Progress is being made toward gun control


By tovarichpeter   Follow   Sat, 5 Jan 2013, 5:29pm   1,045 views   33 comments
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-weighs-broad-gun-control-agenda-in-wake-of-newtown-shootings/2013/01/05/d281efe0-5682-11e2-bf3e-76c0a789346f_story.html

Vice President Biden, center, leads the first meeting of the working group on gun violence on Dec. 20. From left, hes joined by Attorney General Eric Holder, National Association of Police Organizations President Thomas Nee, Philadelphia Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, Vice President Chief of Staff Bruce Reed and other officials.

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  1. Raw


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    1   5:43pm Sat 5 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Best news I have heard all week.
    Ban all guns except one for the NRA. With luck they will shoot themselves with it.

  2. Call it Crazy


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    2   6:31pm Sat 5 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Raw says

    Best news I have heard all week.

    Be careful what you wish for....

    From the article:

    ...."In addition to potential legislative proposals, Biden’s group has expanded its focus to include measures that would not need congressional approval and could be quickly implemented by executive action,"

    First they circumvent the 2A by "executive action", then they come after some of your other "freedoms" the same way!! I don't think you want to open that can of worms...

  3. Call it Crazy


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    3   9:00pm Sat 5 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    http://cnsnews.com/blog/gregory-gwyn-williams-jr/flashback-obama-i-will-not-take-your-guns-away

    From Obama's mouth (Sept. 9, 2008) - video at link:

    ...."When you all go home and you're talking to your buddies and you say, ah 'He wants to take my gun away.' You've heard it here, I'm on television so everybody knows it. I believe in the Second Amendment. I believe in people's lawful right to bear arms. I will not take your shotgun away. I will not take your rifle away. I won't take your handgun away."

  4. Robert Sproul


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    4   9:41am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Many more people were killed last year with hammers and clubs than with all types of rifle, of which "assault" rifles are a subset.
    The last ban had zero effect on any crime statistic.
    You are being propagandized.

    Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.Gandhi

  5. Raw


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    5   10:23am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Nuclear bombs have killed less people than hammers and clubs, so lets give access to anyone who wants one
    When are we gonna grow up?

  6. Robert Sproul


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    6   10:42am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Raw-
    I am all grown up, and I would rather be responsible for my own defense, against any type of aggression, than rely on a civil service employee. Per the Supreme Court, the police are under no legal obligation to physically intercede to defend me from any assault. They don't protect, they investigate crime after the fact. And they aren't all that good at that job.
    You obviously trust your government more than i do. I fear the metastasising security state, militarized civilian police, and loss of posse comitatus in an environment of perpetual warfare. Not to mention the 30,000 drones approved by the FAA for deployment in America. In order to increase domestic authority the civilian population must be disarmed, it has happened repeatedly through out history.

  7. Call it Crazy


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    7   10:44am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    Raw says

    When are we gonna grow up?

    Why don't you spend 6 minutes and watch the video in #4...

  8. Raw


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    8   11:04am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Call it Crazy says

    Raw says

    When are we gonna grow up?

    Why don't you spend 6 minutes and watch the video in #4...

    Robert Sproul says

    Raw-

    I am all grown up, and I would rather be responsible for my own defense, against any type of aggression, than rely on a civil service employee. Per the Supreme Court, the police are under no legal obligation to physically intercede to defend me from any assault. They don't protect, they investigate crime after the fact. And they aren't all that good at that job.

    You obviously trust your government more than i do. I fear the metastasising security state, militarized civilian police, and loss of posse comitatus in an environment of perpetual warfare. Not to mention the 30,000 drones approved by the FAA for deployment in America. In order to increase domestic authority the civilian population must be disarmed, it has happened repeatedly through out history.

    That is how the Wild Wild West was 300 years ago. Today, we have a police force that does do everything to protect the citizen.
    If you see someone lurking in the neighborhood and call 911, a patrol car will come right over to prevent a crime.
    You do not need to fear the government...they are there for us.
    "A government of the people, for the people, by the people."
    Every citizen arming themselves with assault weapons to protect themselves is impractical and much too dangerous in this day and age.

  9. The Professor


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    9   11:28am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Raw says

    That is how the Wild Wild West was 300 years ago. Today, we have a police force
    that does do everything to protect the citizen.
    If you see someone lurking in
    the neighborhood and call 911, a patrol car will come right over to prevent a
    crime.

    Where do you live?

    So you call 911 and say there is a home invasion and some armed intruders are at the door trying to steal your coin collection. The 911 operator says to stay on the line until the police arrive.

    25 minutes later (20 minutes at Sandy Hook, 2 hours in Oakland CA) the police arrive to find you pistol whipped and robbed. They then take a report so that you can collect from the insurance company.

    I imagine the possibility of armed occupants stops a lot of home burglarys and robberies.

  10. Robert Sproul


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    10   11:35am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The Pre-columbian Wild Wild West?
    "a patrol car will come right over to prevent a crime."
    "A government of the people, for the people, by the people."
    You don't know anything about the world you live in.

    Learning is not compulsory, neither is survival. W. Edwards Demming

  11. The Professor


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    11   11:36am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Raw says

    That is how the Wild Wild West was 300 years ago.

    You do know that the "wild west" was 130 years ago don't you? The bill of rights, including the second amendment which confirmed our right to protect ourselves, was ratified 220 years ago.

    "Those that forget their history are condemned to repeat it"

  12. Peter P


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    12   11:38am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    A great quote from Fire Fly:

    A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned.

  13. Raw


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    13   11:40am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The Professor says

    I imagine the possibility of armed occupants stops a lot of home burglarys and robberies.

    Other countries do not have this problem, why should we? Lets mimick the successful countries.
    Besides, a dog is a better deterrent to a burglar than a gun.

  14. The Professor


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    14   11:45am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Raw says

    Lets mimick the successful countries.

    What countries are "successful"?

    We do have home invasions. The police does not arrive on time to protect us. A dog is easily dispatched.

    Cliche but true, "If you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns".

  15. Raw


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    15   11:47am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The Professor says

    Raw says

    That is how the Wild Wild West was 300 years ago.

    You do know that the "wild west" was 130 years ago don't you? The bill of rights, including the second amendment which confirmed our right to protect ourselves, was ratified 220 years ago.

    "Those that forget their history are condemned to repeat it"

    So lets learn from history and prevent another massacre. Assault weapons aka "weapons of mass slaughter" did not exist when the 2nd amendment was written. Lets amend the constitution to reflect fast changing technology and lifestyles.

  16. Raw


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    16   11:51am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The Professor says

    Raw says

    Lets mimick the successful countries.

    What countries are "successful"?

    We do have home invasions. The police does not arrive on time to protect us. A dog is easily dispatched.

    Cliche but true, "If you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns".

    How many outlaws and gun murders does UK, Japan, Australia, France, Germany etc etc etc have?
    Lets outlaw guns and start bringing down gun deaths. Right now we are the laughing stock of the world.

  17. The Professor


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    17   11:56am Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Raw says

    Lets amend the constitution to reflect fast changing technology and lifestyles.

    Would you still allow single shot muzzle loading muskets?

  18. Robert Sproul


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    18   12:00pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The murder rate in this country is plummeting, it is 1/2 of what it was 20 years ago. Black on black crime in urban settings account for 1/2 of the gun murders in America. Removing that from the data set results in a gun crime rate equivalent to gun controlled Europe or Canada.
    Per 100,000:
    • Idaho (2.3, was 1.4 in 2010)
    • Finland (2.2)
    • Oregon (2.1)
    • Maine (2.0)
    • Utah (1.9)
    • Belgium (1.7)
    • Canada (1.6)
    • Iowa (1.5)
    • Greece (1.5)
    • Minnesota (1.4)
    • New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island (1.3)
    • UK and Portugal (1.2)
    • Hawaii (1.2)
    • France (1.1)
    • New Hampshire (1.0 in 2010)
    The idea that infringing on the civil liberties of most Americans is the best solution to the social ills of urban, inner cities is absurd. Maybe another agenda is being served.

  19. Raw


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    19   12:09pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The Professor says

    Raw says

    Lets amend the constitution to reflect fast changing technology and lifestyles.

    Would you still allow single shot muzzle loading muskets?

    Yes, with a background chek....training...heavy fees....and full liability for their owners.

  20. The Professor


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    20   12:17pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    I was raised a hunter. I took my hunter safety class and got my first shotgun when I was 11 years old. I have not killed anything for decades but I know how to handle a firearm and could hunt, kill, butcher and cook if need be.

    A gun is a tool for killing.

    I know criminals have guns. I know criminals (by definition) break laws. I don't think we should take away one of our fundamental rights just to make some people feel better but most people less safe.

    Which other of our bill of rights are expendable?
    1 Freedom of Speech, Religion & Press
    2 Right to bear arms
    3 Prohibits the forced quartering of soldiers out of war time
    4 Prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures and sets out requirements for search warrants
    5 Sets out rules for indictment by grand jury and eminent domain, protects the right to due process,...
    6 Protects the right to a fair and speedy public trial by jury, including the rights to be notified ...
    7 Provides for the right to trial by jury in certain civil cases, according to common law
    8 Prohibits excessive fines and excessive bail, as well as cruel and unusual punishment
    9 Protects rights not enumerated in the constitution.
    10 Limits the powers of the federal government to those delegated to it by the Constitution

    Eliminate one and the others are not far behind.

  21. Raw


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    21   12:25pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Robert Sproul says

    The murder rate in this country is plummeting, it is 1/2 of what it was 20 years ago. Black on black crime in urban settings account for 1/2 of the gun murders in America. Removing that from the data set results in a gun crime rate equivalent to gun controlled Europe or Canada.

    Per 100,000:

    • Idaho (2.3, was 1.4 in 2010)

    • Finland (2.2)

    • Oregon (2.1)

    • Maine (2.0)

    • Utah (1.9)

    • Belgium (1.7)

    • Canada (1.6)

    • Iowa (1.5)

    • Greece (1.5)

    • Minnesota (1.4)

    • New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island (1.3)

    • UK and Portugal (1.2)

    • Hawaii (1.2)

    • France (1.1)

    • New Hampshire (1.0 in 2010)

    The idea that infringing on the civil liberties of most Americans is the best solution to the social ills of urban, inner cities is absurd. Maybe another agenda is being served.

    This is nothing but cherry picking statistics to prove a point.

  22. Raw


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    22   12:30pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The Professor says

    Eliminate one and the others are not far behind.

    Professor, there is a reason why the constitution allows for amendments. So that we can keep pace with changing times.
    If we do not amend the consttution when needed, it will become a dinosaur.

  23. The Professor


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    23   12:59pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Raw says

    The Professor says



    Eliminate one and the others are not far behind.


    Professor, there is a reason why the constitution allows for amendments. So that we can keep pace with changing times.
    If we do not amend the consttution when needed, it will become a dinosaur.

    Agreed. Amendments allowed blacks and women to vote, started and stopped prohibition and took some rights away from the states.

    But the 1st ten amendments were special. That's why we call them the bill of rights.

    There is a reason the 2nd amendment immediately follows the 1st.

    What other rights do you consider archaic?

  24. The Professor


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    24   1:02pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Raw says

    Nuclear bombs have killed less people than hammers and clubs, so lets give access to anyone who wants one
    When are we gonna grow up?

    And send Patrick some money! He deserves it for giving us a forum to express our first amendment rights!

  25. Robert Sproul


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    25   1:08pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Raw says

    This is nothing but cherry picking statistics to prove a point.

    Cherry picked how? They are just the numbers.
    As I have noticed in many other threads Raw's typical rebuttals consist of "nuh uh"

  26. Raw


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    26   1:09pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The Professor says

    Raw says

    The Professor says

    Eliminate one and the others are not far behind.

    Professor, there is a reason why the constitution allows for amendments. So that we can keep pace with changing times.

    If we do not amend the consttution when needed, it will become a dinosaur.

    Agreed. Amendments allowed blacks and women to vote, started and stopped prohibition and took some rights away from the states.

    But the 1st ten amendments were special. That's why we call them the bill of rights.

    There is a reason the 2nd amendment immediately follows the 1st.

    What other rights do you consider archaic?

    Right to hunt.
    Allowing tax right offs for religious donations.
    Allowing creation to be taught even in Church.
    Rights of States (we live in one country, not one state)

  27. Raw


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    27   1:19pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Robert Sproul says

    Raw says

    This is nothing but cherry picking statistics to prove a point.

    Cherry picked how? They are just the numbers.

    As I have noticed in many other threads Raw's typical rebuttals consist of "nuh uh"

    You can't compare certain states in USA with certain countries in Europe. That is deception which the NRA does. I bet the NRA could even prove there are ZERO gun deaths in America.
    This is more accurate:
    http://www.tampabay.com/news/politifact-us-has-more-gun-deaths-than-other-large-countries/1145669

  28. The Professor


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    28   6:16pm Sun 6 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    The Professor says

    What other rights do you consider archaic?


    Raw says

    Right to hunt.
    Allowing tax right offs for religious
    donations.
    Allowing creation to be taught even in Church.
    Rights of States
    (we live in one country, not one state)

    So you find amendments 2, 9, and 10 from the bill of rights archaic?

    What about 1, 4 and 5 which would probably have to be suppressed in order to elimnate the three you are against?

    The 3rd Amendment may be archaic but lets keep it in order not to set a precedent of eliminating our constitutional rights one by one.

  29. The Professor


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    29   9:39am Sun 13 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Raw says

    Allowing tax right offs for religious donations.

    Allowing creation to be taught even in Church.

    So you are against the first amendment as well?

    Not all churches are evil (not all) but if you allow the government to tax churches, violating the 1st amendment freedom of religion, only the evil churches will survive.

  30. Raw


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    30   9:49am Sun 13 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The Professor says

    Raw says

    Allowing tax right offs for religious donations.

    Allowing creation to be taught even in Church.

    So you are against the first amendment as well?

    Not all churches are evil (not all) but if you allow the government to tax churches, violating the 1st amendment freedom of religion, only the evil churches will survive.

    Professor, we know the government as per the constitution cannot favor religion. When they allow a tax write off for donations to a church, it indirectly comes from taxpayers like me and you.
    Why am I being forced to pay for a religion I do not believe in?

  31. The Professor


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    31   9:57am Sun 13 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike   Protected  

    Raw says

    Why am I being forced to pay for a religion I do not believe in?

    You are not.

    You too have the right to donate to a church you do believe in.

    You implied that you would like to eliminate Bill of Rights numbers 2, 9, and 10, and at least parts of 1. Can you see how this would be the beginning of eliminating Rights 1,4, and 5?

    Do you believe in any natural rights? Or is the government the ultimate controller of human actions?

  32. Raw


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    32   10:06am Sun 13 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    The Professor says

    Raw says

    Why am I being forced to pay for a religion I do not believe in?

    You are not.

    You too have the right to donate to a church you do believe in.

    Here is what I am trying to say....
    When donors to any religion get a tax write off, the treasury ends up taking in less. They make up for this by charging a higher tax rate to the rest of us. The taxpayer like me pays more in tax. I am essentially, being made to pay so that someone can build something where people can gather around and talk to invisible friends.
    Please do it with your own money, not mine.
    I do not want to eliminate rights. I would like to refine some of them to keep up with changing times.

  33. The Professor


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    33   12:33pm Sun 13 Jan 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike   Protected  

    Raw says

    I am essentially, being made to pay so that someone can build something where people can gather around and talk to invisible friends.

    You mean like the Internet?

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