WatchHi guys,
As the old adage states, "Can't live with them, can't live without them."
For the guys that are married now or have been married, I'm wondering what your experience has been and if you could give a newly engaged man (hypothetical to me since I am not engaged) any piece of advise or wisdom, what would it be?
I love my GF, but for a few minutes I'm going to zoom out and look at things from a more technical, statistical, and less emotional point of view.
To be honest, I am a bit discouraged at just how many people I know who don't seem to be too happy in their marriages. It always seems to be the same story. Things started off great. There was excitement, adventure, strong physical and emotional chemistry. Then 2-3yrs into it, those feels started to fade. Some couples moved on to the next phase of their lives and had some glue, er I mean kids which kept things fresh and exciting.
I saw a plot in the newspaper several years back that showed divorce statistics as a function of time. There is a spike early on in the marriage (first couple of years), then one at 7 years (7-year itch), and one at about year 18-20 (when the glue is all grown up). If you make it past that, you are fairly safe (not necessarily happy, but likelihood of divorce is low). Some of that is influenced by the fact that you don't have the same options at 45 or 50 as you do at 25 or 30. Sucks, but that's the truth.
I recall reading a book by psycologist Scott Peck that studied the term "Love." He argues that 100% of relationships fall out of love, usually pretty early on in the first few years. The feeling of love is not true love then. The conscious decision to love someone once you lose the "in love" feeling is what real love is all about.
Regarding statistics, 50% of couples who get married in this country wind up in divorce (To be fair, some of those aren't 1st marriages so that 50% number isn't quite as bad as it seems - The reason is that 2nd marriages have a higher divorce rate than 1st marriages and 3rd marriages have a higher divorce rate than 2nd marriages). Moving on, if 50% of couples get divorced, then 50% of couples don't get divorced. Surely those 50% that remain together aren't all happy marriages? So then let's say that half of the marriages that stay together are happy. That means that 25% of couples getting married in the first place remain happy, lol. I really don't like the odds here!
But anytime you get into this debate, you have to get into the alternative, being alone into older age. As much as I see my folks fight and bicker, I tend to think it's better than the alternative (at least for the level they fight and bicker).
A while back Patrick argued that the average person remains in their purchased home for no more than 6-7 years. He said, you might think you are different, but statistically you are not. Same thing goes for divorce. Nobody goes into marriage thinking they will get a divorce. But statistically, 1 in 2 people do in the USA.
What do you guys think?
As a side note, I am really curious about the following. What is the divorce rate assuming the following:
Both Members are devout Catholic ?
Both Members are devout Christian ?
Both Members are devout Muslim ?
Both Members are Atheist ?
Members don't share religious beliefs ?
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Menlo Park, CA
There are so many disturbed and uninformed comments in this thread that I barely know where to start.
Here's one: divorce rate for 1st marriages between 2 that are highly educated and marry later in life is fairly low. Something like 20%, though happy to see the real stat.Factor in 2 that came from intact families and it improves even more.
To me that points to more success with marriages of equals, more mature than the typical couple, and people that have evidence that marriage has ups and downs but usually works when the deck is stacked correctly.
Marriage with someone from a third world is only successful because the woman had few other options and is making the best of it.
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Menlo Park, CA
Denying women are raped and abused at rates far greater than men smacks of fox news reporting during the election.
Because it is so hard to prove, it is rarely reported or prosecuted, especially in other countries. Haven't you been reading about India this past month?
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Menlo Park, CA
And children need to be someone's priority after they are born. They don't raise themselves.
You want your wife to continue to treat you as her priority? You get what you give.
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anon595 says
This is nonsense. I have a relative who is president of the Eastern European "mail order brides" club in Southern California. Foreign wives who are married to American men are extraordinarily happy. Furthermore they can cook, clean, and take care of the children while these skills are practically banned in the USA.
anon595 says
The divorce rate for 1st time marriages is around 40%. The rate for miserable sexless marriages, marriages where one partner dies before divorce, marriages that are lifelong separations, and marriages for the sake of political and professional necessity are unknown.
Basically the odds suck. While the laws are so abhorrently stacked against men, they should think long and hard before risking their happiness on marriage here.
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Menlo Park, CA
Denying facts doesnt make them any less true. I'm done arguing with an uneducated troll.
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anon595 says
No one did this.
anon595 says
There is a waiting list for adoptions and this issue is fake and disingenuous. The problem is NEVER finding suitable parents and support for a new baby.
What women want is total unhindered freedom to do whatever the fuck they want when they become pregnant with no responsibility or liability whatsoever.
Well guess what! Women have accomplished it and can simply kill their fetus, abandon their baby, or force men and society to pay her to take care of it regardless of how she behaves.
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anon595 says
You actually didn't argue anything. You made a series of blind assertions then left.
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anon595 says
Rubbish. Third world women have to pull their weight. Many are working and taking care of their families. Many times, their men may go off to far off lands to do physical labor, so they can bring back enough money to buy a house or land etc. Women run the show and are quite valued. Here everything is automated and a housewife -especially the upper income ones do nothing and want the moon in a divorce-just because the law allows it. Tiger Woods had to give 100 million dollars for a few years of marraige-how bizarre.
It is not women who are at fault, but the laws which have gone haywire.
anon595 says
Typical response from an ideologue who has no answers and so throws a temper tantrum-I am right and that is the only position there is in the world.
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iwog says
I hesitate to get in to this because of the complexity and subtlety of these issues. I'll say this though. Your bias is interesting.
The discrimination issue is understandable. Women have recently entered domains that were and sometimes still are dominated by men, some of whom are chauvenistic and or misogynistic (especially relative to true equality in the work place).
Then that equality is indeed very much complicated by human sexuality.
And above it all is a sort of inherent "economic" (for a lack of a better term) difference between the sexes. That is that many of us would equate the desire that men have for (attractive) women to be different in nature (if not stronger) than vice versa.
(I'm going to get argument on that, but you should know what I mean.
We're talking biology here, combined with what many centuries of social norms have lead us too. Even most straight women who love men, will admit that either women are inherently more beautiful than men, or at least we have promoted that greatly if it isn't true (religion - and norms a way from excessive hedonism, and toward civilized restraint, and reserving sex at least to some extent to marriage). All these cultural trends and others have led to what I call the economics of the situation.)
If you don't get it. Consider this simple question. Why is it that women even can be prostitutes ? Men can too, but look at the difference. Men and woman are very different, in the mechanics of their sexual urges and also with respect to their appetites and to how desirable they are to the opposite sex.
I think that what Iwog sees as a problem with American women is just where we are now. Men too have expectations and desires that are pretty out of whack compared to a hundred years ago.
I don't know. Maybe Iwog has a point, but I think giving up on American women is somewhat absurd. I know of at least a couple cases of guys marrying foriegn women and it not working out.
The women may be entering in to it with ulterior motives from the start. And they understand the concept of divorce. So some are going to be in it for the citizenship, and thinking, hey, if it doesn't work out, we'll get divorced.
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Gents, haven't you thought that, perhaps the tilted divorce laws are there to prevent a glut of available mature established gentlemen on the dating scene so that the young men have a chance at all?
It was not until after divorce at the end of a decade-long marriage that I realized why the hot chicks in their early to mid-20's were so hard to find when I had been that age.
Consider divorce as a balloon payment or disposition fee on a leased car that you couldn't possibly afford buying when you are young, so you are now free to get a new sporty model. Knowing the "expensive" divorce at the end now, would I have married back then? Absolutely! The first half decade were very happy years, worth every penny. Where else would you be getting off? Renting on a daily basis would have been far more expensive than the long-term lease, not to mention risking blackmail if doing anything in violation of the letter of the law. The kids are much more fun to play with than dogs and cats, and live much longer; just let them know which side of their bread gets buttered.
For the original poster: it's actually not a bad idea to treat her like a lease property that you can not possibly afford buying. Regardless what's said at the altar, the reality is that you do not own her, so do not make investments in her according to ownership of her and thereby having specific expectations on her bending her ways to your liking. At any time she may decide to leave you, and you should consider that as a blessing too as you will be opened to a vast green pasture. That live-and-let-live attitude actually might let the marriage last longer, hopefully your whole life time ;-)
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Thanks Reality, your glass-half-full comment broke the stereotypical pattern that had been forming: male commenters prioritize theory, while female commenters prioritize hard cases (even though hard cases make bad law). Speculation suggests an easy evolutionary explanation: women are on a clock, and must reproduce on or close to schedule, which means our existence depended on our female ancestors making the best of whatever situation life handed them while the men of the world could literally kill each other over theoretical questions like how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. Computer programmers need to think in terms of rules, and tend to be male, which might not be entirely coincidental. Iwog objects rightly that in theory the law discriminates against males, but the famale commenters point out accurately that in practice the women are usually bearing at least as much burden.
All of that leads me to a related policy concern. Educated middle class women are the least likely to have children, in fact a college degree confers a more than 20% risk of dying childless. If any other product were associated with a 20% risk of infertility, it would carry mandatory warning labels and might even be banned, but college degrees are subsidized with student loans. Being a product of my time, I'm all for equality of course, but I worry that Bubbles Ben and others have created a "greater fool" policy environment. As Bacah observed in a different thread, SF Bay's perennial bubbles create a population of ever greater fools. The "howmuchamonth" crowd buy as much as they can borrow (inflated by QE & ZIRP) then end up in Iwog's office seeking bankruptcy relief from commitments they never thought through. Meanwhile, future-minded workers and savers are not reproducing even at replacement rate. I worry that this is unhealthy, what Senator Pat Moynihan called 'speciation', like the 1920's observation that the rich get richer and the poor get children. I worry that Bubbles Ben and endless deficits are creating a context where the thoughtful middle class are getting slowly exterminated, death by demographics, to be replaced by unlucky descendants of the short-sighted bottom quintile serving lucky descendants of the top 1%. And, considering that many of the top 1% are getting and holding that position by fraud and theft, neither group is particularly likely to pass along heritable advantages that would be considered desirable or even advantageous in a different policy environment.
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iwog says
Go ahead but averting your eyes won't make it go away.
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New Renter says
So you are saying consenting sex is rape, just because the woman changes her mind the next day and calls it rape??
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iwog says
Yes, convicted being the key here:
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lostand confused says
You misunderstood my statement. Iwog's denial does not make the problem of non-consensual sex-by-coercion go away.
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And here is a poor young man freed from prison after his "victim" confessed it wasn't rape. He spent six years in prison and lord knows how many times he was raped there. Of course his victim and her mother sued and got 1.5 million dollars.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/05/ex-football-player-breaks-down-after-rape-charge-dismissed.html
Even after this, they didn't have to return the money and do not face criminal charges either. How many such men are there?
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iwog says
LOL!
If you feel so strongly about this try cutting your rents to a point where your tennants can AFFORD to have a spouse stay home.
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lostand confused says
After the alleged rape, no male DNA had been detected on Gibson’s underwear, court papers said. Also, the classmate Gibson first told about the alleged attack -- via the note -- said Gibson later admitted to making up the story so her mom wouldn’t find out she was sexually active, attorneys said.
I am not advocating such travesties, and YES this is a clear travesty. My point has to do with women who are trafficked into a life of prostitution by professionals. The coercion there is mainly economic and psychological. This is the reality I am concerned Iwog is trying to deny exists.
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New Renter says
Non-consensual-sex-by-coercion is utter bullshit. You have pretty much stated that women are incapable of making informed decisions about sexual politics and therefore cannot be trusted with power over their own bodies.
Welcome to the 19th century.
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iwog says
And where have I "pretty much stated that women are incapable of making informed decisions about sexual politics and therefore cannot be trusted with power over their own bodies. "?
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New Renter says
It's implied obviously. What is sex by coercion if it's not a woman saying "yes" when she really means "no"? Can women be trusted to make their own decisions or can't they?
You can't have it both ways. There are only two kinds of sex between a man and a woman:
1. Forcible rape
2. Consensual sex
Period. The grey area is a fucked up and vile construct of the feminist movement which has sought and largely succeeded in making the criminality of sex dependent on how the woman feels after the fact.
"Was she too drunk to give consent?"
"Gee, I don't know. Why don't we ask her when she wakes up with a hangover."
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Well Patrick that's what your website has morphed into. If I am interested in such raunch I would find it elsewhere.
It's been fun.
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iwog says
How binding is a legal contract when signed by a person man OR woman who is known to be intoxicated, especially when the other party made a point of getting them drunk to entice the signing?
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New Renter says
Depends on the contract. You can certainly be held liable for gambling debts incurred while drunk. Do you really think you're entitled to get your money back from the casino because your judgement was impaired?
Besides it doesn't matter. It's not a criminal act to entice a drunk person to sign a contract. You don't completely ruin a man's life because he takes you to the pub before selling you a car.
Of course if someone is unconscious it's another story and consent obviously can't be given therefore it is clearly rape. If there are witnesses the man can and should be convicted.
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iwog says
There is a reason why the alcoholic beverages are complimentary at the casino.
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iwog says
Don't know, haven't tried it. Could set an interesting precedent if it worked though.
iwog says
Perhaps not provided the person selling the car did not take advantage of the buyers inebriation in order to fail to disclose serious issues with the car.
If a man decides say to fail to put on a condom but pretends to do so to "close the deal" with a person he has purposefully inebriated and that person ends up pregnant or infected because of the man's callousness you don't believe the man should be prosecuted for that?
Anyway it is becoming clear to me that we are arguing apples and oranges here. I don't think you support human trafficking or spousal abuse nor do I believe that a person should be able to take advantage of the law to improve their situation at the ruination of another.
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New Renter says
Are you saying that a woman can't be bothered with the responsibility to make sure her lover is wearing a condom, and that lying about it should change the encounter to rape with a 10-year prison sentence?
There are only two types of intercourse:
1. Forcible rape
2. Consensual sex
The quicker we make women responsible for their own decisions, (or inattention to detail) the healthier our society will become.
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Valentines Day law firm special - free divorce contest:
http://www.wbentleylaw.com/freedivorcecontest.html
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While we can improve on dynamics of man/woman relationships in america, I think that the countries where the man is solely measured by his paycheck and the woman is solely expected to be an obedient homemaker is the ultimate form of bastardly degradation.
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iwog says
Perhaps each encounter should be required by law to be videotaped by an independent witness to ensure no misunderstandings or shenanigans occur. Would THAT satisfy you?
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iwog says
How long is the waiting list for non-white children? Or how about special needs kids?
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New Renter says
There's an app for that!
It's also reportedly a hidden feature of many hotels.
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curious2 says
Well whadda know!
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New Renter says
I'm not the one who needs to be satisfied, you are. I actually think women should take responsibility for their own actions including sexual behavior. I think men accused of rape are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt which MUST include more evidence than the testimony of the alleged victim.
If a woman isn't confident enough of her ability to thwart sexual advances, then by all means she should take precautions including videotaping her encounters.
New Renter says
I don't care. Any women at any time can abort, adopt out, or abandon a non-white or special needs child. This is a matter of equal protection under the law and men are being discriminated against.
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Free divorce for Valentine's Day
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2277216/Free-divorce-Valentines-Day-Attorney-launches-unorthodox-competition-help-unhappy-couples-forward.html#axzz2JiANsxMo
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Oxygen says
Here’s my analysis of the link you posted: Don’t be a rung on someone else’s climb on the social ladder. Guard your heart carefully. Don’t trust beyond your ability to survive betrayals cost. Most will use you to better themselves and discard you when temptation surpasses their ability to control their own greed.
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Here's one that requires deep, deep metaphorical analysis by all who dare to read further (don't read this). On the surface, it sounds so very simple, but in the end (no pun intended), can be most cleansing:
“He who eats too many prunes will sit on toilet for many moons.”
After reading the above quote, one must ask, “What is my prune and where is my toilet?”
The next quote is near and dear to my heart. This one I especially love. It drives me to be a better individual:
“That which we hate most is within us.”
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This is a link to two things I most hold dear in life. It is these things that I find make life most worth living.
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