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For the Married Guys (And the Guys Who Have Been Married)


By BayArea   Follow   Fri, 28 Dec 2012, 2:55am PST   36,732 views   675 comments   Watch (4)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

Hi guys,

As the old adage states, "Can't live with them, can't live without them."

For the guys that are married now or have been married, I'm wondering what your experience has been and if you could give a newly engaged man (hypothetical to me since I am not engaged) any piece of advise or wisdom, what would it be?

I love my GF, but for a few minutes I'm going to zoom out and look at things from a more technical, statistical, and less emotional point of view.

To be honest, I am a bit discouraged at just how many people I know who don't seem to be too happy in their marriages. It always seems to be the same story. Things started off great. There was excitement, adventure, strong physical and emotional chemistry. Then 2-3yrs into it, those feels started to fade. Some couples moved on to the next phase of their lives and had some glue, er I mean kids which kept things fresh and exciting.

I saw a plot in the newspaper several years back that showed divorce statistics as a function of time. There is a spike early on in the marriage (first couple of years), then one at 7 years (7-year itch), and one at about year 18-20 (when the glue is all grown up). If you make it past that, you are fairly safe (not necessarily happy, but likelihood of divorce is low). Some of that is influenced by the fact that you don't have the same options at 45 or 50 as you do at 25 or 30. Sucks, but that's the truth.

I recall reading a book by psycologist Scott Peck that studied the term "Love." He argues that 100% of relationships fall out of love, usually pretty early on in the first few years. The feeling of love is not true love then. The conscious decision to love someone once you lose the "in love" feeling is what real love is all about.

Regarding statistics, 50% of couples who get married in this country wind up in divorce (To be fair, some of those aren't 1st marriages so that 50% number isn't quite as bad as it seems - The reason is that 2nd marriages have a higher divorce rate than 1st marriages and 3rd marriages have a higher divorce rate than 2nd marriages). Moving on, if 50% of couples get divorced, then 50% of couples don't get divorced. Surely those 50% that remain together aren't all happy marriages? So then let's say that half of the marriages that stay together are happy. That means that 25% of couples getting married in the first place remain happy, lol. I really don't like the odds here!

But anytime you get into this debate, you have to get into the alternative, being alone into older age. As much as I see my folks fight and bicker, I tend to think it's better than the alternative (at least for the level they fight and bicker).

A while back Patrick argued that the average person remains in their purchased home for no more than 6-7 years. He said, you might think you are different, but statistically you are not. Same thing goes for divorce. Nobody goes into marriage thinking they will get a divorce. But statistically, 1 in 2 people do in the USA.

What do you guys think?

As a side note, I am really curious about the following. What is the divorce rate assuming the following:

Both Members are devout Catholic ?
Both Members are devout Christian ?
Both Members are devout Muslim ?
Both Members are Atheist ?
Members don't share religious beliefs ?

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Ironman   befriend   ignore   Thu, 7 Feb 2013, 2:26am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 516

zzyzzx says

Wiseman says

You will never be her first priority. Her children are (or will be)

Already pretty high on my long list of reasons not to have kids, but thanks for the reminder!

Hey, one plus with kids is, she can go bitch at THEM instead of bitching at YOU!!

epitaph   befriend   ignore   Thu, 7 Feb 2013, 2:43am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 517

FortWayne says

or turn homosexual.

Not sure if that was a joke or you are being serious.

iwog   befriend   ignore   Sat, 9 Feb 2013, 9:27am PST   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 518

merlino says

You guys must have been burned real bad!

I may be an exemption but I have been happily married to an american woman for 15 years and we met when we were 14 years old. We have two young kids and we still have date nights and we try to dress nice and have the butterflies. What else can one asked? Also, with tax season I realized how big interests and taxes deductions can be. Buying a new house has been the best move ever. it costs me 3000$ a month in a house that would cost easily 4500$ to rent. No brainer...

Being burned isn't the issue. It's all about playing the odds.

There are good women in the United States who would certainly make excellent wives, however it's a numbers game. Do you want to marry into a culture where your odds of being happy are 40% or 80%?

New Renter   befriend   ignore   Sat, 9 Feb 2013, 12:17pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 519

iwog says

Mick Russom says

The greedy stuff you do, like live off the ill gotten rentier income scammed off the working class, is the reason you dont like American woman. The credit card using greedy selfish types.

The mirror is tough to be married to.

Naw, not really. I married a gem. It's the men and women who come into my office that give me insight.

I'll even concede that perhaps 40% of American chicks have potential to be good mates. However those odds suck in my opinion so I'm going to act accordingly.

As for you, I suggest you let go of some of your hate before it wrecks you.

As did I. We were together for the better part of a decade before we were married. We went through a lot of good time, bad times, and poor times. I think THAT is the best insurance one can take to making sure you are marrying one of the good ones.

Not sure about Iwog's statistics, but he does have a good point given >50% of marriages end in divorce now.

50% percent of first marriages, 67% of second and 74% of third marriages end in divorce, according to Jennifer Baker of the Forest Institute of Professional Psychology in Springfield, Missouri.

According to enrichment journal on the divorce rate in America:

The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%
The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%
The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%

http://www.divorcerate.org/

MsBennet   befriend   ignore   Sat, 9 Feb 2013, 12:22pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 520

zzyzzx says

Wiseman says

You will never be her first priority. Her children are (or will be)ome

Already pretty high on my long list of reasons not to have kids, but thanks for the reminder!

When a boy becomes and man, he leaves childish things behind. After all, it's only for 18 years and you are bringing up and nuturing another human being into this world, so you can put some of your needs aside and not be the center of your universe for that amount of time at least.

Oxygen   befriend   ignore   Sat, 9 Feb 2013, 12:31pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 521

Wiseman says

/Users/bob/Desktop/Tiffany.jpg

lol

New Renter   befriend   ignore   Sat, 9 Feb 2013, 12:47pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 522

MsBennet says

zzyzzx says

Wiseman says

You will never be her first priority. Her children are (or will be)ome

Already pretty high on my long list of reasons not to have kids, but thanks for the reminder!

When a boy becomes and man, he leaves childish things behind. After all, it's only for 18 years and you are bringing up and nuturing another human being into this world, so you can put some of your needs aside and not be the center of your universe for that amount of time at least.

I take it you are not familiar with the boomerangs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang_Generation

iwog   befriend   ignore   Sat, 9 Feb 2013, 1:22pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (4)   Dislike     Comment 523

MsBennet says

When a boy becomes and man, he leaves childish things behind. After all, it's only for 18 years and you are bringing up and nuturing another human being into this world, so you can put some of your needs aside and not be the center of your universe for that amount of time at least.

Unless you're a woman. Then you can have an abortion, adopt out, or simply abandon a child at a police or fire station anonymously. Women have unlimited ways of simply walking away from their 18-year responsibility. All legal.

Men have no rights whatsoever and at the moment of conception they lose their rights to self-determination. American society (and much of the western world) is extremely hostile to men.

New Renter   befriend   ignore   Sat, 9 Feb 2013, 1:44pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 524

iwog says

American society (and much of the western world) is extremely hostile to men.

With the rest of the world even more hostile to women...

lostand confused   befriend   ignore   Sat, 9 Feb 2013, 1:46pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 525

New Renter says

iwog says



American society (and much of the western world) is extremely hostile to men.


With the rest of the world even more hostile to women...

Two wrongs don't make a right .

lostand confused   befriend   ignore   Sat, 9 Feb 2013, 1:48pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 526

MsBennet says

When a boy becomes and man, he leaves childish things behind. After all, it's
only for 18 years and you are bringing up and nuturing another human being into
this world, so you can put some of your needs aside and not be the center of
your universe for that amount of time at least.

Same for a woman. When a girl turns 18, she becomes a woman- an equal person who is responsible for herself and her decisions. Not rely on a man to take care of her for life-that is a husband, not a daddy. The laws need to change to reflect the current reality of equality.

iwog   befriend   ignore   Sat, 9 Feb 2013, 10:04pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 527

New Renter says

iwog says

American society (and much of the western world) is extremely hostile to men.

With the rest of the world even more hostile to women...

I don't live in the rest of the world however I would argue that in many nations, women enjoy freedom and an equal share of responsibility.

Eliza   befriend   ignore   Sun, 10 Feb 2013, 12:52am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 528

The reality of equality may not exist in the real world. When people marry, their priorities mix. If she, or he, is a lagging spouse, moving to support their spouse's career goals, then their post-divorce options are not equal. If someone stays home with the kids for a few years, perhaps because it makes financial sense within the context of the marriage, that person will most likely make less money for the rest of their life. Women are more likely to sacrifice their career goals for family, but men sometimes do it, too. It would be utterly unfair to ignore those circumstances. If someone prioritizes family and their spouse's career, then they do really need to be compensated for what they gave up.

Reality   befriend   ignore   Sun, 10 Feb 2013, 1:36am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 529

Many females make a career out of roosting the nest by choice. In fact, I had to pay my ex-wife with an extra allowance to incentivise her to keep working outside the family, that's on top of hiring two full-time nannies working in two shifts so she could keep a part time consulting job in her field that paid very well.

That being said, I don't find it especially objectionable to have the divorce laws somewhat tilted in favor of women: women have much shorter marketable shelf life. When a man and a woman get married in their mid to late 20's, the woman's market value on average is much higher than the man's simply due to her youth and sex appeal (another way of saying how the male population is hard wired). After 10 years of marriage, by the time of their late 30's, the woman's shelf life will have nearly expired as far as finding life time mates is concerned whereas the man is still quite marketable, perhaps even more marketable than 10 years earlier if he has made something of himself.

Back to the original poster: if you want the marriage to last, spoil her on little things but always let her know who's in charge on important decisions in your lives. Despite all the talks of gender equality, women want men whom they can look up to. It's hard to do when your ages are really close, but try to remember that she will get bored and leave you when you suplicate her too much and let her be in control of you (and yes she will try instinctively without even intentionally doing it). Haven't you noticed how many women want little puppies and kitties? They always want a new one after having had the old one for a few years. Don't become one of her house broken pets. Otherwise, you might be the nicest man in the world, but people only appreciate that which they have lost . . . that applies to woman as well as to man.

Eliza says

The reality of equality may not exist in the real world. When people marry, their priorities mix. If she, or he, is a lagging spouse, moving to support their spouse's career goals, then their post-divorce options are not equal. If someone stays home with the kids for a few years, perhaps because it makes financial sense within the context of the marriage, that person will most likely make less money for the rest of their life. Women are more likely to sacrifice their career goals for family, but men sometimes do it, too. It would be utterly unfair to ignore those circumstances. If someone prioritizes family and their spouse's career, then they do really need to be compensated for what they gave up.

MsBennet   befriend   ignore   Sun, 10 Feb 2013, 1:46am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 530

iwog says

MsBennet says

When a boy becomes and man, he leaves childish things behind. After all, it's only for 18 years and you are bringing up and nuturing another human being into this world, so you can put some of your needs aside and not be the center of your universe for that amount of time at least.

Unless you're a woman. Then you can have an abortion, adopt out, or simply abandon a child at a police or fire station anonymously. Women have unlimited ways of simply walking away from their 18-year responsibility. All legal.

Men have no rights whatsoever and at the moment of conception they lose their rights to self-determination. American society (and much of the western world) is extremely hostile to men.

Of all the divorced women with kids that I know personally, the father gives about 10% of the money and effort (if that) into raising a kid. My sister-in-law's husband chose never to see his kids again and never supported them (then was hurt when he wasn't invited to their wedding doh!) That's just one example, and I know of many, in fact, the majority of divorcees I know.

lostand confused   befriend   ignore   Sun, 10 Feb 2013, 1:48am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 531

Eliza says

The reality of equality may not exist in the real world. When people marry, their priorities mix. If she, or he, is a lagging spouse, moving to support their spouse's career goals, then their post-divorce options are not equal. If someone stays home with the kids for a few years, perhaps because it makes financial sense within the context of the marriage, that person will most likely make less money for the rest of their life. Women are more likely to sacrifice their career goals for family, but men sometimes do it, too. It would be utterly unfair to ignore those circumstances. If someone prioritizes family and their spouse's career, then they do really need to be compensated for what they gave up.

That is a choice. I work mostly in IT and have worked in many parts of the country. For some reason, I have had more women bosses than men-very capabale women with kids and families, who have managed to juggle everything and still rise. Yes some were divorced and remarried, others took a lower level job for a while till the kids grew up and then climbed back. If they can do it, then the ones who choose to stay at home are making a choice and should not be rewarded for that. In today's world, you have washing machines, vacuum cleaners, cars, ready made food, clothes, 24/7 electricity and maybe 1 or 2 kids. It is not like back then when you popped 13 kids, had to gather firewood, milk the cows, tend to the harvest, keep enough food stored for the winter , cook and clean and take care of all 13 kids.

You asked for equality and got it-now act like an equal. Can't have your cake and eat it too. Today's divorce and bizarre child support laws does not encourage women to be independendant. There is great dignity in working for yourself and earning your own money and contributing equally.

iwog   befriend   ignore   Sun, 10 Feb 2013, 1:50am PST   Share   Quote   Like (3)   Dislike     Comment 532

Eliza says

If someone stays home with the kids for a few years, perhaps because it makes financial sense within the context of the marriage, that person will most likely make less money for the rest of their life. Women are more likely to sacrifice their career goals for family, but men sometimes do it, too. It would be utterly unfair to ignore those circumstances

I don't have any problem with the state of divorce in the early 1950s. What I find abhorrent and vile are the following. They have no business in a free society and should be exterminated:

1. Spousal support of any kind for any reason if there are no children.
2. No fault divorce.
3. Child support obligations for an unmarried male under all circumstances.
4. Laws that allow a woman to abandon all responsibility for children while holding men accountable.
5. Rape convictions where there is no evidence other than the personal testimony of the two involved.

No doubt 5 needs clarification.

5. In the United States, a man is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I hold that no matter how believable the woman is at a rape trial, it is a legal impossibility to EVER prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt if the only evidence is he-said, she-said. The fact that there are men serving time for rape convictions in cases where the "victim" hasn't even taken the stand is a sick atrocity and a horrible indictment of this country. Sex crimes are the modern incarnation of the Salem Witch Trials.

iwog   befriend   ignore   Sun, 10 Feb 2013, 1:52am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 533

MsBennet says

Of all the divorced women with kids that I know personally, the father gives about 10% of the money and effort (if that) into raising a kid. My sister-in-law's husband chose never to see his kids again and never supported them (then was hurt when he wasn't invited to their wedding doh!) That's just one example, and I know of many, in fact, the majority of divorcees I know.

That is really not the point. Why does the law give a woman multiple ways to abandon all responsibility towards her children while FORCING men to be responsible for nearly two decades?

Wasn't slavery abolished?

New Renter   befriend   ignore   Sun, 10 Feb 2013, 2:05am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 534

iwog says

I don't live in the rest of the world

You may not realize it but the rest of the world is coming to you:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2055445,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/29/alleged-honor-killing-suspect-yaser-said-could-be-hiding-in-plain-sight-as-new/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Shaima_Alawadi

iwog says

however I would argue that in many nations, women enjoy freedom and an equal share of responsibility.

Which probably amounts to 1/1000th of the world population while the "hostile to women" is a FAR larger population.

New Renter   befriend   ignore   Sun, 10 Feb 2013, 2:58am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 535

iwog says

MsBennet says

Of all the divorced women with kids that I know personally, the father gives about 10% of the money and effort (if that) into raising a kid. My sister-in-law's husband chose never to see his kids again and never supported them (then was hurt when he wasn't invited to their wedding doh!) That's just one example, and I know of many, in fact, the majority of divorcees I know.

That is really not the point. Why does the law give a woman multiple ways to abandon all responsibility towards her children while FORCING men to be responsible for nearly two decades?

Wasn't slavery abolished?

Probably because it has been even easier for a man to abandon all responsibility. Granted with cheap, accurate paternity testing it is no longer so easy for men to run away.

Some men have found their own way of handling things:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/california-dad-cameron-brown-hurled-daughter-4-cliff-avoid-child-support-prosecutor-article-1.426186

http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/add_images.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2208216/Man-29-killed-ex-girlfriend-26-burned-baby-boy-child-support-payments.html

http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/crime/Man-killed-his-ex-over-child-support

http://www.cbs8.com/story/11457118/man-who-killed-woman-and-baby-to-avoid-child-support-gets-life-term

These stories do make a strong case for reform. They make a stronger case for women to not have children with psychopaths.

iwog   befriend   ignore   Sun, 10 Feb 2013, 3:20am PST   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 536

New Renter says

Probably because it has been even easier for a man to abandon all responsibility. Granted with cheap, accurate paternity testing it is no longer so easy for men to run away.

I couldn't disagree more unless you're talking about 50 years ago. Genetic testing has been around since 1985 and prior to that the presumption of parenthood was forced on men who were married regardless of who the actual father was.

As for your list of criminal acts, I don't think lunatics are relevant.

Women have ALWAYS had a remedy anyway: Marriage. Men should have zero responsibility towards unwanted children in the exact same way that women do unless there's a marriage contract guaranteeing otherwise.

New Renter says

Which probably amounts to 1/1000th of the world population while the "hostile to women" is a FAR larger population.

I'm sorry I simply don't agree with you. Islamic nations have well known discrimination issues against women however I don't see this in South America, most of Asia, and Eastern Europe.

Women vote, hold property, make contracts, and are the presumed guardians of young children. The difference is that they are held accountable for their reckless behavior.

New Renter   befriend   ignore   Sun, 10 Feb 2013, 4:15am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 537

iwog says

I'm sorry I simply don't agree with you. Islamic nations have well known discrimination issues against women however I don't see this in South America, most of Asia, and Eastern Europe.

Around the world at least one woman in every three has been beaten, coerced into sex, or otherwise abused in her lifetime. Every year, violence in the home and the community devastates the lives of millions of women. Gender-based violence kills and disables as many women between the ages of 15 and 44 as cancer, and its toll on women's health surpasses that of traffic accidents and malaria combined.1 Violence against women is rooted in a global culture of discrimination which denies women equal rights with men and which legitimizes the appropriation of women's bodies for individual gratification or political ends.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/women-s-rights/violence-against-women/violence-against-women-information

India, Pakistan and Bangladesh: Bride burning is still widely practiced:
http://www.examiner.com/article/bride-burning-india-pakistan-and-bangladesh-is-acceptable-murder

Africa: Rape:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1906000,00.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/Africa-Monitor/2011/0512/Shocking-Congo-rape-statistics-show-husbands-not-just-soldiers-rebels-perpetuate-the-problem

China, India, Caucuses: Sex selective infanticide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-selective_infanticide

Dr Strangelove   befriend   ignore   Sun, 10 Feb 2013, 4:18am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 538

"First thing you must remember, You will never be her first priority. Her children are (or will be) "

In response to the above, I would suggest ANY Male considering marriage to take a long, careful look at the woman they're thinking of marrying and ask themselves the following critically important question...

Does this woman feel having children is part of our relationship together, or is our relationship (to her) part of us having children?

Just my .02

DOC

iwog   befriend   ignore   Sun, 10 Feb 2013, 4:30am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 539

New Renter says

Around the world at least one woman in every three has been beaten, coerced into sex, or otherwise abused in her lifetime.

I reject this statistic. "Coerced into sex" especially. Women do not get to share the same freedoms as men and then pretend they are innocent delicate little flowers who succumb to the wiles of men when they accidentally make a poor choice of sex partners. There are only two categories and zero grey areas: Forcible rape and consensual se