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Why gun control wont really work.


By Kevin   Follow   Thu, 10 Jan 2013, 11:32am PST   4,015 views   94 comments
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I'm completely anti gun, but I've concluded that in the long run, gun control can't work.

The reason is 3d printers. I've now seen two very good proposals for how guns can be printed, and shells to go with it (ammo making still requires manual work to fill the shells)

Given that reality, I expect gun control to be about as successful as piracy control.

I think we should instead focus on making people just not want guns. Think about the PSA from childhood telling us not to smoke. Now my generation doesn't smoke.

I have zero desire to own a gun and even less to shoot somebody with one. If we could raise a generation to not want to use guns, maybe we could prevent them from killing each other. The nut jobs who are afraid of the government or just like to shoot things would still print their guns and shoot them, but most people wouldn't.

I was raised around violent movies and video games, but never saw a gun in person other than police officers until I was an adult. As a result, I only associated guns with murder and war. Maybe we could replicate that experience to kids now and keep them from viewing guns as a tool that was used for solving every day conflict.

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thomaswong.1986   Mon, 14 Jan 2013, 12:43pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 55

StillLooking says

THere is some dispute about whether this guy was in a gang.

that is why you have massive murders in places like Chicago and Oakland.

NO...
we got no gang problems !
we got no drug trafficking problems !
we got no organized crime problems !

marcus   Mon, 14 Jan 2013, 1:17pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 56

All that has to happen for "gun control to work" is for access to guns without background checks, and access to military grade guns to both significantly decrease.

Regardless of whether homemade guns or pipe bombs or whatever still can be had, the goal is only to slowly decrease the number of gun murders. This can be accomplished with gun control. Especially controlling access via secondary markets and background checks. This would include sales of homemade or 3d printed guns. MAke the penalty extremely high for anyone selling these.

(PLEASE COMPREHEND THAT I AM NOT SAYING GUN CONTROL WILL CAUSE GUN VIOLENCE TO GO TO ZERO OR ANYTHING CLOSE TO ZERO - AND I AM ALSO NOT SAYING IT WILL WORK IMMEDIATELY - IT WOULD TAKE DECADES TO SEE RESULTS)

This is not to dismiss benefits of changing the culture, or better still decreasing the wealth and income gaps, and improving education (also related to socioeconomic well being).

marcus   Mon, 14 Jan 2013, 1:52pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 57

Sane Americans (including about 3/4 of NRA members): "We're totally for sensible common sense restrictions such as background checks, and shutting down the secondary market where criminals buy their guns. We're also okay with restrictions on automatic and some semiauto type military "assault weapons."

Insane paranoid wacko response: "It's another totalitarian takeover !!We need our guns for after WWIII when it's mad max time. This is stalin and mao all over again. AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!

They're coming to take our guns oh my,
They're coming to take me away, HA HA
They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA
To the funny farm
Where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see
Those nice, young men
In their clean, white coats
And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!

JodyChunder   Mon, 14 Jan 2013, 3:04pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 58

Kevin says

I have zero desire to own a gun and even less to shoot somebody with one.

Just guessing here, but something tells me you're probably a creative person. You see a gun, and you make associations; you see a machine designed for destruction. I am not creative, but I understand.

If you lived in Victorville, I think you would feel differently. I see a well-designed, well-maintained weapon, and I see an economic means for threat mitigation; a last resort buffer between me and the abridged version of things.

JodyChunder   Mon, 14 Jan 2013, 3:05pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 59

Billybigrig says

They can have my gun when they remove it from my cold stiff hands...

I felt that way about gorilla's when they were all over the news.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/gorilla-sales-skyrocket-after-latest-gorilla-attac,30860/

tatupu70   Mon, 14 Jan 2013, 8:20pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 60

thomaswong.1986 says

do you run around with $5000 cash a week and a gun like a drug dealer ?


seems to me that there is no economic disparity to mention given
how
profitable drug dealers make .. thats why they care guns, protect their
turf / operations
and kill rival gang members...

Low level pushers actually make very little. Freakanomics has a good writeup on the pay of gangs. Regardless, if there were other opportunities available to inner city folks, gangs would not be so appealing. Economic disparity is very much to blame.

JodyChunder   Mon, 14 Jan 2013, 8:32pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 61

tatupu70 says

Freakanomics

What a couple of bozos. I think it was Levitt who made the case in a paper of his that an increase in abortion rates among blacks in the '70s was the primary reason behind a fall in violent crime in the 90s. I'd be wary of anything Levitt or Dubner had to say on any subject.

But I do agree with you about the need for more inner city opportunities to combat the allure of gangs.

Vaticanus   Mon, 14 Jan 2013, 11:17pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 62

"This is not to dismiss benefits of changing the culture"

Making something illegal does not change the culture. Look at drug and alcohol prohibition. It just establishes a new class of "criminals" and a few hard core criminals willing to resort to violence by exploiting the law abiding people and/or fighting with rival criminals.

Thedaytoday   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 12:30am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 63

Do 3D printers print gun powder?
Can 3D printers print bullets?

Peter P   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 12:38am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 64

If I have a super-duper 3D printer I won't care about printing guns.

I will create an army of world domination robots. LOL!

FortWayne   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 12:48am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 65

kentm says

Gun control seems to work quite well to reduce gun deaths in other countries.

You know, out there, in the world.

You mean like Cambodia, or Indonesia where rounding up and executing a few million politically inconvenient people was not a problem. How about other ethnic and political purges throughout history?

Call it Crazy   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 12:59am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 66

Peter P says

If I have a super-duper 3D printer I won't care about printing guns.

I will create an army of world domination robots. LOL!

That's the way to think...

Go BIG, or go home!!

zzyzzx   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 1:20am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 67

Thedaytoday says

Do 3D printers print gun powder?

Can 3D printers print bullets?

I doubt it. In fact I suspect that the only gun part that it could make anytime soon which might actually be reliable enough to use would be a high capacity clip.

leo707   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 1:44am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 68

Thedaytoday says

Do 3D printers print gun powder?

Can 3D printers print bullets?

No, but anyone with the know how to print a gun could mix up some gun powder.

Bullets could be printed as soon as there is a printer that does so in lead; baring that casting bullets is easier than making gun powder.

leo707   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 1:49am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 69

JodyChunder says

I think it was Levitt who made the case in a paper of his that an increase in abortion rates among blacks in the '70s was the primary reason behind a fall in violent crime in the 90s. I'd be wary of anything Levitt or Dubner had to say on any subject.

I don't think they were saying it was the primary reason, just a big factor in the reduction of crime. I thought they had a pretty compelling argument. The best counter argument I have seen is the recent discussion of lead poisoning:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/violent-crime-lead-poisoning-british-export

CaptainShuddup   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 4:32am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 70

Here's why guns are good.
Here's a story from my home town. It's about time someone nabs one of those bastards, there's not a day that goes by, there's not at least 2 stories how a clerk got robbed and or shot and killed. I think they should hire off duty cops only for these jobs. The crazy ones with the itchy fingers want a merit of glory but have never once fired their weapon in the line of duty.
I bet that would put a moratorium on armed robberies at convenient stores.

HOLLYWOOD, Fla. (WSVN) -- A would-be robber is dead after being shot by a store clerk at a South Florida gas station.

The shooting sometime around midnight, Tuesday, at the Exxon Mart near South State Road Seven and 52nd Street. Twelve hours later, the investigation still remains active as detectives work to piece together what led to the fatal shooting.

Investigators said two armed robbers barged into the store firing at the store clerk, forcing the clerk to return fire with his own gun. "One tried to rob the gas station, and one was shot by the clerk," said an unidentified employee.

"The clerk was armed, at which point multiple shots were exchanged between the clerk and the suspect; the suspect was struck," said Hollywood Police Sergeant Pablo Venegas.

Police said a homeless man, identified as Hasib Kuric, alerted the store clerk prior to the robbery. "He is alone," said Kuric. "He's maybe not ready. The door was open at the time."

Kuric usually stays inside a U-Haul truck parked behind the Exxon. He said that he noticed something strange going on behind the convenience store at around 11:30 p.m.

He said he watched as the two men put on hooded sweatshirts and masks moments before they rushed into the store. He quickly rushed inside to alert the clerk, a friend Kuric calls Leo. "I tell Leo just lock his door and call police, behind the building is two guys with masks."

Only seconds later, two men rushed in with guns. "Right behind them, before the clerk had called 911, the suspects entered," said Venegas. "They brandished a firearm ... He didn't even have time to call 911 coz that's how quickly it happened."

The wounded would-be robber succumbed to his injuries and died on scene. "It's sad someone died but got to make a living," said the employee.

Police said the second subject, 19-year-old Joshua Stuart, was nabbed a few blocks away in a white getaway car.

Police credit Kuric for saving the clerk's life. "I don't feel like a hero, I just feel happy because I'm still alive," Kuric said.

Other employees were shaken by events that transpired at their job. One man said, "It's kinda scary."

"I was scared," said another when she heard the news.

The store clerk will not face any charges. Stuart faces attempted armed robbery and felony homicide charges, as his accomplice died in the act.

Surveillance video captured all that transpired inside the Exxon Mart. 7News is working on obtaining that footage.

Thedaytoday   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 5:19am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (1)     Comment 71

CaptainShuddup says

Here's why guns are good.

We certainly know why they are bad.

Dan8267   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 5:58am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 72

Billybigrig says

They can have my gun when they remove it from my cold stiff hands...

Actually, they can have your gun if you carry a small bag of weed on you. So much for gun ownership being a right.

Thedaytoday   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:08am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 73

New York legislature passes tighter gun laws

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/01/15/new-york-set-to-pass-tighter-gun-laws/

The new law includes provisions that would:

Change the definition of an assault weapon as one having two “military rifle features” to one.

Ban Internet sales of assault weapons.

Make private sales of assault weapons between anyone besides family members
subject to outside background checks.

Make it a misdemeanor to own a magazine of more than 7 bullets (the previous limit was 10).

Persons owning higher ammunition magazines would have a year to sell them.

Require therapists to report to the state mentally ill patients who they believe may use guns illegally. Authorities could confiscate those patients’ weapons.

Increase sentences for gun crimes.

leo707   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:15am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 74

Thedaytoday says

Make it a misdemeanor to own a magazine of more than 7 bullets (the previous limit was 10).

That is just silly, the 10 limit was fine. You can get a S&W 327 .357 revolver that holds more than 7 shots.

Peter P   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:21am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 75

leo707 says

Thedaytoday says

Make it a misdemeanor to own a magazine of more than 7 bullets (the previous limit was 10).

That is just silly, the 10 limit was fine. You can get a S&W 327 .357 revolver that holds more than 7 shots.

They want to frustrate gun manufacturers. It has nothing to do with being sensible.

leo707   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:30am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 76

Peter P says

They want to frustrate gun manufacturers. It has nothing to do with being sensible.

I don't know....It can't be that difficult to just start making clips with lower capacities.

I think they just wanted to feel they were doing something without actually doing anything.

I would be willing to bet they settled on 7 round max because of the 1911.

leo707   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:34am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 77

Thedaytoday says

Require therapists to report to the state mentally ill patients who they believe may use guns illegally. Authorities could confiscate those patients’ weapons.

This sounds like it is the most effective law, in the group, when trying to prevent mass shootings.

They should have also required gun owners with mentally ill family members--and children for that matter--to have secure gun storage.

Peter P   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:36am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 78

leo707 says

Peter P says

They want to frustrate gun manufacturers. It has nothing to do with being sensible.

I don't know....It can't be that difficult to just start making clips with lower capacities.

I think they just wanted to feel they were doing something without actually doing anything.

I would be willing to bet they settled on 7 round max because of the 1911.

Now they need a 7-round for NY, a 10-round for CA, and larger ones for other states. Some manufacturers will just give up.

Will there be a return to single stack pistols?

leo707   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:42am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 79

Peter P says

Will there be a return to single stack pistols?

Yeah, with higher calibers, and I would not be surprised if the 1911 increases in popularity.

Peter P   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:44am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 80

Single-action semi-autos are scary. :-)

FortWayne   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:48am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (2)     Comment 81

leo707 says

They should have also required gun owners with mentally ill family members--and children for that matter--to have secure gun storage.

They should emphasize gun safety more often. Won't stop someone really determined though. But that's the cost of having violent mentally ill people in society. No free lunch there.

Thedaytoday   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:50am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 82

Peter P says

Some manufacturers will just give up.

They will not.

Peter P   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:52am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 83

Thedaytoday says

Peter P says

Some manufacturers will just give up.

They will not.

A lot of them stopped selling in CA and MA.

Quigley   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:52am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (1)     Comment 84

It's all the Chinese people's fault! Didnt they invent gun powder? Before then, humanity was peaceful and murders rarely happened. Wars were accomplished with much more humane swords, arrows, pikes, and maces. Nothing says pacifism like spreading an enemies cranial contents across a battlefield with a well aimed mace strike!
My solution: let's put 80% of the GDP into research to build a time machine. Then send Seal Team Six back to assassinate the Chinese bastard who ruined the world with his darn invention!

Peter P   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:56am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 85

If I had a time machine I would be busy trading CDS.

leo707   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 6:56am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 86

FortWayne says

They should emphasize gun safety more often.

Yep, gun safety can not be emphasized too much. Last year my sister went to the funeral of a teenage nephew (from here husbands side) who was accidentally shot by his brother. From a family of avid hunters and the kids grew up around guns.

FortWayne says

Won't stop someone really determined though.

Some years ago I had a friend who, while in a bout of severe depression, tried getting into his parents gun safe. Fortunately his was unsuccessful.

FortWayne says

But that's the cost of having violent mentally ill people in society. No free lunch there.

Yep, if only we had places and funding to lockup the dangerously mentally ill like we did in the 1950s.

FortWayne   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 7:16am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 87

leo707 says

Fortunately his was unsuccessful.

Yes, I always kept mine locked up and stored ammo in a separate location too. Kids are smart, but usually not really determined, and they give up at some point.

leo707 says

Yep, if only we had places and funding to lockup the dangerously mentally ill like we did in the 1950s.

We were supposed to build half way houses to replace those, but no one wanted them near their neighborhood so we never really did what we were supposed to do. So politicians just dance around the issue, and do everything else that they can to prolong their political careers instead of finding cures to societal ills.

leo707   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 7:22am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 88

FortWayne says

eo707 says

Fortunately his was unsuccessful.

Yes, I always kept mine locked up and stored ammo in a separate location too. Kids are smart, but usually not really determined, and they give up at some point.

Oh, he was in his late 20s when he tried. He went at the safe with a sledgehammer and power tools.

FortWayne says

We were supposed to build half way houses to replace those, but no one wanted them near their neighborhood so we never really did what we were supposed to do.

That may have fixed the homeless problem, but I don't know if it would really prevent the dangerously mentally ill from running amok. Don't most of them (the spree killers) have homes anyway?

FortWayne   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 7:28am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 89

leo707 says

Oh, he was in his late 20s when he tried. He went at the safe with a sledgehammer and power tools.

That is one impressive kid, he'll go far in life if he keeps that level of determination. I don't think our daughter ever tried, girls might be different.

leo707 says

That may have fixed the homeless problem, but I don't know if it would really prevent the dangerously mentally ill from running amok. Don't most of them (the spree killers) have homes anyway?

Good point, all these spree killers have all been living at home and on some sort of meds. But at the same time, I bet a lot more crime is committed by others. Spree killers there is only a handful I can think of.

Call it Crazy   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 7:47am PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (2)     Comment 90

leo707 says

They should have also required gun owners with mentally ill family members--and children for that matter--to have secure gun storage.

They did, that's part of the new law.

thomaswong.1986   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 1:44pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 91

Peter P says

Now they need a 7-round for NY, a 10-round for CA, and larger ones for other states. Some manufacturers will just give up.

so ... you buy two barrel.. with two 7 round clips.. 7+7 = 14...

JodyChunder   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 1:52pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 92

Thedaytoday says

Can 3D printers print bullets?

You could knock some together in your garage easily enough. Need to mix up some cordite -- nitro, guncotton, and petroleum jelly. You could even cast the brasses yourself.

deepcgi   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 2:14pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike     Comment 93

Or a South American country could just invite and legally allow weapons production factories which would receive the full support of the pro-gun lobby who wouldn't have ordinarily - if the US weren't being hostile to gun ownership at the time. We can't control drug trafficking, why would gun trafficking WITH popular support be more easily controlled.

Venezuela makes another mint.

thomaswong.1986   Tue, 15 Jan 2013, 2:17pm PST   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 94

FortWayne says

Good point, all these spree killers have all been living at home and on some sort of meds. But at the same time, I bet a lot more crime is committed by others. Spree killers there is only a handful I can think of.

Drug dealers / gang bangers go on a shooting spree everyday in big cities...
same people same gang infested corner of the city.. same time every day...

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