly disagree on. Having most of families childless you can't asure a reproductive fertility rate, which is about 2.1 children per woman, all women counted, including infertile, lesbian, you name it.

    This is a huge problem for most of "developed" countries, they can't survive without importing population and a lot of it.

  7. michaelsch


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    59   4:00pm Mon 3 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    theoakman says

    Only the smart students with motivation are capable of teaching themselves effectively. The rest need a teacher.

    Or maybe they need to pay for their education? This alone will make many students smarter and motivated.
    Are you sure the society benefits in any way from dragging a stupid student with no motivation thru the high school?

  8. Nobody


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    60   10:11am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    Parents should invest time and money in their own kids. Those who cannot do so should not have kids.

    Peter,

    So in your view, only a rich people should have kids?

    Peter P says

    Equality is futile. Perhaps the society should discourage uncaring parents from having kids.

    I actually think the federal government *should* use taxpayer money to pay for free condoms and abortions.

    This statement is not consistent with your first statement. Is it uncaring or poor family who can't invest time and MONEY? Which one is it? You must be a naive immature fellow to think that everyone who has kids should be able to afford their kids proper education. You must be the product of education budget cut. I hope most people care enough for people like you to get better education.

    In a mean time, what would you do about the EXITING kids whose parents can't invest their time and MONEY? What do you do about the reality? Just cut the tax and budget for school?

  9. Peter P


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    61   10:14am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Nobody says

    Peter,

    So in your view, only a rich people should have kids?

    I think only people with time and money should have kids. Honestly, I cannot afford kids.

    It is a lifestyle decision too. I can't spare time nor money on this negative cashflow.

  10. Nobody


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    62   10:20am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    I think only people with time and money should have kids. Honestly, I cannot afford kids.

    That is your opinion. You have no solution for the current problem. I have just edited more.

  11. Peter P


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    63   10:22am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    BTW, the costs of raising kids are kept unnecessarily high:

    1. cost of child-care (or even higher opportunity cost)
    2. cost of baby-sitters (or bad quality of life)
    3. cost of education (school district or private school)
    4. too much regulations (e.g. car seats, etc)

  12. Peter P


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    64   10:26am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Nobody says

    In a mean time, what would you do about the EXITING kids whose parents can't invest their time and MONEY? What do you do about the reality? Just cut the tax and budget for school?

    They are mistakes. Some of them can be inspired enough to do good stuff. The rest will have to be handled by LE.

    For the long term, cap-and-trade birth permits can solve a lot of problems. From "AGW" to overcrowding to world hunger.

  13. Nobody


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    65   10:28am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    BTW, the costs of raising kids are kept unnecessarily high:

    So what? We are living in a system where the rich is in a position to milk more money from the middle class. Didn't you know that by now?

    Your short-sightedness amazes me. You are not offering any solution. The thread is "How to fix education?" Not screw those kids whose parents happened to be poor.

  14. Nobody


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    66   10:30am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    They are mistakes. Some of them can be inspired enough to do good stuff. The rest will have to be handled by LE.

    Your ignorance amazes me. Do you even know how much it would cost tax payers to execute? It is in our best interest to give right education to the kids, so they can be the contributing member of the society, not a criminal.

  15. Peter P


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    67   10:34am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Fixing education can mean that we cannot have a one-size-fits-all solution. Education does not have to be an extension of the all-people-are-equal-but-some-are-more-equal-than-others worldview.

    If we are honest to ourselves, equality cannot be forced and it needs not be manifested in education.

    A lot of problems in education come from the reality that capable families are less incentivized to have kids than incapable families. This means it will only get worse.

  16. Peter P


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    68   10:37am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Nobody says

    Do you even know how much it would cost tax payers to execute? It is in our best interest to give right education to the kids, so they can be the contributing member of the society, not a criminal.

    We need prison reform too. Most criminals should not be incarcerated.

    For the same effectiveness, it can be cheaper to increase enforcement and reduce punishment.

    And you think the right education can necessarily make kids contributing members of the society? Family upbringing is even more important.

  17. Peter P


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    69   10:42am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Look, if we can reduce childbirths from these two groups the world will be much better:

    1. kids produced because the parents failed to use contraception
    2. kids produced because the parents thought they were expected to have kids

    Only people who want kids should have kids. Then they can make time and money for the kids. I love food, so I have expensive 3-hour dinners. Lifestyle choice.

  18. Peter P


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    70   11:08am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    michaelsch says

    This is a huge problem for most of "developed" countries, they can't survive without importing population and a lot of it.

    Importing population is arguably better because you get a self-selected group of people who want to do better. With welfare reform, it is possible to open the borders.

  19. michaelsch


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    71   11:10am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    Look, if we can reduce childbirths from these two groups the world will be much better:

    1. kids produced because the parents failed to use contraception

    2. kids produced because the parents thought they were expected to have kids

    Only people who want kids should have kids. Then they can make time and money for the kids. I love food, so I have expensive 3-hour dinners. Lifestyle choice.

    It simply does not work this way. Europe has implemented this and now it's in the worst crisis. The demographic one, which is worse than the Euro crisis and anything else they messed up. They have ended up with a huge senile population and nobody to support them.

  20. Peter P


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    72   11:13am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Europe needs to fix its entitlement system and open its borders.

    Unwanted children are more likely to be a net liability when they grow up.

    Defined-benefit retirement systems are fragile and are unsustainable.

  21. michaelsch


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    73   11:23am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    Unwanted children are more likely to be a net liability when they grow up.

    Well, you obviously have no kids. In 99% of the cases unwanted children turn to very much wanted as the parents get acquainted with them, and vise versa, some parents who wanted kids, often turn into disappointed bad parents.
    This is one thing you no very little about untill you get into it.Peter P says

    Europe needs to fix its entitlement system and open its borders.

    It has nothing to do with the entitlement system. Their entitlement system is about redistributing wealth. Their problem is that their society can't be productive. BTW, the worst problem is in ex-cathoilic countries like Italy and Spain.

  22. Peter P


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    74   11:29am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    michaelsch says

    In 99% of the cases unwanted children turn to very much wanted as the parents get acquainted with them, and vise versa, some parents who wanted kids, often turn into disappointed bad parents.

    I have friends who truly want kids. They jump through many hoops just to have a child.

    I also know people who have kids because their parents had kids. They somehow convinced themselves that kids are the greatest thing on earth. (Escalation of commitment?)

    Kind of like homeownership.

  23. Peter P


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    75   11:30am Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    michaelsch says

    Their entitlement system is about redistributing wealth. Their problem is that their society can't be productive.

    You answered your own question.

    A government has no business re-distributing wealth. It ought to safe-guard the market against excessive rent-seeking instead.

  24. Nobody


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    76   7:29pm Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    And you think the right education can necessarily make kids contributing members of the society? Family upbringing is even more important.

    Well, you are the proof of what I am saying.

    Are you this ignorant? Without education, even the right upbringing just goes to hell. I suppose in your own little world, the right upbringing is all you need. For the rest of the world, the education is the most integral part of success.

    Peter P says

    Fixing education can mean that we cannot have a one-size-fits-all solution.

    Unfortunately, we have to. Don't you know this by now? I am amazed how immature your thought process is. Are you a stay home jr. high school student?

  25. Nobody


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    77   7:29pm Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    michaelsch says

    Well, you obviously have no kids.

    Micheal,

    How can a kid have a child?

  26. Peter P


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    78   8:12pm Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    Nobody says

    Unfortunately, we have to. Don't you know this by now? I am amazed how immature your thought process is. Are you a stay home jr. high school student?

    I don't know... nothing is more important than questioning the system. Education sure as hell will NOT do that. Schools focus too much on practical knowledge and they do not teach kids the need to design their own value system.

  27. Peter P


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    79   8:44pm Tue 4 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Nobody says

    How can a kid have a child?

    LOL, I wish I were a kid. Time is a non-renewable resource. I wish I have more.

  28. justme


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    80   8:55am Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    It is Unamerican to model our programs on successful programs from Europe. That's communistic and unpatriotic. If we learn from other countries, it would imply that we're not the greatest country in the world. And maintaining that delusion is more important than solving our problems.

    APPLAUSE !!

  29. justme


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    81   9:01am Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    FortWayne says

    - Get rid of unions.
    - Allow teachers to be graded on performance.
    - Give parents a voucher for 100% of public education costs and let them pick any school they want, forcing public schools to compete for children, not be forced into one based on their location.

    Your cluelessness is astounding. How did you get the bizarre idea that student failure is because of the teachers? Student failure is every bit as much about bad students and bad parents as it is about bad teachers.

    Yes, there exists some bad teachers, but only the the totally blind believe that bad teachers is THE problem.

    FortWayne says

    Competition drives capitalism, let the competition be.

    Perhaps we should be grading parents and students as much as we grade teachers? You want competition among teachers, how about competition among bad parents and bad students?

  30. Bap33


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    82   10:18am Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)  

    justme says

    You want competition among teachers, how about competition among bad parents and bad students?

    Would you agree that most bad students come from bad/lazy parents?
    Would you agree that most bad parents are a result of the social conditions brought on by welfare (in all of it's forms) and the erosion of the family unit?

    Parents did not dream up the social engineering crap that is laced into education these days. Parents did not dream up the "stop spanking kids" nonsence. Parents did not stop prayer for the start of each school day. Parents did not stop the pledge. Parents did not dream up a system that keeps punks in schools instead of expelled. Parents did not dream up the creation of these quazi-prison style schools where the bad kids go to avoid the school system losing the per-child-funding. Parents, good parents, have had to put up with the erosion of the education system. Parents, good parents, are not the problem. Students do not raise themselves.

    Going to school for 4 extra years, or 6 or 10 or 50 extra years, after HS, DOES NOT MAKE ANYONE A "GOOD" TEACHER!!! It simply meets the qualifications needed by a STUDENT, that were dreamt up by other HIGHLY EDUCATED STUDENTS, to fill the position at a school called "teacher". The entire education system focus is on being a friggin STUDENT. A student of the system, the belief system, the desired outcome, the culture, the educational complex .... all they want are more STUDENTS. There is no desire to find a true educator. A person who reaches into the soul of a young person and stirs a desire to know something, and then retain what they are exposed to for a lifetime.

    Yes, parents and students have a roll. but the truth is, the Big Education Complex is what is wrong with America's HS grads. Bad students are not grads, they are pre-homeless or pre-prisoners.

  31. justme


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    83   11:46am Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    Would you agree that most bad students come from bad/lazy parents?

    There is some correlation, but it is not 1.0

    Bap33 says

    Would you agree that most bad parents are a result of the social conditions brought on by welfare (in all of it's forms)

    Absolutely NOT. I'd rather say that bad parenting correlates strongly with the introduction of the infamous idiot-box, also known as TELEVISION. TV makes you stupid and lazy.

    Bap33 says

    and the erosion of the family unit?

    To some extent. There is a correlation.

  32. justme


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    84   11:47am Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    Parents did not dream up the social engineering crap that is laced into education these days.

    Such as what? Please be specific.

  33. justme


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    85   11:56am Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    I have a question: Are there youtube videos that demonstrate the differences between a good and a bad teacher?

    I acknowledge that SOME bad teachers exist, and that it would be great if they were all great teachers, but WHAT EXACTLY is it that bad teachers do that make them bad teachers? Please discuss!

    My main impression of a bad teacher (from TV news programs, no less) is an excessively talkative woman that prattles non-stop but with very little actual information coming out of her mouth. It seems that there is not enough real information for the kids to absorb, too much spoon-feeding, and not enough quiet time during a lecture to let the information sink in with all the prattling going on(***). Fewer words, more content, more reflection is what is needed.

    Am I on the right track, or totally out in the weeds? Please educate me :).

    (***) Come to think of it, this style of "communicating" is also prevalent on TV. The other day I watched a clip of Lauren Lyster from a program called Capital Account. She is interviewing Sheila Bair, who I think would make an excellent teacher, whereas Lauren Lyster would drive me absolutely crazy if I had to listen to her even just one day. Scroll forward to the portion where she is talking with Sheila Bair for contrast. Also contrast Lauren Lyster with Charlie Rose, who I think also could be an excellent teacher, someone who teaches people to THINK for themselves rather than just filling space and time with words.

    Lest I be accused of being sexist, there are lots of men on TV that are every bit as bad as Lauren Lyster. Especially the "but let me ask you this" crowd on CNBC and Fox.

  34. Bap33


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    86   12:13pm Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    from a personal point of view, and life experience, and having raised (and raising) kids, I can honestly say that there is a difference in the way male children learn, verse female children. And type-a, vs type-b is different too. I submit that kids should be seperated by sex and personality type, and that may create a classroom envirnoment that allows a teacher to find a "teaching method" that is most effective. The seperation by sex is going on for my daughter's 5th grade class right now, just as a pilot study, and the results show huge improvements for both sexes and the teachers love it.

    You are correct about the TV. And the internet. And most other forms of idle time tune-out entertainment. I dont think reading a book is as bad, unless it is a bad book. lol

  35. justme


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    87   12:26pm Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    So it is not the teachers fault, then? But what are the kids going to do when they get out in real life and may have to work with people that do not adhere to their "style"?

    On that same note, have you ever heard a parent utter the phrase "my kid just has a different learning style". I don't buy into that concept. Kids need to learn how to learn. Some *small* adjustments in "style" is ok, but the idea that every kid needs a different algorithm is just a smoke screen for the kid being stupid, lazy, misbehaving or all three. And the parents as well.

    And seriously, we are going to segregate society by "personality type"? I don't think that is a good idea at all.

  36. Nobody


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    88   1:09pm Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    LOL, I wish I were a kid. Time is a non-renewable resource. I wish I have more.

    How can I tell your physical age? I can only infer your other age from reading your posts.

  37. justme


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    89   1:12pm Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Okay, so no examples at all of what bad teachers do that is wrong?

    I mean, come on, we can't label people as bad teachers without SOME sort of indication about what exactly they are doing wrong.

  38. justme


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    90   1:25pm Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    The invisible hand will set the price.

    Teachers are not tomatoes in a bin in the market. The free market does NOT always work.

    If it was a free market, teachers would also have the right to reject and accept each kid. If the system worked that way, I think teacher pay would soar high above where it is now.

  39. justme


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    91   1:32pm Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Nobody says

    How can I tell your physical age? I can only infer your other age from reading your posts.

    Come to Coffee Hour? Peter P was there last time.

  40. Peter P


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    92   1:56pm Thu 6 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    justme says

    Nobody says

    How can I tell your physical age? I can only infer your other age from reading your posts.

    Come to Coffee Hour? Peter P was there last time.

    Not this Saturday though.

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