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Why don't we tax the wealthy?


By The Professor   Follow   Fri, 21 Dec 2012, 10:22pm PST   10,449 views   133 comments   Watch (0)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (4)  

As in Tax their wealth and not their income.

According to Forbes there are 403 billionaires in the US. A recent survey from British analyst WealthInsight reports the U.S. has added 1.1 million millionaires since Obama was elected in 2008.

We all know that most of the wealth is concentrated at the top. Instead of taking working peoples income why don't we take some of the vast accumulations of wealth that the "owner" class has?

How much wealth and power does an individual need? I realize at a certain point it is not about money but power. Unfortunately that power is amassing more and more of the world’s resources.

How about we take 10% a year of everything over $10,000,000 in accrued wealth from the upper class? When their wealth fell below ten million they would still have enough to live fairly comfortably.

I know this is unrealistic. In the utopian world of my mind healthcare, education, and security are readily available and the people of the world live in peace and harmony. Instead of warring for profit we could expand into the infinite space of the universe.

"From each according to their ability. To each according to their need".

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The Professor   befriend   ignore   Fri, 21 Dec 2012, 10:29pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 1

"The number of U.S. millionaire households fell 129,000, or 2.5%, in 2011 to 5,134,000.

Of the 15 countries with the greatest concentrations of the wealthy, the U.S. share is now down to 46.7% from 48.3% in 2010.

The number of millionaires in China surged 15% in 2011.

And Europe’s share of the world’s millionaires was flat at 16.7%.

Millionaire households are defined in the study as those with cash, listed securities and other onshore and offshore assets exceeding $1 million in value and excluding investors’ businesses, residences and luxury goods."

from http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2012/06/01/number-of-u-s-millionaires-declines-2-5/

JohnLaw   befriend   ignore   Fri, 21 Dec 2012, 11:09pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 2

A million dollars in 1913 (when the Federal Reserve was created) is worth over $30 million in today's inflated currency. So why don't you up the ante a bit?

The Professor   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 12:42am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 3

JohnLaw says

So why don't you up the ante a bit?

How about $50,000,000?

How much money does a person need?

A lot of people would move to some tropical paradise and have drinks on the beach if they had 10 million.

dodgerfanjohn   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 12:55am PST   Share   Quote   Like (4)   Dislike     Comment 4

The fundamental flaw of this system, and all systems like it, is that the orgasmic draw of power does not diminish. It's embedded in the DNA of some human beings...a very strong psychological draw.

The wealth won't be redistributed to the poor. It will be redistributed to a new class of people seeking power...those middle men doing the redistributing.

In laymans terms...meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Peter P   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 8:14am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 5

IDDQD says

The Professor says

How much money does a person need?

It's up to said person to decide.

"Need" is a harmful word.

How much money does a person want?

You will get 100 answers from 100 people. There is only one correct answer: MORE.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 8:22am PST   Share   Quote   Like (6)   Dislike (1)     Comment 6

Need?

Fuck, I would need at least $500 Billion to invade and hold Anatolia and crown myself Monarch-God for Life and rule it AND guarantee my progeny for the next 200 generations enough wealth to preserve their legacy.

Then there are travel and entertainment expenses.

The Professor   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 10:47am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 7

I now realize that I have chosen the wrong forum to spew my socialist utopian ideals.

taxee   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 11:16am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 8

It's important to be able to afford at least one politician.

dodgerfanjohn   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 12:49pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 9

The Professor says

I know realize that I have chosen the wrong forum to spew my socialist utopian ideals.

Well the flaw is .....its a fairy tale. Much like John Lennon's Imagine(and I despise that song for the same reasons). Its a situation that will never ever exist unless you somehow control or brainwash everyone. Human beings are each individuals and are relatively unique creations with disparate thoughts, ideas, and talents. There simply no one size fits all.

Rin   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 1:19pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 10

Here's what would work ... every man, woman, and child, hooked up to a virtual reality simulation, where they can experience anything they like to their fitting.

In this scenario, the actual work being done is done by robots and people will simply be living out their fantasies in VR, living on govt subsidies.

Meccos   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 2:10pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 11

The Professor says

How much money does a person need?

why should it be a question of need, but rather what is right?

Meccos   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 2:12pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 12

Why do we want to penalize people for being rich? What crime was committed?
Even if we take this away from legal aspects and speak on the morality of wealth, who is to say that taking wealth away from those who have it a moral thing to do?

To all those who support taxing the rich, etc, etc.... perhaps you should spend more time working to become wealthy, then you wont have to spend so much time thinking of ways to take their money away...

Vicente   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 2:16pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (3)     Comment 13

The Professor says

Tax their wealth and not their income.

Because they have devoted many decades to single-mindedly propagandizing the notion that you should never do that? It's the usual problem, most of us are just heads-down doing our thing getting by and getting along.

Richie Rich however lives, breathes, eats, sleeps MONEY. They work 18 hour days thinking about getting MORE MORE MORE and how they can destroy the concept of the estate tax. To tax their WEALTH would be an assault on their ego and their personal dynasty. You may have a variety of interests in your life and money is just an enabler to live that life. To Richie Rich the greatest purpose in life is having a bigger mansion portfolio than the neighbor.

It's sort of the like trying to "understand" a suicide bomber, you can't really relate to them. We have Stockholm Syndrome and will defend them rather than fight them.

Meccos   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 2:24pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (3)   Dislike (1)     Comment 14

Vicente says

Richie Rich however lives, breathes, eats, sleeps MONEY. They work 18 hour days thinking about getting MORE MORE MORE and how they can destroy the concept of the estate tax. You may have a variety of interests in your life and money is just an enabler to live that life. To Richie Rich the greatest purpose in life is having a bigger mansion portfolio than the neighbor:

If people want to devote the majority of their lives to making more and more money, what is it to you? If thats how they want to live, then let them be. Why hate on that? Sounds like envy to me. You want to be rich, but dont want to spend the time nor have what it takes to be rich.

Meccos   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 2:25pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (3)   Dislike (1)     Comment 15

Vicente says

To Richie Rich the greatest purpose in life is having a bigger mansion portfolio than the neighbor:

To the non-rich socialist like yourself, the greatest purpose in life seems to be bring people down to your level so that you feel better about yourself...

Vicente   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 2:30pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike (3)     Comment 16

Meccos says

If people want to devote the majority of their lives to making more and more money, what is it to you?

Unlike many of my fellow citizens, I don't want to put SOCIOPATHS in charge of everything on the planet. Time was when corporations were not people, and not to be trusted. Trusts were busted, monopolies broken up. Because Richie Rich was not "more equal" of a person than any other citizen. This has changed a lot, corporations hold sway and finance bean-counters get paid 200+ times more than real workers.

Sometimes to fight the dominant paradigm, you need some heat to break the hold it has. Eschew the word "consumer", you are not a fucking economic unit you are a CITIZEN.

Meccos   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 2:34pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (3)   Dislike (1)     Comment 17

Vicente says

Meccos says

If people want to devote the majority of their lives to making more and more money, what is it to you?

Unlike many of my fellow citizens, I don't want to put SOCIOPATHS in charge of everything on the planet. Time was when corporations were not people, and not to be trusted. Trusts were busted, monopolies broken up. Because Richie Rich was not "more equal" of a person than any other citizen. This has changed a lot, corporations hold sway and finance bean-counters get paid 200+ times more than real workers.

Sometimes to fight the dominant paradigm, you need some heat to break the hold it has. Eschew the word "consumer", you are not a fucking economic unit you are a CITIZEN.

Who are these mysterious "rich" people you speak of? Are they those who make over 200K a year? Is it that typical CEO of a very very big corporation that many on this forum generally refer to? Who are these rich that we should hate so much for being so rich and powerful and ruining the rest of our commoner's lives...

Meccos   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 2:36pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (3)   Dislike (1)     Comment 18

DOWN with the RICH... for being so rich! Everyone get your torches and pitchforks out and lets raid Beverly Hills!

Vicente   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 2:43pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (2)     Comment 19

Meccos says

Who are these mysterious "rich" people you speak of?

I could go on, but there's plenty of people who should be in jail right now instead of sipping fancy drinks on a private jet. That they are doing so, is testimony to how perverted many are that they worship these fuckers or at least "tut tut" slap them on the wrists and let them slide with "well that's the price we must pay to service our glorious global capitalism!"

Remember those long-ago Enron days when we actually had perp walks?

Meccos   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 2:56pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (3)   Dislike (1)     Comment 20

There is a difference of being "rich" and being a "crook". Unfortunately the problem we have on this forum is that "the rich" have simply been villianized for the sake of being rich.

Many of you have participated in this class warfare by making all "rich" people the enemy while failing to make distinctions between "the rich" and "the crooks".

Im all for sending "crooks" to jail and limiting the gain of wealth through illegal or crooked ways. However there is no fault nor sin for simply being wealthy.

Vicente   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 3:42pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (3)     Comment 21

Meccos says

Many of you have participated in this class warfare

Class warfare is terrible, so let's not even bring up this uncomfortable subject? That's the excuse of the oligarchs and their apologists.

“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

― Warren Buffett

Vicente   befriend   ignore   Sat, 22 Dec 2012, 3:47pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (4)     Comment 22

Meccos says

However there is no fault nor sin for simply being wealthy.

The "sin" is in letting the trend in this chart be our goal and continuing it to infinity:

I was a Libertarian and fiscal conservative for nearly 30 years. For much of that I would quote at the drop of a hat about the glories of capitalism and trickle-down economics. However the fact is it's demonstrably not working. Only fairly recently have I come to the realization that it's fundamentally wrong to let Richie Rich run amok with special status, no constraints, no responsibility, and no consequences for anything they do. Individual rich people may not be conscious of it, but as a class they are working to enrich themselves not just in money but in POWER while all lower classes are frozen in place. It is inherent in their desire to seek MORE profit every quarter and contain every cost, that the wages and wealth of everyone below will always be held as low as possible and that carrot will be forever just out of reach.

Meccos   befriend   ignore   Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 2:01am PST   Share   Quote   Like (4)   Dislike     Comment 23

Vicente says

Meccos says

Many of you have participated in this class warfare

Class warfare is terrible, so let's not even bring up this uncomfortable subject? That's the excuse of the oligarchs and their apologists.

“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

― Warren Buffett

Quoting Buffet? This guy claims his secretary pays more taxes than him, yet he fails to mention a few things.
1. based on his numbers his secretary makes over 6 figures
2. all his income is based on dividends and capital gains. Yet his argument has been to increase wage taxes and does not really push dividends and capital gains taxes

Meccos   befriend   ignore   Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 2:07am PST   Share   Quote   Like (3)   Dislike (1)     Comment 24

Vicente says

The "sin" is in letting the trend in this chart be our goal and continuing it to infinity:

There is no sin in making money. There is only sin in certain ways that money is made. Lets make that clear distinction. You and many others on this website villainize the rich because they are rich.

Vicente says

it's fundamentally wrong to let Richie Rich run amok with special status, no constraints, no responsibility, and no consequences for anything they do.

I agree with you. I do not think it is ok to let people do things as you say, however you must be sure to make that clear distinction between those who do and those who dont because by making the generalized comments that you do, you are in essence crucifying all rich people unfairly.Vicente says

Individual rich people may not be conscious of it, but as a class they are working to enrich themselves not just in money but in POWER while all lower classes are frozen in place.

No rich people are conscious. Everyone is conscious of making money. THis is the reason why people study to get an education and why people work as hard as they do. Some are more conscious than others. And yes, with more money, there is more power. There is a natural correlation here. It seems that you fundamentally disagree with the basis our semi-capitalistic society, rather in favor of socialistic ideas.

Bellingham Bill   befriend   ignore   Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 4:48am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (3)     Comment 25

Meccos says

If people want to devote the majority of their lives to making more and more money, what is it to you?

This is EXACTLY the problem in this country, confusing money for wealth like Meccos does above.

I, of course, have zero problem with people creating WEALTH and making money from that enterprise.

That's what capitalism is supposed to be about. Kobe Bryant is the highest-paid baller in the NBA, and people want to pay money to see him put a ball in a hoop, no skin off my nose.

People like me making apps, same thing. Nobody is forced to buy our stuff, and they get value for what we make or they wouldn't buy it.

But that's not what we're doing now, not how the 5% operate at least.

They don't create wealth, they just MONETIZE their ownership of existing wealth, looking for sectors with high barriers to entry and highly motivated buyers -- these are where the economics rents lie.

And this money the 5% make comes not out of the aether or the Mines of Zanzibar, but from the 95% who do not have this ownership position and have to labor for their incomes.

Rental housing rents like iwog. Health care, which is twice as profitable in the USA as the rest of the world for some reason. Energy, natural resource rents in general.

This creates an increasingly imbalanced dynamic, since the great wealth of the 1-5% accretes money faster than anyone can spend it back into the economy.

This is the core problem of unregulated capitalism, even aside from all the crimogenic tendency people have to bend rules when operating without any threat of legal sanction.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/post/the-ted-talk-ted-doesnt-want-you-to-hear/2012/05/17/gIQApiO9VU_blog.html

Meccos   befriend   ignore   Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 9:13am PST   Share   Quote   Like (3)   Dislike     Comment 26

Bellingham Bill says

Meccos says

If people want to devote the majority of their lives to making more and more money, what is it to you?

This is EXACTLY the problem in this country, confusing money for wealth like Meccos does above.

First of all money does equal wealth, although other things can be considered wealth besides money. Secondly, why do you put words into my mouth? where in the quote above did I even imply that? This is one of the problems with you Bill... you put words into peoples mouths.

I simply replied to the previous posters comments as posted below. Vicente says

Richie Rich however lives, breathes, eats, sleeps MONEY. They work 18 hour days thinking about getting MORE MORE MORE and how they can destroy the concept of the estate tax.

Bellingham Bill says

But that's not what we're doing now, not how the 5% operate at least.

They don't create wealth, they just MONETIZE their ownership of existing wealth, looking for sectors with high barriers to entry and highly motivated buyers -- these are where the economics rents lie.

Really? So everyone who makes above 160K, which are the 5% which you speak about) they just "monetize their ownership of wealth?"

Bill, you and many of you on this forum have a fundamental problem of generalizing the rich and making them out to be villains. THis is why many of us who oppose your views. Its not that we are not against those people who are crooked and take advantage of others to gain wealth. We are against this philosophy that the rich are bad and they need to be somehow penalized for being rich. Just as you randomly chose the 5% or others who chose the "2%" or "1%", these are arbitrary numbers. Rather than focusing on the rich, perhaps you and the rest should focus on those who have gained their riches or wealth by cheating and taking advantage. I guarantee you that the majority of the 5% or 2% or even 1% have not. Villainzing the rich for the sake of them being rich makes people look simply envious. Villainize people because they are bad, not just because they are rich.

dodgerfanjohn   befriend   ignore   Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 9:22am PST   Share   Quote   Like (4)   Dislike     Comment 27

dodgerfanjohn says

The fundamental flaw of this system, and all systems like it, is that the orgasmic draw of power does not diminish. It's embedded in the DNA of some human beings...a very strong psychological draw.

The wealth won't be redistributed to the poor. It will be redistributed to a new class of people seeking power...those middle men doing the redistributing.

In laymans terms...meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

I wanna piggy back on my own comment.

I think theres a substantial number of Pat.net posters who fancy themselves a part of this new "redistributing" class...and I think they'd enjoy the perks of doing so.

Theres no shortage of hypocrites who would absolutely enjoy being the pigs on the farm.

The Professor   befriend   ignore   Sun, 23 Dec 2012, 10:58am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (4)     Comment 28

Poor people spend money. Wealthy people accumulate money. When all the monopoly money is posessed by the rentier class the game is over.