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Progress is being made toward gun control


By tovarichpeter   Follow   Sat, 5 Jan 2013, 9:29am PST   1,225 views   33 comments
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-weighs-broad-gun-control-agenda-in-wake-of-newtown-shootings/2013/01/05/d281efe0-5682-11e2-bf3e-76c0a789346f_story.html

Vice President Biden, center, leads the first meeting of the working group on gun violence on Dec. 20. From left, hes joined by Attorney General Eric Holder, National Association of Police Organizations President Thomas Nee, Philadelphia Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, Vice President Chief of Staff Bruce Reed and other officials.

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Raw   Sat, 5 Jan 2013, 9:43am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 1

Best news I have heard all week.
Ban all guns except one for the NRA. With luck they will shoot themselves with it.

Call it Crazy   Sat, 5 Jan 2013, 10:31am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 2

Raw says

Best news I have heard all week.

Be careful what you wish for....

From the article:

...."In addition to potential legislative proposals, Biden’s group has expanded its focus to include measures that would not need congressional approval and could be quickly implemented by executive action,"

First they circumvent the 2A by "executive action", then they come after some of your other "freedoms" the same way!! I don't think you want to open that can of worms...

Call it Crazy   Sat, 5 Jan 2013, 1:00pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 3

http://cnsnews.com/blog/gregory-gwyn-williams-jr/flashback-obama-i-will-not-take-your-guns-away

From Obama's mouth (Sept. 9, 2008) - video at link:

...."When you all go home and you're talking to your buddies and you say, ah 'He wants to take my gun away.' You've heard it here, I'm on television so everybody knows it. I believe in the Second Amendment. I believe in people's lawful right to bear arms. I will not take your shotgun away. I will not take your rifle away. I won't take your handgun away."

Robert Sproul   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 1:41am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 4

Many more people were killed last year with hammers and clubs than with all types of rifle, of which "assault" rifles are a subset.
The last ban had zero effect on any crime statistic.
You are being propagandized.

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.Gandhi

Raw   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 2:23am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 5

Nuclear bombs have killed less people than hammers and clubs, so lets give access to anyone who wants one
When are we gonna grow up?

Robert Sproul   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 2:42am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 6

Raw-
I am all grown up, and I would rather be responsible for my own defense, against any type of aggression, than rely on a civil service employee. Per the Supreme Court, the police are under no legal obligation to physically intercede to defend me from any assault. They don't protect, they investigate crime after the fact. And they aren't all that good at that job.
You obviously trust your government more than i do. I fear the metastasising security state, militarized civilian police, and loss of posse comitatus in an environment of perpetual warfare. Not to mention the 30,000 drones approved by the FAA for deployment in America. In order to increase domestic authority the civilian population must be disarmed, it has happened repeatedly through out history.

Call it Crazy   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 2:44am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 7

Raw says

When are we gonna grow up?

Why don't you spend 6 minutes and watch the video in #4...

Raw   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 3:04am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 8

Call it Crazy says

Raw says

When are we gonna grow up?

Why don't you spend 6 minutes and watch the video in #4...

Robert Sproul says

Raw-

I am all grown up, and I would rather be responsible for my own defense, against any type of aggression, than rely on a civil service employee. Per the Supreme Court, the police are under no legal obligation to physically intercede to defend me from any assault. They don't protect, they investigate crime after the fact. And they aren't all that good at that job.

You obviously trust your government more than i do. I fear the metastasising security state, militarized civilian police, and loss of posse comitatus in an environment of perpetual warfare. Not to mention the 30,000 drones approved by the FAA for deployment in America. In order to increase domestic authority the civilian population must be disarmed, it has happened repeatedly through out history.

That is how the Wild Wild West was 300 years ago. Today, we have a police force that does do everything to protect the citizen.
If you see someone lurking in the neighborhood and call 911, a patrol car will come right over to prevent a crime.
You do not need to fear the government...they are there for us.
"A government of the people, for the people, by the people."
Every citizen arming themselves with assault weapons to protect themselves is impractical and much too dangerous in this day and age.

The Professor   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 3:28am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 9

Raw says

That is how the Wild Wild West was 300 years ago. Today, we have a police force
that does do everything to protect the citizen.
If you see someone lurking in
the neighborhood and call 911, a patrol car will come right over to prevent a
crime.

Where do you live?

So you call 911 and say there is a home invasion and some armed intruders are at the door trying to steal your coin collection. The 911 operator says to stay on the line until the police arrive.

25 minutes later (20 minutes at Sandy Hook, 2 hours in Oakland CA) the police arrive to find you pistol whipped and robbed. They then take a report so that you can collect from the insurance company.

I imagine the possibility of armed occupants stops a lot of home burglarys and robberies.

Robert Sproul   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 3:35am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 10

The Pre-columbian Wild Wild West?
"a patrol car will come right over to prevent a crime."
"A government of the people, for the people, by the people."
You don't know anything about the world you live in.

Learning is not compulsory, neither is survival. W. Edwards Demming

The Professor   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 3:36am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 11

Raw says

That is how the Wild Wild West was 300 years ago.

You do know that the "wild west" was 130 years ago don't you? The bill of rights, including the second amendment which confirmed our right to protect ourselves, was ratified 220 years ago.

"Those that forget their history are condemned to repeat it"

Peter P   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 3:38am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 12

A great quote from Fire Fly:

A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned.

Raw   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 3:40am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 13

The Professor says

I imagine the possibility of armed occupants stops a lot of home burglarys and robberies.

Other countries do not have this problem, why should we? Lets mimick the successful countries.
Besides, a dog is a better deterrent to a burglar than a gun.

The Professor   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 3:45am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 14

Raw says

Lets mimick the successful countries.

What countries are "successful"?

We do have home invasions. The police does not arrive on time to protect us. A dog is easily dispatched.

Cliche but true, "If you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns".

Raw   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 3:47am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 15

The Professor says

Raw says

That is how the Wild Wild West was 300 years ago.

You do know that the "wild west" was 130 years ago don't you? The bill of rights, including the second amendment which confirmed our right to protect ourselves, was ratified 220 years ago.

"Those that forget their history are condemned to repeat it"

So lets learn from history and prevent another massacre. Assault weapons aka "weapons of mass slaughter" did not exist when the 2nd amendment was written. Lets amend the constitution to reflect fast changing technology and lifestyles.

Raw   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 3:51am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 16

The Professor says

Raw says

Lets mimick the successful countries.

What countries are "successful"?

We do have home invasions. The police does not arrive on time to protect us. A dog is easily dispatched.

Cliche but true, "If you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns".

How many outlaws and gun murders does UK, Japan, Australia, France, Germany etc etc etc have?
Lets outlaw guns and start bringing down gun deaths. Right now we are the laughing stock of the world.

The Professor   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 3:56am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 17

Raw says

Lets amend the constitution to reflect fast changing technology and lifestyles.

Would you still allow single shot muzzle loading muskets?

Robert Sproul   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 4:00am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 18

The murder rate in this country is plummeting, it is 1/2 of what it was 20 years ago. Black on black crime in urban settings account for 1/2 of the gun murders in America. Removing that from the data set results in a gun crime rate equivalent to gun controlled Europe or Canada.
Per 100,000:
• Idaho (2.3, was 1.4 in 2010)
• Finland (2.2)
• Oregon (2.1)
• Maine (2.0)
• Utah (1.9)
• Belgium (1.7)
• Canada (1.6)
• Iowa (1.5)
• Greece (1.5)
• Minnesota (1.4)
• New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island (1.3)
• UK and Portugal (1.2)
• Hawaii (1.2)
• France (1.1)
• New Hampshire (1.0 in 2010)
The idea that infringing on the civil liberties of most Americans is the best solution to the social ills of urban, inner cities is absurd. Maybe another agenda is being served.

Raw   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 4:09am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 19

The Professor says

Raw says

Lets amend the constitution to reflect fast changing technology and lifestyles.

Would you still allow single shot muzzle loading muskets?

Yes, with a background chek....training...heavy fees....and full liability for their owners.

The Professor   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 4:17am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 20

I was raised a hunter. I took my hunter safety class and got my first shotgun when I was 11 years old. I have not killed anything for decades but I know how to handle a firearm and could hunt, kill, butcher and cook if need be.

A gun is a tool for killing.

I know criminals have guns. I know criminals (by definition) break laws. I don't think we should take away one of our fundamental rights just to make some people feel better but most people less safe.

Which other of our bill of rights are expendable?
1 Freedom of Speech, Religion & Press
2 Right to bear arms
3 Prohibits the forced quartering of soldiers out of war time
4 Prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures and sets out requirements for search warrants
5 Sets out rules for indictment by grand jury and eminent domain, protects the right to due process,...
6 Protects the right to a fair and speedy public trial by jury, including the rights to be notified ...
7 Provides for the right to trial by jury in certain civil cases, according to common law
8 Prohibits excessive fines and excessive bail, as well as cruel and unusual punishment
9 Protects rights not enumerated in the constitution.
10 Limits the powers of the federal government to those delegated to it by the Constitution

Eliminate one and the others are not far behind.

Raw   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 4:25am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 21

Robert Sproul says

The murder rate in this country is plummeting, it is 1/2 of what it was 20 years ago. Black on black crime in urban settings account for 1/2 of the gun murders in America. Removing that from the data set results in a gun crime rate equivalent to gun controlled Europe or Canada.

Per 100,000:

• Idaho (2.3, was 1.4 in 2010)

• Finland (2.2)

• Oregon (2.1)

• Maine (2.0)

• Utah (1.9)

• Belgium (1.7)

• Canada (1.6)

• Iowa (1.5)

• Greece (1.5)

• Minnesota (1.4)

• New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island (1.3)

• UK and Portugal (1.2)

• Hawaii (1.2)

• France (1.1)

• New Hampshire (1.0 in 2010)

The idea that infringing on the civil liberties of most Americans is the best solution to the social ills of urban, inner cities is absurd. Maybe another agenda is being served.

This is nothing but cherry picking statistics to prove a point.

Raw   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 4:30am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 22

The Professor says

Eliminate one and the others are not far behind.

Professor, there is a reason why the constitution allows for amendments. So that we can keep pace with changing times.
If we do not amend the consttution when needed, it will become a dinosaur.

The Professor   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 4:59am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 23

Raw says

The Professor says



Eliminate one and the others are not far behind.


Professor, there is a reason why the constitution allows for amendments. So that we can keep pace with changing times.
If we do not amend the consttution when needed, it will become a dinosaur.

Agreed. Amendments allowed blacks and women to vote, started and stopped prohibition and took some rights away from the states.

But the 1st ten amendments were special. That's why we call them the bill of rights.

There is a reason the 2nd amendment immediately follows the 1st.

What other rights do you consider archaic?

The Professor   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 5:02am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 24

Raw says

Nuclear bombs have killed less people than hammers and clubs, so lets give access to anyone who wants one
When are we gonna grow up?

And send Patrick some money! He deserves it for giving us a forum to express our first amendment rights!

Robert Sproul   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 5:08am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 25

Raw says

This is nothing but cherry picking statistics to prove a point.

Cherry picked how? They are just the numbers.
As I have noticed in many other threads Raw's typical rebuttals consist of "nuh uh"

Raw   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 5:09am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 26

The Professor says

Raw says

The Professor says

Eliminate one and the others are not far behind.

Professor, there is a reason why the constitution allows for amendments. So that we can keep pace with changing times.

If we do not amend the consttution when needed, it will become a dinosaur.

Agreed. Amendments allowed blacks and women to vote, started and stopped prohibition and took some rights away from the states.

But the 1st ten amendments were special. That's why we call them the bill of rights.

There is a reason the 2nd amendment immediately follows the 1st.

What other rights do you consider archaic?

Right to hunt.
Allowing tax right offs for religious donations.
Allowing creation to be taught even in Church.
Rights of States (we live in one country, not one state)

Raw   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 5:19am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 27

Robert Sproul says

Raw says

This is nothing but cherry picking statistics to prove a point.

Cherry picked how? They are just the numbers.

As I have noticed in many other threads Raw's typical rebuttals consist of "nuh uh"

You can't compare certain states in USA with certain countries in Europe. That is deception which the NRA does. I bet the NRA could even prove there are ZERO gun deaths in America.
This is more accurate:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politifact-us-has-more-gun-deaths-than-other-large-countries/1145669

The Professor   Sun, 6 Jan 2013, 10:16am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 28

The Professor says

What other rights do you consider archaic?


Raw says

Right to hunt.
Allowing tax right offs for religious
donations.
Allowing creation to be taught even in Church.
Rights of States
(we live in one country, not one state)

So you find amendments 2, 9, and 10 from the bill of rights archaic?

What about 1, 4 and 5 which would probably have to be suppressed in order to elimnate the three you are against?

The 3rd Amendment may be archaic but lets keep it in order not to set a precedent of eliminating our constitutional rights one by one.

The Professor   Sun, 13 Jan 2013, 1:39am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 29

Raw says

Allowing tax right offs for religious donations.

Allowing creation to be taught even in Church.

So you are against the first amendment as well?

Not all churches are evil (not all) but if you allow the government to tax churches, violating the 1st amendment freedom of religion, only the evil churches will survive.

Raw   Sun, 13 Jan 2013, 1:49am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 30

The Professor says

Raw says

Allowing tax right offs for religious donations.

Allowing creation to be taught even in Church.

So you are against the first amendment as well?

Not all churches are evil (not all) but if you allow the government to tax churches, violating the 1st amendment freedom of religion, only the evil churches will survive.

Professor, we know the government as per the constitution cannot favor religion. When they allow a tax write off for donations to a church, it indirectly comes from taxpayers like me and you.
Why am I being forced to pay for a religion I do not believe in?

The Professor   Sun, 13 Jan 2013, 1:57am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 31

Raw says

Why am I being forced to pay for a religion I do not believe in?

You are not.

You too have the right to donate to a church you do believe in.

You implied that you would like to eliminate Bill of Rights numbers 2, 9, and 10, and at least parts of 1. Can you see how this would be the beginning of eliminating Rights 1,4, and 5?

Do you believe in any natural rights? Or is the government the ultimate controller of human actions?

Raw   Sun, 13 Jan 2013, 2:06am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 32

The Professor says

Raw says

Why am I being forced to pay for a religion I do not believe in?

You are not.

You too have the right to donate to a church you do believe in.

Here is what I am trying to say....
When donors to any religion get a tax write off, the treasury ends up taking in less. They make up for this by charging a higher tax rate to the rest of us. The taxpayer like me pays more in tax. I am essentially, being made to pay so that someone can build something where people can gather around and talk to invisible friends.
Please do it with your own money, not mine.
I do not want to eliminate rights. I would like to refine some of them to keep up with changing times.

The Professor   Sun, 13 Jan 2013, 4:33am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 33

Raw says

I am essentially, being made to pay so that someone can build something where people can gather around and talk to invisible friends.

You mean like the Internet?

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