Society with no guns, and with big government.


By FortWayne   Follow   Fri, 4 Jan 2013, 1:51pm   2,331 views   60 comments
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  1. FortWayne


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    21   3:15pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    leo707 says

    FortWayne says

    Please don't lump all pro-gun individuals into a single minded group. Everyone does not think same, you know that.

    Deal, as long as you don't lump all "liberals" into a single minded group.

    You got yourself a deal.

  2. Dan8267


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    22   3:16pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    Call it Crazy says

    I think it was because most of that didn't directly apply to law abiding citizens who owned firearms... they were just policies that pertained to "others".

    Now, if the gov't. comes knocking on your door looking to take your firearms, that becomes a personal situation, and I believe you will see a different "response"....

    OK, then why didn't the pro-gun people hunt down these assholes? If an innocent man gets shot by the police for lawfully possessing a gun in his own home for home defense and the police are not even prosecuted and still the pro-gun crowd does nothing to bring the police to justice, then the argument that guns protect us from even local government gone bad is complete bullshit.

  3. Quigley


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    23   3:18pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    For once I agree with Dan. Our government was carefully constructed with many checks on raw democratic power to PREVENT a simple democracy. The founders didnt trust the people not to be swayed back and forth with the fickle whims of chance.

  4. Dan8267


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    24   3:19pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (4)   Dislike (1)  

    FortWayne says

    Government would have very difficult time committing purges and ethnic cleansing. It takes a lot more resources to arrest thousands of armed people compared to unarmed.

    Ethnic purges isn't what I'm concerned about. U.S. citizens disappearing in the middle of the night because some dumb ass clerk enters a typo in a terrorist database giving a wrong address or social security number is what I'm worried about.

  5. Call it Crazy


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    25   3:19pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    bob2356 says

    The peak US commitment was 45,000 troops. Am I missing something in the definition of "overwhelming" here?

    It was a reference back to Dan's post in #1 that he felt the general population couldn't stand up to the hardware the police and military has at it's disposal.

  6. Kevin


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    26   3:21pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Dan8267 says

    Kevin says

    No totalitarian regime has ever seized power without popular support. Ever.

    About 40-50% of Americans do support totalitarian government, torture, and the suspension of human and civil rights to get "the bad guy", and they are willing to allow our government agents, acting non-transparently and without accountability, to unilaterally determine who the bad guy is.

    That 40-50% believe that the ends justify the means. And that is what leads to totalitarian government.

    As long as it remains 40-50%, we're fine. It has been worse in the past.

  7. Dan8267


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    27   3:23pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    FortWayne says

    A great example of emotional shallowness of our time. We as a nation have supported worse kinds of offenses against humanity overseas, and I think that karma is biting us back now. Slowly creeping back into our nation against our own citizens.

    Agreed, except for the part about karma. Karma's just a myth, like heaven and hell, to allow people to delude themselves that no injustice goes uncorrected.

    FortWayne says

    Please don't lump all pro-gun individuals into a single minded group. Everyone does not think same, you know that.

    Good point. I don't think all pro-gun people are pro-gun for the same reasons. I like the pro-gun culture of Swiss, but that culture doesn't glorify gun violence or cheapen human life like American culture often does. The Swiss have a more dispassionate, rational, and mature attitude towards firearms. They treat them like tools rather than toys.

    Not that there is anything wrong with a good first person shooter game, but no one gets hurt in those.

  8. Call it Crazy


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    28   3:23pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (1)  

    Dan8267 says

    OK, then why didn't the pro-gun people hunt down these assholes? If an innocent man gets shot by the police for lawfully possessing a gun in his own home for home defense and the police are not even prosecuted and still the pro-gun crowd does nothing to bring the police to justice, then the argument that guns protect us from even local government gone bad is complete bullshit.

    Like I said above, most likely it's because it happened to someone else and not them. Once the gov't tries to make a large grab of firearms, then it becomes "personal" when they knock on your door.

  9. Dan8267


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    29   3:24pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Call it Crazy says

    I guess the question is, how many MORE freedoms do you want taken away before you draw the line in the sand?? Where's YOUR line?

    Pasted a long time ago. Where the hell is the revolution?

  10. Dan8267


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    30   3:24pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    leo707 says

    FortWayne says

    Please don't lump all pro-gun individuals into a single minded group. Everyone does not think same, you know that.

    Deal, as long as you don't lump all "liberals" into a single minded group.

    +1

  11. Call it Crazy


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    31   3:25pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    Dan8267 says

    Where the hell is the revolution?

    Are you signing up??

  12. Dan8267


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    32   3:28pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (1)  

    Quigley says

    For once I agree with Dan. Our government was carefully constructed with many checks on raw democratic power to PREVENT a simple democracy. The founders didnt trust the people not to be swayed back and forth with the fickle whims of chance.

    As Hermann Goering said,

    Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

    Haven't we've seen that during the entire past 12 years with the wars on Iraq/Afghanistan/Terror?

  13. Dan8267


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    33   3:33pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Call it Crazy says

    Dan8267 says

    Where the hell is the revolution?

    Are you signing up??

    If there was a snowball chance in hell of a revolution working, I would, but there isn't. And all I'd ask for from the revolution is getting the current politicians out of office, taking the power from the lobbyists, and rewriting the Constitution to protect rights better and provide better checks and balances in the 21st century -- basically shit that should be passed by Congress right now but won't because the assholes in power are holding the country hostage. I wouldn't even be interested in taking power for myself or others.

    But where's the outrage? America is a country of sheep. No matter how bad things get -- and I hope they don't get any worse -- the people aren't going to up-rise. America lost its rebel spirit in the 19th century.

    And no, I wouldn't be convinced to join these guys. I don't think they'll pull it off.

  14. Call it Crazy


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    34   5:10pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    Dan8267 says

    And all I'd ask for from the revolution is getting the current politicians out of office, taking the power from the lobbyists, and rewriting the Constitution to protect rights better and provide better checks and balances in the 21st century -- basically shit that should be passed by Congress right now but won't because the assholes in power are holding the country hostage.

    I agree...

    Dan8267 says

    But where's the outrage? America is a country of sheep. No matter how bad things get -- and I hope they don't get any worse -- the people aren't going to up-rise. America lost its rebel spirit in the 19th century.

    Unfortunately, until their smart phones are turned off, the sheep will just sit on their asses..

    Dan8267 says

    And no, I wouldn't be convinced to join these guys. I don't think they'll pull it off.

    If you don't stand up and try, you're just one of the "sheep"...

  15. David Losh


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    35   6:37pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    121212 says

    Thanks for your usual hate and obvious bigotry

    121212 says

    If Indians would have had guns then, they would not have a India today.

    They would have murdered each other just like IRAQ.

    I find this an odd combination of comments.

  16. zzyzzx


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    36   6:51pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike (3)  

  17. zzyzzx


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    37   6:53pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    bob2356 says

    Call it Crazy says

    Case in point, look at Afghanistan. Even with our overwhelming firepower, after 10 years, we still can't overpower the goat herders...

    Overwhelming firepower? Those 35 million goat herders, who were and still are equipped with a lot of very modern sophisticated military hardware managed to defeat 400,000 soviet troops, including several tank divisions.

    The peak US commitment was 45,000 troops. Am I missing something in the definition of "overwhelming" here?

    I think you need to study Russian history and look at how craptacular their military has been historically. WW2 was an exception because they had a ruthless dictator and huge amount of weapons and supplies from the US.

  18. Dan8267


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    38   7:05pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    zzyzzx says

    WW2 was an exception because they had a ruthless dictator and huge amount of weapons and supplies from the US.

    Russia produced 56,000 T-34 tanks during WWII in their own factories. That might have had something to do with their combat readiness. Although not the best tank on the field, they had a hell of a lot of them.

    Not everything on the History Channel is crap, only about 50%.

  19. New Renter


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    39   7:52pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Dan8267 says

    Russia produced 56,000 T-34 tanks during WWII in their own factories. That might have had something to do with their combat readiness. Although not the best tank on the field, they had a hell of a lot of them.

    Factories they MOVED thousands of miles away from the advancing Germans I might add.

    BTW you ever seen one of these up close? I have. The guide on the tour I was on told me on average the engines in these things would shed a kilo of metal shavings during break in.

    These things were not built with love, just to dish it out.

  20. New Renter


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    40   7:53pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Dan8267 says

    Pasted a long time ago. Where the hell is the revolution?

    OWS?

  21. Dan8267


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    41   9:47pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    New Renter says

    Dan8267 says

    Pasted a long time ago. Where the hell is the revolution?

    OWS?

    OWS was no revolution. Their strategy was to get beaten up by cops as they played drums. Hardly rebels.

  22. thomaswong.1986


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    42   10:45pm Fri 4 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (2)  

    Dan8267 says

    About 40-50% of Americans do support totalitarian government, torture, and the suspension of human and civil rights to get "the bad guy",

    Terrorist have no human and civil rights.. you can check with the British, Israeli, Japanese, Germans and Italian Govt as they dealt with their own terrorists.

  23. Kevin


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    43   12:06am Sat 5 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    New Renter says

    Dan8267 says

    Pasted a long time ago. Where the hell is the revolution?

    OWS?

    OWS was a bunch of angry liberals who didn't really have any idea what they wanted to fix. That's why they failed. They were Howard Beale.

    At least the teaparty, as dumb as they are, have something coherent to agree on.

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Terrorist have no human and civil rights.. you can check with the British, Israeli, Japanese, Germans and Italian Govt as they dealt with their own terrorists.

    It's a good thing the United States isn't any of those countries and we're supposed to treat all people as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

    If someone is convicted of terrorism, sure, by all means, do whatever you want to them. I don't care. What we're doing right now is saying that anybody that the government wants to label a terrorist is automatically guilty. That's some serious shit.

  24. bob2356


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    44   7:18am Sat 5 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Terrorist have no human and civil rights.. you can check with the British, Israeli, Japanese, Germans and Italian Govt as they dealt with their own terrorists.

    What they do is abide by UN Counter-Terrorism Implementation Task Force (CTITF) guidelines for “Protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms while countering terrorism”. Read about it some time.

  25. thomaswong.1986


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    45   7:29pm Sat 5 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (3)  

    bob2356 says

    What they do is abide by UN Counter-Terrorism Implementation Task Force (CTITF) guidelines for “Protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms while countering terrorism”. Read about it some time.

    and the nations who are victims of terrorism ignore it as they should...
    ask the Brits about the Irish terrorists some time.

  26. Kevin


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    46   10:33pm Sat 5 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    John Bailo says

    Kevin says

    No totalitarian regime has ever seized power without popular support. Ever.

    Colonialism?

    Vichy France?

    These are occupations, not "governments" in the sense that we're talking about here.

    Pinochet?

    You'd be surprised to learn just how widespread support for Pinochet was. It's hard to pull off a coup without one. Like many (most?) such coups, though, the people that seized power immediately discarded the promises that they made to get there.

  27. Kevin


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    47   7:46pm Mon 7 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Germany had essentially a total ban on guns in the 20s you moron. The permitying process was what I was referring to by "relaxed"standards.

  28. Dan8267


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    48   8:32pm Mon 7 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Terrorist have no human and civil rights.. you can check with the British, Israeli, Japanese, Germans and Italian Govt as they dealt with their own terrorists.

    One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. George Washington and all the founding fathers were terrorists according to Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act. Are you saying that our founding fathers have no human and civil rights?

    The problem is who gets to decide who is the terrorist. Our military is the largest terrorist organization, including by the definition in the USA PATRIOT ACT as well as by the conventional definition. Our military deliberately tries to inflict terror into the enemy, no different from Al Qaeda. Are you saying that our soldiers have no human and civil rights?

    Let's look at Section 802 of the Patriot Act. Terrorism is any act or acts that

    appear to be intended--

    `(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

    `(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

    `(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

    Gee, that describes Seal Team 6 taking out Bid Laden as well as the military taking out Saddam and a hell of a lot of U.S. military actions over the past 100 years.

    Not only is the label terrorist arbitrary, but there have been plenty of completely innocent people tortured and murdered by the U.S. under the pretense of combating terrorism. Anyone who believes that those innocent people are acceptable collateral damage is as bad as any terrorist.

  29. Dan8267


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    49   8:33pm Mon 7 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    John Bailo says

    Kevin says

    No totalitarian regime has ever seized power without popular support. Ever.

    Colonialism?

    Vichy France?

    Pinochet?

    Hell, you could add Sparta and Rome to that list. That's how far back it goes.

  30. Dan8267


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    50   8:36pm Mon 7 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    and the nations who are victims of terrorism ignore it as they should...

    ask the Brits about the Irish terrorists some time.

    Or ask the Irish about hundreds of years of British terrorism and atrocities. I'm descendent from both so I can objectively say that the British were vile scum when they stole from and butchered the Irish.

    Of course, even to the Brits, the Irish rebels were nothing compared to those damn American terrorists in the late 1700s.

  31. Dan8267


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    51   8:36pm Mon 7 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    IDDQD says

    Taliban seems pretty successful at denying our government a desired outcome in Afghanistan, even though their rusty AK-47s and crude IEDs are no match for the sophisticated weaponry US military has deployed there.

    Our government has a desired outcome in Afghanistan? Why is it keeping it a secret?

  32. Dan8267


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    52   8:41pm Mon 7 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    IDDQD says

    Taliban seems pretty successful at denying our government a desired outcome in Afghanistan, even though their rusty AK-47s and crude IEDs are no match for the sophisticated weaponry US military has deployed there.

    Actually, this suggests that guns can only cause chaos in such a situation. If guns were effective in stopping an occupation by a malevolent force -- and our military certainly is malevolent towards the Afghans -- then the Afghan resistance should have ended our occupation by now.

    I don't find the argument that no restrictions on guns will turn America into Afghanistan to be a convincing argument against gun control.

  33. bob2356


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    53   8:44pm Mon 7 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    IDDQD says

    Taliban seems pretty successful at denying our government a desired outcome in Afghanistan,

    That's really easy to do when the US government has no clue whatsoever what the desired income they are trying to achieve is.

  34. thomaswong.1986


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    54   12:20am Tue 8 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (5)  

    Dan8267 says

    One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    Oh Dan.. I have no doubt you would lick the Cream off Osama' or any Islamic terrorists
    ass any place any time.. and ask for more.

    In many of our posts over the past year.. all you spout is anti-US, anti-white and anti-religion.

    You might as well be some prick in North Korea...

  35. thomaswong.1986


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    55   12:24am Tue 8 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (5)  

    Dan8267 says

    Not only is the label terrorist arbitrary, but there have been plenty of completely innocent people tortured and murdered by the U.S. under the pretense of combating terrorism. Anyone who believes that those innocent people are acceptable collateral damage is as bad as any terrorist.

    What you call innocent is typically some already professed terrorist anyway.

  36. Dan8267


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    56   8:06am Tue 8 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (2)  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Oh Dan.. I have no doubt you would lick the Cream off Osama' or any Islamic terrorists

    ass any place any time.. and ask for more.

    In many of our posts over the past year.. all you spout is anti-US, anti-white and anti-religion.

    You might as well be some prick in North Korea...

    And comments like this is why everyone thinks you're an ass.

    When you grow up and want to discuss grown up issues like an adult call me. Till then, sink back to whatever pubescent wacking hole you crawled out of.

    I can't imagine how racist you must be to think that anything I've ever said was anti-white. I can't image how much of a pseudo-patriotic nationalist slim you must be to think that anything I've ever said was anti-US (a real patriot criticizes his government and seeks to change it).

    As for anti-religion, well, yes, I'm anti-religion for the exact same reason I'm anti-murder. It's fucking evil. Of course, you're every bit as anti-religion as I am when it comes to anyone else's religion.

  37. thunderlips11


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    57   8:16am Tue 8 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (3)   Protected  

    Dan8267 says

    Agreed, except for the part about karma. Karma's just a myth, like heaven and hell, to allow people to delude themselves that no injustice goes uncorrected.

    Joseph Stalin died fat and happy on the couch of natural causes at the age of 74, I believe. For somebody born in the late 19th Century, 74 was a very long life.

  38. FortWayne


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    58   8:42am Tue 8 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (4)  
  39. Thedaytoday


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    59   10:34am Wed 9 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Dan8267 says

    One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    For example:
    Nelson Mandela
    Gerry Adams

  40. leo707


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    60   11:19am Wed 9 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Thedaytoday says

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Dan8267 says

    One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    For example:

    Nelson Mandela

    Gerry Adams

    George Washington
    Sam Adams
    John Hancock

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