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37.5% of Graduates Work in Jobs Requiring No Degree; Who is to Blame? Solutions?

By Mish   Follow   Wed, 28 Nov 2012, 11:43am   3,333 views   61 comments
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Student-Loan Delinquencies Surpass Credit Cards, 37.5% of Graduates Work in Jobs Requiring No Degree; Who is to Blame? What About Solutions?
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/11/student-loan-delinquencies-surpass.html
Mish

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1. thunderlips11 Follow Befriend (13) 52 threads 2,639 comments Premium

   1   1:10pm Wed 28 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   Protected   Spoiled Lazy Employers, who now demand Bachelor degrees for basic supervisory and office clerk jobs. There's no reason you can't answer phones, make appointments, and reorder supplies for the water cooler with only a HS education. There's no reason you can't make a schedule, hire and fire Part Time kids for running the counter, or remember to order more pre-packaged turkey wraps to sell with only a HS education. There's no reason you can't collect holiday cookie orders over the phone (or rental cars, or flights, or books, or dildos), take a CC number, type it into a field, and thank the customer on the other end with only a HS education. You don't need knowledge of Joyce, Kirkegaarde, Margaret Mead, Differential Calculus, Trigonometry, EE Cummings, Carl Jung, Six Sigma Training, Keynes, Friedman, etc. to do any of these jobs. But companies are demanding at least Associate Degrees, Bachelor Degrees preferred. It's ludicrous, and a huge drain on society. The reason College Degrees aren't worth a damn is because the kids don't give a damn, they just know it's something they have to do to have a chance in hell of getting a job they can just live on.

2. thunderlips11 Follow Befriend (13) 52 threads 2,639 comments Premium

   2   1:18pm Wed 28 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Think about how ridiculous this is: "Gee, Jane would make a good Office Manager. She's on time, organized with all her little folders, knows the ins and outs of Google Calendar, is prompt and polite over the phone and email, but dammit, she has no knowledge of Nietzsche or the uses of Pi. We'll have to find a college grad instead."

3. CaptainShuddup Follow Befriend (1) 250 threads 4,749 comments

   3   1:26pm Wed 28 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike (1)   The only jobs that require a degree are Doctors and Lawyers. And that's only because there's a legal reason. Everything else is just bullcrap to justify enslaving our youth into years of school debt, they'll take most of their adult life to pay off.

4. thunderlips11 Follow Befriend (13) 52 threads 2,639 comments Premium

   4   1:31pm Wed 28 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   Protected   Here's a solution: Mandate a 900 SAT score across the board to get any federal aid or grants. Problem solved. I'm sorry, if you got less than 900 on your SAT, you don't belong in college, at least not now. 12 years of education should have done it. Even if you goofed off in HS and instead read books and did woodshop projects or whatever, you should have enough reading comprehension, vocabulary, and math skills to get 900. If you are not that smart, but you're dedicated and a hard worker, you should still be able to get 900+ on your SAT.

5. Ceffer Follow Befriend 6 threads 650 comments Pleasanton, CA

   5   1:32pm Wed 28 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   It would be nice if education were considered a value in and of itself again without the vested estate and meal ticket aspects. I have acquaintances who think I am crazy because I did something for three years for the education, no ulterior motive, and I don't and never have regretted it a bit, it changed my life and outlook in ways that are difficult to describe.

6. Nobody Follow Befriend 10 threads 274 comments San Jose, CA

   6   1:34pm Wed 28 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   CaptainShuddup says Everything else is just bullcrap to justify enslaving our youth into years of school debt, they'll take most of their adult life to pay off. Welcome to slavery. From 1%.

7. thunderlips11 Follow Befriend (13) 52 threads 2,639 comments Premium

   7   1:37pm Wed 28 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Knowledge is important, but you can't make somebody give a damn about it. I'd say that about 1/3 of all people with Bachelor's Degrees didn't really get much academically out of college. They can't speak intelligently about their own damn major. I had a Psych Grad once who did not know who Carl Jung is. I'm sorry, but how does one get a degree in Psychology without the faintest idea of who Carl Jung is? People like that can be warm, wonderful, even witty people, but formal, expensive education is wasted on them. Not because they're stupid, but because they don't give a shit. By demanding college educations for these kinds of people, we're wasting their time, our time, and society's limited resources. Should education be available for all? Yes, but you have to show you give a shit. Raising the bar a bit to a modest leve keeps those who are seeking a rubber stamp out, and improves the experience and outcome for everybody.

8. zzyzzx Follow Befriend (9) 416 threads 4,138 comments Baltimore, MD

   8   4:44pm Wed 28 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   thunderlips11 says Here's a solution: Mandate a 900 SAT score across the board to get any federal aid or grants. I would make it higher than 900.

9. JohnLaw Follow Befriend 1 threads 133 comments

   9   5:53am Thu 29 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   The solution is the market. Remove government loan subsidies for education and individuals will make better choices about whether higher ed is a good investment of their time and resources.

10. CaptainShuddup Follow Befriend (1) 250 threads 4,749 comments

    10   6:21am Thu 29 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Nobody says Welcome to slavery. From 1% It's not the 1% (who ever in the hell that is, I still can't get an answer) This is greedy Liberal educators that want a mansion and yacht to teach kids useless liberal arts subjects.

11. Nobody Follow Befriend 10 threads 274 comments San Jose, CA

    11   11:59am Thu 29 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   CaptainShuddup says This is greedy Liberal educators that want a mansion and yacht to teach kids useless liberal arts subjects. Last I checked, no teachers that I know was the 1%. Keep up with your ignorance. The 1% rules. And you slaves don't have to know it. We'd like to keep it that way, so you don't feel like an idiot.

12. TechGromit Follow Befriend (6) 85 threads 969 comments 44 male Egg Harbor City, NJ

    12   6:59pm Thu 29 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Mish says What About Solutions? The solution is so obvious it's staring you in the face. Require a degree to work at Starbucks or Walmart.

13. Thomas Chongruk Follow Befriend 2 comments Jewett City, CT

    13   8:38pm Thu 29 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   If that degree helps the person get the jobs, or advance, then unfortunately it has value, ... Even if it's not directly tied to the additional education.

14. dodgerfanjohn Follow Befriend 19 threads 590 comments Los Angeles, CA

    14   9:06pm Thu 29 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   I can tell you that a part of the problem is people attending very expensive schools to obtain a degree that will not help them get a job all the while using government loans to pay not only for school but also to pay for living expenses as well. A liberal arts degree from a very pricey school like USC still is a liberal arts degree. And when you graduate and are working as a barrista whatchagonnado with that $150k loan balance?

15. fil Follow Befriend 6 threads 66 comments

    15   4:17pm Fri 30 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Not all degrees are create equal. You can probably still get a job straight out of school with a CS or EE degree. Less technical majors your mileage will vary.

16. zzyzzx Follow Befriend (9) 416 threads 4,138 comments Baltimore, MD

    16   4:21pm Fri 30 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   TechGromit says The solution is so obvious it's staring you in the face. Require a degree to work at Starbucks or Walmart I was thinking that our excess college graduate should emigrate to other countries where college graduates are rare.

17. Kevin Follow Befriend 40 threads 2,652 comments

    17   4:53pm Fri 30 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)   I don't have a degree but I make in excess of $300000 a year as a software engineer. "Requirements" are fuzzy.

18. Peter P Follow Befriend (4) 117 threads 17,655 comments Premium

    18   5:01pm Fri 30 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Kevin says I don't have a degree but I make in excess of $300000 a year as a software engineer. Good for you. This illustrates my point nicely. BTW, you are only middle class.

19. Peter P Follow Befriend (4) 117 threads 17,655 comments Premium

    19   5:19pm Fri 30 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike   Protected   BTW, few jobs truly require a degree by nature. The hiring managers may simply require it to make themselves feel better.

20. Mark D Follow Befriend 64 threads 486 comments Simi Valley, CA

    20   6:49pm Fri 30 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   this is the problem: http://io9.com/5511030/earn-your-masters-degree-in-vampire-literature there are a lot of high paying high-tech jobs that require a degree: chemical engineer, petroleum engineer, telecom engineer, hardware engineer, dentist, financial scientist, optometrist, pharmacist, software architect, RN, data scientist. there are also a lot of IT/programming jobs that pay well and most employers will require a degree unless you have tons of experience. although it's hard to move up the corporate ladder if you don't have a degree. the people graduating today entered college 5-7 years ago during the bubble when easy money was being made just like during the stock bubble. they will need to adjust their expectations. i'd say the blame should be placed on 1) the people who didn't plan ahead 2) the gov keep giving loans and aids to people who get useless degrees.

21. TechGromit Follow Befriend (6) 85 threads 969 comments 44 male Egg Harbor City, NJ

    21   7:17pm Fri 30 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Peter P says Kevin says I don't have a degree but I make in excess of $300000 a year as a software engineer. Good for you. This illustrates my point nicely. BTW, you are only middle class. If 300k a year is middle class, than I'm living below the poverty line only making 100k (combined me and my wife).

22. Bellingham Bill Follow Befriend 30 threads 1,488 comments Bellingham, WA Premium

    22   7:40pm Fri 30 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike   Protected   LOL, $300K is NOT middle class if it can be kept up. What separates the middle class from the upper class is that the upper class no longer has to rely on wage income to survive, they have money "working" for them, collecting money from other people. Ten years of $300K salaries with $200K/yr put away will have a $2M asset cushion at the end of it. At 3% net returns that is $5,000/mo of interest income, plenty to be no longer reliant on wage income and thus no longer "middle class". $300K/yr is a rocket ship out of the middle class, LOL

23. Kevin Follow Befriend 40 threads 2,652 comments

    23   9:45pm Fri 30 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)   By the traditional definition of "middle class", I am, indeed, middle class. Lower class: Poor people, working poor, those who are a paycheck away from losing everything (or already lost it) Middle class: People who are well off but must continue to work in order to maintain that status. Financially independent to a point; they can survive if they lose their jobs for a short while but can't survive on existing wealth alone. Upper class: Rich people. They never need to work if they choose not to, because they can live comfortably off of interest / dividends / rents on their assets. I'm not sure WTF me being middle class has to do with anything though. My whole point was that saying what a "requirement" for a job is is a very fuzzy concept. On paper, being a software engineer "requires" a degree in an appropriate related discipline. In practice, many of us don't have degrees. There actually aren't that many professions that truly require a degree. It's pretty much just the ones that require licenses to practice (law, medicine, education, etc.) It's a damn shame that we ask kids to commit to paying tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars for an education that they don't get much out of it. Now, I did go to college for 5 years. I just dropped out because I wasn't learning anything new. I worked full time as a software engineer during that entire period, and my college education (or lack thereof) has never even appeared on my resume. I don't want to sound anti-education. I just don't think the current university system is the best way to educate people. Bellingham Bill says Ten years of $300K salaries with $200K/yr put away will have a $2M asset cushion at the end of it. Nobody who makes $300k can put away $200k a year if they actually want to enjoy their life during that period. My federal taxes alone are about $65k; total taxes maybe $72? Much higher if you live in a state with an income tax. This is married filing jointly + a sizable mortgage interest deduction. If I were single or didn't own a home, my taxes would be much higher. In WA I'd be looking at $90k; in CA or NY it would be around $115k. To save $200k I'd have to get a second job!

24. Peter P Follow Befriend (4) 117 threads 17,655 comments Premium

    24   11:15pm Fri 30 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Protected   TechGromit says If 300k a year is middle class, than I'm living below the poverty line only making 100k (combined me and my wife). The middle class has a wide range. If your money is not making you money, you are in the middle class. If you cannot live off the interest of the interest (duplication intended) of your capital, you are in the middle class. If you spend more money on food than on political contribution, you are in the middle class.

25. Peter P Follow Befriend (4) 117 threads 17,655 comments Premium

    25   11:15pm Fri 30 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   300K is not even upper middle class.

26. Peter P Follow Befriend (4) 117 threads 17,655 comments Premium

    26   11:31pm Fri 30 Nov 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Bellingham Bill says Ten years of $300K salaries with $200K/yr put away will have a $2M asset cushion at the end of it. In all likelihood IRS will be knocking on your door.

27. Kevin Follow Befriend 40 threads 2,652 comments

    27   2:37am Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Peter P says 300K is not even upper middle class. Traditionally (ie. the British way of measuring these things), the rarely-used term "upper middle class" has little to do with size of income, but rather refers to people who's income is decoupled from an employer. This includes independent professionals, small business owners, large farmers, landlords, etc. A VP at a big company earning $1M a year may not qualify but a partner at a law firm or an independent consultant earning $250k would. When referring to incomes (the american way of measuring), though, every categorization that you'll find used commonly would certainly categorize my income as upper middle class. Using income as a guide is beyond useless though. Based on my W2 for 2011, I was in the top 1% of income earners. Of course, amongst the 1% I'm in the very bottom, earning less than a quarter of what people in the 0.1% earn. There are about a million and a half of us in this country. That said, I still don't know what the fuck you're going on about. We're talking about education vs occupation, not who qualifies as middle class.

28. John Bailo Follow Befriend 94 threads 444 comments Kent, WA John Bailo's website

    28   4:01am Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)   thunderlips11 says There's no reason you can't answer phones, make appointments, and reorder supplies for the water cooler with only a HS education. Conversely, there is no reason a person with an undergraduate degree cannot be funded with a living wage and do real research and work. The overspecialization and barriers to entry of the Ph.d. do more harm than good rather than allowing more people to compete or rather contribute to the arts and sciences. This could even apply to creative arts, literature, much as people are loath to give "their taxes" to artists, if we are going to have these degrees they need to be backed up with guarantees of a future career. At the same time we need to get more stringent on what it takes to earn a degree and weed out the "life credits", fuzzy departments, and uncredited lecturers who substitute for academic rigor. What it really comes down to is do we want to rebuild the Meritocracy...that artificial system of rewards that would allow someone to claim a job and salary simply by completing the accredited degree. In my opinion that is how it should work. You get a Biology degree, a B.S. and it automatically qualifies you for a national position in that field, much a like kind of mini-tenure. The alternative is the lottery style society that we now survive in.

29. Kevin Follow Befriend 40 threads 2,652 comments

    29   4:20am Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   John Bailo says What it really comes down to is do we want to rebuild the Meritocracy...that artificial system of rewards that would allow someone to claim a job and salary simply by completing the accredited degree. "Rebuild" what? The thing you're speaking of never existed. Factory jobs have disappeared, and people were told that in order to get a good, middle class job, they now need to go to college. So they go to college. When they graduate the only jobs available that they are qualified for only require HS level education. It's the loss of factory jobs that screwed things up, not some shortage of professional jobs. The professional jobs simply never filled the gaps left by factories. The free trade pushers were full of shit and now we're all paying the price. John Bailo says You get a Biology degree, a B.S. and it automatically qualifies you for a national position in that field, much a like kind of mini-tenure. And how exactly do you fund this? There simply isn't enough demand for workers at that skill level in most fields. The fact is, too many people are going to college in pursuit of too few jobs that require the education. Fewer kids should be going to college, and more should be working those clerk, sales, data entry, and other service jobs right out of highschool. I'd argue that the bachelors itself is becoming a fairly useless thing. The majority of professions that require college education to perform require something more. Want to be a physician? Get an MD Want to be a researcher? Get a PhD Want to be a lawyer? Get a JD There are still a few professions where a bachelors is both necessary and sufficient (accounting and nursing come to mind), but not many. John Bailo says The alternative is the lottery style society that we now survive in. It's not a lottery, it's a free market wet dream.

30. zzyzzx Follow Befriend (9) 416 threads 4,138 comments Baltimore, MD

    30   4:21pm Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Bellingham Bill says Ten years of $300K salaries with $200K/yr put away I don't see how it's possible to put away more than 100% of your after tax salary.

31. Bellingham Bill Follow Befriend 30 threads 1,488 comments Bellingham, WA Premium

    31   5:03pm Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   zzyzzx says I don't see how it's possible to put away more than 100% of your after tax salary. Well, $300,000 is at the level when you can shelter a lot of it. ~$40,000/yr into corporate IRA, family of 4 gets $20,000 exempted, MID + Prop tax is another $25,000 deduction, so a $300k income might come out to $215,000 taxable, avoiding the 33% bracket altogether and paying $50,000 in federal income tax. Plus the $13k for FICA and $9000 for Medicare, bringing total tax burden to $72,000 and leaving $228,000 as disposable income. Part of the $200,000/yr in savings was the mortgage pay-down, btw. On a 15 year loan, $1500/mo of the $5000 PITI would be principal paydown, $20,000/yr and increasing as the loan is paid down.

32. Bellingham Bill Follow Befriend 30 threads 1,488 comments Bellingham, WA Premium

    32   5:07pm Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Kevin says It's the loss of factory jobs that screwed things up, not some shortage of professional jobs. The professional jobs simply never filled the gaps left by factories. The free trade pushers were full of shit and now we're all paying the price. http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=dlx is interesting and showing that mfg and professional has swapped since 1990. So not entirely "full of shit", but there's zero net growth in 20 years, when population has grown 25% since 1990.

33. Call it Crazy Follow Befriend 229 threads 2,781 comments

    33   5:09pm Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   zzyzzx says Bellingham Bill says Ten years of $300K salaries with $200K/yr put away I don't see how it's possible to put away more than 100% of your after tax salary. He's having problems with his calculator today...

34. Bellingham Bill Follow Befriend 30 threads 1,488 comments Bellingham, WA Premium

    34   5:13pm Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Call it Crazy says He's having problems with his calculator today... You would be very ill advised to bet your life that plenty of people aren't legally seeing $250,000 of disposable income on a $300,000 nominal gross. Let me remind you that your team's Captain Capitalist -- Romney -- paid a 14% tax rate in 2011. On a $300,000 base that's $260,000 disposable, LOL.

35. rooemoore Follow Befriend 41 threads 907 comments Ross, CA

    35   5:17pm Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Mish's solution to all problems: Every man for himself!

36. Peter P Follow Befriend (4) 117 threads 17,655 comments Premium

    36   5:58pm Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   rooemoore says Mish's solution to all problems: Every man for himself! It is a real solution. If not the only natural solution.

37. Peter P Follow Befriend (4) 117 threads 17,655 comments Premium

    37   6:00pm Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Bellingham Bill says Let me remind you that your team's Captain Capitalist -- Romney -- paid a 14% tax rate in 2011. On a $300,000 base that's $260,000 disposable, LOL. He said $300K SALARY.

38. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    38   6:12pm Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected   Kevin says I don't have a degree but I make in excess of $300000 a year as a software engineer. "Requirements" are fuzzy. I know of a few people in or recently have been in your income range with nothing more than a high school diploma. On the other hand I have a BS, MA and a Ph.D. and I only make $100k as to most of my Ph.D. colleagues. Clearly there is an inverse correlation to education and earning potential - damn you to hell you lying sack of $#!& educational industrial complex! If $300k/yr is middle class does that mean I quality for section 8 and food stamps?

39. New Renter Follow Befriend (3) 13 threads 2,220 comments San Jose, CA Premium

    39   6:16pm Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Protected   CaptainShuddup says Nobody says Welcome to slavery. From 1% It's not the 1% (who ever in the hell that is, I still can't get an answer) This is greedy Liberal educators that want a mansion and yacht to teach kids useless liberal arts subjects. Gee I had no idea Elmer J. Fudd, millionaire was a greedy liberal educator: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Brush

40. Kevin Follow Befriend 40 threads 2,652 comments

    40   6:17pm Sat 1 Dec 2012   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Bellingham Bill says Call it Crazy says He's having problems with his calculator today... You would be very ill advised to bet your life that plenty of people aren't legally seeing $250,000 of disposable income on a $300,000 nominal gross. Let me remind you that your team's Captain Capitalist -- Romney -- paid a 14% tax rate in 2011. On a $300,000 base that's $260,000 disposable, LOL. If you earn $300k from capital gains, sure. But we aren't talking about that.

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