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Republicans are irrational


By tovarichpeter   Follow   Fri, 23 Nov 2012, 9:27am   1,484 views   29 comments
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/23/opinion/krugman-grand-old-planet.html?hp&_r=0&gwh=CE91460BDFDADC9173635EAD3E6CDE72

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  1. iwog


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    1   12:09am Sat 24 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Protected  

    Whenever you have a cult that demands complete obedience, you'll end up with more and more radical nuts in power.

    Arlen Spector had the bad taste to vote with the Democrats on one or two issues. Olympia Snowe accidentally voted for the stimulus bill. Both were reliably conservative votes in congress on almost everything else.

    Both were crucified and publicly humiliated through television ads paid for by their own party and universally despised by their own electorate. Both are now gone from office.

    Time and time again we are reminded that Republicans are socially sick. They have long past stopped playing well with others, and now slash and burn anything that goes against the party line.

    Some think I'm too harsh and that both parties are the same. They aren't. Democrats are a herd of cats who tolerate pretty much anything from conservatives to socialists in their party. They work for the common good and compromise.

    Republicans are single-minded goose-stepping zealots just waiting for a charismatic leader to tell them what to think and when to start loading their firearms. I'm not overstating it in the least.

  2. dodgerfanjohn


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    2   6:58pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  
  3. Entitlemented


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    3   7:25pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    On Republicans being Irrational:http://www.nytimes.com/1998/08/02/business/l-banks-obligations-176362.html

    Whos irrational?

  4. mell


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    4   7:31pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    iwog says

    Some think I'm too harsh and that both parties are the same. They aren't. Democrats are a herd of cats who tolerate pretty much anything from conservatives to socialists in their party. They work for the common good and compromise.

    Republicans are single-minded goose-stepping zealots just waiting for a charismatic leader to tell them what to think and when to start loading their firearms. I'm not overstating it in the least.

    I agree in the case of people like Rubio or others, but there are plenty of republicans who are trying to change that course. And let's not forget that Krugman shits silly economic voodoo stuff out of his mouth incessantly which unfortunately has real-life consequences, so he really doesn't have much business in calling out other people on belief based constructs.

  5. Entitlemented


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    5   7:35pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The Economist magazine wrote in 2005 that the worldwide boom in residential real estate prices in this decade was “the biggest bubble in history“. The Economist noted that – at that time – the total value of residential property in developed countries rose by more than $30 trillion, to $70 trillion, over the past five years – an increase equal to the combined GDPs of those nations.

    $30 Trillion Dollar Malinvestment oversaw by 100% Democrats "Do not have a crises"

    Iraq war is 1/100th of a Democrat Ponzi Scheme. T

    This is not a debate, this is fact.

  6. Bellingham Bill


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    6   7:40pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    mell says

    And let's not forget that Krugman shits silly economic voodoo stuff out of his mouth incessantly

    and . . . you're utterly wrong about that.

    I have my differences with Krugman -- I don't think he gives Steve Keen's thesis enough weight -- but he does understand the systemic imbalances this nation is facing.

    The funny thing is that Krugman is really a center-right economist, yet the far right thinks he's an incarnation of Marx.

    The deal with Krugman is that he's one of the few public intellectuals willing to go toe to toe with the conservative power structure in this country.

    National Review, WSJ OpEd, Bloomberg, AEI, Cato, Manhattan Institute, Heritage, US Chamber of Commerce, AIPAC, Hoover Institute, GMU, Reason Foundation, Federalist Society, ALEC, Heartland Institute, and many more vs. little poor Krugman, virtually alone.

  7. Bellingham Bill


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    7   7:42pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Entitlemented says

    Malinvestment oversaw by 100% Democrats

    Uh, Republicans ran DC 1995-2006. Try harder to leave your bubble. You're not a Darrell sockpuppet by any chance?

  8. mell


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    8   7:55pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bellingham Bill says

    The deal with Krugman is that he's one of the few public intellectuals willing to go toe to toe with the conservative power structure in this country.

    The recent election didn't look like a conservative power structure to me. But anybody using voodoo maths to justify deficit spending is in the same boat as the banks and their bribed politicians ruining this country, putting future generations into debt, and just giving gifts to the poor in exchange for their vote with money stolen from someone else which is always the middle-class, He is part of the problem, we need more manufactures and less bs talkers, his salary could be used to feed quite a few hungry mouths. I'd prefer if he really were a hardcore marxist advocating 90% tax on the 1% - I still wouldn't agree with him but at least the money would be stolen from people who can afford it and benefit form the current status quo of massive deficit spending.

  9. Bellingham Bill


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    9   9:05pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    mell says

    But anybody using voodoo maths

    you realize that this is just you spouting untethered bullshit here, right?

    I happen to agree that Krugman doesn't appear to really get the debt-dependency nature of our current economy. But he does marshall the facts on his side and I suspect that this ignorance is feigned since policy-wise all we have is "more debt!" to fix things.

    And he does regularly nail the foibles of the modern American conservatism movement to the fucking wall.

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/20/how-we-know-the-earth-is-old/

    Like nobody else in the media, really.

    The core imbalance of our economy is that the top 5% collect one third of the national income, and this disparity has been rising since the 1970s.

    If you do not focus on redressing this imbalance you do not understand the problem, and are probably contributing towards making the imbalance worse.

    hell, the modern conservative movement doesn't even think this imbalance is a problem. Works for them! Got mine, get yours!

  10. Entitlemented


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    10   9:43pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dems denied issues in 2002-2005.

    On Record:

    Republicans pointed out over and over that there were irregularities. Franklin Raines, denied, but was eventually indicted, and resigned.

    This happened. This loose lending caused the housing crisis. CRAs likely biggest issues were 1) removal of 20% down requirements, 2) Various subprime and stated loans.

    The people who elected Obama are the same people who said in 2003 "there is no housing bubble". How easy we forget.............

  11. iwog


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    11   9:54pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    It's too bad the Democrats had the White House, the House of Representatives, the Senate, and the courts in 2005 otherwise there wouldn't have been a banking crisis.

    Oh wait.................

  12. iwog


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    12   9:57pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    mell says

    I agree in the case of people like Rubio or others, but there are plenty of republicans who are trying to change that course

    I have yet to see a Republican who refuses to kiss Rush Limbaugh's ring. The entire Republican caucus is a clown show and the written pledge to never raise taxes is not only an abomination to government process, but a violation of the oath of office. Most Republicans have signed it although a few are now beginning to wake up.

    mell says

    And let's not forget that Krugman shits silly economic voodoo stuff out of his mouth incessantly which unfortunately has real-life consequences, so he really doesn't have much business in calling out other people on belief based constructs.

    Krugman is dead on accurate most of the time and this country would be very wise to set policy based on his recommendations.

  13. Entitlemented


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    13   10:08pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    There was a Financial Commission formed to determine the causes of the financial crises. One of the FCIC commisioners had a report that showed that nearly 50% of the US 55 Million loans had quality issues: http://www.aei.org/files/2010/03/15/PintoFCICTriggers.pdf

    This report was before the FCIC, but was not distributed to the other members.

    It shows clear causation of CRA and FHA loans. Nearly everyone acknowleges that lower underwriting standards and gaming the system caused this.

    Its the government meddling in housing starts, "loan innovation" and low credit loans that was the fuze of the entire housing bubble.

  14. iwog


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    14   10:17pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Entitlemented says

    It shows clear causation of CRA and FHA loans. Nearly everyone acknowleges that lower underwriting standards and gaming the system caused this.

    Its the government meddling in housing starts, "loan innovation" and low credit loans that was the fuze of the entire housing bubble.

    Bullshit and the report doesn't say what you says it does. You're lying if you think "nearly everyone" believes the source of the mortgage collapse was CRA and FHA, in fact not even the federal reserve believes this.

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/feds/2011/201136/index.html

    We find little evidence that either the CRA or the GSE goals played a significant role in the subprime crisis. Our lender tests indicate that areas disproportionately served by lenders covered by the CRA experienced lower delinquency rates and less risky lending. Similarly, the threshold tests show no evidence that either program had a significantly negative effect on outcomes.

    http://www.dallasfed.org/assets/documents/cd/bcp/2009/bcp0901.pdf

    Here's the smoking gun showing just how corrupt and stupid the CRA theory is. You can't refute it and you wont try.

  15. Entitlemented


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    15   10:48pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    An auditor with Fannie who showed actual data on the CRA and then the acquision of the loans required by HUD Affordable Homes (AH) criterian. Your chart shows no actual data, and of course does not include the CRA home loan originations converted to HUD AH loans. Now there were so many rules I dont think that most people are aware that the CRA loans converted to regular HUD, but recall that people did do multiple Refi's pulled money out like an ATM, and the HUD buyout of CRA loans helped fuel this.

  16. iwog


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    16   11:40pm Sun 25 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Entitlemented says

    An auditor with Fannie who showed actual data on the CRA and then the acquision of the loans required by HUD Affordable Homes (AH) criterian. Your chart shows no actual data, and of course does not include the CRA home loan originations converted to HUD AH loans. Now there were so many rules I dont think that most people are aware that the CRA loans converted to regular HUD, but recall that people did do multiple Refi's pulled money out like an ATM, and the HUD buyout of CRA loans helped fuel this.

    It's not relevant at all and it clouds the issue which is why you're bringing it up.

    The only thing that is relevant when examining the role of CRA in the mortgage crisis is default rate. If CRA default rate on sub-prime loans is higher than private money, then CRA can be implicated. If CRA default rate is lower than private money, then CRA mitigated the crash.

    Now which do you think is true?

    Here's the bottom line. You can dispute it if you wish, but you'd be lying and there's no way in hell you'll provide a source as I have done:

    1. Only 6% of sub-prime loans went to CRA or low income borrowers.
    2. CRA loans performed better than non-CRA subprime loans.
    3. All legitimate examinations of the issue including those by the federal reserve report that the CRA was not responsible for the crisis.

    http://www.ccc.unc.edu/cra.php

  17. Entitlemented


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    17   12:13am Mon 26 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Simple answers in the complicated housing don't fit. One must consider for instance, Loan to Value, down payment reduction, credit risk, the type of loan. Its hard to judge "relevance" of the CRA when the down payment rate requirement went to near zero as MBS's were flying blind in 2005-2007. Also, the MERS system made taking money out of the "virtual appreciation" must be factored in, in addition to CRA loan conversion to HUD affordable.

    There was immense pressure from the government for social engineering of the CRA for home loans:

    Attorney General Janet Reno in January 1994: "we will tackle lending discrimination wherever and in whatever form it appears. No loan is exempt, no bank is immune. For those who thumb their nose at us, I promise vigorous enforcement." Finally the fruit of the continually lowering loan standards:

  18. iwog


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    18   12:16am Mon 26 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Entitlemented says

    Simple answers in the complicated housing don't fit. One must consider for instance, Loan to Value, down payment reduction, credit risk, the type of loan. Its hard to judge "relevance" of the CRA when the down payment rate requirement went to near zero as MBS's were flying blind in 2005-2007. Also, the MERS system made taking money out of the "virtual appreciation" must be factored in, in addition to CRA loan conversion to HUD affordable.

    Totally irrelevant to the fact that only 6% of sub-prime was written to CRA and CRA had a lower default rate than non-CRA. You are intentionally trying to cloud the only thing that matters with bullshit.

    Entitlemented says

    There was immense pressure from the government for social engineering of the CRA for home loans:

    Ditto.

    Entitlemented says

    Attorney General Janet Reno in January 1994: "we will tackle lending discrimination wherever and in whatever form it appears. No loan is exempt, no bank is immune. For those who thumb their nose at us, I promise vigorous enforcement." Finally the fruit of the continually lowering loan standards:

    Ditto.

    I have two completely destructive facts that annihilate everything you've posted and you flatly refuse to address either one.

    Why?

  19. iwog


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    19   12:22am Mon 26 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   Protected  

    You know what? This is exactly what I was talking about in the other thread and why Republicans can't fucking have a conversation.

    - CRA loans represented 6% of total sub-prime lending.
    - CRA loans defaulted at a lower rate than non-CRA sub-prime loans.

    How the fuck can CRA be responsible for the mortgage crisis? What Janet Reno said in January 1994 has nothing whatsoever to do with asshole mortgage brokers writing liar loans to people without jobs while asshole bankers sold these same mortgages rated AAA by asshole rating agencies on Wall Street.

    Bringing up a policy statement by Janet Reno is beyond idiotic.

  20. thunderlips11


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    20   10:25am Mon 26 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Isn't Janet Reno a Prosecutor? Who knew the Attorney General of the US was in charge of Home Loans?

    How the hell was a Clinton Era AG responsible for a housing crisis that didn't get underway until Bush's second term?

  21. tatupu70


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    21   6:16pm Mon 26 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Melmakian says

    Try paying attention: The Clinton Regime pushed for the expansion of the CRA

    Or you could pay attention to the fact that CRA loans failed at a much lower rate than private loans. So they lessened the crisis rather than caused it.

  22. iwog


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    22   6:27pm Mon 26 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    tatupu70 says

    Or you could pay attention to the fact that CRA loans failed at a much lower rate than private loans. So they lessened the crisis rather than caused it.

    http://www.ccc.unc.edu/cra.php

    CRA loans are less likely to default. Traditional mortgage products and closer attention to underwriting mean that most CRA loans perform substantially better than subprime loans. UNC Center for Community Capital research found the default rate for CRA loans was 70% less than for a subprime loans made to borrowers with similar risk characteristics. Similarly, Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco research found that loans made by a CRA-regulated lender in its assessment area were more than 60% less likely to be in foreclosure than loans made by an independent mortgage company to a comparable borrower.

  23. JohnLaw


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    23   7:15pm Mon 26 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    I don't like a lot of things about the Republican Party, but I certainly would not project Rubio's view on the Theory of Evolution on to most people who identify with the Republican Party. That, IMO, is small minded and bigoted.

  24. Bellingham Bill


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    24   7:18pm Mon 26 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    JohnLaw says

    I certainly would not project Rubio's view on the Theory of Evolution on most people who identify with the Republican Party. That, IMO, is small minded and bigoted

    Majority of Republicans Are Creationists

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/hold-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx

    ~5% of Republicans are rational individuals, 60% are actually certifiably insane

  25. iwog


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    25   11:30am Tue 27 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Melmakian says

    tatupu70 says

    So they lessened the crisis rather than caused it.

    Do you just have this hose hanging from your ceiling that gushes out Obama Kool-Aide on demand for ya or what?

    We shall consider this another total failure of Shrek to address any point and instead chalk it up to a personal attack temper tantrum.

    Par.

  26. Bellingham Bill


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    26   11:31am Tue 27 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Pretty good article on our pal Shrek here:

    At least a few conservatives now recognize that Republicans suffer for epistemic closure. They were genuinely shocked at Romney’s loss because they ignored every poll not produced by a right-wing pollster such as Rasmussen or approved by right-wing pundits such as the perpetually wrong Dick Morris. Living in the Fox News cocoon, most Republicans had no clue that they were losing or that their ideas were both stupid and politically unpopular.

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/revenge-of-the-reality-based-community/

    Maybe Shrek here is a democratic operative working deep undercover as a false-flag idiot. The stupider he makes Republicans look the better, and he's in a class of his own on that score.

  27. tatupu70


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    27   11:31am Tue 27 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Melmakian says

    Do you just have this hose hanging from your ceiling that gushes out Obama Kool-Aide on demand for ya or what

    How does this reflect on Obama??

    Do you dispute that CRA loans actually outperformed private originiations?

    I suspect you'll come back with another personal attack. That's usually what you do when you've lost...

  28. iwog


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    28   11:36am Tue 27 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Bellingham Bill says

    Pretty good article on our pal Shrek here:

    I’m not going to beat around the bush and pretend I don’t have a vested interest here. Frankly, I think I’m at ground zero in the saga of Republicans closing their eyes to any facts or evidence that conflict with their dogma. Rather than listen to me, they threw me under a bus. To this day, I don’t think they understand that my motives were to help them avoid the permanent decline that now seems inevitable.

  29. errc


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    29   11:41am Tue 27 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    This is news?

    Humans, in general, are irrational.

    We as a society, tend to lock rational folks away in institutions, to help protect us from our fears of being confronted by rational beings.

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