How small-town American turned to shit


By Patrick   Follow   Sun, 24 Feb 2013, 4:46pm   2,210 views   58 comments
In Menlo Park CA 94025   Watch (2)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

http://kunstler.com/blog/2013/02/scale-implosion.html

Back in the day when big box retail started to explode upon the American landscape like a raging economic scrofula, I attended many a town planning board meeting where the pro and con factions faced off over the permitting hurdle. The meetings were often raucous and wrathful and almost all the time the pro forces won -- for the excellent reason that they were funded and organized by the chain stores themselves (in an early demonstration of the new axioms that money-is-speech and corporations are people, too!).      The chain stores won not only because they flung money around...

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  1. C Boy


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    19   6:30am Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    I would live in a small town if my boss allowed me to telecommute.

  2. lostand confused


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    20   7:16am Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Do you know Flextronics.. or should I say.. the contract mfg for Juniper, Cisco,
    Sun Micro , and hundreds other tech company name brands...

    Do you read or just spout off stuff. Here is my quote.

    lostand confused says

    Yup, it had nothing to do with the fact that at that time, you could hire
    someone for a dollar a day-not a dollar an hour , but a dollar a day - and then
    import the finished goods with no barrier to entry . Nowadays, the wages over
    there have gone up and with shipping costs etc, it is getting expensive there
    too.

    Oh by the way, in the article you quoted, it clearly says labor costs and not environmental gibberish you claim drove out manufacturing.

    thomaswong.1986 says

    The difference in labor costs is narrowing and local officials in America have
    been giving more financial incentives to companies setting up plants in the
    U.S.,

    Again I wonder , are you trolling or being serious-because in your day job you claim to be a number cruncher-how on earth can you make up these claims?? if you were in some other career, fine-but if that is what you do all day long-you be trolling.

  3. edvard2


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    21   9:09am Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

    Manufacturing is still a huge part of the economy in the US, Its just that automation means there are less people working in the factories. But as far as the US as a major consumer products manufacture, that disappeared a long time ago when companies like RCA, Zenith, Philco, Admiral, and 1000's of others that at one time were the world's largest electronics manufactures weren't able to compete with the lower wages in places like Japan. Now its Japanese companies that can't compete with Chinese ones. And so on.

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Our cities and towns turned to s**t because we demonized manufacturing in favor of environmental protection. therefore many lost their mfg jobs for service jobs.

    I suggest reading up about the 1969 Cuyahoga river fire in Ohio. The river was so heavily polluted that it was actually flammable. If that's the sort of country you want to live in I doubt there are many who would share that desire.

  4. FortWayne


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    22   10:22am Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike (2)  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Our cities and towns turned to s**t because we demonized manufacturing in favor of environmental protection. therefore many lost their mfg jobs for service jobs.

    Did you think the environmentalists were thinking about you, your family or your towns economic well being for decades to come ?

    There is a fine line between a benefit from a product being marketed, and dealing with billions in clean up costs and life loss.

    At some point we lived in the area near by called Simi Valley. Out here there was (and still is) an old RocketDyne factory, I think they were bought by Boeing at some point. There are many acres of land that is closed off nearby because of the pollution, there was a lot of it fenced off (still today), and many people here died of cancer which is linked to that pollution.

    And how you ask that pollution came about? Well, they used to dispose of it by simply filling barrels with their waste and blowing them up right out here. They either didn't realize that upon explosion it just goes up into the air and comes down all over the place, or maybe they didn't care. But now the area is polluted, and I'm glad they can't do it anymore, or we'd be all dying out here by now just so a few people can make their millions.

    Run a business, but don't pollute environment. We all have a right to breathe clean air, which precedes every other right and need.

  5. FortWayne


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    23   10:26am Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (1)  

    Environmental regulation didn't kill off business, labor costs did. It's cheaper to pay someone to manufacture for pennies a day, instead of paying someone livable wages, providing them with healthcare and a pension.

    That's where it went. And even if you didn't want to outsource, how can you compete with someone who can make it cheap and under cut your product? That's all it was, environmental protection was good, it allowed for cleaner farm land allowing us to produce more food. It was farmers who wanted EPA to protect their crops, not "liberals".

  6. Reality


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    24   11:00am Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (2)  

    The theory in the article is entirely backwards. The big box stores did not kill the small towns. If anything, the lower cost of living enabled by big box stores actually help small towns, especially the really big boxes that need cheap land that only exist in extra-urban towns, bringing city dwellers out to the extra-urban area to shop. Think, if all the goods suddenly became free and rained from the sky just for your asking, would the small towns die from that sudden luck or witness a massive improvement in standards of living?

    The real reason for the decline of American small towns is the massive centralization of mortgage underwriting and insurance over the past few decades. Because those massive bank and insurance institutions tend to be located in the big cities, with most staff living and operating in the city centers, and executives living in the near-suburb beltway elite towns, they essentially function as landlords (via lending money, property taxation and insurance) on all the other small towns people. Just think all the mortgage interest payment, tax payment, insurance . . . these are all monopolistic economic rent charged on the people living in small towns, taken out of their community to enrich the big money centers. In the old days before the decline, small towns people simply were not paying one third of their income on having a roof over their heads! If some of them did pay that much rent, the rent would be paid to local landlords spending in the same town creating local jobs instead of spending money in the big cities and elite suburbs exclusively.

  7. edvard2


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    25   11:11am Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (4)   Dislike (1)  

    FortWayne says

    And how you ask that pollution came about? Well, they used to dispose of it by simply filling barrels with their waste and blowing them up right out here.

    There were a LOT of instances of things that occurred like that. Look up the Hudson river and its history of PCB contamination. Its considered one of the largest superfund sites in the country. Electronics manufactures dumped many, many tons of PCBs into the river for decades and the worst part is that PCBs don't really go away. The cleanup has been monumental.

    Significant changes to material handling and classification got underway in the 70's. Everyday items that were used for decades such as Asbestos, PCBs, various dioxins, and so on were either classified or phased out. Many of those are known carcinogens. I think you rightly pointed out the huge costs associated with the cleanup and healthcare tied to improper material handling. Perhaps the proper disposal and use of harmful substances used in manufacturing is costly, but its bound to be less costly than simply dumping it into the environment.

  8. unclemat


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    26   11:40am Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    Reality says

    he theory in the article is entirely backwards.

    You are contradicting yourself. If lenders sucked out money out of small towns, so did large store chains, leaving only token wages behind.

  9. rooemoore


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    27   11:46am Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Did you think the environmentalists were thinking about you, your family or your towns economic well being for decades to come ?

    That is exactly what they were thinking about.

  10. Reality


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    28   11:48am Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    unclemat says

    Reality says

    he theory in the article is entirely backwards.

    You are contradicting yourself. If lenders sucked out money out of small towns, so did large store chains, leaving only token wages behind.

    It's orders of magnitude difference: the margins that big box stores have are much lower, and they can only outsell local stores if they offer a lower price. The big box stores were primarily making off the overseas producers under-pricing their wares (not fully accounting for environmental cost and retirement cost of the workers).

    The FIRE monopolies however are very different: they are monopolies enabled by government interventions not consumer choice. They are the arms dealers that enable bidding wars on houses (i.e. bidding up cost of living instead of bidding down cost of living like the stores do).

    The amount of money spent on mortgage, tax and insurance are far higher than whatever stuff bought at the big box stores, especially considering the mortgage, tax and insurance have nearly no cost for material whereas the stuff at big box stores have substantial cost in material regardless where it is made.

  11. FortWayne


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    29   11:51am Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (3)   Dislike  

    edvard2 says

    I think you rightly pointed out the huge costs associated with the cleanup and healthcare tied to improper material handling. Perhaps the proper disposal and use of harmful substances used in manufacturing is costly, but its bound to be less costly than simply dumping it into the environment.

    Much agreed Edward, no one really ever held polluters responsible for pollution so it made it easy for them to just pollute and pass the clean up costs onto taxpayers. I do not want that to continue, it was bad in the 70's. It's a lot better today because of the clean up.

    I think another problem is that parents today do not remind their children about this. I've seen plenty of young people in their 30's or even 20's who think that environment protection is unnecessary simply because they've never seen how bad it really gets.

  12. rufita11


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    30   12:00pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    C Boy says

    I would live in a small town if my boss allowed me to telecommute.

    The problem with this is that infrastructure (i.e., high speed internet) is not always optimal in small towns--they are getting left behind. I do telecommute, but am still stuck living where I can get the services I need to do business.

  13. unclemat


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    31   12:11pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    Reality says

    It's orders of magnitude difference: the margins that big box stores have are much lower, and they can only outsell local stores if they offer a lower price.

    I fail to see that. Say you have a local bank that keeps the mortgage on teh books, like in the "old good days". Sure, the bank supports some local jobs, all the clerks, etc. Plus may be in a better position to make business loans to local businesses. But how much of the profits from mortgages would stay in the local economy?

    I think the government sponsored industry of lending/real estate (which is a perfect scam as Patrick pointedly describes it) simply makes housing unaffordable for everyone across the board, small towns, or wealthy suburbs alike. So I would not attribute it to the demise of small towns.

    Small towns demise is the reflection of the hollowed out manufacturing (cheap imports) and modern farming that does not require as much of manual labor.

  14. edvard2


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    32   12:18pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    FortWayne says

    I think another problem is that parents today do not remind their children about this. I've seen plenty of young people in their 30's or even 20's who think that environment protection is unnecessary simply because they've never seen how bad it really gets.

    Yes. I agree. The thing is that it wasn't that long ago that workers in factories had little protection from what they were working on. For example workers in various metal plating industries where they were plating chassis for electronics with cadmium. That stuff is carcinogenic and the workers were breathing in the fumes. Workers in the shipyards were freely breathing in asbestos dust as they cut and shaped pieced for the steam pipes and steam equipment.

    Now there are regulations that put limits on occupational exposure as well as requirements for safety gear. You're allowed only a certain PPM, or parts per million dosage per day. In that way there's less of an issue where the worker becomes sick.

    To me workplace and industrial environmental regulations are important because new chemicals, manufacturing processes and materials are invented all the time and just like asbestos, which was used for over 100 years and not known to be dangerous, who knows what the result might be with any number of the new things coming out now? At least there are organizations that independently test and classify these things. Better now than to discover years later that something that got sent out into the general public turned out to be really toxic. Its a safety measure for everyone.

  15. Reality


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    33   12:32pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    unclemat says

    I fail to see that. Say you have a local bank that keeps the mortgage on teh books, like in the "old good days". Sure, the bank supports some local jobs, all the clerks, etc. Plus may be in a better position to make business loans to local businesses. But how much of the profits from mortgages would stay in the local economy?

    My exact point! Out of the $1000-2000 that a small town family typical pays in mortgage, very little stays in town. That money is also almost entirely "service," as opposed to goods that in-town manufacturing would cost a lot to make hence wouldn't be able to keep anyway even if manufacturing were in town. If manufacturing+retailing profit margin were 10%, you'd have to sell $10,000 goods to retain the same amount of money that $1000 rent becomes $1000 mortgage to some out of town bank.

    unclemat says

    I think the government sponsored industry of lending/real estate (which is a perfect scam as Patrick pointedly describes it) simply makes housing unaffordable for everyone across the board, small towns, or wealthy suburbs alike. So I would not attribute it to the demise of small towns.

    FIRE makes housing unaffordable for almost everyone, but some people do get the money. There is a net transfer of wealth across geographical locations when that is taking place. The FIRE money lords live the big cities and the elite towns.

    unclemat says

    Small towns demise is the reflection of the hollowed out manufacturing (cheap imports) and modern farming that does not require as much of manual labor.

    Small town manufacturing was never a big deal. The service industry could easily replace them if not for the fact that 1/3 of the people's income is shipped out of town by the FIRE industry and taxes.

  16. bgamall4


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    34   12:34pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    bg says

    I think it was corporations, their money and the profit lust that destroyed small towns and manufacturing. I think it was targeted and deliberate.

    While this may be true, I want people to know that you aren't me. It would be nice if you would use another handle so we don't get confused.

  17. unclemat


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    35   12:58pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Reality says

    My exact point! Out of the $1000-2000 that a small town family typical pays in mortgage, very little stays in town. That money is also almost entirely "service," as opposed to goods that in-town manufacturing would cost a lot to make hence wouldn't be able to keep anyway even if manufacturing were in town. If manufacturing+retailing profit margin were 10%, you'd have to sell $10,000 goods to retain the same amount of money that $1000 rent becomes $1000 mortgage to some out of town bank.

    So I guess the solution to prohibit mortgage securitization. I am all for it. Lender should be on the hook for their decisions and the quality of the debt should be easy to tell.

    Responsibility in business, especially big business? Whoa! That's too radical of an idea in corporate socialism system.

  18. SoftShell


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    36   1:24pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Trading manufacturing jobs for service jobs due to automation contributes mightily to the ever-growing gap between classes.

    Saving the environment versus middle class job deterioration...improved education was supposed to lift everyone...but not enough jobs the higher up you go....now degrees don't mean crap.

    New frontiers are needed.

    robertoaribas says

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Our cities and towns turned to s**t because we demonized manufacturing in favor of environmental protection. therefore many lost their mfg jobs for service jobs.

    Did you think the environmentalists were thinking about you, your family or your towns economic well being for decades to come ?

    absolutely! we should make every river and all the air poisonous!!!

    it is after all an exact trade off between destroying everything and having jobs...

    And as always, thomaswrong is always wrong!

  19. Biff Baxter


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    37   2:07pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Things were great before. Now they suck. Goddam whipper snappers.

    Why can't things be the way they used to be? It used to be that a man could get a decent wage for a hard days work. My 13 brothers and sisters used to walk to school through 20 feet of snow. And we liked it. And kids respected their elders!

    And the price of adult diapers is goddamn ridiculous.

    Biff (what the fuck does this have to do with real estate)

  20. edvard2


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    38   2:17pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Biff Baxter says

    My 13 brothers and sisters used to walk to school through 20 feet of snow. And we liked it. And kids respected their elders!

    Oh yeah? Well my 20 Brother and Sisters used to walk through 40 feet of snow, 22 miles each way, and they LOVEd it!

  21. leo707


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    39   2:18pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Biff Baxter says

    Things were great before. Now they suck. Goddam whipper snappers.

  22. The Professor


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    40   2:50pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Reality says

    In the old days before the decline, small towns people simply were not paying one third of their income on having a roof over their heads! If they did pay that much rent, the rent would be paid to local landlords spending in the same town creating local jobs instead of spending money in the big cities and elite suburbs exclusively.

    Nice analysis.

    The bottom line is more and more money, power, and control, is concentrating into the hands of a minority who don't create anything as they get their cut from one lucrative deal after another.

  23. The Professor


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    41   2:55pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Reality says

    The FIRE monopolies however are very different: they are monopolies enabled by government interventions not consumer choice. They are the arms dealers that enable bidding wars on houses (i.e. bidding up cost of living instead of bidding down cost of living like the stores do).

    Another example of the minority getting their cut as they produce nothing but added misery to everyone who must work longer hours to pay for basic housing expenses.

  24. CaptainShuddup


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    42   3:33pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    leo707 says

    Biff Baxter says

    Things were great before. Now they suck. Goddam whipper snappers.

    Leo while I usually love P&T Bullshit series they are normally spot on. I haven't seen the Good ole days episode. But I would say if they don't agree the Golden age is long gone and far behind us, then they are the ones full of Bullshit.

    While social conditions and technology may be better in many aspects. The general quality of life in America is on the decline for everyone. If you don't believe that, just look at the infighting going in Washington, all of the social activist factions are cannibalizing each other, and demanding that they be cut.

    Cut money from the old people, stop helping sick people, stop giving money to poor people, stop food stamps, cut funding for this cut funding for that.

    Cut out the social nets, and you would see, we are living in the Zombie Apocalypse. But I can order a pizza using my 'lectric shaver and touch screen mirror, though. Whoopie!

  25. Biff Baxter


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    43   5:53pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike (1)  

    KarlRoveIsScum says

    You call yourself a teacher?

    Oh no you di'int! Girl you bad.

    Biff

  26. thomaswong.1986


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    44   6:34pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    edvard2 says

    Electronics manufactures dumped many, many tons of PCBs into the river for decades and the worst part is that PCBs don't really go away. The cleanup has been monumental.

    Are you saying ALL manufactures are guilty or some were found guilty for decades past misconduct ? .. Carefully now!

    The reality is the dumping was not widespread as the media would like the public to believe..A few handfull were found guilty... but certainly not every single mfg dumped chemicals.

    However the government regulations was imposed across many industries and companies thus driving up costs even with those who did comply with safety measures decades past.

    That is why today, Texas only enforces regulations that make sense. Therefore their manufacturing and overall economy is in fact booming.

    How about recent financial regulations like Sarbanes-Oxley which impacts every publicly traded company with additional costs into the millions to comply to simple testing of their internal controls.

    SOX was imposed due to a handful of misdeeds like Enron and Tyco..

    Does it mean IBM, GE, Intel, Apple or many other thousands listed on the stock exchange were also guilty or near guilty of the same charges similar to Enron and Tyco ?

    Fact is many already had good governance , good management oversight and sound policies and procedures, to begin with and additional costs were unneeded to comply to SOX.

    Again, going over board on Govt regulations (environmental or financial) even when unneeded becomes a cost burden on companies which has an impact on small to med sized towns and cities. This is what is killing California.

  27. thomaswong.1986


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    45   6:49pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    edvard2 says

    Manufacturing is still a huge part of the economy in the US, Its just that automation means there are less people working in the factories. But as far as the US as a major consumer products manufacture, that disappeared a long time ago when companies like RCA, Zenith, Philco, Admiral, and 1000's of others that at one time were the world's largest electronics manufactures weren't able to compete with the lower wages in places like Japan. Now its Japanese companies that can't compete with Chinese ones. And so o

    Manufactures have always used automation as means of production.. no matter if its TV or Autos from Ford for the past decades since the 30s its called the industrial revolution....

    The reason we dont build TVs is that Japan had a policy dumping products onto US shores way way below their own costs to produce.. The price to retailers was below total material, overhead and labor costs.. therefore it only appeared that it was
    labor costs.. This has been national economic policy for over 4-5 decades.

    But seriously does it mean that a typical Japanese worker was also buying real cheap food and cloths.. cheap rent/housing because of limited low wages. Rice in the US was certainly cheaper than in Japan. The argument of Japanese cheap labor doesn't jive with their economic growth and rise of incomes in the 50s-80s.

    So who is taken to the Japanese model.. China!

  28. C Boy


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    46   9:08pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    SOX was imposed due to a handful of misdeeds like Enron and Tyco..

    Does it mean IBM, GE, Intel, Apple or many other thousands listed on the stock exchange were also guilty or near guilty of the same charges similar to Enron and Tyco ?

    I guess you missed the whole 9/11 back date pricing of stock options that was done by all of those companies??

  29. thomaswong.1986


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    47   9:21pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike (1)  

    C Boy says

    I guess you missed the whole 9/11 back date pricing of stock options

    that too wasnt as widely impacted.. as such you might check how many convictions occurred.

  30. Buster


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    48   10:32pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike  

    rooemoore says

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Did you think the environmentalists were thinking about you, your family or your towns economic well being for decades to come ?

    That is exactly what they were thinking about.

    To use one example to support your statement, Marin County, to my knowledge does not have a single Walmart due to public preference. It has one of the best quality of life and wealth per capita counties in the state and country and also the majority of its land mass is protected park land. Yes, the residents were thinking ahead all right. Way ahead. And not just for themselves but for others generations to come.

  31. JodyChunder


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    49   10:42pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Buster says

    To use one example to support your statement, Marin County, to my knowledge does not have a single Walmart due to public preference. It has one of the best quality of life and wealth per capita counties in the state and country and also the majority of its land mass is protected park land. Yes, the residents were thinking ahead all right. Way ahead. And not just for themselves but for others generations to come.

    If you want all-this-and-more, visit Corvallis Oregon someday.

  32. thomaswong.1986


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    50   11:12pm Mon 25 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Buster says

    It has one of the best quality of life and wealth per capita counties in the state and country and also the majority of its land mass is protected park land. Yes, the residents were thinking ahead all right. Way ahead. And not just for themselves but for others generations to come.

    therefore a place like Santa Clara County with the lowest wealth become the Hot Spot for the information revolution in the last half of the 20th Century.. creating industries, business, careers and a standard of living for many. Cause someone built dirty old factories..

    Of course Marin today is known for what ? home of old money rockers from the 60s doing coke and the "misguided Marin County hot-tuber turned Taliban"...

    So who had the biggest positive impact for the world and shaped the beginning of 21st century ?

    Nice choice you have...

  33. JodyChunder


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    51   1:03am Tue 26 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (2)   Dislike  

    If you can squirrel away a few minutes to watch this, it's a nice follow-on to this thread.

    http://billmoyers.com/content/richard-wolff-on-how-raising-the-minimum-wage-lifts-america/

  34. C Boy


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    52   12:04pm Tue 26 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    C Boy says

    I guess you missed the whole 9/11 back date pricing of stock options

    that too wasnt as widely impacted.. as such you might check how many convictions occurred.

    Nobody went to jail, as usual.

    Wall Street corruption continued unabated.

  35. finehoe


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    53   5:56pm Tue 26 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    Texas only enforces regulations that make sense

    And what do you know, the ones that don't "make sense" just happen to be the ones that have an interest group paying for lobbyists in Austin.

  36. C Boy


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    54   9:21pm Tue 26 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    Texas enforces plenty of regulations that don't make sense.

    Want to buy a car directly from GM? You can't, it's against the law. You must purchase a car from a licensed car dealer who is allowed to buy directly from GM.

    Think Walmart can call up Miller Brewing and order 1 million cases of Miller Light to sell at Sam's Club? They can't, it's illegal for a retailer to purchase beer directly from a brewery. They must purchase from a liquor whole seller that is licensed to purchase from a brewery. Luckily, there is generally only 1 or 2 wholesalers in a city who never compete on price.

    Wonder why Texas has a population of 20 million and only 28 brew pubs in the entire state? Liquor wholesalers won't purchase their beer unless the brew pub gives them a bigger margin (kick back)than Miller.

    Texas is a cesspool of good ole boys and back room payola.

  37. thomaswong.1986


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    55   10:04pm Tue 26 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    C Boy says

    Nobody went to jail, as usual.

    Wall Street corruption continued unabated.

    No that is laughable.. since grants are approved by company BOD, and calculations of Deferred Compensation is the responsibilities of the company management. Wall Street doesnt even figure into this.

    why did "back dating" happen... greedy new hires who wanted to join the hot start up after they went public with high valuations and asked (and some got) pre-ipo dated stock. No not greedy Wall Street .. it was greedy main street... the public.

  38. thomaswong.1986


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    56   10:09pm Tue 26 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    C Boy says

    Want to buy a car directly from GM? You can't, it's against the law. You must purchase a car from a licensed car dealer who is allowed to buy directly from GM.

    Thats common in all states since mfg and producers dont charge sales tax to distributors and dealers on inventory destined to consumers. To buy form mfg/producers would bypass on sales tax...

  39. thomaswong.1986


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    57   10:12pm Tue 26 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    finehoe says

    And what do you know, the ones that don't "make sense" just happen to be the ones that have an interest group paying for lobbyists in Austin.

    We call ourself.. Silicon valley.. Good luck trying to put up a Silicon Wafer production plant. But Heck.. easy to do in Arizona, NY and Texas.

    Its like McDonalds banned from making Burgers in California.

    It sure dont make sense calling ourself "Silicon" Valley anymore..

  40. C Boy


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    58   9:28am Wed 27 Feb 2013   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like   Dislike  

    thomaswong.1986 says

    C Boy says

    Want to buy a car directly from GM? You can't, it's against the law. You must purchase a car from a licensed car dealer who is allowed to buy directly from GM.

    Thats common in all states since mfg and producers dont charge sales tax to distributors and dealers on inventory destined to consumers. To buy form mfg/producers would bypass on sales tax...

    It's not about taxes since taxes can easily be collected and cars must still be registered/taxes paid in person at your county tax office. Surprisingly, you can purchase a house directly from a builder in Texas.

    It's all about guaranteeing the profits of liquor wholesalers and car dealers.

    It's even worse in Chicago. If you want to change liquor distributors you must appear before a board comprised of representatives of the liquor distributors and explain why you want to change. They vote yes or no.

    Tesla is complaining about having to set up a network of dealerships to sell cars that they have already sold.

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