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America's doctors are overpaid


By tovarichpeter   Follow   Mon, 25 Feb 2013, 9:15am PST   5,083 views   153 comments   Watch (0)   Share   Quote   Permalink   Like (1)   Dislike (1)  

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/02/american_doctors_are_overpaid_medicare_is_cheaper_than_private_insurance.html

American health care costs a lot because the prices Americans pay for health care services are very high. And hospitals charge those high prices for the same reason any other business would—because they can. It’s easy to see why a health care provider is almost uniquely well-positioned to bilk you. If you don’t get treatment, you or someone you love might die. It’s a high-pressure emotional situation that makes it extremely difficult to bargain, comparison shop, or just decide to cut back. Most of us, fortunately, get to outsource most of that bargaining to our insurance companies. Cold-blooded executives, not...

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Rin   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 4:23am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 114

Homeboy says

Rin says

Read chanakya4773's comments on the firemen, in terms of saving lives and the payscale.

Oh, I see. You acknowledge the validity of the argument when it's used by someone you agree with, but claim it's an invalid argument when I use it. Nice....

OK, so how many firemen do you know, who earn from $200K to $300K? Yes, I'm now using your argument concerning payscale.

Rin   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 4:24am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 115

chanakya4773 says

Very easy to fix it..lets create a third party which will put all these requirements for firefighters given the nature of their work.

1) 10 years over-training with 400K per year tuition ( only one school will be allowed in the whole country to train them to create "high quality" firefighters. only 100 seats will be available.)

2) Need to be 6 feet tall or more

3) should be able to jump 6 feet or more

4) Is insensitive to heat.

Now , when you are stuck in a fire in your house, the firefighter will demand 1 million dollars to save you because he had to do 1) 2) 3) and 4) and also because he is "SAVING LIVES"

you will not have any choice but to pay the million dollars.

Excellent, now you see where I'm coming from.

Homeboy   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 4:27am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 116

Rin says

Homeboy, are you a moron? You don't have to support U2. You can support your local band.

I can't tell anyone to take R-LA for type 2 diabetes w/o being charged for practicing medicine w/o a license. Can't you see the difference?

Please, point out the strawman above.

It's ALL strawman.

What are you, a fucking troll? Still going with the strawman, but you added ad hominem and misdirection for the trifecta!

Rin   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 4:31am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 117

Homeboy says

What are you, a fucking troll? Still going with the strawman, but you added ad hominem and misdirection for the trifecta!

Yah, you've completely lost it. No one's been posting strawmen. You just can't win an argument ... no examples, no line of reasoning, zippo.

Anyways, everyone's already collapsing on you.

Homeboy   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 4:35am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 118

Rin says

OK, so how many firemen do you know, who earn from $200K to $300K?

How many physicians do you know who only have a high school education?

Homeboy   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 4:36am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (2)     Comment 119

Rin says

Yah, you've completely lost it. No one's been posting strawmen. You just can't win an argument ... no examples, no line of reasoning, zippo.

Anyways, everyone's already collapsing on you.

Sure, whatever you say, troll.

Here's a song for you, strawman:

Rin   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 4:37am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 120

Homeboy says

Rin says

OK, so how many firemen do you know, who earn from $200K to $300K?

How many physicians do you know who only have a high school education?

You've already heard all the jazz about education in the above threads.

Mr Happygoluckofus   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 4:51am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 121

Quit saying Doctors earn their money.

The last time I checked we got a $1200 dollar bill just for the Doctor to tell us what we already knew and give my wife a glorified aspirin. He was in the room for a grand total of 10 minutes. After a three hour wait in the split back gown.

MMR   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 4:51am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 122

That's the spirit

Rin says

Yes, when (not if) I become a doctor, I will never get online and tell ppl that doctors are a gem of society. Instead, I'll say that unlike some (whose names I won't mention), I've done the best that I could. And if that basically turns me into an adjunct physical therapist or nutritionist then so be it. I'm sure I could survive on my earnings from the HF work for some time.

Rin   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 5:02am PST   Share   Quote   Like (3)   Dislike (1)     Comment 123

chanakya4773 says

THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN IN ANY OTHER SERVICE WHICH DOES NOT HAVE PROTECTIONISM.

For a while there, I was beginning to think that I was the only one really fired up about this topic :-)

curious2   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 6:26am PST   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 124

turtledove says

Just to clarify... With respect to doctors, what is your definition of "overpaid?" (Precisely, what is the dollar amount?)

Respectfully, I look at the issue in a different way. I never bothered much about whether bankers were overpaid until they bankrupted their banks and got bailed out by TARP/QE/ZIRP. Prior to that, their argument was the same as Meccos: they were smart and worked very hard and sacrificed with long hours, so they "deserved" all that the market would pay them. Since TARP/QE/ZIRP, I say they were overpaid and still are, because obviously all their "knowledge" and "work" didn't add up to running a bank successfully, and their "sacrifice" of long hours (that I never asked for anyway) doesn't give them a claim to government bailouts.

With Obamacare's mandatory insurance, doctors are now in the same position.

TARP bankers, muggers, and now alas doctors are overpaid because they (or your own government) put a gun to your head and demand "all your money" (or in the case of Obamacare, "all you can afford") whether you agree or not. At least muggers don't pretend to deserve it, and they are the lowest paid on the list.

Meccos has made several very defensive and aggressive posts about how if you don't like doctors you can always see a shaman. Lately the line has been blurring, e.g. Homefool's SSRIs, but that isn't the only problem. Another problem is bundling and tying, which in retail can be illegal but in medicine is common practice. The Rx mandate prohibits you from buying any medicine without first paying a doctor for permission, and most doctors don't even tell you in advance what they will charge so you can't know if it's worthwhile, and besides there are a million different prices depending on which insurance you're using, and if you don't use insurance they are required by their insurance contracts to overcharge you most of all.

Less than a century ago, doctors made house calls, stated honest prices and stuck to them, worked for their patients, and made a good living. Those doctors were not overpaid, even though of course people complain about having to pay any expense, even options like cable TV. BTW house calls are often the best general medicine, because a doctor looking at your house and the people you live with can see many clues about what's wrong with you, which helps a lot in diagnosis and the best treatment might be to look in your kitchen and tell you which foods to stop buying and what to buy instead. Dr Oz and Matthew Roizen did a great TV series on this, they said they'd saved more lives visiting people's kitchens than operating on their hearts.

Most of today's doctors work for hospital corporations, insurance companies, and/or large corporate networks. They have lost their independence, they charge outrageous fees that they don't even know let alone control, and they have a monopoly on the entire medical formulary. In Germany, where aspirin was invented, you can't even buy aspirin without an Rx. In America, you can't buy morphine, but doctors will happily prescribe you fraudulently marketed OxyContin at 20x the price. To say they are overpaid isn't so much about the numbers, in fact some life-saving doctors don't even make as much as Homefool's pushers; rather, doctors are mispaid, because the amount they make has little to do with the value of the service they provide, and the public are forced to pay whether we want them or not.

We live in an era of lemon socialism, with Fed bankers and the medical industrial complex harvesting Americans like CAFO cattle. If a mugger gets away with $1, he is overpaid. If a dermatologist makes $1 million honestly, quoting prices up front, doing good work, and building up a reputation so that movie stars seek her out, she is not overpaid. The AMA represents less than 20% of doctors, but makes $ on billing codes that nobody can understand and that will be mandatory via Obamacare, so the AMA endorsed Obamacare. In doing that, the AMA abandoned the honest doctors, and cast its lot with the TARP/ZIRP/QE muggers. Muggers are, by definition, overpaid.

CL   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 6:30am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 125

Homeboy says

There seems to be an epidemic of missing the point in this thread. Shall we review?

I'm barely in this argument, but I mentioned that only because it seems like ball players are actually paid fairly. People think they live luxurious lifestyles, and sure, some do. But the ones that do don't do so for long, unless they invest wisely. Otherwise, it's a short career with lots of physical damage for an extremely elite group of folks.

I'd rather be an Executive than a ballplayer. Executives (and the Bush administration) tend to fail upwards. And they're knees are in better shape.

MMR   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 6:50am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 126

In recent years, I thought this was a good idea. But this is something I didn't even think about.

curious2 says

BTW house calls are often the best general medicine, because a doctor looking at your house and the people you live with can see many clues about what's wrong with you, which helps a lot in diagnosis and the best treatment might be to look in your kitchen and tell you which foods to stop buying and what to buy instead. Dr Oz and Matthew Roizen did a great TV series on this, they said they'd saved more lives visiting people's kitchens than operating on their hearts.

MMR   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 6:55am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (1)     Comment 127

I may be incorrect about this but while traditionally, Emergency medicine docs didn't make the big bucks, they are doing significantly better nowadays. It's stressful, but a lot of people working in Emergency medicine like the work schedule. Many places, it is one week on/one week off.

On average, I think that ER docs are doing better than Psych docs. It is certainly more competitive to get an ER residency than a psych residency.

In places like New Jersey where there is a "shortage" of Psych docs, those guys are doing quite well by not taking insurance.

curious2 says

To say they are overpaid isn't so much about the numbers, in fact emergency doctors don't make nearly as much as Homefool's pushers; rather, doctors are mispaid, because the amount they make has little to do with the value of the service they provide, and the public are forced to pay whether we want them or not.

curious2   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 7:25am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 128

MMR says

On average, I think that ER docs are doing better than Psych docs. It is certainly more competitive to get an ER residency than a psych residency.

Thanks - I hadn't updated recently, and I see now that current numbers corroborate your opinion. This site shows current starting salaries for both critical care and psych around $200k, with psych being slightly lower:

http://www.profilesdatabase.com/resources/2011-2012-physician-salary-survey

So, I'll stop saying that emergency doctors make less than Homefool's pushers. It used to be true, but the numbers have apparently changed recently. I continue though to believe that Homefool's SSRI pushers are overpaid because we are all required to pay them even when they confer no value, e.g. the cost of his disproved SSRI coverage must be shifted onto all of us because he can't afford it on his own, nevermind that it does no good for anyone.

BTW, in terms of medical practice areas, you might want to consider sports medicine or even the military. The patients tend to be highly functional, they might need help with specific problems but they aren't generally self-destructive. I would worry about Lance Armstrong situations though, even at the teenage level kids are trying to bulk up with steroids etc. Otherwise much of current medicine consists of managing self-destructive people as profitably as possible: every complaint results in another test and every test results in another prescription, no time to listen, etc.

Homeboy   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 9:48am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (3)     Comment 129

Rin says

You've already heard all the jazz about education in the above threads.

That's your argument? Lame.

Homeboy   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 9:55am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (1)     Comment 130

CL says

I'm barely in this argument, but I mentioned that only because it seems like ball players are actually paid fairly.

Fair's got nothing to do with this, but since you brought it up, if you think $5 million a year (average NBA salary) is "fair" for someone to throw a ball around, but $200,000 (average doctor salary) isn't fair for someone to save lives, then you need to have your head examined. I would suggest seeing a doctor. ;)

CL says

People think they live luxurious lifestyles, and sure, some do. But the ones that do don't do so for long, unless they invest wisely. Otherwise, it's a short career with lots of physical damage for an extremely elite group of folks.

They make more money in a single year than most people make in their ENTIRE LIFE. Then, on top of that, they retire with a pension. If you can't survive on that amount of money, you're a complete fucking moron. What part of that don't you understand?

Homeboy   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 9:57am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike (2)     Comment 131

CaptainShuddup says

Quit saying Doctors earn their money.

The last time I checked we got a $1200 dollar bill just for the Doctor to tell us what we already knew and give my wife a glorified aspirin. He was in the room for a grand total of 10 minutes.

The doctor didn't MAKE $1200 in that 10 minutes. That's what the healthcare company BILLED you.

By the way, next year, when everyone gets insurance under ACA, it will probably cost you about $20 for the co-pay. Hmmm.... $20 or $1200. Which is better?

CaptainShuddup says

After a three hour wait in the split back gown.

Ugh - didn't need that visual.

Philistine   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 10:00am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 132

curious2 says

even at the teenage level kids are trying to bulk up with steroids etc

When I was in high school, there was a kid on the weight lifting team that doped so much steroids that he wasn't even aware of his body's own limitations anymore. Result: he snatched (or was it a clean and jerk?) 750 pounds and blew his large intestine partially out of his anus.

Homeboy   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 10:06am PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike (3)     Comment 133

Anyone notice how Rin and MMR say pretty much exactly the same things in exactly the same way?

Hmmm.....

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 10:08am PST   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 134

No doctor will ever admit they are overpaid.

Every last one of them will claim they are worth 1000x as much per session/hour/procedure.

If they got better money kicking you to death in front of your spouse and kids, they'd take it.

curious2   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 10:12am PST   Share   Quote   Like (2)   Dislike     Comment 135

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

If they got better money kicking you to death in front of your spouse and kids....

Have you seen chemotherapy? Why risk injuring yourself kicking the patient, when you can prescribe drugs and have the nurse administer them, then enjoy watching the patient puke his guts out all over the place. W said it's hard to put food on your family, but probably he never tried projectile vomiting.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 10:14am PST   Share   Quote   Like (5)   Dislike     Comment 136

This is what America is all about:

Raking in fantastic money for scribbling on paper and torturing strangers.

JodyChunder   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 10:31am PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 137

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

If they got better money kicking you to death in front of your spouse and kids, they'd take it.

Mild hip dysplasia would be the only thing keeping me from inquiring...

Rin   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 10:34am PST   Share   Quote   Like (3)   Dislike (1)     Comment 138

Homeboy says

Anyone notice how Rin and MMR say pretty much exactly the same things in exactly the same way?

Hmmm.....

I knew that that was the best that you could do. How lame.

It only indicates that your reading comprehension skills of an intelligent conversation is limited.

Ask Patrick if we have the same IPs, if you want to play Dick Tracy, you troll.

BTW, I'm done responding to you, ignore is activated.

MMR   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 12:04pm PST   Share   Quote   Like (1)   Dislike     Comment 139

I hadn't thought of the military. It's an intriguing choice Younger guys especially might be more willing to listen and most have some concept of exercise. As long as it was a job in Coastal California, I'd strongly consider it. I personally don't want to live anywhere else, even if no one is willing to offer me partnership in an insurance mill.

Sports medicine is a possibility as is endocrinology, diabetes and metabolism, with emphasis on exercise/nutrition.

Regarding the Lance Armstrong situations, I think about that stuff in passing every single day and some days more than others. It's almost as if you read my mind or something.

When you get a chance an good movie (you prob saw it but just in case). Good discussion on the latter topic. Won award at 2008 Sundance Film Festival

&list=PLDEC560256566A03A

curious2 says

BTW, in terms of medical practice areas, you might want to consider sports medicine or even the military. The patients tend to be highly functional, they might need help with specific problems but they aren't generally self-destructive. I would worry about Lance Armstrong situations though, even at the teenage level kids are trying to bulk up with steroids etc. Otherwise much of current medicine consists of managing self-destructive people as profitably as possible: every complaint results in another test and every test results in another prescription, no time to listen, etc.

MMR   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 12:05pm PST   Share   Quote   Like   Dislike     Comment 140

Thank you

Rin says

Homeboy says

Anyone notice how Rin and MMR say pretty much exactly the same things in exactly the same way?

Hmmm.....

I knew that that was the best that you could do. How lame.

It only indicates that your reading comprehension skills of an intelligent conversation is limited.

Ask Patrick if we have the same IPs, if you want to play Dick Tracy, you troll.

BTW, I'm done responding to you, ignore is activated.

elliemae   befriend   ignore   Thu, 28 Feb 2013, 12:09pm PST