Have you ever forgiven someone? If so, who needs God to forgive a second time?


By Greatest I am   Follow   Wed, 2 Jan 2013, 5:07pm   4,295 views   136 comments
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Have you ever forgiven someone? If so, who needs God to forgive a second time?

It is to the one sinned against to have the first right of forgiving when forgiving is possible. That would be most sins and crimes save murder.

I have had the pleasure to forgive on a few occasions. I will assume here that you have also forgiven someone at some point in your life. I have had that pleasure after the pain and hope you have as well. I have stepped up to ask for forgiveness as well after sinning against someone and am thankful that people can and do forgive. This benefit I also hope you have enjoyed.

Our consciousness and ego are what we use to judge what should be forgiven. If we lose that ability to judge or if it is usurped, damage is done to our consciousness and ego. It would negate intelligent use of our freedom of choice. It would negate our free will and deny us closure.

The Government has taken our freedom of the body from us with various restrictions. Everything from what we consume to our right to die with dignity. God has taken our freedom of choice after death from us with his judgement. Jesus has taken our freedom to face our accuser from us by saying --- only through me --- as our only judge.

These usurping of your free will to forgive means that you could never get closure from offence and hurt.
That would make Jesus as big of a disgrace as his father in ignoring our free willed choices. People judge constantly. We cannot help but to do so. To have our judgements usurped or ignored shows a flaw in the justice system you follow, be it secular or religious.

The God of the Jews who evolved to be the Christian God had a different view of forgiveness than Jesus had even though Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. Jesus as God would be from the Christian perspective. Not the Jewish one that has the majority of Jews as never accepting Jesus as their messiah. The claims to judging and Jesus’ status, or not, --- as a messiah--- needs not be discussed in this O P.

“Jewish belief states that G-d doesn't forgive our sins against others until we ask and receive forgiveness directly from the person we wronged.”

“In Judaism, the acts of repentance and forgiveness are inextricably linked, and we must never let our anger toward others cause us to lose sight of self-reflection and cleansing.”

http://www.thepowerofforgiveness.com/pdf/A_Jewish_Perspective_on_Forgiveness.pdf

Did Christianity and their version of the Jewish God usurp your power and benefits of forgiving?
Does that negate your free will, and your right to forgive?

Regards
DL

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  1. Bap33


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    97   2:42pm Sat 5 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    thunderlips11 says

    "IF you believe in my Jewish Carpenter Zombie who lived in a rebellious
    backwater of the Roman Empire 2000 years ago, based on heresay, I won't send you
    to burn and suffer eternally in hell."

    dont forget, his coming was fortold. That was a kinda new twist to things.

  2. Peter P


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    98   2:48pm Sat 5 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    thunderlips11 says

    Peter P says

    Raw says

    If God exists he has plans to torture me till eternity. Why would I trust or want anything from someone with such a motive?

    Do you even understand what grace means?

    "IF you believe in my Jewish Carpenter Zombie who lived in a rebellious backwater of the Roman Empire 2000 years ago, based on heresay, I won't send you to burn and suffer eternally in hell."

    I thought grace is simply doing something beautiful without being required to do so.

    In a religious-agnostic way, divine grace is simply grace performed by a willful God.

    Is it necessary that God be willful?

  3. Dan8267


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    99   3:47pm Sat 5 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    All system of knowledge can only create knowledge that fits inside their systems.

    Actually, that's neither a tautology nor true. The tautology you are aiming for is A system of knowledge can only incorporate knowledge that fits within itself. A system, in general, could of course produce knowledge that doesn't fit within the original system's bounds by creating a revised system. Science does this all the time. Example: The Theory of Relativity subsumes Newton's Theory of Gravity as a limiting case.

  4. Peter P


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    100   3:50pm Sat 5 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Fine. You win. :-)

  5. Dan8267


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    101   3:51pm Sat 5 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    It's not about winning. It's about clarifying.

  6. Greatest I am


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    102   10:47am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    Greatest I am says

    Peter P says

    God is not manmade. The concept and understanding of God is.

    I think the most basic definition of God is that He was self-caused.

    A clear logical fallacy.

    There must be a thought existing to say something like --- I will create me --- but who is having that thought.

    If you can answer that then you can answer, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

    Regards

    DL

    Ever heard of infinite regression?

    Yes.

    Now deal with my question and do not just try to sidestep it.

    Regards
    DL

  7. Greatest I am


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    103   10:53am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    Greatest I am says

    I beg to differ and think that in a survival sense that morals are hard wired into our DNA. I offer these as an argument.

    Our culture is a form of moral relativism. It is not surprising that we consider things most people do, innately or not, as "moral."

    Besides, we cannot fully take moral responsibility if we do not set the initial conditions.

    We not not totally "free" to make moral decisions because we react to "decisions" made by others.

    Hogwash.

    We choose according to all we know plus our hardwired sense of morality.

    Stop hiding in other peoples clichés and pet phrases.

    Regards
    DL

  8. Peter P


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    104   10:56am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Greatest I am says

    Now deal with my question and do not just try to sidestep it.

    I just did. Infinite regression takes the paradox out of self-causation.

  9. Greatest I am


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    105   10:56am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    Funny thing about Science, it's been wrong - alot - since it was first invented by man.

    `

    Yes. And it knows enough to correct it`s mistakes as new information comes in instead of ignoring mew and better ideas the way religions have.

    Science is self-correcting while religions wait for their fantasy Gods to correct their more stupid ideas and will li.ve with them forever as they wait for their fantasy to become real.

    Regards
    DL

  10. Peter P


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    106   10:57am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Greatest I am says

    We choose according to all we know plus our hardwired sense of morality.

    There is no hardwired sense of morality.

    People took some of our hardwired behaviors and called them morality.

  11. Greatest I am


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    107   11:00am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Raw says

    Thank You science......

    http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=wo_t5#/video/world/2013/01/04/pkg-chance-uk-safer-world.cnn

    You fear what your God already embraces. The genocide of mankind. Remember Noah?

    God is good. Not.

    Regards
    DL

  12. Peter P


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    108   11:06am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Greatest I am says

    Science is self-correcting while religions wait for their fantasy Gods to correct their more stupid ideas and will li.ve with them forever as they wait for their fantasy to become real.

    Market is self-correcting. Science is just the sum of all scientific egos.

  13. Dan8267


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    109   11:55am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    I just did. Infinite regression takes the paradox out of self-causation.

    Following that idea, there is no god, no creator of the universe. Time dilation simply approaches infinity as you approach the Big Bang. No causality for nature itself, no god.

  14. Dan8267


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    110   11:55am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Greatest I am says

    eligions wait for their fantasy Gods to correct their more stupid ideas and will li.ve with them forever as they wait for their fantasy to become real

    This is called, "the god of the gaps" argument.

  15. Dan8267


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    111   11:59am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    There is no hardwired sense of morality.

    Additionally, squirrels will sacrifice their own lives to save other close family members. Meerkats will risk their lives to save the offspring of others.

    There is much hardwired sense of morality in our species and others. This hardwiring is the result of evolution. Now, now all of morality is hardwired though. Brains continue to develop morality where genes left off.

  16. Dan8267


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    112   12:03pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    Market is self-correcting.

    The market never learns from its mistakes.

    Peter P says

    Science is just the sum of all scientific egos.

    Never has such a blatantly false statement been made on this site. An infinite sum of egos could not achieve placing a man on the moon and returning him safely to Earth. That takes knowledge, understanding, skill, and productivity. And that is but one of a multitude of accomplishments of science.

    That Internet thingy that you are using to have this argument, is another accomplishment of science. As is the doubling of the human life span, the virtual elimination of childbirth deaths for both baby and mother, the ability to communicate and travel anywhere in the world, air-conditioning, and all the things that make life today comfortable and safe.

  17. Peter P


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    113   12:11pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Dan8267 says

    The market never learns from its mistakes.

    No matter how much I wanted that to be true, the market is really very good at making itself efficient. Otherwise, why would old trading models stop working?

    Dan8267 says

    An infinite sum of egos could not achieve placing a man on the moon and returning him safely to Earth.

    Yet without which we would not have to go there at all? The moon is not made of cheese, you know? :-)

    Dan8267 says

    As is the doubling of the human life span

    Not sure if that is a good thing.

    And do not confuse science with technology. The creative spark is a very intuitive thing. Science might have been use to validate theories, but it is more of a matter of epistemology.

    Note that I am not dissing mathematics, logic, and other form of reasoning.

    I am pointing out the empirical nature of inductive reasoning and its limitations.

  18. Peter P


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    114   12:13pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    There is no profit in going to the moon per se. It was an amazing feat, and it stroked a lot of ego, but so what?

    Things might have been invented or improved as a side-effect. Then it is really a matter of marketing and financing.

  19. Dan8267


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    115   12:17pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    No matter how much I wanted that to be true, the market is really very good at making itself efficient.

    If the market were efficient, then the Goldman Sachs of the world would be out of business. As much as I wished the market was efficient and self-correcting, it is not. If the market actually learned from its mistakes and improved itself, the housing bubble would have never happened.

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/339761-just-how-efficient-is-the-market

    Robert Shiller showed back in 1981 that stock price volatility is far too high to be attributed to new information about future real dividends

    Research by Abarbanell and Bernard at Michigan University has shown that companies that surprise with higher than expected profits do not instantly get repriced. 25 to 30% of the repricing happens up to six months after the initial news.

    Even the father of efficient market theory, Eugene Fama, has cast doubt on its validity by showing that small cap stocks and low price to book stocks outperform the efficient market model

    Josef Lakonishok, Joseph Piotroksi and David Dreman in many different studies have shown that value stocks based on low price to book, low price to earnings and other metrics significantly outperform glamour stocks.

    As just one of several identified momentum effects, research by George and Hwang found that stocks near their 52-week highs tend to be systematically undervalued (investors use this level as an “anchor”, so they tend to be reluctant to buy a stock as it nears this point regardless of new positive information).

  20. Peter P


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    116   12:23pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Dan8267 says

    If the market were efficient, then the Goldman Sachs of the world would be out of business. As much as I wished the market was efficient and self-correcting, it is not. If the market actually learned from its mistakes and improved itself, the housing bubble would have never happened.

    I think you have an overly simplistic view of market efficiency. Rent-seeking can be profitable even in the face of market efficiency.

    The market is self-correcting, yet it may not happening. It is just being as efficient as possible.

    That said, the market is NOT completely efficient. It is about 97% (just a number I pulled from my ass). It corrects inefficiencies, but there will always be the new ones.

    And by the way, the market is a representation of expectations, not of established facts. Of course the stock prices will diverge from what a value model will predict.

    The market is about crowd psychology.

  21. Dan8267


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    117   12:24pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    Yet without which we would not have to go there at all? The moon is not made of cheese, you know? :-)

    Keep believing that Medieval society could put man on the moon if you like. That's a delusion.

    Peter P says

    Dan8267 says

    As is the doubling of the human life span

    Not sure if that is a good thing.

    Whether or not you consider it a good thing, it is certainly an impressive and important accomplishment. I, for one, will gladly take the second half of my lifespan.

    Peter P says

    There is no profit in going to the moon per se. It was an amazing feat, and it stroked a lot of ego, but so what?

    After discovering the basic principle of electromagnetic induction in 1831, Michael Faraday was asked by a skeptical politician, William Gladstone, what good might come of electricity. "Sir, I do not know what it is good for," Faraday replied. "But of one thing I am quite certain - someday you will tax it."

    Today electricity is the basis of our entire civilization, and yes, it is taxed.

    The benefits of space exploration are long term, but without space exploration our species will most certainly die when our sun exhausts its nuclear fuel. Most likely, there will be a plenitude of material benefits long before that happens.

    How profitable is space exploration? Would you like a solid block of gold the size of Mount Everest? There is more gold in the solar system than has ever been mined in all of human history. And that's just one thing.

  22. Dan8267


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    118   12:26pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The bottom line is that science's track record has been stellar, whereas religion's track record has been abysmal. No amount of turd polishing or poo-pooing can change that. The difference is so stark that any attempt to make religion look even nearly as good as science is laughable.

  23. Peter P


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    119   12:34pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Dan8267 says

    The bottom line is that science's track record has been stellar, whereas religion's track record has been abysmal.

    The Pope would disagree.

    Science is a VERY useful tool. But we just need to know its limitations.

  24. Bap33


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    120   2:29pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    There is more gold in the solar system than has ever been mined in all of human
    history. And that's just one thing.

    gold is only valuable because it is rare ... on earth. Breathable air is valuable in space, but cheap on earth.

    I think Dr. DeGrasse says that we (our human bodies) are made up with the exact same percentages of the elements as the universe. That's pretty cool. God is a clever operator.

    p.s., Science has been wrong a billion times, but it has the auto-correct function of being a never-ending-quest for answers (a good thing, in my opinion). Science (and all of the names it was called before 1600 A.D.) has been off the mark a few times. Lets not forget, the creation "myth" was deemed correct by science about 7,000 years after it was "wrote" down. Between the time it was wrote down, and about 1920, science was not sure of the ordering of the appearance of life on earth, (you know, water plants, water animals, land plants, land animals, and the very very last thing -- man) Ancient text had it right, and then science found it out! p.s.s. the creation myth had nothing to do with religion, it was just the answer to "how did we get here".

  25. Peter P


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    121   2:31pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    I will not be surprised if a civilization on earth 10000 years ago had more advanced technology than we do now.

  26. Dan8267


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    122   5:00pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    The Pope would disagree.

    Why should I care what the Pope, a former Hitler Youth and current and long time cover-upper of pedophiles, thinks?

  27. Dan8267


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    123   5:02pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    I will not be surprised if a civilization on earth 10000 years ago had more advanced technology than we do now.

    Whereas the entire educated world would be shocked. Any society with world-wide telecommunications, computers, and space travel that existed on Earth 10,000 years ago, would be a very, very big discovery.

  28. Peter P


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    124   5:10pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Dan8267 says

    Whereas the entire educated world would be shocked. Any society with world-wide telecommunications, computers, and space travel that existed on Earth 10,000 years ago, would be a very, very big discovery.

    I am not easily surprised nowadays. Unless it is good food in some unlikely places.

  29. Dan8267


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    125   5:11pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    Science has been wrong a billion times

    Science is a methodology. Individual scientists are wrong. Science is the methodology that filters out incorrect hypothesis and revises and improves correct ones.

    What exactly do you have against the scientific method and what superior alternative do you propose?

    Religious leaders are deliberately incorrect. They lie for the sake of gaining wealth and power. Science ensures that any deliberate fraud and any accidental mistake are caught and exposed. And science's track record has been phenomenal and exponentially improving. It is science that enable mankind to progress more in the 20th century than mankind progressed in all prior centuries put together. That alone proves the incredible value of science. Nothing in religion can compare.

    Bap33 says

    God is a clever operator.

    Even if there were a god and it were a clever operator, it would not be your god. It would not be Jesus and god the father. That's for sure.

    Bap33 says

    Lets not forget, the creation "myth" was deemed correct by science about 7,000 years after it was "wrote" down.

    Not even remotely true. Any pseudo-science caused by the religious perverting the scientific community by disregarding the scientific method is pure bullshit.

    Bap33 says

    Science (and all of the names it was called before 1600 A.D.) has been off the mark a few times.

    Although science does not have a precise beginning, the modern meaning of the word comes from the methodology began in the 1600s and published by Francis Bacon in Novum Organum in 1622, and by René Descartes in Discourse on Method in 1637. The scientific method was revised and improved so that by the late 19th century, it was a world-wide standard. It is during the late 19th century that we start seeing the exponentially increasing knowledge, understanding, and technology of mankind. The scientific revolution is what started this.

  30. Dan8267


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    126   5:12pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Bap33 says

    and the very very last thing -- man)

    There are countless species which have come into existence after man came about. HIV comes to mind.

  31. JodyChunder


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    127   5:14pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    There is no profit in going to the moon per se. It was an amazing feat, and it stroked a lot of ego, but so what?

    We've just got this thing for conquering frontiers and propagation. I don't get it either. We could've stopped after the bottle opener and the remote control, and I'd still be in awe of humankind.

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    128   5:15pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    JodyChunder says

    We've just got this thing for conquering frontiers and propagation. I don't get it either. We could've stopped after the bottle opener and the remote control, and I'd still be in awe.

    I think molecular gastronomy is more useful.

    Space exploration is not my thing. Can't pay me enough to go to space.

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    129   5:20pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    Can't pay me enough to go to space.

    I've got the Eureka Dunes near enough if I ever get the hankering.

  34. Bap33


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    130   5:25pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    Bap33 says



    and the very very last thing -- man)


    There are countless species which have come into existence after man came about. HIV comes to mind.

    nope. don't be silly.

  35. Bap33


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    131   5:30pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    What exactly do you have against the scientific method and what superior
    alternative do you propose?

    I really like science and support it. Sorry if it sounded different. I support an active pursuit of the unknown in all areas. Science is way bitchin if you ask me. Scientific discovery has done as much to solidify my understanding of God, man, and the universe, as anything else. Along with Plato, Sam Clemens and Ben Franklin.

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    132   5:33pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    I will not be surprised if a civilization on earth 10000 years ago had more advanced technology than we do now.

    The world's pyramids, the Nazca lines, and the degradation of modern man, seem to point at an ancient advanced society.

  37. Philistine


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    Bap33 says

    Along with Plato, Sam Clemens and Ben Franklin

    Is it acceptable writing style to refer to Mark Twain by his real name if you are referencing the ideas or writings published under the pseudonym? It's like referring to Leonardo DiCaprio as "Leo" or Nicholas Cage as "Nick" when you don't personally know them. . . .

  38. Peter P


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    134   5:43pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Bap33 says

    The world's pyramids, the Nazca lines, and the degradation of modern man, seem to point at an ancient advanced society.

    Yes, and they could be advanced in different ways.

  39. Greatest I am


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    135   7:35am Mon 7 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Peter P says

    Dan8267 says

    The bottom line is that science's track record has been stellar, whereas religion's track record has been abysmal.

    The Pope would disagree.

    Do you always trust known pedophile protectors?

    Regards
    DL

  40. Bap33


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    136   8:17am Mon 7 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Philistine says

    Bap33 says



    Along with Plato, Sam Clemens and Ben Franklin


    Is it acceptable writing style to refer to Mark Twain by his real name if you are referencing the ideas or writings published under the pseudonym? It's like referring to Leonardo DiCaprio as "Leo" or Nicholas Cage as "Nick" when you don't personally know them. . . .

    I was not refering to Sam Clemens in the familure, I was refering to the person who invented the thoughts, words, and personage of Mark Twain. Sorry if I came off as being disrespectful. I am a cad at times. If you don't mind, please tell me one thing, who is it that would be offended by my reference? Sam or Mark?

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