What's the mood at Facebook these days? Still stoked, or has the IPO taken the excitement out of things?
Any Facebook employees on here?
Mood at Facebook
By Patrick Follow Tue, 12 Feb 2013, 12:28pm 1,326 views 36 comments
In Menlo Park CA 94025
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I heard today reported on one of the Asian news sites.
That 60% of their members haven't signed on in over a month already.
Though they were nice enough to call it a Hiatus.
http://techcentral.my/news/story.aspx?file=/2013/2/6/it_news/20130206132707&sec=IT_News
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Dunno if the employees' mood might be affected by the endless vortex of litigation surrounding that particular company, but the mood among users is often depressed:
"Stanford’s psychology department says: Facebook users reliably overestimate other people’s happiness, and therefore are more depressed about their own lives – a problem plaguing women more so than men."
Also, duplicate accounts appear to be part of the business model. There are many users, but I would guess around half the reported number. And then there's the whole privacy/security cluster surrounding the "Like" feature.
Clearly though, the employees who thought of sending fake messages in users' names, based on their Like history, must have a disturbed sense of humor.
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What do you think.
* 278M shares of RSU excercised in 2012. Presuming $22 share weighted average. 6.1B banked by facebook workers when RSU's were granted for later employees.
*150M shares of options excercised at 10 cents per share, presuming $22 per share weighted average another 3.3B banked by early workers (The first 500 were granted ISO's).
128M shares of RSU outstanding, that gives 3.6B reasons not to leave.
123M shares shares of options outstanding at 85 cents a share. On top of the RSU, there is $3.3B reasons not to leave.
* So at least $10.1B already banked in 2012 alone and another $7B will be banked (based on current price)
. They'll probably grant 50M shares of RSU in 2013.
* There are currently 4619 employees as of 12/31/2012 which makes Facebook the most lucrative company as far as stock compensation per head in the world.
http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/displayfilinginfo.aspx?FilingID=9050750-315240-414793&type=sect&dcn=0001326801-13-000003
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I had lunch at Facebook last year. I wasn't all that impressed with the level of technology. I asked some pretty simple database questions and got blank looks from the employees.
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Never been a fan of facebook from get go. Personally, I think it can be a good platform of sharing but when someone one has too much time, ....
In addition, when so many businesses try to get traffic from the users, it loses the attractiveness for me. It is just me, I like a phone call or Skype or a quick lunch together if I want to know more about somebody. I don't need many friends or loved by many persons. I only need a few good and true friends. That will make my day.
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jvolstad says
That crap kills me, I'm dealing with a 3rd party software vendor, that created one of the standard timeshare management applications. We're dealing with a client that has to overwrite existing contracts, with the new owner's info when they sale, quit claim deed or WDIL. Which is the laziest incompetent thing I've ever heard of. So our nightly import process would over write owner's info in our system, if I simply used that feed to update customer contact info. The thing is, in our system a customer can have multiple contracts, where as theirs can't.
This software company is worth hundreds of millions dollars, but I've seen better excel spreadsheets that would be more effective than their operation.
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jvolstad says
Could it be Facebook is trained/instructed not to comment? I know if someone ask anything specific over lunch, the default answer is no answer, even to colleagues. Seriously, you think Facebook don't know what they are doing with database because nobody wants to answer your questions over lunch!
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jvolstad says
I don't use Facebook, but my dad does, and from what I've seen of it, Facebook is a flaming piece of crap software. It was actually an embarrassment to see how Facebook works and how poorly designed the website and features are.
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jvolstad says
This is the new Silicon Valley where the most highly hyped companies are not technology companies. Rather, they are brands. Think Facebook, eBay, etc.
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SFace says
Yes, on average, but actual practice depends on how employee stock is being distributed. I would bet that the rank and file aren't doing as well as many folks might think.
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ducsingle5313 says
That's true for any company. The fact remains it is the most lucrative in the world, especially the rank and file.
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SFace says
I'd venture a guess that Apple is actually the best place to be as a rank-and-file employee in terms of stock compensation. Apple is VERY generous with their stock awards, and reasonably good performers can double their salary with stock awards within 3-5 years there. FB employees will enjoy a 1-4 year windfall as their IPO awards vest in parts, but compensation beyond that time frame is ENTIRELY dependent in the company's performance, and investors don't like seeing the EPS getting sapped by exorbitant employee compensation without corresponding financial performance overall. Anyway, the perks that employees at FB get are a lot better than those at Apple. Free food is pretty nice.
Disclaimer: I do not work at Apple. I get my information from friends that have gone there over the last couple of years.
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ducsingle5313 says
Say, Patrick.net is a brand!
Can I cash in for the big bux now?
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jvolstad says
Or maybe you underestimate your own intelligence, and just assume everyone's baseline of knowledge is approx the same as yours. I know I do this with poker. I don't always realize how goddamn good I am at that game.
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SFace says
Unless you have data showing employee stock distribution based on grade level, and I'm guessing you don't unless you are a fairly high level HR compensation manager at Facebook, you can't say one way or another whether that is a fact.
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Google: Facebook and the Disappearing Valuation (A Fairy Tale)
Jill told me to do it.
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ducsingle5313 says
like so many business tech or not.. they use Oracle as their DB.. no mystery!
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ducsingle5313 says
thats what i like about SFace.. fuck it and say anything to make a dime....
pimping, whoring, hooking, and dont worry about the warts afterwards.
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Am guessing the mood at FB might be 170x more anxious than at AAPL, since FB's P/E is 170x higher.
Not to worry though, if you buy a share now, FB should be able to return that investment in less than 1900 years. To put that in perspective, if you loaned money during the Year of the Consulship of Atilius and Vibius (160 AD), and it took until today to get repaid, you'd be very old now, but every penny from here on out would be pure gain. Not as much as you'd make telling people how they can live 1900 years, but still something.
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bmwman91 says
for many their purchase was limited to $25,000 of stock purchases each year. ESPP...but even with 15% discount and recent declines.. ugh.. not much to write home about. The $25K limit is written into the Tax code by Congress and applies to all such companies selling stock to employees.. they didnt want to see wealth creation.
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I'm not talking about ESPPs. Those are just icing on the cake since anyone with the option can typically buy it at a discount and sell it immediately for a quick profit.
Apple is generous with its RSA's. Piles of shares given as bonuses in addition to cash performance bonuses. Many employers do this. My friends say they will be more than doubling their salary next year once they get 4 years' worth of awards vesting at once. $250k a year isn't too shabby for 27-29 year olds. Yeah they work long hours and have to deal with the Type-A corp culture there, but they sure get paid.
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thomaswong.1986 says
You're truly an idiot for a controller. Read the damn 10-K to get a breakdown of beginning grants - excersied - less forfeited + new grants for an idea of stock compensation.
As an absolute aggregate # for the past 10 years, Apple is the #1 in the world. Facebook is just more lucrative per head in 2012 - 2015.
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ducsingle5313 says
This is not a court. If you can't figure it out, it is a "you" problem.
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bmwman91 says
A family member has been working for AAPL since 2006. This individual is making in the mid $100k salary. With yearly bonus, it gets to the high $100k. I know this individual gets AAPL stocks. I believe 150 shares were granted last year and 200 or 300 shares the year before that. I can ask for the details if anyone is interested. :)
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SFace says
http://investor.apple.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-12-444068&CIK=320193
knock yourself out .. see page 66-67
Stock Option Activity
A summary of the Company’s stock option activity and related information for 2012, 2011, and 2010, is as follows:
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bmwman91 says
yes. that would be rank and file you speak of ... everyone from top to bottom.
but only upper managers and directors are getting incentive compensation which is pegged to long term performance, and there are a few of those compared to typical staffers. to work for Apple is pretty big kick for many so little enticement is needed when it comes to new hires.
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SFace says
ducsingle is right.. unless you have actual access to their stock options data.. which is unlikely.. your just puffing hype ... very very few people get such access.
we made over 400 public companies by year 2000.. does it not stand home prices would have skyrocketed many times over decades ago..
but it wasnt until the highly inflated IPO stock bubble in late 90s did people only then take notice.. it was only after 2004 did all the hype over IPOs and stock options begin their fever return.
so how are those Groupon,,, Zynga,,, and Pandora employees doing..
not so many happy faces in those companies. the media talks about these
worthless crappo employers... easy for them to understand...
But there are a few well done IPOs.. the small ones no one talks about,
the ones that deal with semiconductors, storage media and software...
the real hard stuff journalist have no interest in BS'ing.
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thomaswong.1986 says
What's your point? In fye 9/29/2012 alone, Apple,
6.3m rsu exercised. 5.3m options excercised. Based on apple share price last fiscal year, that is approximately $7 billion in compensation realized for one year. At 70k employees, and half of which includes retail. It is 100k per head. So you are saying rank and file employee don't get compensation when it is already reported $7 billion was banked last year alone?
Which makes facebook even more crazy in comparasion. 10 billion with 4k employees or 2.5million per head in 2012 alone. In fairness, 2012, was when Facebook released their liquidity convenent for the options so that was a one shot deal. But there are $7 billion more reasons to stay for Facebook.
The result is already known. The expected future result is unknown (FB stock price) but we know how much options are granted, that is known. Silicon valley is option culture of the world, particularly start-ups. Sure, if this was oracle or Intel, it may be directors, but this is facebook and/or LinkedIn which you know is a different beast. If you can't figure out the rank and file and FB are doing better than any rank and file in this world, it is a "you" problem. Why do I need HR confirmation when a little basic IQ will suffice.
Everyone knows what the expectations are except you. I have seen many options from equity edge so know exactly the ballpark at grant date at how much at sign-n and annual. I know what my range is and those I hire and allocate and those I work for. I know the difference between Pandora and Oracle. Sorry you are stuck in kindergarden thinking. As a controller, this is not a secret to you as you need to book your fas123r and every single grant is viewable to determime the amount and recognize the paid in-capital or equity windfall from the inevitable difference black scholes vs. actual.
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SFace, you are not seriously suggesting that the Rank & File employees all got $2.5M in stock, or even $1M worth, are you? Anyone that joined after the 5-1 split in 2010 sure as heck didn't, and thousands of people were hired after that date. I agree that it would have been a killer deal if you had joined prior to the pre-IPO split.
Even joining between then and the IPO probably could have landed you a nice bonus, but I am skeptical that "most" employees there became millionaires. After taxes, since they are taxed as W2 wage income when presented as RSUs, everyone gets to keep about 60% of the proceeds (and write-off losses since they were taxed at $38 per share and obviously sold lower than that). Per a friend that has been there since 2010, it vests over 4 years, so you do have to stick around to get the whole reward. Anyway, I hope for my friend's and others' sake that they are getting that $2.5M over 4 years because it looks like the hours are pretty long!
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E-man says
Hmm, what does your friend do there?
The friends of mine that are pulling $200k+ are hardware engineers that Apple poached from my employer. Apple obviously wanted them bad, because they cold-called them and convinced them to go over there. Both of them finished college in 2008-2009.
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bmwman91 says
heck no. Rank and file @ facebook > any rank and file in the world, that's it. This is probably the case in the short future until another 40 bagger start-up comes in.
The package depends on when and position. When is important because $1 facebook gets a lot more shares than $32 facebook during grant time. ISO gets a lot more shares than RSU's for the same amortization value.
positon is important because the range of sign on and annual is based on your position vs. your peers. If a director gets 10K, a manager gets 5K and their staff gets 2.5K. It's not a secret how this works. The perosn above the director can be anywhere from 25K - 100K and the exectives and boards are in the millions. 50 million was granted last year.
For example, of you joined in late 2007 as a software engineer, you probably got 50K at sign on and another 10K avergage annually or 100K shares. 100K share at $28 is 2.8M. Net of tax, it is 1.8M
If you joined in 2011, which were the bulk of their FB hire ahead of the IPO, your sign on was probably around 8K shares and 2K annual, so about 12K shares, which is worth 336K. net of tax, it is 200K. The bulk of employees already have the deposits for Sunnyvale and the FB options will roll in over the 4 years. That is why they get 40-60 offers.
And no Thomas, I don't have HR report to prove it.
The whole excercise is to give some color not a lot of people are familiar with.
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================
SFace:
"The fact remains it is the most lucrative in the world, especially the rank and file.
(a day later)
"And no Thomas, I don't have HR report to prove it."
================
Credible much? Not.
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Anyway, since nobody here ACTUALLY works at FB, let's all remember that we are just speculating. My friend that works there seems happy with his employment situation and loves what he does as far as I can tell. I don't bring up the IPO stuff with him because I feel like it would be in bad taste to do so. As far as I can tell though, the rank-and-file isn't leaving there in droves or anything. They compensate well, both in terms of money and perks, and it is still regarded as much more of a cool "hacker" environment to be a part of than Google, despite the fact that I bet Google r-a-f employees make more if you exclude IPO windfalls.
At the end of the day, it sounds like a very good place to be if you are a coder. I can certainly name worse places.
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bmwman91 says
Agreed this is all speculation and not fact. . . .
A couple of my friends left Google for Facebook, but it only lasted a few months and now they're back at Google. Their general feedback was that Google is a better work environment and there wasn't much of a difference in overall compensation. But that's only (2) mid-level management datapoints.
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Facebook really doesn't have a product. Time will be their death. It is really just a holding company to spend the money they generated via IPO. Maybe they can make that money make money, we'll see.
Their sudo product is a social media site. Oh, there are not many of them around. Duh.
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For what it's worth, in my small circles, I've never seen so many people talk about signing off-- on hiatus, or for good. Seems like on the user side, the appeal is finally waning. Anecdotal, to be sure.
So if the employees aren't depressed now, seems like they will be when the wheels come off.